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R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Clayton Jones

Hello All,

Around the beginning of the summer my 2200 began getting more
persnickity about paper feeding.  Last Thursday night when I was
feeding it some paper it made a loud Bang! (a mechanical sound like
heavy metal meeting an immoveable object) and the paper stopped.  On
several subsequent tries the paper would go in a few inches and stop.
Only after turning it off & on did it accept paper again, and
occasionally made a Clunk sound when feeding.  I got the impression
something in there was wearing out.  I've had it almost two years and
have run a lot of paper through it.

I got it at Comp USA with their 2-yr replacement warranty, and it was
set to expire on Sept 16th.  What to do.  Rather than risk losing my
investment, I decided to apply the warranty toward a new printer. 
They gave me the full replacement value of $745 (699 + sales tax that
I paid 2 yrs ago) on a store gift card which I applied to a 2400
($849 + tax).  When the dust settled, I paid about $220 for the 2400
and another 2-yr warranty.

So, like it or not, my trusty 2200 is gone and here sits a shiny new
2400.  It's just 2 days now and I have mixed feelings about it, but am
hopeful.

What I like:

- Fast
- Quiet
- smooth prints


What I don't like:

- Just the general principle of using color inks.

- Cost!  Man, those inks are dear at $15 per cart, and this thing uses
a LOT of ink.  Hopefully some refillable carts and 3p inks will
alleviate that.

- Being dependent on profiles supplied by someone else

- Paper.  The wide range of papers giving different tones and "looks"
that I've been used to with Eboni BO has been, at least for the time
being, severely restricted.  The only really acceptable results I've
gotten so far have been on Velvet Fine Art with the VFA paper setting.
It is the only one that has produced a print that 

1) doesn't look colorized (the ABW neutral 0/0 setting produces a very
pretty slightly warm tone that for the most part shows no hint of
color (in daylight there is a bit of green, but under tungsten and my
wide spectrum fluorescents it's fine).  I can even go a hair cooler to
-1/-1 without any obvious degradation, but at -2/-2 it begins to lose
some dmax and begins blocking up the dark zones.  So there is just a
tiny zone of acceptance.

2) has surprisingly good luminance for a full ink print

3) has dmax approaching that of Eboni BO

4) Doesn't block up the dark zones too badly (it does a tiny bit, but
is manageable with an adjustment curve).  

Everything else I've tried so far (various papers with various paper
and ABW settings) has failed to some degree in all four of these
categories.  It seems obvious of course that really good profiles are
needed and VFA being an Epson paper with a specific setting for it
ought to do well (although I couldn't get a satisfactory print on
EEM).  So anyway I will look forward to trying other profiles for
different papers as they are available.


Where Does That Leave me?

Well, at least I'm not dead in the water.  For the time being I can
make at least one kind of acceptable print on VFA.  But I really miss
the wide range of paper options I had before.  I also miss the BO
look, which while weak on some prints, is really handsome on others,
plus all the other advantages.  If possible, I would like to have the
option of making BO or smooth prints, as needed.

When I'm working on prints I use a lot of paper and ink, which will be
prohibitive with this printer.  So for proofing I bought an R200 (was
on sale for $79) and will get some refillable carts for Eboni.  Steve
Karafyllakis has one and I ran a bunch of BO prints on it on Saturday
and I think it will do fine for this.  BO is very economical, and I
now know that my images, worked up previously for BO printing, are
printing fine on the 2400 (with VFA).  So I think it will be fine as a
proofing machine and will reserve the 2400 for final prints.  


Where To Go From Here?  I look forward to 

1) Getting some 3p inks, especially Eboni, in here and seeing how they
do.

2) Trying QTR and seeing what kind of BO I can get from it (I have
hopes for this small drop size)

3) With QTR, continuing my quest for an Eboni+LK solution, which I
still think will be the best compromise of all the above issues.

Ultimately, if possible, I'd like to get away from using color inks. 
That's it for now. 


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Scott McLoughlin

Wow, I hope you can get BO up and running on it soon using
QTR.

Otherwise, your wonderful "Paperchase" paper reviews will slowly
dwindle to just VFA :-)

Scott

Clayton Jones wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hello All,
>
> Around the beginning of the summer my 2200 began getting more
> persnickity about paper feeding.  Last Thursday night when I was
> feeding it some paper it made a loud Bang! (a mechanical sound like
> heavy metal meeting an immoveable object) and the paper stopped.  On
> several subsequent tries the paper would go in a few inches and stop.
> Only after turning it off & on did it accept paper again, and
> occasionally made a Clunk sound when feeding.  I got the impression
> something in there was wearing out.  I've had it almost two years and
> have run a lot of paper through it.
>
> I got it at Comp USA with their 2-yr replacement warranty, and it was
> set to expire on Sept 16th.  What to do.  Rather than risk losing my
> investment, I decided to apply the warranty toward a new printer.
> They gave me the full replacement value of $745 (699 + sales tax that
> I paid 2 yrs ago) on a store gift card which I applied to a 2400
> ($849 + tax).  When the dust settled, I paid about $220 for the 2400
> and another 2-yr warranty.
>
> So, like it or not, my trusty 2200 is gone and here sits a shiny new
> 2400.  It's just 2 days now and I have mixed feelings about it, but am
> hopeful.
>
> What I like:
>
> - Fast
> - Quiet
> - smooth prints
>
>
> What I don't like:
>
> - Just the general principle of using color inks.
>
> - Cost!  Man, those inks are dear at $15 per cart, and this thing uses
> a LOT of ink.  Hopefully some refillable carts and 3p inks will
> alleviate that.
>
> - Being dependent on profiles supplied by someone else
>
> - Paper.  The wide range of papers giving different tones and "looks"
> that I've been used to with Eboni BO has been, at least for the time
> being, severely restricted.  The only really acceptable results I've
> gotten so far have been on Velvet Fine Art with the VFA paper setting.
> It is the only one that has produced a print that
>
> 1) doesn't look colorized (the ABW neutral 0/0 setting produces a very
> pretty slightly warm tone that for the most part shows no hint of
> color (in daylight there is a bit of green, but under tungsten and my
> wide spectrum fluorescents it's fine).  I can even go a hair cooler to
> -1/-1 without any obvious degradation, but at -2/-2 it begins to lose
> some dmax and begins blocking up the dark zones.  So there is just a
> tiny zone of acceptance.
>
> 2) has surprisingly good luminance for a full ink print
>
> 3) has dmax approaching that of Eboni BO
>
> 4) Doesn't block up the dark zones too badly (it does a tiny bit, but
> is manageable with an adjustment curve). 
>
> Everything else I've tried so far (various papers with various paper
> and ABW settings) has failed to some degree in all four of these
> categories.  It seems obvious of course that really good profiles are
> needed and VFA being an Epson paper with a specific setting for it
> ought to do well (although I couldn't get a satisfactory print on
> EEM).  So anyway I will look forward to trying other profiles for
> different papers as they are available.
>
>
> Where Does That Leave me?
>
> Well, at least I'm not dead in the water.  For the time being I can
> make at least one kind of acceptable print on VFA.  But I really miss
> the wide range of paper options I had before.  I also miss the BO
> look, which while weak on some prints, is really handsome on others,
> plus all the other advantages.  If possible, I would like to have the
> option of making BO or smooth prints, as needed.
>
> When I'm working on prints I use a lot of paper and ink, which will be
> prohibitive with this printer.  So for proofing I bought an R200 (was
> on sale for $79) and will get some refillable carts for Eboni.  Steve
> Karafyllakis has one and I ran a bunch of BO prints on it on Saturday
> and I think it will do fine for this.  BO is very economical, and I
> now know that my images, worked up previously for BO printing, are
> printing fine on the 2400 (with VFA).  So I think it will be fine as a
> proofing machine and will reserve the 2400 for final prints. 
>
>
> Where To Go From Here?  I look forward to
>
> 1) Getting some 3p inks, especially Eboni, in here and seeing how they
> do.
>
> 2) Trying QTR and seeing what kind of BO I can get from it (I have
> hopes for this small drop size)
>
> 3) With QTR, continuing my quest for an Eboni+LK solution, which I
> still think will be the best compromise of all the above issues.
>
> Ultimately, if possible, I'd like to get away from using color inks.
> That's it for now.
>
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>

Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Tony Bonanno

Wow Clayton,

Sounds like a lot is changing in your shop.  Just as you were about to
finalize a BO curve for QTR with your 2200, you instead find yourself
with a 2400 and a whole new set of challenges.  Let's hope you get on
top of this new animal soon.  I certainly agree about the ink
cartridges   for these newer machines... Geesh, the cost is a major
downside.

Speaking of ink, I just ordered a matte Pantone cartridge for the 4000
to test out for BO printing.  I'll run a cleaning cartridge through
the machine, make some prints BO on EEM and let you know what the
Pantone matte looks like compared to Eboni.

Cheers,

Tony

Re: [Digital BW] R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Richard Sintchak

Hello Clayton,

My 2200 has been getting more and more troublesome in feeding papers
as well lately. I've had a similar "clunk" noise before, especially
when feeding in small papers for some reason (like 4x6).  As you know
I too have been very pleased with my BO prints on my 2200 and have
used QTR from time to time especially for the sepia look.  But the
2400 has had me intrigued.  Now that you have one I will watch your
testing and experimenting with interest as I think a 2400 is on the
horizon for me as well....

Richard

Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by bwbonkers

Hi

Sorry to hear the demise of your 2200 but I'm sure as time passes the 
2400 will be a great replacement. Ink costs are an issue though. Paul 
mentioned that MIS C86 carts will fit the 2400. I'm tempted to buy a 
set. Now until MIS come up with an ink set, could K3 4800 carts be used 
as an ink supply. I have asked this before, but how easy is it to get 
ink out of these 110/220 carts. This would make a big difference to ink 
costs. Would this be a temporary practical solution to reduce costs.

Peter.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Steve Kale

Peter

When you buy one and try it be sure to let us know...

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@...>

>I have asked this before, but how easy is it to get
> ink out of these 110/220 carts. This would make a big difference to ink
> costs.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Steve Kale

Actually I can help a little as I just finished a 4800 110 ml cartridge.  If
you peel the label off (easily done), the back of the cartridge can easily
be taken off with a small screwdriver or something - it just clips on with 8
clips.  Once the back is off you can access the foil bag inside (it just
lies there and is easily removed.  It has a poppet valve at one end.  I
would assume you could easily cut the corner off the bag (or manipulate the
poppet valve) to get the ink out - or simply suck it out of the corner of
the bag with a syringe.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:37:37 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400
> 
> Peter
> 
> When you buy one and try it be sure to let us know...
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
>> From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@...>
> 
>> I have asked this before, but how easy is it to get
>> ink out of these 110/220 carts. This would make a big difference to ink
>> costs.

Re: [Digital BW] R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Steve Kale

Hmmm... 1K with a 2K machine and now 2K with a 3K machine...Is a pattern
emerging here?  ;-)  Seriously, enjoy the new printer.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 03:08:29 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> Around the beginning of the summer my 2200 began getting more
> persnickity about paper feeding.  Last Thursday night when I was
> feeding it some paper it made a loud Bang! (a mechanical sound like
> heavy metal meeting an immoveable object) and the paper stopped.  On
> several subsequent tries the paper would go in a few inches and stop.
> Only after turning it off & on did it accept paper again, and
> occasionally made a Clunk sound when feeding.  I got the impression
> something in there was wearing out.  I've had it almost two years and
> have run a lot of paper through it.
> 
> I got it at Comp USA with their 2-yr replacement warranty, and it was
> set to expire on Sept 16th.  What to do.  Rather than risk losing my
> investment, I decided to apply the warranty toward a new printer.
> They gave me the full replacement value of $745 (699 + sales tax that
> I paid 2 yrs ago) on a store gift card which I applied to a 2400
> ($849 + tax).  When the dust settled, I paid about $220 for the 2400
> and another 2-yr warranty.
> 
> So, like it or not, my trusty 2200 is gone and here sits a shiny new
> 2400.  It's just 2 days now and I have mixed feelings about it, but am
> hopeful.
> 
> What I like:
> 
> - Fast
> - Quiet
> - smooth prints
> 
> 
> What I don't like:
> 
> - Just the general principle of using color inks.
> 
> - Cost!  Man, those inks are dear at $15 per cart, and this thing uses
> a LOT of ink.  Hopefully some refillable carts and 3p inks will
> alleviate that.
> 
> - Being dependent on profiles supplied by someone else
> 
> - Paper.  The wide range of papers giving different tones and "looks"
> that I've been used to with Eboni BO has been, at least for the time
> being, severely restricted.  The only really acceptable results I've
> gotten so far have been on Velvet Fine Art with the VFA paper setting.
> It is the only one that has produced a print that
> 
> 1) doesn't look colorized (the ABW neutral 0/0 setting produces a very
> pretty slightly warm tone that for the most part shows no hint of
> color (in daylight there is a bit of green, but under tungsten and my
> wide spectrum fluorescents it's fine).  I can even go a hair cooler to
> -1/-1 without any obvious degradation, but at -2/-2 it begins to lose
> some dmax and begins blocking up the dark zones.  So there is just a
> tiny zone of acceptance.
> 
> 2) has surprisingly good luminance for a full ink print
> 
> 3) has dmax approaching that of Eboni BO
> 
> 4) Doesn't block up the dark zones too badly (it does a tiny bit, but
> is manageable with an adjustment curve).
> 
> Everything else I've tried so far (various papers with various paper
> and ABW settings) has failed to some degree in all four of these
> categories.  It seems obvious of course that really good profiles are
> needed and VFA being an Epson paper with a specific setting for it
> ought to do well (although I couldn't get a satisfactory print on
> EEM).  So anyway I will look forward to trying other profiles for
> different papers as they are available.
> 
> 
> Where Does That Leave me?
> 
> Well, at least I'm not dead in the water.  For the time being I can
> make at least one kind of acceptable print on VFA.  But I really miss
> the wide range of paper options I had before.  I also miss the BO
> look, which while weak on some prints, is really handsome on others,
> plus all the other advantages.  If possible, I would like to have the
> option of making BO or smooth prints, as needed.
> 
> When I'm working on prints I use a lot of paper and ink, which will be
> prohibitive with this printer.  So for proofing I bought an R200 (was
> on sale for $79) and will get some refillable carts for Eboni.  Steve
> Karafyllakis has one and I ran a bunch of BO prints on it on Saturday
> and I think it will do fine for this.  BO is very economical, and I
> now know that my images, worked up previously for BO printing, are
> printing fine on the 2400 (with VFA).  So I think it will be fine as a
> proofing machine and will reserve the 2400 for final prints.
> 
> 
> Where To Go From Here?  I look forward to
> 
> 1) Getting some 3p inks, especially Eboni, in here and seeing how they
> do.
> 
> 2) Trying QTR and seeing what kind of BO I can get from it (I have
> hopes for this small drop size)
> 
> 3) With QTR, continuing my quest for an Eboni+LK solution, which I
> still think will be the best compromise of all the above issues.
> 
> Ultimately, if possible, I'd like to get away from using color inks.
> That's it for now.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton

Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Clayton Jones

Hello Tony,

>Sounds like a lot is changing in your shop.  Just as you were about
>to finalize a BO curve for QTR with your 2200, you instead find 
>yourself with a 2400 and a whole new set of challenges.  Let's hope 
>you get on top of this new animal soon.  

I know, there's never time to just relax and make pictures.  I wonder
how long this pace of change will continue...



>Speaking of ink, I just ordered a matte Pantone cartridge for the 
>4000 to test out for BO printing.  

What is matte Pantone? Sorry, it's a new one on me.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Clayton Jones

Hello Richard,

>My 2200 has been getting more and more troublesome in feeding papers
>as well lately. I've had a similar "clunk" noise before, especially
>when feeding in small papers for some reason (like 4x6).  

There was an Epson Rep at the store who said that there is "a series
of cogs" in there.  I assume that means some cams and gears that have
to mesh precisely.  I suppose that as some edges and corners wear the
meshing becomes less precise and eventually there's a jam.  It really
scared me, I thought for a few minutes it had completely died.  I'll
miss it, it's been a real workhorse.


>I too have been very pleased with my BO prints on my 2200 and have
>used QTR from time to time especially for the sepia look.  But the
>2400 has had me intrigued.  Now that you have one I will watch your
>testing and experimenting with interest as I think a 2400 is on the
>horizon for me as well....

Well, all mechanical things wear out eventually, so you better prepare
yourself <g>.  Of course I've barely scratched the surface with the
new one.  Once people begin using QTR and/or other RIPs with it we'll
know lots more of what it can and can't do.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Jeff Magidson

Hey Clayton;

  A few things about ink cost:

If you shop around you can get the carts for a lot less than $15. If 
you do a good amount of printing (sounds like you do) you would be far 
better off with a Epson 4800. Sure it cost $1,000 more up front   but  
right off the bat it comes with about $400 more of ink, so its really 
about $600 more up front. If you do the math the additional cost of the 
4800 pays for itself in ink savings in pretty short order. Then you are 
left with a better printer with lower operating costs and the option of 
making bigger prints.

Of course if you don't do a lot of printing and have a lot of questions 
about the printers capabilities the r2400 is less of a gamble.
-Jeff
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>    Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 03:08:29 -0000
>    From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
> Subject: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400
>
>
>
> What I don't like:
>
> - Just the general principle of using color inks.
>
> - Cost!  Man, those inks are dear at $15 per cart, and this thing uses
> a LOT of ink.  Hopefully some refillable carts and 3p inks will
> alleviate that.

Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by bwbonkers

Steve

Thanks for the info. I wonder if a MIS bottom fill adapter could be 
used to suck ink straight out of the cart. I would guess not if there 
is no vent hole. If the foil bag is easy to get at then I guess the 
answer is to syringe the ink into new plastic bottles. Voila bulk 
ink. Very tempted to try this. 

Peter.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Actually I can help a little as I just finished a 4800 110 ml 
cartridge.  If
> you peel the label off (easily done), the back of the cartridge can 
easily
> be taken off with a small screwdriver or something - it just clips 
on with 8
> clips.  Once the back is off you can access the foil bag inside (it 
just
> lies there and is easily removed.  It has a poppet valve at one 
end.  I
> would assume you could easily cut the corner off the bag (or 
manipulate the
> poppet valve) to get the ink out - or simply suck it out of the 
corner of
> the bag with a syringe.
> 
> 
> > From: Steve Kale <stevekale@b...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:37:37 +0100
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> > When you buy one and try it be sure to let us know...
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> >> From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@a...>
> > 
> >> I have asked this before, but how easy is it to get
> >> ink out of these 110/220 carts. This would make a big difference 
to ink
> >> costs.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Steve Kale

I think the bottom fill adaptor is well worth a try.  But like I said, you
can get access to the bag in about 30 secs so either way it is not a hassle.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:50:39 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400
> 
> Steve
> 
> Thanks for the info. I wonder if a MIS bottom fill adapter could be
> used to suck ink straight out of the cart. I would guess not if there
> is no vent hole. If the foil bag is easy to get at then I guess the
> answer is to syringe the ink into new plastic bottles. Voila bulk
> ink. Very tempted to try this.
> 
> Peter.

Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Clayton Jones

Hi Jeff,

>If you shop around you can get the carts for a lot less than $15. 

Thanks, I'll have a look around, although I hope to not be using these
inks for too long.


>If you do a good amount of printing (sounds like you do) you would 
>be far better off with a Epson 4800. Sure it cost $1,000 more up 
>front but right off the bat it comes with about $400 more of ink, 
>so its really about $600 more up front. If you do the math the 
>additional cost of the 4800 pays for itself in ink savings in 
>pretty short order. Then you are left with a better printer with 
>lower operating costs and the option of making bigger prints.

All true, and I've thought about it.  But, as with the 2200, I'll
probably be doing lots of experimenting.  Between BO, various UT7
formulas and QTR/2K experiments, I was swapping carts frequently. 
With these small carts it's quick and low loss, while a 4800 is more
costly.  That, plus the space and size issues, it just doesn't add up
for me.

 
>...questions about the printers capabilities the r2400 is less of 
>a gamble.

I don't think of it as a gamble so much.  Besides, what other choices
are there?  Sooner or later we're all going to be using the modern
printers.  Might as well dive in and figure out how to use it.  I
think the 2400 will be hugely popular and all sorts of 3p products
will appear for it.  I just wish the BO option had been kept.  I could
put some Eboni in it and continue doing what I was doing.  I don't
like having to practically start all over finding new solutions, but I
don't have much choice.  

At least I can make nice prints on VFA in the meantime.  They really
are quite pretty.  I prefer a cooler tone, and these resemble my
Eboni/Merlin Smooth prints which has been one of my favorite
combinations.  They are just a tad warmer, but not as warm as
Eboni/PR, and have excellent dmax and luminance.  I can live with it
while I figure out something else.  I suspect I'll have an intimate
relationship with QTR <g>.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Steve Kale

OK I just tried the bottom fill adaptor - albeit on a cart that was largely
empty (even when "empty" the 4800 carts supposedly have about 12ml of ink in
them).  It is quite difficult to suck the ink out without a vent hole.  I
would suggest taking the ink pouch out of the case, perhaps then pricking
one end and then sucking the ink out of the poppet valve with the bottom
fill adaptor.   Good luck.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:02:07 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400
> 
> I think the bottom fill adaptor is well worth a try.  But like I said, you
> can get access to the bag in about 30 secs so either way it is not a hassle.
>

Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Tony Bonanno

Hi Clayton,

Pantone is now making "pigment" inksets for several of the Epson
printers including the 2200, 4000, etc.  They are known for their high
quality graphic inks and color mgmt products for the print industry.

Anyway, they are claiming "archival" and "neutral pigment black inks"
in their new line of Pantone Colorvantage archival pigments for wide
format printers.

More info here: 
http://www.pantone.com/ColorVan/home_colorvantage.asp?idArticle=717

I've found a distributor in Florida that appears to have the best
prices (under $50 for 110ml) and the initial impression I have is that
customer service will be good (I talked to them on the phone)-
Microgeo-USA 866-343-4515.  Anyway, I should have the Pantone
cartridges soon and I'll let you know what I find out. I figure I'll
flush the eboni out and then substitute the Pantone MK and see what
the tone is, etc.  I suspect I might want to go the whole Pantone
pigment set, at least give them a try if I like what I see.

I'll keep you and the group posted.

Tony






Pantone is making some interesting claims, such as wider color gamut
for Ultrachrome printers, etc.

Anyway, I want to see how their matte black compares to Eboni.  I've
got a 110ml MK cartridge on the way for testing purposes.  If it "look
good", it might prove a nice option to MIS Eboni.  Price is attractive
(under $50 for 110) and network of distribution/dealer


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hello Tony,

> >Speaking of ink, I just ordered a matte Pantone cartridge for the 
> >4000 to test out for BO printing.  
> 
> What is matte Pantone? Sorry, it's a new one on me.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

RE: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Paul Roark

> ... how easy is it to get ink out of these 110/220 carts. 

I pull ink out of Epson 7600 carts easily with a syringe and a modified
bottom fill adapter.  See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Mod_Bot_Fill.jpg
This is the same adapter I use to prime the easy-refill cartridges.  Just
take a file to a standard MIS bottom fill adapter.  


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Carl Schofield

Clayton,

I've found that a custom gray icc profile, used  as the print space  
when using 3p papers with the Epson 2400 in ABW mode, significantly  
improves linearity and smoothness.  This is particularly true for  
matte papers.  I use the QTR-Create-ICC script that Roy provides in  
the QTR 2.3 download package to make the gray icc print profiles.

Carl

Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by bwbonkers

Second that. Works a treat. 

Peter.
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Clayton,
> 
> I've found that a custom gray icc profile, used  as the print space  
> when using 3p papers with the Epson 2400 in ABW mode, significantly  
> improves linearity and smoothness.  This is particularly true for  
> matte papers.  I use the QTR-Create-ICC script that Roy provides in  
> the QTR 2.3 download package to make the gray icc print profiles.
> 
> Carl

[Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by bwbonkers

Thanks Paul.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > ... how easy is it to get ink out of these 110/220 carts. 
> 
> I pull ink out of Epson 7600 carts easily with a syringe and a 
modified
> bottom fill adapter.  See 
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Mod_Bot_Fill.jpg
> This is the same adapter I use to prime the easy-refill cartridges.  
Just
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> take a file to a standard MIS bottom fill adapter.  
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by ccolbertbw

Steve -

The bottom fill adapter needs a small piece of tubing around it to fit
the hole. Buy one from MIS and see. Otherwise the shape isn't quite 
right and it makes a mess. With the correct adapter you can fill and
empty the carts easily without destroying them. If you
end up buying bulk inks, you can reuse the carts many times 
before they wear out.

Costa

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> OK I just tried the bottom fill adaptor - albeit on a cart that was largely
> empty (even when "empty" the 4800 carts supposedly have about 12ml of ink in
> them).  It is quite difficult to suck the ink out without a vent hole.  I
> would suggest taking the ink pouch out of the case, perhaps then pricking
> one end and then sucking the ink out of the poppet valve with the bottom
> fill adaptor.   Good luck.
> 
> 
> > From: Steve Kale <stevekale@b...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:02:07 +0100
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400
> > 
> > I think the bottom fill adaptor is well worth a try.  But like I said, you
> > can get access to the bag in about 30 secs so either way it is not a hassle.
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Steve Kale

Hey Costa

I was just doing a quick test on a near empty cart for Peter - the issue was
not the seal but the suction required to pull ink out (although I agree with
Paul that ideally one would take a file to the tip of the bottom fill
adaptor).  But I have to say I am about done with bulk inks.  Having spent
the last three days making profiles for my 4800 Epson driver and QTR I am
hoping not to be tempted by a new ink set for quite some time!  I switched
Epson MK for Eboni on the 4800 and I am hoping that will be the end of it.
I am very happy with the Epson K3 inks (220ml carts) thus far and I am not
sure buying bulk ink is worth the extra hassle unless one was printing in
enormous volumes (ie a production/print house).

Cheers

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: ccolbertbw <ccolbert@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:01:45 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400
> 
> Steve -
> 
> The bottom fill adapter needs a small piece of tubing around it to fit
> the hole. Buy one from MIS and see. Otherwise the shape isn't quite
> right and it makes a mess. With the correct adapter you can fill and
> empty the carts easily without destroying them. If you
> end up buying bulk inks, you can reuse the carts many times
> before they wear out.
> 
> Costa
> 
>

Carl's ICC profile for the 2400 (Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400)

2005-08-15 by wwodets

Carl-
Perhaps this is obvious to others, but what is the logic of using the 
profile (in an ICM workflow I gather) and then sending it to the ABW 
driver?  And are these paper-specific profiles?  And why use the ABW 
driver at all?  Etc.

Many thanks,
Walt


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
> Clayton,
> 
> I've found that a custom gray icc profile, used  as the print 
space  
> when using 3p papers with the Epson 2400 in ABW mode, 
significantly  
> improves linearity and smoothness.  This is particularly true for  
> matte papers.  I use the QTR-Create-ICC script that Roy provides 
in  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> the QTR 2.3 download package to make the gray icc print profiles.
> 
> Carl

Re: [Digital BW] Carl's ICC profile for the 2400 (Re: R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400)

2005-08-15 by Steve Kale

ABW is a Same as Source workflow.  The ICC profile Carl was referring to is
a QTR ICC profile which manages luminance only.  So you profile AB&W's
luminance profile and use this to manage the luminance compression but don't
colour manage hue.  Consider it a semi-colour-managed workflow.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: wwodets <odets@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:35:12 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Carl's ICC profile for the 2400 (Re: R.I.P. Old Friend
> 2200 -> 2400)
> 
> Carl-
> Perhaps this is obvious to others, but what is the logic of using the
> profile (in an ICM workflow I gather) and then sending it to the ABW
> driver?  And are these paper-specific profiles?  And why use the ABW
> driver at all?  Etc.
> 
> Many thanks,
> Walt
>

time tinkering w printers vs. time photographing: was R.I.P. Old Fri2200 -> 2400

2005-08-15 by Bob Michaels

Clayton: make sure you sometime turn the printers off and pick up the
camera just to go shoot. Spending too much time at home looking at a
screen and prints while worrying about the new technolgy sure seems
like a path to major burnout to me. This is simply for fun since we
can't make a living at it. Just don't start treating a great
recreational hobby like a job. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
> I know, there's never time to just relax and make pictures.  I wonder
> how long this pace of change will continue...

Re: time tinkering w printers vs. time photographing: was R.I.P. Old Fri2200 ->

2005-08-16 by Clayton Jones

Hello Bob,

>Clayton: make sure you sometime turn the printers off and pick up the
>camera just to go shoot. Spending too much time at home looking at a
>screen and prints while worrying about the new technolgy sure seems
>like a path to major burnout to me. This is simply for fun since we
>can't make a living at it. Just don't start treating a great
>recreational hobby like a job. 

Thanks, that's always good advice and it never hurts to hear it again.
 One of the things I have loved about BO is it kept me out of all this
business about curves and stuff, and now here I am in the thick of it.
 Sigh.  I have enjoyed 2 years of bliss with the 2200 and now feel
like I'm starting all over again, searching for something I can be
happy with.  I hope to nail it down pretty quick and go back to a
simpler life.  I've made some progress with Condor this evening, but
will withhold final judgement until I can get some Eboni in here and
see what it does.  It may throw everything cattywampus and I'll have
to readjust all my settings.  Also some progress on a QTR BO curve,
but so far does not equal the 2200 BO quality, so I don't know whether
that will be a viable option.  I hate being dependent on a machine. 
One machine wears out and the next one is so different it completely
changes your workflow.  Maybe I'll just quit this and take up drawing
with a #2 pencil <g>.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: time tinkering w printers vs. time photographing: was R.I.P. Old Fri2200 ->

2005-08-16 by Clayton Jones

>>"Maybe I'll just quit this and take up drawing with a #2 pencil."
> 
>I thought the reason we become photographers is because we 
>CAN'T draw. 

Oh, yeah, forgot about that.  Darn, foiled again.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

[Digital BW] R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400...Carl

2005-08-16 by Clayton Jones

Carl,

>I've found that a custom gray icc profile, used  as the print space  
>when using 3p papers with the Epson 2400 in ABW mode, significantly  
>improves linearity and smoothness.  This is particularly true for  
>matte papers.  I use the QTR-Create-ICC script that Roy provides in  
>the QTR 2.3 download package to make the gray icc print profiles.

Thanks for the tip.  I downloaded & installed 2.3.  By "script" do you
mean the gray-readme.rtf file in the \icc folder, or do you mean a
script as in instructions for creating a custom profile?  The rtf file
talks about using the canned profiles when printing with QTR, not
custom ones with Epson/ABW, so I'm not sure if this is what you
meant...can you clarify this?  Thanks.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400...Carl

2005-08-16 by bwbonkers

Hi Clayton

The script Carl is refering to is a small program named "QTR-
Create-ICC" not the grey-readme.rtf file. On the Mac you should find 
it in the EyeOne folder. You probably know this already but to use 
the script do the following:

1)Print the step-51-random.tiff using 'same as source' as print
space.

2)Measure with EyeOne and save file as a text file.

3)Drag the saved text file onto the QTR-Create-ICC script.

Voila it will create a grey icc profile, same name as the saved text 
file. In PS it will have QTR appended to it. Then use this instead 
of 'same as source' as printer space.

I'm using Ilford pearl and gloss at the moment and the profile makes
a noticable difference. At the next ink replacement comming up soon I 
will try the mK cart and see what this baby does on matte papers.

Keep us posted with your experiences with this new printer, its 
always interesting.

Peter.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Carl,
> 
> >I've found that a custom gray icc profile, used  as the print 
space  
> >when using 3p papers with the Epson 2400 in ABW mode, 
significantly  
> >improves linearity and smoothness.  This is particularly true for  
> >matte papers.  I use the QTR-Create-ICC script that Roy provides 
in  
> >the QTR 2.3 download package to make the gray icc print profiles.
> 
> Thanks for the tip.  I downloaded & installed 2.3.  By "script" do 
you
> mean the gray-readme.rtf file in the \icc folder, or do you mean a
> script as in instructions for creating a custom profile?  The rtf 
file
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> talks about using the canned profiles when printing with QTR, not
> custom ones with Epson/ABW, so I'm not sure if this is what you
> meant...can you clarify this?  Thanks.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] R.I.P. Old Friend 2200 -> 2400...Carl

2005-08-16 by wwodets

Peter-  

Thanks for that explanation.  And I assume that this profile could 
then also be used as the print space in the Soft Proof function?

Walt




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers" 
<PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
> Hi Clayton
> 
> The script Carl is refering to is a small program named "QTR-
> Create-ICC" not the grey-readme.rtf file. On the Mac you should 
find 
> it in the EyeOne folder. You probably know this already but to use 
> the script do the following:
> 
> 1)Print the step-51-random.tiff using 'same as source' as print
> space.
> 
> 2)Measure with EyeOne and save file as a text file.
> 
> 3)Drag the saved text file onto the QTR-Create-ICC script.
> 
> Voila it will create a grey icc profile, same name as the saved 
text 
> file. In PS it will have QTR appended to it. Then use this instead 
> of 'same as source' as printer space.
> 
> I'm using Ilford pearl and gloss at the moment and the profile makes
> a noticable difference. At the next ink replacement comming up soon 
I 
> will try the mK cart and see what this baby does on matte papers.
> 
> Keep us posted with your experiences with this new printer, its 
> always interesting.
> 
> Peter.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
Jones" 
> <cj@c...> wrote:
> > Carl,
> > 
> > >I've found that a custom gray icc profile, used  as the print 
> space  
> > >when using 3p papers with the Epson 2400 in ABW mode, 
> significantly  
> > >improves linearity and smoothness.  This is particularly true 
for  
> > >matte papers.  I use the QTR-Create-ICC script that Roy provides 
> in  
> > >the QTR 2.3 download package to make the gray icc print profiles.
> > 
> > Thanks for the tip.  I downloaded & installed 2.3.  By "script" 
do 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> you
> > mean the gray-readme.rtf file in the \icc folder, or do you mean a
> > script as in instructions for creating a custom profile?  The rtf 
> file
> > talks about using the canned profiles when printing with QTR, not
> > custom ones with Epson/ABW, so I'm not sure if this is what you
> > meant...can you clarify this?  Thanks.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Photographers can't draw

2005-08-16 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> "Maybe I'll just quit this and take up drawing
> with a #2 pencil <g>."
> 
> I thought the reason we become photographers is, because we CAN'T draw. 

There have been times in my life where the main purpose of my
photography was to capture images so that I could draw, paint, or
engrave them at my leisure.

And being able to draw has always served me well. A quick sketch can
get you on the same page as an art director, in jig time.

It's no different than old fashioned photography

2005-08-16 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Michaels"
<bob@b...> wrote:
> Clayton: make sure you sometime turn the printers off and pick up the
> camera just to go shoot. Spending too much time at home looking at a
> screen and prints 

It seems a big improvement over the old days of photography, where for
every hour we shot, we had to spend at least four hours in a vermine
filled cave, flooded with toxic fumes.

What did we call those places? The drippy room? The dank room?
Something like that.

Re: Photographers can't draw

2005-08-16 by scott_now_coming

There are artist that pick up a camera and use it as another art 
form, such as some one like David Hockney.

Or, someone such as Chuck Close who uses b&w photographs to use as a 
referance for his paintings.

But I've yet to meet a photographer that has thrown away his camera 
and started using another media to create "art".

Photographers are not artist. They're photographers.

I don't like when someone refers to me as an artist. I've never 
wanted to be one.

I've always wanted to be a photographer. That's what I am and that's 
what I want to be known as.

My reply to Clayton regarding this matter was meant as a joke. No one 
should have  taken it seriously.

Long live photographers.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" 
<wiz@n...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> > "Maybe I'll just quit this and take up drawing
> > with a #2 pencil <g>."
> > 
> > I thought the reason we become photographers is, because we CAN'T 
draw. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> There have been times in my life where the main purpose of my
> photography was to capture images so that I could draw, paint, or
> engrave them at my leisure.
> 
> And being able to draw has always served me well. A quick sketch can
> get you on the same page as an art director, in jig time.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Photographers can't draw

2005-08-16 by El Estudio

--- scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>
wrote:

> But I've yet to meet a photographer that has thrown
> away his camera 
> and started using another media to create "art".
> 
> Photographers are not artist. They're photographers.

Hi Scott,

Just a cultural brief:
Henri Cartier-Bresson "threw away" his cameras and
devoted his last years to painting and sketching and
he did so very successfully. In fact, the grandson of
a world wide known painter who wanted to be a
photographer turned to painting thanks to Cartier
Bresson whom -by the way- was a close friend to Henri
Matisse. 
There is a picture by Martine Franck of Magnum where
Cartier Bresson and this person are painting together
in the countryside in France.

Regards,
Pablo


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Photographers can't draw

2005-08-16 by Megan Milligan

i also care to dispute the notion that photographers can't be artists.  i also paint asid efrom doing photography, while I'm self-taught and in my beginning stages in traditional media (i've done digital art the last 6 years).  i have a friend who is an even more accomplished digital artist and photographer.
 
Megan Milligan
yasminduran@...
www.desertrosemusings.com


El Estudio <elestudio@...> wrote:
--- scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>
wrote:

> But I've yet to meet a photographer that has thrown
> away his camera 
> and started using another media to create "art".
> 
> Photographers are not artist. They're photographers.

Hi Scott,

Just a cultural brief:
Henri Cartier-Bresson "threw away" his cameras and
devoted his last years to painting and sketching and
he did so very successfully. In fact, the grandson of
a world wide known painter who wanted to be a
photographer turned to painting thanks to Cartier
Bresson whom -by the way- was a close friend to Henri
Matisse. 
There is a picture by Martine Franck of Magnum where
Cartier Bresson and this person are painting together
in the countryside in France.

Regards,
Pablo


            
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 



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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Photographers can't draw

2005-08-16 by Mark Savoia

Boy, did scott_now_coming (what is that username all about?) step in  
some shit.
Mark

On Aug 16, 2005, at 4:42 PM, Megan Milligan wrote:

> i also care to dispute the notion that photographers can't be  
> artists.  i also paint asid efrom doing photography, while I'm self- 
> taught and in my beginning stages in traditional media (i've done  
> digital art the last 6 years).  i have a friend who is an even more  
> accomplished digital artist and photographer.
>
> Megan Milligan
> yasminduran@...
> www.desertrosemusings.com
>
>
> El Estudio <elestudio@...> wrote:
> --- scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>
> wrote:
>
> > But I've yet to meet a photographer that has thrown
> > away his camera
> > and started using another media to create "art".
> >
> > Photographers are not artist. They're photographers.
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> Just a cultural brief:
> Henri Cartier-Bresson "threw away" his cameras and
> devoted his last years to painting and sketching and
> he did so very successfully. In fact, the grandson of
> a world wide known painter who wanted to be a
> photographer turned to painting thanks to Cartier
> Bresson whom -by the way- was a close friend to Henri
> Matisse.
> There is a picture by Martine Franck of Magnum where
> Cartier Bresson and this person are painting together
> in the countryside in France.
>
> Regards,
> Pablo
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Re: It's no different than old fashioned photography

2005-08-16 by Clayton Jones

Koloshor,

>a vermine filled cave

LOL!  I like that.


>flooded with toxic fumes.

...aching back, sore feet...



>What did we call those places? The drippy room? The dank room?
>Something like that.

The Dark Ages.   


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Photographers can't draw - Oh Please!

2005-08-16 by Clayton Jones

Children, Children,

Must we start a flame thread over something as silly as this? 
Everyone please take ten deep breaths and let it go.  Time to go back
to profitable pursuits.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

RE: [Digital BW] Re: It's no different than old fashioned photography

2005-08-17 by Chris Aitken

> Koloshor,
> 
> >a vermine filled cave
> 
> LOL!  I like that.
> 
> 
> >flooded with toxic fumes.
> 
> ...aching back, sore feet...
> 
> 
> 
> >What did we call those places? The drippy room? The dank room?
> >Something like that.
> 
> The Dark Ages.

Just putting one of those into the loft in my new house. Cheaper to wet
print MF than buy a scanner for it ;)


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