Digital BW, The Print

A dealer has set up in northern Greece importing Hahnemuele, Moab, 
and some other papers.  Stocks and range are limited but I bought a 
50 sheet box of A3+ (SuperB?) Photorag Satin for Euro 282 (US$344), 
as they had no A3.

I recently printed a sunrise image of Queen Victoria at Bryce taken 
this spring on William Turner using BO that I will enter for the next 
UK print exchange.  I printed this image on my 1290 using UT2 and 
Eboni, neutral setting with PR curve. It was dreadful!  A metallic 
sheen from whichever whichway I viewed it.  QTR users seem to like 
the paper but has anyone successfully used it with UT2?  If so how 
did they do it?

I printed the image as BO and found the velvet setting for this image 
better than the others, and I am really impressed.  But how to use 
this paper for other techniques, including (sorry OT) colour?

It is so expensive to test on, so some help would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Colin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colingruk" 
<cconway@b...> wrote:
> A dealer has set up in northern Greece importing Hahnemuele, Moab, 
> and some other papers.  Stocks and range are limited but I bought a 
> 50 sheet box of A3+ (SuperB?) Photorag Satin for Euro 282 (US$344), 
> as they had no A3.
> 
> I recently printed a sunrise image of Queen Victoria at Bryce taken 
> this spring on William Turner using BO that I will enter for the 
next 
> UK print exchange.  I printed this image on my 1290 using UT2 and 
> Eboni, neutral setting with PR curve. It was dreadful!  A metallic 
> sheen from whichever whichway I viewed it.  QTR users seem to like 
> the paper but has anyone successfully used it with UT2?  If so how 
> did they do it?
> 
> I printed the image as BO and found the velvet setting for this 
image 
> better than the others, and I am really impressed.  But how to use 
> this paper for other techniques, including (sorry OT) colour?
> 
> It is so expensive to test on, so some help would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Colin

Wish I could help, but so far there is still only one dealer of this 
paper here, and I'm still going to wait for my prefered dealer to be 
allowed to sell it. I know a bunch of other people that are waiting 
for this same thing. If Hahnemuhle wants to sell this stuff, they 
really need to make it more available, I don't like to be forced to 
get any product from only one dealer because if you really have to 
have that product, they have you at a disadvantage and can charge 
whatever they want.

Jim if you read this, any word yet?

greg

I listening I was Told This week! but Until I have It in Hand cant be
Sure..I will let Everyone Know OK!!

Cheers


Jim Doyle


J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
114 Old Orchard Rd
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
AOL IM: Brokerup99

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
dfaprinting
  Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 8:47 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Expensive mistake? Photorag Satin


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colingruk"
  <cconway@b...> wrote:
  > A dealer has set up in northern Greece importing Hahnemuele, Moab,
  > and some other papers.  Stocks and range are limited but I bought a
  > 50 sheet box of A3+ (SuperB?) Photorag Satin for Euro 282 (US$344),
  > as they had no A3.
  >
  > I recently printed a sunrise image of Queen Victoria at Bryce taken
  > this spring on William Turner using BO that I will enter for the
  next
  > UK print exchange.  I printed this image on my 1290 using UT2 and
  > Eboni, neutral setting with PR curve. It was dreadful!  A metallic
  > sheen from whichever whichway I viewed it.  QTR users seem to like
  > the paper but has anyone successfully used it with UT2?  If so how
  > did they do it?
  >
  > I printed the image as BO and found the velvet setting for this
  image
  > better than the others, and I am really impressed.  But how to use
  > this paper for other techniques, including (sorry OT) colour?
  >
  > It is so expensive to test on, so some help would be appreciated.
  >
  > Cheers,
  >
  > Colin

  Wish I could help, but so far there is still only one dealer of this
  paper here, and I'm still going to wait for my prefered dealer to be
  allowed to sell it. I know a bunch of other people that are waiting
  for this same thing. If Hahnemuhle wants to sell this stuff, they
  really need to make it more available, I don't like to be forced to
  get any product from only one dealer because if you really have to
  have that product, they have you at a disadvantage and can charge
  whatever they want.

  Jim if you read this, any word yet?




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

They also really need to make a smooth version, in addition to making it more widely 
available.  I currently use PhotoRag Satin almost exclusively for B&W work, but I'd really love a 
smooth non-textured version, as the texture can become obtrusive depending on the subject 
and angle of viewing light.  I've written both to Lexjet and Hahn. to lobby for a smooth 
version and (of course) received no response.  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting" <dfaprinting@y...> 
wrote:

 If Hahnemuhle wants to sell this stuff, they 

> really need to make it more available, I don't like to be forced to 
> get any product from only one dealer because if you really have to 
> have that product, they have you at a disadvantage and can charge 
> whatever they want.
> 
> Jim if you read this, any word yet?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle" 
<jdoyle1713@c...> wrote:
> greg
> 
> I listening I was Told This week! but Until I have It in Hand cant 
be
> Sure..I will let Everyone Know OK!!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> Jim Doyle
> 
> 
> J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
> 114 Old Orchard Rd
> Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
> 856-424-8660
> http://www.shadesofpaper.com
> AOL IM: Brokerup99
> 


Thanks for the update!

Colin-

Unfortunately my experience with UC ink is the same...both with QTR 
and Image Print. I mentioned this to the folks at lexjet who 
responded with a bunch of emails from people who love it. I told them 
they were wrong and they asked for some samples of the prints I made. 
When they got them, they emailed me and asked me what I didn't like 
about them !!!! ????

Too bad...the surface feels great and can deal with handling much 
better than HPR, I'm waiting to see what comes from lexjet. They 
indicated they were working with Image Print and "others" to try to 
tweak the profiles.

cheers,

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colingruk" 
<cconway@b...> wrote:
> A dealer has set up in northern Greece importing Hahnemuele, Moab, 
> and some other papers.  Stocks and range are limited but I bought a 
> 50 sheet box of A3+ (SuperB?) Photorag Satin for Euro 282 (US$344), 
> as they had no A3.
> 
> I recently printed a sunrise image of Queen Victoria at Bryce taken 
> this spring on William Turner using BO that I will enter for the 
next 
> UK print exchange.  I printed this image on my 1290 using UT2 and 
> Eboni, neutral setting with PR curve. It was dreadful!  A metallic 
> sheen from whichever whichway I viewed it.  QTR users seem to like 
> the paper but has anyone successfully used it with UT2?  If so how 
> did they do it?
> 
> I printed the image as BO and found the velvet setting for this 
image 

> better than the others, and I am really impressed.  But how to use 
> this paper for other techniques, including (sorry OT) colour?
> 
> It is so expensive to test on, so some help would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Colin

Collin, Tom;

Have either of yountried glop?  Collin, Paul Roark has an 
experimental 1280 cart with UT-2 inks but glop in the yellow 
position, which printer are you using?

Carl Schofield has some of this paper, if he has glop still set up 
in his 4000 perhaps he can tell us if it works to reduce the metalic 
sheen?

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell" 
<tomoc@y...> wrote:
> Colin-
> 
> Unfortunately my experience with UC ink is the same...both with 
QTR 
> and Image Print. I mentioned this to the folks at lexjet who 
> responded with a bunch of emails from people who love it. I told 
them 
> they were wrong and they asked for some samples of the prints I 
made. 
> When they got them, they emailed me and asked me what I didn't 
like 
> about them !!!! ????
> 
> Too bad...the surface feels great and can deal with handling much 
> better than HPR, I'm waiting to see what comes from lexjet. They 
> indicated they were working with Image Print and "others" to try 
to 
> tweak the profiles.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Tom O'Connell
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colingruk" 
> <cconway@b...> wrote:
> > A dealer has set up in northern Greece importing Hahnemuele, 
Moab, 
> > and some other papers.  Stocks and range are limited but I 
bought a 
> > 50 sheet box of A3+ (SuperB?) Photorag Satin for Euro 282 
(US$344), 
> > as they had no A3.
> > 
> > I recently printed a sunrise image of Queen Victoria at Bryce 
taken 
> > this spring on William Turner using BO that I will enter for the 
> next 
> > UK print exchange.  I printed this image on my 1290 using UT2 
and 
> > Eboni, neutral setting with PR curve. It was dreadful!  A 
metallic 
> > sheen from whichever whichway I viewed it.  QTR users seem to 
like 
> > the paper but has anyone successfully used it with UT2?  If so 
how 
> > did they do it?
> > 
> > I printed the image as BO and found the velvet setting for this 
> image 
> > better than the others, and I am really impressed.  But how to 
use 

> > this paper for other techniques, including (sorry OT) colour?
> > 
> > It is so expensive to test on, so some help would be appreciated.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Colin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell" 
<tomoc@y...> wrote:
> Colin-
> 
> Unfortunately my experience with UC ink is the same...both with QTR 
> and Image Print. I mentioned this to the folks at lexjet who 
> responded with a bunch of emails from people who love it. I told 
them 
> they were wrong and they asked for some samples of the prints I 
made. 
> When they got them, they emailed me and asked me what I didn't like 
> about them !!!! ????
> 
> Too bad...the surface feels great and can deal with handling much 
> better than HPR, I'm waiting to see what comes from lexjet. They 
> indicated they were working with Image Print and "others" to try to 
> tweak the profiles.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Tom O'Connell
> 
Tom,

The differential sheen is so marked that it is readily apparent even 
looking straight on.  It is just horrible.  How anyone cannot see it 
straight off is beyond me.  I have posted two copies of the image to 
the dealer, one on PR and the other on PR Satin for his comments, 
both using UT2.  I have made no observations of my own.

I will print a step wedge using BO (Eboni)at the weekend if I have 
the time and hope to confirm my favourable impression of the result.  
The paper finish is, I think, lovely albeit with a warm tone, but it 
would be a shame if I could only use it for BO.

Is there anyone else out there having success or failure?

Colin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> Collin, Tom;
> 
> Have either of yountried glop?  Collin, Paul Roark has an 
> experimental 1280 cart with UT-2 inks but glop in the yellow 
> position, which printer are you using?
> 
> Carl Schofield has some of this paper, if he has glop still set up 
> in his 4000 perhaps he can tell us if it works to reduce the
metalic 
> sheen?
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
Steve, 

If you ever go through Thessaloniki, please let me know.  I am sure 
some of my Greek friends would love to put on an exhibition of your 
work.

But to answer your question: in short no! I have spent so much of my 
time and money with sprays, laquers, varnishes, mayer rods, foam 
brushes and on that I have stopped trying to fiddle with the
products.  
If I don't like the result I give up on it: after a day at work I
want 
to get results.  (I am using an Epson 1290 with 1280 drivers for the 
UT2.) Until recently I have had to import everything.  I even carried 
my Epson 2100 here from the UK in a suitcase and every trip to the
UK, 
or my wife visiting, has suitcases with EAM (EEM) or some other paper 
and weird loooks from Olympic Airways ground staff at the scales.  I
am 
now limited to 30Kg but at least they haven't charged me excess 
baggage yet.

I like PR (for some reason I don't seem to have the flakig problems 
that others do.. shhhhhh shouldna have said that) and William Turner 
for my IR and BO printing. (Incidentally, I use the yellow position
for 
toned UT2 prints.)  But I thought PR satin would give close to that 
finish that a dried FB print has, without the curl!  I have yet to 
decide, but I think it will for BO, but why are the toned inks giving 
this differential metallic sheen?

Reading Clayton's Great Paper Chase, that was unavailable yesterday, 
Moab Kayenta may be available here and, depending on price, that may
be 
more convenient than EAM for proofing.

Thanks for enquiring, and my apologies for ceasing to be adventurous.

Colin

Collin;


Can't say I blame you for being tired of experimenting; I'm doing 
progressively less myself, only what I absolutely need to. Time to 
get on with it and make some prints...

> I have spent so much of my 
> time and money with sprays, laquers, varnishes, mayer rods, foam 
> brushes and on that I have stopped trying to fiddle with the
> products.  
> If I don't like the result I give up on it: after a day at work I
> want 
> to get results.  (I am using an Epson 1290 with 1280 drivers for 
the 
> UT2.) Until recently I have had to import everything.  

Seems you're paying a bit much locally though; So there's a dealer 
in Salonica now? I would expect you can get better prices in Athens 
(as usual) if you can get there 

> and weird loooks from Olympic Airways ground staff at the scales.

They're just looking for a bribe, the pigs..
 
>But I thought PR satin would give close to that 
> finish that a dried FB print has, without the curl!  I have yet to 
> decide, but I think it will for BO, but why are the toned inks 
giving 
> this differential metallic sheen?

The closest I've come so far to ADFB is the Epson premium semmi-
matte with a liberal coating of glop; but between the glop 
application and needing to use PK, my new roll of semi-matte is 
sitting untouched in the corner. And that's another problem; the 
paper is only available in 17 x 22 sheets (pricey) or rolls, and the 
roll version curls badly, so you have to deal with that too. 
> 
> Reading Clayton's Great Paper Chase, that was unavailable 
yesterday, 
> Moab Kayenta may be available here and, depending on price, that 
may
> be 
> more convenient than EAM for proofing. 

Kayenta is a very nice looking paper, though noticeably whiter than 
EEM; I'm sure it will be a bit more expensive, but it probably 
doesn't yellow like EEM, so perhaps you can keep and use the test 
prints

Best Regards,

Steve

Glop will reduce the sheen a little but it won't eliminate it.  I  
think the Satin print I sent to Clayton awhile back was printed with  
modified UT7 inks and Glop from my 2200.  The UC inks (MIS  
equivalent) that I use in the 4000 with QTR produce prints with  
minimal sheen that I do not find objectionable at all.  I use this  
paper mostly for warm/sepia tone prints and in this case I really  
like the sheen, which is quite subtle and it adds some depth to the  
print.

Carl

On Aug 1, 2005, at 10:59 PM, Steven Karafyllakis wrote:

> Collin, Tom;
>
> Have either of yountried glop?  Collin, Paul Roark has an
> experimental 1280 cart with UT-2 inks but glop in the yellow
> position, which printer are you using?
>
> Carl Schofield has some of this paper, if he has glop still set up
> in his 4000 perhaps he can tell us if it works to reduce the metalic
> sheen?
>
> Steve Karafyllakis
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell"
> <tomoc@y...> wrote:
>
>> Colin-
>>
>> Unfortunately my experience with UC ink is the same...both with
>>
> QTR
>
>> and Image Print. I mentioned this to the folks at lexjet who
>> responded with a bunch of emails from people who love it. I told
>>
> them
>
>> they were wrong and they asked for some samples of the prints I
>>
> made.
>
>> When they got them, they emailed me and asked me what I didn't
>>
> like
>
>> about them !!!! ????
>>
>> Too bad...the surface feels great and can deal with handling much
>> better than HPR, I'm waiting to see what comes from lexjet. They
>> indicated they were working with Image Print and "others" to try
>>
> to
>
>> tweak the profiles.
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Tom O'Connell
>>
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colingruk"
>> <cconway@b...> wrote:
>>
>>> A dealer has set up in northern Greece importing Hahnemuele,
>>>
> Moab,
>
>>> and some other papers.  Stocks and range are limited but I
>>>
> bought a
>
>>> 50 sheet box of A3+ (SuperB?) Photorag Satin for Euro 282
>>>
> (US$344),
>
>>> as they had no A3.
>>>
>>> I recently printed a sunrise image of Queen Victoria at Bryce
>>>
> taken
>
>>> this spring on William Turner using BO that I will enter for the
>>>
>> next
>>
>>> UK print exchange.  I printed this image on my 1290 using UT2
>>>
> and
>
>>> Eboni, neutral setting with PR curve. It was dreadful!  A
>>>
> metallic
>
>>> sheen from whichever whichway I viewed it.  QTR users seem to
>>>
> like
>
>>> the paper but has anyone successfully used it with UT2?  If so
>>>
> how
>
>>> did they do it?
>>>
>>> I printed the image as BO and found the velvet setting for this
>>>
>> image
>>
>>> better than the others, and I am really impressed.  But how to
>>>
> use
>
>>> this paper for other techniques, including (sorry OT) colour?
>>>
>>> It is so expensive to test on, so some help would be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Colin
>>>

Colin, if you main output is on Photo Rag, you might consider using 
Hahnemuhle Artproof for the proofing. Not as cheap as EEM, but at 
least you will have the same color/tone with about the same dmax as 
Photo Rag.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting" 
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
> Colin, if you main output is on Photo Rag, you might consider using 
> Hahnemuhle Artproof for the proofing. Not as cheap as EEM, but at 
> least you will have the same color/tone with about the same dmax as 
> Photo Rag.

Sorry for not replying earlier.  The H importer does not bring H 
Artproof but is going to bring in Moasb Kayenta at about the same price 
as EAM in the UK.  I'm going to try that for proofing and maybe more.

Colin

Hello Colin,

I've been following your "adventures" here with the Satin paper, been
wanting to say hi.


>...is going to bring in Moab Kayenta at about the same price 
>as EAM in the UK.  I'm going to try that for proofing and maybe more.

Even though it's colder, Kayenta has contrast and density very close
to EEM.  If it's the same price, being 2-sided should make it even
more economical for proofs.  

I like the paper a lot, although a bit on the thin side (205 gsm). 
I've been using it for a scrapbook project for my church and it works
well because it matches the pages in color and it's thinness
(flexibility) helps it endure the page turning, especially when the
kids get ahold of it <g>.  The prints are glued down with Avery Glue
Stick (acid free, "photo safe", like a lipstick tube), and it's
holding up real well so far (almost 4 months now).  Kayenta has a real
nice look to it, lot of depth, excellent dmax, but it's cold Brrr.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Colin,
> 
> I've been following your "adventures" here with the Satin paper, 
been
> wanting to say hi.
> 
> 
> >...is going to bring in Moab Kayenta at about the same price 
> >as EAM in the UK.  I'm going to try that for proofing and maybe 
more.
> 
> Even though it's colder, Kayenta has contrast and density very close
> to EEM.  If it's the same price, being 2-sided should make it even
> more economical for proofs.  
> 
> I like the paper a lot, although a bit on the thin side (205 gsm). 
> I've been using it for a scrapbook project for my church and it 
works
> well because it matches the pages in color and it's thinness
> (flexibility) helps it endure the page turning, especially when the
> kids get ahold of it <g>.  The prints are glued down with Avery Glue
> Stick (acid free, "photo safe", like a lipstick tube), and it's
> holding up real well so far (almost 4 months now).  Kayenta has a 
real
> nice look to it, lot of depth, excellent dmax, but it's cold Brrr.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hi, Clayton,

I am glad you responded.  It is a long while since I received your 
print and I don't know if you ever received mine (The African nude 
with the pigtail) done on an Epson 2100  which I said looked green.  
I think it was Ernst Dinkla who, some months later, said that Epson 
2100 users had to use the Epson 2200 driver.

These senile meanderings are to point out that I like the BO output 
on PR Satin with Eboni.  Warmish but I don't know where on 
the "Clayton Paper Scale".  The wrap-around luminosity of those 
hoodos at Bryce looks good in BO - I think I could spend the rest of 
my days in S. Utah and N. Arizona!  The paper has a feel and quality 
about it that appeals to me, with the caveat of course, that it is 
printed black only.  I can send you some sheets if they qualify as 
matt paper, but maybe Jim Doyle is closer!

I would regard the paper as "unfit for the purpose intended" and, if 
in the UK (or Germany) pursue the matter....but I'm in Greece!  Nuff 
said.

Although at the end of this note, my thanks to you for your efforts 
and insights are not a PS, but a real thank you.


Colin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colingruk" 
<cconway@b...> wrote:
> A dealer has set up in northern Greece importing Hahnemuele, Moab, 
> and some other papers.  Stocks and range are limited but I bought a 
> 50 sheet box of A3+ (SuperB?) Photorag Satin for Euro 282 (US$344), 
> as they had no A3.
> 
> I recently printed a sunrise image of Queen Victoria at Bryce taken 
> this spring on William Turner using BO that I will enter for the 
next 
> UK print exchange.  I printed this image on my 1290 using UT2 and 
> Eboni, neutral setting with PR curve. It was dreadful!  A metallic 
> sheen from whichever whichway I viewed it.  QTR users seem to like 
> the paper but has anyone successfully used it with UT2?  If so how 
> did they do it?
> 
> I printed the image as BO and found the velvet setting for this 
image 
> better than the others, and I am really impressed.  But how to use 
> this paper for other techniques, including (sorry OT) colour?
> 
> It is so expensive to test on, so some help would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Colin

A update:  my dealer referred to Hahnemuele and this was the reply -
 "We do not test our products with third part ink manufacturers. We 
only warranty results using original, printer manufacturer inks like 
Epson, Canon etc. We do not have any report for such a problem, 
worldwide, by doing that".


Has anyone tried this paper with UT2 inks, or was it me or is 
everyone scared off?

Colin