Digital BW, The Print

What "Black Only" mode are you talking about. I don't see it on my 2400.

Gary

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Douglas meeuwsen" <lipshurt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 10:19 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] 2400 in "black" mode....good



hello...I just made my first 2400 print in "black mode"...I though this
would be like "Black only" on the 1280 or 2200, and show the dots
more....don't think so.

Under my 8x loupe, the dots are exactly the same on two identical
images. The difference seems to be that the "Black" setting does use
the colored inks. It looks like it does use all three blacks though.
The print looks marvelous. It seems to be totally "neutral" to me. Keep
in mind that I think that the "neutral" setting in ABW mode is a teensy
bit green. I like this mode, and probably will use this when making
neutral prints. I was using the PK cart on premium semi-gloss. I still
have not tried the matte black, but I will be making some Velvet fine
art prints soon. So The 2400 does have Black only mode, and it does not
involve "dots". Pretty cool...Doug M




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YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown" 
<baffin@c...> wrote:
Gary-  

Douglas and I have been talking about this, because I have no BO mode 
in my driver either.  I am using Windows and the MK cartridge and we 
are suspecting that one of these is the issue (Douglas is using the 
Mac driver with PK).  What is your setup?  Incidentally I just 
updated my driver to the most recent, posted on the Epson site on 
8/22 which looks functionally the same as the earlier one (no BO).

Walt


> What "Black Only" mode are you talking about. I don't see it on my 
2400.
> 
> Gary
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Douglas meeuwsen" <lipshurt@m...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 10:19 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] 2400 in "black" mode....good
> 
> 
> 
> hello...I just made my first 2400 print in "black mode"...I though 
this
> would be like "Black only" on the 1280 or 2200, and show the dots
> more....don't think so.
> 
> Under my 8x loupe, the dots are exactly the same on two identical
> images. The difference seems to be that the "Black" setting does use
> the colored inks. It looks like it does use all three blacks though.
> The print looks marvelous. It seems to be totally "neutral" to me. 
Keep
> in mind that I think that the "neutral" setting in ABW mode is a 
teensy
> bit green. I like this mode, and probably will use this when making
> neutral prints. I was using the PK cart on premium semi-gloss. I 
still
> have not tried the matte black, but I will be making some Velvet 
fine
> art prints soon. So The 2400 does have Black only mode, and it does 
not
> involve "dots". Pretty cool...Doug M
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as 
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to 
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same 
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
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B&W 
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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and 
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PRINT 
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
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> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
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> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
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> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
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OTHER 

> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi

I'm using a Mac with Pk and have just checked my driver to find this 
BO mode. Under 'Print Settings' - 'Color' there are three modes, 
Color, Advanced B&W Photo and Black. I guess he is talking about this 
mode Black. Under Color Management the only settings that can then be 
changed are gamma, brightness and contrast.

Peter.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" 
<odets@c...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown" 
> <baffin@c...> wrote:
> Gary-  
> 
> Douglas and I have been talking about this, because I have no BO 
mode 
> in my driver either.  I am using Windows and the MK cartridge and 
we 
> are suspecting that one of these is the issue (Douglas is using the 
> Mac driver with PK).  What is your setup?  Incidentally I just 
> updated my driver to the most recent, posted on the Epson site on 
> 8/22 which looks functionally the same as the earlier one (no BO).
> 
> Walt
> 
> 
> > What "Black Only" mode are you talking about. I don't see it on 
my 
> 2400.
> > 
> > Gary
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Douglas meeuwsen" <lipshurt@m...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 10:19 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] 2400 in "black" mode....good
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > hello...I just made my first 2400 print in "black mode"...I 
though 
> this
> > would be like "Black only" on the 1280 or 2200, and show the dots
> > more....don't think so.
> > 
> > Under my 8x loupe, the dots are exactly the same on two identical
> > images. The difference seems to be that the "Black" setting does 
use
> > the colored inks. It looks like it does use all three blacks 
though.
> > The print looks marvelous. It seems to be totally "neutral" to 
me. 
> Keep
> > in mind that I think that the "neutral" setting in ABW mode is a 
> teensy
> > bit green. I like this mode, and probably will use this when 
making
> > neutral prints. I was using the PK cart on premium semi-gloss. I 
> still
> > have not tried the matte black, but I will be making some Velvet 
> fine
> > art prints soon. So The 2400 does have Black only mode, and it 
does 
> not
> > involve "dots". Pretty cool...Doug M
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as 
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
> wish to 
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same 
> > page.
> > 
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messages 
> to keep 
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. 
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
the 
> > membership without notice.
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digital 
> B&W 
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
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> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group 
> Owner and 
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> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE 
> PRINT 
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
> AND 
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU 
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> EXEMPLARY 
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS, 
> > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
> THE  "OWNER" AND 
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN 
ADVISED 

> OF THE 
> > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
> INABILITY 
> > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> ACCESS TO OR 
> > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
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> > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
> OTHER 
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi

OK Just printed two prints on EPSG, one using Black mode and the 
other using ABW mode with my Ilford default settings of tone 'dark' 
and +10H/-5V. Printer space for both was Same As Source. The prints 
need to dry and daylight has all but gone here but looking at the 
prints, my first impression is that the Black mode print has a green 
cast to it, the adjusted ABW mode print looks more neutral. A very 
quick test but I think I will stick to ABW mode adjusted for my taste 
and a custom grey ICC profile.

Peter.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers" 
<PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
> Hi
> 
> I'm using a Mac with Pk and have just checked my driver to find 
this 
> BO mode. Under 'Print Settings' - 'Color' there are three modes, 
> Color, Advanced B&W Photo and Black. I guess he is talking about 
this 
> mode Black. Under Color Management the only settings that can then 
be 
> changed are gamma, brightness and contrast.
> 
> Peter.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" 
> <odets@c...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown" 
> > <baffin@c...> wrote:
> > Gary-  
> > 
> > Douglas and I have been talking about this, because I have no BO 
> mode 
> > in my driver either.  I am using Windows and the MK cartridge and 
> we 
> > are suspecting that one of these is the issue (Douglas is using 
the 
> > Mac driver with PK).  What is your setup?  Incidentally I just 
> > updated my driver to the most recent, posted on the Epson site on 
> > 8/22 which looks functionally the same as the earlier one (no BO).
> > 
> > Walt
> > 
> > 
> > > What "Black Only" mode are you talking about. I don't see it on 
> my 
> > 2400.
> > > 
> > > Gary
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Douglas meeuwsen" <lipshurt@m...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 10:19 PM
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] 2400 in "black" mode....good
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > hello...I just made my first 2400 print in "black mode"...I 
> though 
> > this
> > > would be like "Black only" on the 1280 or 2200, and show the 
dots
> > > more....don't think so.
> > > 
> > > Under my 8x loupe, the dots are exactly the same on two 
identical
> > > images. The difference seems to be that the "Black" setting 
does 
> use
> > > the colored inks. It looks like it does use all three blacks 
> though.
> > > The print looks marvelous. It seems to be totally "neutral" to 
> me. 
> > Keep
> > > in mind that I think that the "neutral" setting in ABW mode is 
a 
> > teensy
> > > bit green. I like this mode, and probably will use this when 
> making
> > > neutral prints. I was using the PK cart on premium semi-gloss. 
I 
> > still
> > > have not tried the matte black, but I will be making some 
Velvet 
> > fine
> > > art prints soon. So The 2400 does have Black only mode, and it 
> does 
> > not
> > > involve "dots". Pretty cool...Doug M
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > resources as 
> > > they are often being updated.
> > > 
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > 
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
> > wish to 
> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting 
> > this same 
> > > page.
> > > 
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages 
> > to keep 
> > > them short.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> > flames. 
> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the 
> > > membership without notice.
> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
> digital 
> > B&W 
> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> > removed from 
> > > the membership.
> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
rules 
> > and 
> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
> group 
> > Owner and 
> > > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
Files 
> > section:
> > > 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > > 
> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE 
> > PRINT 
> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" 
> > AND 
> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> > LIABLE TO YOU 
> > > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> > EXEMPLARY 
> > > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
> PROFITS, 
> > > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
> > THE  "OWNER" AND 
> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN 
> ADVISED 
> > OF THE 
> > > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR 
THE 
> > INABILITY 
> > > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> > ACCESS TO OR 
> > > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
> > CONDUCT OF ANY 
> > > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY 

> > OTHER 
> > > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links

This Black mode on the R2400 is NO Black Only mode. As far as I can see 
the R2400 does not allow for BO printing using the Epson driver. The 
Black mode uses more than just one black ink. Pity.

Peter.

> From: bwbonkers
> 
> This Black mode on the R2400 is NO Black Only mode. As far as I can see 
> the R2400 does not allow for BO printing using the Epson driver. The 
> Black mode uses more than just one black ink. Pity.

Why is that a pity?

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

I guess some people get really addicted to those dots......I am looking 
at my print using "black" and on premium semigloss, it definitley has a 
less greenish tint than the ABW neutral setting. Keep in mind that the 
ABW neutral setting only has the faintest hint of greenish tint, and 
that is only under certain kinds of window light. I will bet that some 
people would say that the print is warm. My idea of neutral is some 
people's idea of warm. I have only had time to make one print so far, 
so everything may change, but I like it better that ABW neutral. My 
favorite setting for ABW is +4 vert/+4Horiz  with the shadow slider at 
-10 and the highlight slider at +5, just to give an indication of what 
I like. I also have a nice setting that looks like lenswork. that is 
+15/+15 and -15/+10  for the sliders........
On Aug 6, 2005, at 3:53 PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:

> > From: bwbonkers
>  >
>  > This Black mode on the R2400 is NO Black Only mode. As far as I can 
> see
>  > the R2400 does not allow for BO printing using the Epson driver. The
>  > Black mode uses more than just one black ink. Pity.
>
>  Why is that a pity?
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here is a 100% section of a 2400 "Black" print scanned at 2400 dpi.   
Print was made on Ilford Smooth Pearl using latest Mac driver with  
driver set for black ink.  Looks like it uses all of the color inks,  
particularly in the highlights.  Print looks neutral and exhibits no  
metamerism, despite the obvious presence of yellow ink.

http://homepage.mac.com/scho/2400K.jpg

On Aug 6, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Douglas meeuwsen wrote:

> I guess some people get really addicted to those dots......I am  
> looking
> at my print using "black" and on premium semigloss, it definitley  
> has a
> less greenish tint than the ABW neutral setting. Keep in mind that the
> ABW neutral setting only has the faintest hint of greenish tint, and
> that is only under certain kinds of window light. I will bet that some
> people would say that the print is warm. My idea of neutral is some
> people's idea of warm. I have only had time to make one print so far,
> so everything may change, but I like it better that ABW neutral. My
> favorite setting for ABW is +4 vert/+4Horiz  with the shadow slider at
> -10 and the highlight slider at +5, just to give an indication of what
> I like. I also have a nice setting that looks like lenswork. that is
> +15/+15 and -15/+10  for the sliders........
> On Aug 6, 2005, at 3:53 PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
>
>
>>> From: bwbonkers
>>>
>>> This Black mode on the R2400 is NO Black Only mode. As far as I can
>>>
>> see
>>
>>> the R2400 does not allow for BO printing using the Epson driver. The
>>> Black mode uses more than just one black ink. Pity.
>>>
>>
>>  Why is that a pity?
-

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think I am seeing colored dots under my loupe, but my loupe also 
causes massive purple fringing. Suffice it to say that I am not 
convinced that the "black" mode does not use colored inks. I sent an 
email to epson tech support asking about this. I should hear back from 
them monday i guess....Doug M

Wow...what timing. Carl answers my question the exact same time I sent 
it off to epson tech support. Now I wonder why the "black" mode is even 
there...Doug M
On Aug 6, 2005, at 4:56 PM, Carl Schofield wrote:

> Here is a 100% section of a 2400 "Black" print scanned at 2400 dpi.  
>  Print was made on Ilford Smooth Pearl using latest Mac driver with 
>  driver set for black ink.  Looks like it uses all of the color inks, 
>  particularly in the highlights.  Print looks neutral and exhibits no 
>  metamerism, despite the obvious presence of yellow ink.
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/2400K.jpg
>
>  On Aug 6, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Douglas meeuwsen wrote:
>
>  > I guess some people get really addicted to those dots......I am 
>  > looking
>  > at my print using "black" and on premium semigloss, it definitley 
>  > has a
>  > less greenish tint than the ABW neutral setting. Keep in mind that 
> the
>  > ABW neutral setting only has the faintest hint of greenish tint, and
>  > that is only under certain kinds of window light. I will bet that 
> some
>  > people would say that the print is warm. My idea of neutral is some
>  > people's idea of warm. I have only had time to make one print so 
> far,
>  > so everything may change, but I like it better that ABW neutral. My
>  > favorite setting for ABW is +4 vert/+4Horiz  with the shadow slider 
> at
>  > -10 and the highlight slider at +5, just to give an indication of 
> what
>  > I like. I also have a nice setting that looks like lenswork. that is
>  > +15/+15 and -15/+10  for the sliders........
>  > On Aug 6, 2005, at 3:53 PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  >>> From: bwbonkers
>  >>>
>  >>> This Black mode on the R2400 is NO Black Only mode. As far as I 
> can
>  >>>
>  >> see
>  >>
>  >>> the R2400 does not allow for BO printing using the Epson driver. 
> The
>  >>> Black mode uses more than just one black ink. Pity.
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >>  Why is that a pity?
>  -
>
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here are the driver settings for the "black" print:
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/K.jpg
Beyond me why Epson would even label this setting "Black".  With the  
2200 or 4000 drivers these identical driver settings would use ONLY  
black ink.

On Aug 6, 2005, at 8:02 PM, Douglas meeuwsen wrote:

> Wow...what timing. Carl answers my question the exact same time I sent
> it off to epson tech support. Now I wonder why the "black" mode is  
> even
> there...Doug M
> On Aug 6, 2005, at 4:56 PM, Carl Schofield wrote:
>
>
>> Here is a 100% section of a 2400 "Black" print scanned at 2400  
>> dpi. Â
>>  Print was made on Ilford Smooth Pearl using latest Mac driver withÂ
>>  driver set for black ink.  Looks like it uses all of the color  
>> inks,Â
>>  particularly in the highlights.  Print looks neutral and  
>> exhibits noÂ
>>  metamerism, despite the obvious presence of yellow ink.
>>
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/2400K.jpg
>>
>>  On Aug 6, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Douglas meeuwsen wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I guess some people get really addicted to those dots......I amÂ
>>> looking
>>> at my print using "black" and on premium semigloss, it definitleyÂ
>>> has a
>>> less greenish tint than the ABW neutral setting. Keep in mind that
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> ABW neutral setting only has the faintest hint of greenish tint, and
>>> that is only under certain kinds of window light. I will bet that
>>>
>> some
>>
>>> people would say that the print is warm. My idea of neutral is some
>>> people's idea of warm. I have only had time to make one print so
>>>
>> far,
>>
>>> so everything may change, but I like it better that ABW neutral. My
>>> favorite setting for ABW is +4 vert/+4Horiz  with the shadow slider
>>>
>> at
>>
>>> -10 and the highlight slider at +5, just to give an indication of
>>>
>> what
>>
>>> I like. I also have a nice setting that looks like lenswork. that is
>>> +15/+15 and -15/+10Â  for the sliders........
>>> On Aug 6, 2005, at 3:53 PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> From: bwbonkers
>>>>>
>>>>> This Black mode on the R2400 is NO Black Only mode. As far as I
>>>>>
>> can
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> see
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the R2400 does not allow for BO printing using the Epson driver.
>>>>>
>> The
>>
>>>>> Black mode uses more than just one black ink. Pity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Â  Why is that a pity?
>>>>

I'm using  the windows driver with MK.

Gary

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "wwodets" <odets@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 2400 in "black" mode....good


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown"
<baffin@c...> wrote:
Gary-

Douglas and I have been talking about this, because I have no BO mode
in my driver either.  I am using Windows and the MK cartridge and we
are suspecting that one of these is the issue (Douglas is using the
Mac driver with PK).  What is your setup?  Incidentally I just
updated my driver to the most recent, posted on the Epson site on
8/22 which looks functionally the same as the earlier one (no BO).

Walt


> What "Black Only" mode are you talking about. I don't see it on my
2400.
>
> Gary
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Douglas meeuwsen" <lipshurt@m...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 10:19 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] 2400 in "black" mode....good
>
>
>
> hello...I just made my first 2400 print in "black mode"...I though
this
> would be like "Black only" on the 1280 or 2200, and show the dots
> more....don't think so.
>
> Under my 8x loupe, the dots are exactly the same on two identical
> images. The difference seems to be that the "Black" setting does use
> the colored inks. It looks like it does use all three blacks though.
> The print looks marvelous. It seems to be totally "neutral" to me.
Keep
> in mind that I think that the "neutral" setting in ABW mode is a
teensy
> bit green. I like this mode, and probably will use this when making
> neutral prints. I was using the PK cart on premium semi-gloss. I
still
> have not tried the matte black, but I will be making some Velvet
fine
> art prints soon. So The 2400 does have Black only mode, and it does
not
> involve "dots". Pretty cool...Doug M
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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> Yahoo! Groups Links





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
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printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
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THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
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Yahoo! Groups Links

Carl-

I've examined several ABW (not "BO") prints under a 7-35X Nikon zoom 
microscope and I've never seen anything like the amount of color in 
your scan.  What I've seen is perhaps 10% of that amount of color and 
that little bit only in the extreme, very thin highlights.  What you 
show there is completely unlike anything I've seen from this printer 
in ABW.  Perhaps the ABW actually uses less color than the "black" 
mode or perhaps these prints are all over the board.  It is amazing 
how obtuse Epson is about communicating about these products.

Walt




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
> Here is a 100% section of a 2400 "Black" print scanned at 2400 
dpi.   
> Print was made on Ilford Smooth Pearl using latest Mac driver with  
> driver set for black ink.  Looks like it uses all of the color 
inks,  
> particularly in the highlights.  Print looks neutral and exhibits 
no  
> metamerism, despite the obvious presence of yellow ink.
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/2400K.jpg
> 
> On Aug 6, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Douglas meeuwsen wrote:
> 
> > I guess some people get really addicted to those dots......I am  
> > looking
> > at my print using "black" and on premium semigloss, it 
definitley  
> > has a
> > less greenish tint than the ABW neutral setting. Keep in mind 
that the
> > ABW neutral setting only has the faintest hint of greenish tint, 
and
> > that is only under certain kinds of window light. I will bet that 
some
> > people would say that the print is warm. My idea of neutral is 
some
> > people's idea of warm. I have only had time to make one print so 
far,
> > so everything may change, but I like it better that ABW neutral. 
My
> > favorite setting for ABW is +4 vert/+4Horiz  with the shadow 
slider at
> > -10 and the highlight slider at +5, just to give an indication of 
what
> > I like. I also have a nice setting that looks like lenswork. that 
is
> > +15/+15 and -15/+10  for the sliders........
> > On Aug 6, 2005, at 3:53 PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
> >
> >
> >>> From: bwbonkers
> >>>
> >>> This Black mode on the R2400 is NO Black Only mode. As far as I 
can
> >>>
> >> see
> >>
> >>> the R2400 does not allow for BO printing using the Epson 
driver. The

> >>> Black mode uses more than just one black ink. Pity.
> >>>
> >>
> >>  Why is that a pity?
> -
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter, Carl, & Walt,

AFAIK there is no black-only mode in my Windows Epson driver - this must be 
just a Mac thing.

As for the AdvancedB&W mode, there is no need to peer at prints looking for 
dots of different colors. Just print a patch to file and decode the file and 
you can see exactly how many dots of each color are used in that patch. I 
posted the results for my R2400 in AdvancedB&W mode using the default 
Neutral/Darker setting on Premium Glossy. In case you didn't see them, here 
is a summary again:-


"Looking at the printer files (with help from Roy Harrington) of 21 neutral 
patches (from 0-255) it seems that the three blacks are the main inks used 
throughout the range.  The PK ink is
used from 0-90, the lk ink from 0-170, and the llk ink from 20-250. No inks 
are used at 255 unless you check the Highlight Point Shift box, as I 
explained in an earlier post.

The neutral toning is done with light magenta and light cyan througout the
whole range 0-250, and yellow is also used from 5-250. Amounts of toning are
variable, but at 210 for example (where only the smallest dots are used for
each ink) 72% of the ink was llk, 16% lm, 10% lc, and 1% Y. At 250, the llk
was 82%, with 9% lm, 7.5% lc, and 1.5% Y.

Further down the scale, I can't directly compare the % of the different inks
because the blacks, and occasionally the lm, use medium drops as well as
fine, and I don't know the exact size ration of the three sizes of drops
(does anyone else?), whereas the others usually use just fine drops."


I have now found some figures for the sizes of the different drops, so I 
could work out the exact proportions of dots for all the 21 patches, but I'm 
not sure its worth the effort!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "wwodets" <odets@...>


Carl-

I've examined several ABW (not "BO") prints under a 7-35X Nikon zoom
microscope and I've never seen anything like the amount of color in
your scan.  What I've seen is perhaps 10% of that amount of color and
that little bit only in the extreme, very thin highlights.  What you
show there is completely unlike anything I've seen from this printer
in ABW.  Perhaps the ABW actually uses less color than the "black"
mode or perhaps these prints are all over the board.  It is amazing
how obtuse Epson is about communicating about these products.

Carl-
Thanks.  I missed this the first time around and they are much more 
in line with my visual impression.  Because I find these ABW prints 
very convincing visually, I assumed the only issue was whether the 
color content would contribute to instability in the print.  A second 
thought- it might be possible for someone so inclined to find that 
spot on the toning "circle" (in the ABW driver) where the selected 
tone matched the black ink colors and no color need be added.  That 
assumes that the three blacks are the same color.  To me, visually, 
the LK looks warmer than the other two.  In case, I don't think it 
has been established that these amounts of UC inks are actually a 
stability problem.
Walt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" 
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Peter, Carl, & Walt,
> 
> AFAIK there is no black-only mode in my Windows Epson driver - this 
must be 
> just a Mac thing.
> 
> As for the AdvancedB&W mode, there is no need to peer at prints 
looking for 
> dots of different colors. Just print a patch to file and decode the 
file and 
> you can see exactly how many dots of each color are used in that 
patch. I 
> posted the results for my R2400 in AdvancedB&W mode using the 
default 
> Neutral/Darker setting on Premium Glossy. In case you didn't see 
them, here 
> is a summary again:-
> 
> 
> "Looking at the printer files (with help from Roy Harrington) of 21 
neutral 
> patches (from 0-255) it seems that the three blacks are the main 
inks used 
> throughout the range.  The PK ink is
> used from 0-90, the lk ink from 0-170, and the llk ink from 20-250. 
No inks 
> are used at 255 unless you check the Highlight Point Shift box, as 
I 
> explained in an earlier post.
> 
> The neutral toning is done with light magenta and light cyan 
througout the
> whole range 0-250, and yellow is also used from 5-250. Amounts of 
toning are
> variable, but at 210 for example (where only the smallest dots are 
used for
> each ink) 72% of the ink was llk, 16% lm, 10% lc, and 1% Y. At 250, 
the llk
> was 82%, with 9% lm, 7.5% lc, and 1.5% Y.
> 
> Further down the scale, I can't directly compare the % of the 
different inks
> because the blacks, and occasionally the lm, use medium drops as 
well as
> fine, and I don't know the exact size ration of the three sizes of 
drops
> (does anyone else?), whereas the others usually use just fine 
drops."
> 
> 
> I have now found some figures for the sizes of the different drops, 
so I 
> could work out the exact proportions of dots for all the 21 
patches, but I'm 
> not sure its worth the effort!
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "wwodets" <odets@c...>
> 
> 
> Carl-
> 
> I've examined several ABW (not "BO") prints under a 7-35X Nikon zoom
> microscope and I've never seen anything like the amount of color in
> your scan.  What I've seen is perhaps 10% of that amount of color 
and

> that little bit only in the extreme, very thin highlights.  What you
> show there is completely unlike anything I've seen from this printer
> in ABW.  Perhaps the ABW actually uses less color than the "black"
> mode or perhaps these prints are all over the board.  It is amazing
> how obtuse Epson is about communicating about these products.

> From: Bob Frost
>
> As for the AdvancedB&W mode, there is no need to peer at prints
> looking for
> dots of different colors. Just print a patch to file and decode
> the file and
> you can see exactly how many dots of each color are used in that patch.

So how do you count the dots? Do you have some software that does that? I've
been trying to find a current ESC/P manual, so that I could write my own,
but I'd much rather find the job already done.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" 
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: Bob Frost
> >
> > As for the AdvancedB&W mode, there is no need to peer at prints
> > looking for
> > dots of different colors. Just print a patch to file and decode
> > the file and
> > you can see exactly how many dots of each color are used in that patch.
> 
> So how do you count the dots? Do you have some software that does that? I've
> been trying to find a current ESC/P manual, so that I could write my own,
> but I'd much rather find the job already done.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

Hi Paul,

The ESC/P info is on www.epsondevelopers.com
But I have a pretty good program that Bob is using.  If you are on Windows
its quite easy to Print to File and decode it.  You do need to use the
Command Line interface though.  You have to understand the format
somewhat to figure it all out.  I'll send you a copy if you like.

Roy

> From: Roy Harrington
>
> The ESC/P info is on www.epsondevelopers.com
> But I have a pretty good program that Bob is using.  If you are on Windows
> its quite easy to Print to File and decode it.  You do need to use the
> Command Line interface though.  You have to understand the format
> somewhat to figure it all out.  I'll send you a copy if you like.

Thanks for that link. Googling a while back turned up nothing but very old
info.

I'd love a copy of the program. As a programmer, I'm no stranger to command
line stuff. If it's not enormous, you could just e-mail it to me. Thanks
again.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

here is some drama...Before I knew for sure that thye "black"setting 
used colored inks,
I sent this question to epson tech support:

I was just wondering why my driver seems to have a "black" mode in 
addition
to the advanced B/W mode. The "black" mode makes nice photos, and 
appears
to use no colored inks at all. Is this correct? Why does this option not
appear in my freinds windows driver? The printer is truly remarkable by 
the
way. Doug M

and here is the reply:

<<Thank you for contacting the Epson Connection.

You are absolutely correct that this option is not offered in the 
Windows
driver and unfortunately I can't offer an explanation for that.  You are
correct that the black setting would be black ink only.

If you require further assistance with this particular issue, please 
ensure
all of our previous correspondence is contained in your reply, so we can
better track the history of this issue.

If you have a different technical support issue, please submit another
E-form via our website (http://www.epson.com), and we will respond in a
timely manner.  Thank you again for contacting Epson.>>>

So that person is confused too, or we all are!...Doug M

This was discussed some time ago.  Epson have confirmed to me that there is
no "Black Only" and that "Black" will use all the inks unless plain paper is
selected.  I doubt you will see "black Only" on any new printer from Epson.

> From: Douglas meeuwsen <lipshurt@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 17:00:50 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 2400 in "black" mode - NOT BO mode
> 
> I think I am seeing colored dots under my loupe, but my loupe also
> causes massive purple fringing. Suffice it to say that I am not
> convinced that the "black" mode does not use colored inks. I sent an
> email to epson tech support asking about this. I should hear back from
> them monday i guess....Doug M

Because it is a simple greyscale rather than colour or a greyscale function
with "advanced" functionality.  They are not referring to the inks used but
rather the output in lay terms.

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 20:10:17 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 2400 in "black" mode - NOT BO mode
> 
> Here are the driver settings for the "black" print:
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/K.jpg
> Beyond me why Epson would even label this setting "Black".  With the
> 2200 or 4000 drivers these identical driver settings would use ONLY
> black ink.