Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-08 by davedoughman

I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make
great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or
without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more
confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage
of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include
ImagePrint?

I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate
profiles.

Dave

RE: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-08 by Paul Roark

It's definitely easy to get confused reading this list.  On the other hand,
note how many people have a cheap C86 with the EZ MIS inks and get great B&W
prints with no instruments, no color management, no rip, and not much money
spent.  

I recommend people get on the learning curve cheaply and easily.  Once one
starts actually printing, the issues here will have more context and make
more sense.  Although I have 5 printers within sight in my office, including
2 large formats and a 2400, the C86 with MIS EZ-N ink is the printer that is
used the most.  99% of people cannot tell the difference between a C86 print
and one made on the most expensive system.  There is no inkjet system that
can make a more archival print than the C86.  

See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-EZ-UT-Readme.htm for more information
on the C86, and http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm for an index of the
other printer setups I've used recently.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> davedoughman
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 6:09 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print -
> Can It Be Made on a Computer
> 
> I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make
> great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or
> without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more
> confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage
> of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include
> ImagePrint?
> 
> I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate
> profiles.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-08 by Richard Sintchak

I print wonderful B&W prints with my 2200 using either the BO method or QTR.
It hardly be more simple.
 Yes, it can get confusing from this list, and there are ways that some
people feel may be better. But try one of the simple ways I just mentioned,
it may just be not only good enough, but darned good.
 Richard

 On 10/8/05, davedoughman <davedoughman@...> wrote:
>
> I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make
> great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or
> without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more
> confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage
> of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include
> ImagePrint?
>
> I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate
> profiles.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>   Digital wedding photography<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+wedding+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=Umur-3rsLOic7dZMwVL94w> Learn
> digital photography<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Learn+digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=emApqtvj0kHQhppIzRrNgw> Digital
> photography college<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+college&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=aIiABJLTZsUnmWBs4mZwuA>  Digital
> photography<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=pJmwqgVzec3JGBtWYlPbOg> Digital
> photography web site<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+web+site&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=BMII8rtDZlAtVdZsPhaZqw> Digital
> photography course<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+course&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=OrnrutXVhHZu-7E7ccLtuw>
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>    - Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint>"
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-08 by douglas meeuwsen

What I do (as a hobbyist also) is work on my shot in photo shop cs, 
convert in the power retouche B/W plug-in (not nessesary really) and 
then sent it to the 2400 and out comes a great print, No calibration, 
no nothing..that is on a Mac though...DM
On Oct 8, 2005, at 7:08 AM, davedoughman wrote:

> I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make
>  great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or
>  without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more
>  confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage
>  of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include
>  ImagePrint?
>
>  I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate
>  profiles.
>
>  Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Digital wedding photography
> Learn digital photography
> Digital photography college
> Digital photography
> Digital photography web site
> Digital photography course
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> 	▪ 	 Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
>  
> 	▪ 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> 	▪ 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> Service.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Comp

2005-10-08 by Clayton Jones

Hello Dave,

>I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to 
>make great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP 
>with or without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I 
>read the more confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the 
>advantages/disadvantage of any or each of the major systems to 
>print great B&W to include ImagePrint? I'm a hobbist and don't 
>have the instruments to read/create accurate profiles.


I add my voice to what Paul and Richard have said, especially this:

Paul: "I recommend people get on the learning curve cheaply and 
easily. Once one starts actually printing, the issues here will 
have more context and make more sense."

This is good advice, and the C86 is a great way to get started.  If
you already have a 2200 then Black Only (BO) is an easy and
inexpensive way to get started, or QTR with its provided curves if you
want to get into that approach.  If you want a full ink method (not
BO) on a 13" printer without dealing with a RIP and curves and all
that, then the 2400 is highly recommended.  For instructions for BO on
the 2200 or R200, or the 2400 without profiles and color management,
there are some How-To articles at the link below.  It doesn't have to
be complicated.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-08 by sburger104@aol.com

Dave,
I don't think enough credit is given to the Epson 2400. The profiles supplied 
are excellent. 
Black & White is as easy as it gets. The paper feed for heavy matte papers is 
greatly improved over the 2200. But most of all their new ink is exceptional.
I own A 2200 with a Continuos ink system from MIS with Ut7 inks and love it. 
I just bought a 2400 and the shadow richness and detail are superior to the 
UT7 inkset. I know money is always a consideration, but If it's not, my choice 
would be for the 2400. The Eboni black ink on the 2200 yields a great d-max, 
but the extra black ink on the 2400 makes a big difference in the shadow detail, 
while maintaing a rich black.
Steve Burger


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Comp

2005-10-08 by Jeff Medkeff

Clayton Jones wrote:

> I add my voice to what Paul and Richard have said, especially this:
> 
> Paul: "I recommend people get on the learning curve cheaply and 
> easily. Once one starts actually printing, the issues here will 
> have more context and make more sense."
> 
> This is good advice, and the C86 is a great way to get started.  If
> you already have a 2200 then Black Only (BO) is an easy and
> inexpensive way to get started, or QTR with its provided curves if you
> want to get into that approach.

I concur with Paul and Clayton. I have fifteen years of experience with 
digital imaging, and almost a decade at color inkjet printing, but six 
months ago I had strictly entry-level theoretical knowledge of B&W 
inkjet printing, and no actual experience. Although I have a 2200, I 
decided to forgo BO in favor of exploring third party insets and trying 
to learn what was involved in getting good results from a system and 
process I found somewhat mysterious. So I bought a C86. Six months 
later, I can say that what is spoken of on this group makes a great deal 
more sense to me than it did when I was just reading peoples' summaries, 
and I think I'm in a much better position to figure out what is likely 
to work for me, and not.

-- 
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-08 by mastedward

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "davedoughman" 
<davedoughman@y...> wrote:
>
> I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make
> great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or
> without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more
> confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage
> of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include
> ImagePrint?
> 
> I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate
> profiles.
> 
> Dave
>
Dave, I have WindowsXP and the Epson 2200 and C86 and make (I think) 
wonderful b&w prints with both. (Never made a "perfect" b&w print in 
the darkroom and don't expect to on the inkjet printer).  When I 
first downloaded QTR for the 2200, I was unable to use it (I am not 
skilled with computers), so I bought the C86 and MIS inks and 
produced very nice b&w prints right out ot the box.  Then someone 
told me to try QTR again and how to use it, and that it was quite 
simple.  I downloaded it again - perhaps a newer and more user-
friendly version - and found it to be quite simple indeed. Certainly 
worth $50!  I know nothing about curves or profiles - use what ever 
came with the Epson printers or with the QTR program.  But, as Paul 
says, the C86 with MIS inks is unmatched for economy and simplicity.
But also try the 2200 with black-ink-only; you may find you love 
that.  Try both 1440 dpi and 2880 dpi to see which you like best.
Good luck,   Edward

Re: Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-08 by rgoldman2

In my experience you can make excellent black and white prints using UltraChrome Inks 
and the Advanced Black and White (ABW) feature of the Epson driver printing with 
PhotoBlack Ink on Epson Premium Semi Matte paper. This is an RC type paper not cotton. 
And I am printing on a 4800, not a 2400. However, the 2400 uses the same driver with 
ABW (which is why I am responding to your question), but Premium Semi Matte is only 
available in large sheets or rolls. You would have to cut (and waste) a lot to make it fit the 
2400 feeder. Also, my guess is that the very good Epson profile for the PSM is not 
available for the 2400. I might be wrong about that, however. 

There are very good alternative papers that are made for the 2400.Read Clayton Jones' 
essays about a workflow for good (maybe excellent -- I don't know) black and white prints 
on the cotton papers using matte black ink on the 2400. I guess is that these prints look 
very good but lack a certain richness or depth. But you, as do many others, my find the 
look quite pleasing. Jones until recently was using the black only printing technique on the 
2200 (see below), but he seems now to be using the full Epson ink set on his 2400 without 
a third party rip. (see message 68027 and  his website).

You do not need a third party RIP to make excellent prints on the 2400, because the ABW 
feature is a great improvement over the driver in the 2200. But as Steve Kale points out on 
this forum the QuadToneRip new feature called ICC Create can be used to improve even 
these ABW prints (see messages 68030 and 68248). Also see Roy Harrington's website 
about QTR called quadtonerip.com.

With the 2200, my experience was that the UltraChrome inks could be used to make quite 
good black and white prints, using the matte black ink on cotton paper. But a third party 
RIP was essential. I used QuadToneRip, and I was a very satisfied customer. But I am much 
happier with the rich prints I am getting on PSM paper using ABW. This is a very strong 
argument for the 2400 over the 2200. I will go back to the cotton papers soon, because 
they have a fine look of their own, and I want to see how the new Epson driver handles 
them on my 4800.

Your other alternative on the 2200 is to use the dedicated grey scale ink sets made by MIS 
(see Paul Roark's website)or Cone (inkjetmall.com). Again, printing on cotton paper. The 
2200 with almost 
any setup produced problematic prints on glosssy paper. Maybe using ImagePrint did a 
better job of it, I don't know.

Finally, on the 2200, you have the option, documented and developed by Clayton Jones, of 
printing with just the black ink -- either the UltraChrome matte black or Eboni black made 
by MIS, which many seem to prefer.

My own view is that the 2400 is a better printer (a really good printer) compared with the 
2200 for making black and white prints, whether it be on cotton paper with MK ink or on 
semi matte (or Costco Glossy) using PK. No additional rip necessary, but perhaps even 
better results by employing QTR ICC Create.

You can search this site for all of the proper nouns I've referred to here to get more 
information.

Re: Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Comp

2005-10-08 by Clayton Jones

Hello Rgoldman2,

Thanks for a good overview and for including mention of my articles.

I am disturbed by one thing, however, and that is you make a "guess"
at something and then infer that a technique produces lower quality
prints based on that guess.  I refer specifically to this, referring 
>to the 2400 workflow article:

>"I guess is that these prints look very good but lack a certain 
>richness or depth. But you, as do many others, my find the 
>look quite pleasing."

It really would be more helpful to forum readers only to post things
based on actual experience.  My own experience is that these prints
have exceptionally good richness and depth, in fact, they are as good
or better than I've seen from any system that uses all the color inks
to make BW.  Since you have a 4800, how about trying this workflow
next time you use MK on matte paper and then report your results.


>Jones until recently was using the black only printing technique 
>on the 2200 (see below), but he seems now to be using the full 
>Epson ink set on his 2400 without a third party rip (see message
>68027 and  his website). 

Actually I still use BO along with the 2400 for full ink prints.  For
prints that work well with it, Eboni BO prints have a beautiful glow
and intensity that, IMO, can't be beat by any full ink system I've
seen yet.  But it's also true that some images don't work well with
BO, and all along I've been experimenting with various multi-ink
aproaches for those, the most recent up until the 2440 being UT7 and
some variants.  My general approach is to work up proofs in BO, and if
it's one of those that doesn't work well then I switch to the 2400.



>My own view is that the 2400 is a better printer (a really good 
>printer) compared with the 2200 for making black and white prints, 

Agreed.  My respect for the 2400 continues to grow.  It's really a
beautifully engineered machine (and I'm sure that includes all the
models) and huge development in the industry.  As someone else said
the other day, it's the first OEM out of the box solution for good BW.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Comp

2005-10-08 by rgoldman2

Clayton, I do agree with you. The post would have been better (very marginally) without 
the conjecture. But in my defense, I think the conjecture was pretty well qualified. I did 
suggest that the prints you are making now on the 2400 might, in fact, be "excellent". I 
am looking forward to using MK in my 4800, pretty much along the lines that you suggest. 
My conjecture was based, really, on my experience with the 2200 printing on Moab 
Entrada  with UC ink and QTR. I really did like the look, but at the same time I wanted 
some of my prints to have, for lack of a better word, a richness that seemed not attainable 
on cotton paper with MK. I think that soon I am just going to have to force myself to go 
through the flushing routine and pop in an MK cartridge.

Cheers
Richard
Richardhgoldman.com

Re: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-08 by Scott McLoughlin

Another vote for the C86 and MIS EZ inks. Works like a charm
using Paul's slider settings and a pretty wide variety of papers.
Great OBE (Out of the Box Experience).

I also have a 2200 which I use BO with Kayenta and QTR
with EEM (I'll give EPSG a whirl once my MK cartridge runs
out - I have high hopes there).

But generally, the C86 and Kirkland paper get's most of my
printing time these days. It's cheap, very easy and the results
are pretty darned good.

Scott

Paul Roark wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> It's definitely easy to get confused reading this list.  On the other 
> hand,
> note how many people have a cheap C86 with the EZ MIS inks and get 
> great B&W
> prints with no instruments, no color management, no rip, and not much 
> money
> spent. 
>
> I recommend people get on the learning curve cheaply and easily.  Once one
> starts actually printing, the issues here will have more context and make
> more sense.  Although I have 5 printers within sight in my office, 
> including
> 2 large formats and a 2400, the C86 with MIS EZ-N ink is the printer 
> that is
> used the most.  99% of people cannot tell the difference between a C86 
> print
> and one made on the most expensive system.  There is no inkjet system that
> can make a more archival print than the C86. 
>
> See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-EZ-UT-Readme.htm for more 
> information
> on the C86, and http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm for an index 
> of the
> other printer setups I've used recently.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-08 by BKPhoto@aol.com

I picked up this thread a little late (had to watch the UT/OK football 
game today) but wanted to second (or third) Paul's suggestion. The C86 
and EZ inks are an excellent and inexpensive starting point for 
dedicated grayscale printing.

We have a digital lab where students have access to two Epson 4000's 
and one 4800. Each fall semester I teach a digital darkroom class; 
these are students who've already taken several digital imaging classes 
and want to concentrate on inkjet printmaking. I have every student 
purchase their own C86 printer (its on their course supply list). I 
started doing this as a way to encourage the same sense of ownership 
they experience in the wet darkroom. It makes the digital printing 
process less objective and more tactile. They learn the "care and 
feeding" of their own machine and use the small printers to master 
basic printing workflows (including print profile authoring with an 
EyeOne kit). They use the larger printers for mid-term and final 
portfolio work.

I demo both BIO (black ink only) and the EZ inks in class. About half, 
those interested primarily in grayscale printing, purchase a second C86 
(they find them for around $40.00 on sale; less than the cost of many 
Photoshop textbooks).

I consider the C86/EZ inks a minor miracle.

Bill Kennedy
Austin, Texas
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 08:29:19 -0700
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W 
Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

    It's definitely easy to get confused reading this list.  On the 
other hand,
note how many people have a cheap C86 with the EZ MIS inks and get 
great B&W
prints with no instruments, no color management, no rip, and not much 
money
spent.

I recommend people get on the learning curve cheaply and easily.  Once 
one
starts actually printing, the issues here will have more context and 
make
more sense.  Although I have 5 printers within sight in my office, 
including
2 large formats and a 2400, the C86 with MIS EZ-N ink is the printer 
that is
used the most.  99% of people cannot tell the difference between a C86 
print
and one made on the most expensive system.  There is no inkjet system 
that
can make a more archival print than the C86.

See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-EZ-UT-Readme.htm for more 
information
on the C86, and http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm for an index of 
the
other printer setups I've used recently.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> davedoughman
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 6:09 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W 
Print -
> Can It Be Made on a Computer
>
> I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make
> great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or
> without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more
> confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage
> of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include
> ImagePrint?
>
> I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate
> profiles.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
same
> page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE 
TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE 
USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; 
(iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources 
as they
are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
keep them
short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile,
aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership 
without
notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
from the
membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines,
and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See
"Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO!
GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY 
DIRECT,
INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, 
INCLUDING BUT
NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR 
OTHER
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, 
THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
DAMAGES),
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR 
TRANSMISSIONS OR
DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Comp

2005-10-08 by Clayton Jones

Hello Richard,

>Clayton, I do agree with you. The post would have been better 
>(very marginally) without the conjecture. But in my defense, I 
>think the conjecture was pretty well qualified...

Understood.


>My conjecture was based, really, on my experience with the 2200
>printing on Moab Entrada with UC ink and QTR. I really did like 
>the look, but at the same time I wanted some of my prints to have, 
>for lack of a better word, a richness that seemed not attainable 
>on cotton paper with MK. I think that soon I am just going to have 
>to force myself to go through the flushing routine and pop in an MK 
>cartridge.

I hope when you do you will try something besides Entrada.  When I
tested it for the "Great Paper Chase" review one of the things I noted
was it lacked "depth" compared to other papers, in fact, it got a "C"
rating.  Here's a quote from the review:

 "...Entrada looks a bit dull and flat compared to the others.  
 It lacks the "depth" that the better papers have."

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with what K3 with MK will do on
the better papers.

Speaking of matte paper dmax...

SET PREDICTION MODE ON
I think everyone agrees that the K3 printers are an important
milestone in the industry.  We finally have an excellent
out-of-the-box BW solution. We also have long lasting pigments with
good color gamut, and good dmax on glossy papers.   Now that these
milestones have been reached, further advances in these areas will
likely be more incremental.  It is my personal feeling that the next
really big breakthrough will be in matte paper dmax.  I know it's
being worked on.  I can't predict how long it will take, but I do
believe strongly that someday we'll have what we want.  It's just a
matter of time.
SET PREDICTION MODE OFF

In the meantime we can all have fun trying and learning new things. 
It's amazing how far we've come in the last four years.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW

2005-10-09 by Chris Hargens

What with all the talk concerning/comparing different printers, 
inksets, etc., I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has 
printed with both the 2200 using the UC inkset with QTR and the 2400 in 
ABW mode -- on matte paper. Is the 2400 ABW noticeably better, and if 
so, in what ways?

Chris Hargens

Re: 2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW

2005-10-09 by john dean

That's a good question.

I think we may entering an era where we were 20 years ago in the g.
silver darkroom - where some people prefered Ilford, some Agfa, some
Kodak, and some Oriental, and they were all good in their own ways for
their own characteristics. I see that happening now in inkjet.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens"
<chargens@s...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> What with all the talk concerning/comparing different printers, 
> inksets, etc., I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has 
> printed with both the 2200 using the UC inkset with QTR and the 2400 in 
> ABW mode -- on matte paper. Is the 2400 ABW noticeably better, and if 
> so, in what ways?
> 
> Chris Hargens
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Comp

2005-10-09 by Steve Kale

I would echo what Clayton is saying here.  One thing you might want to do
relatively immediately is to change from Epson MK ink to MIS Eboni.  It
performs much better than Epson MK on the heavier matte papers.  I would say
the two key areas for development in the near future for B&W printing will
be ICC colour management and a new MK ink as Clayton suggests.  The former
is coming along with the work of Roy Harrington.  I agree with him when he
says that this is the missing link in Epson's latest solution.  As to the
second, I do think we will see potentially vast improvements within a year.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>

> I think everyone agrees that the K3 printers are an important
> milestone in the industry.  We finally have an excellent
> out-of-the-box BW solution. We also have long lasting pigments with
> good color gamut, and good dmax on glossy papers.   Now that these
> milestones have been reached, further advances in these areas will
> likely be more incremental.  It is my personal feeling that the next
> really big breakthrough will be in matte paper dmax.

Re: [Digital BW] 2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW

2005-10-09 by Steve Kale

Hey Chros

We've been through this before when the new printers came out.  In short I
do think there is a significant overall improvement.  First and foremost,
the Adv B&W solution is _dramatically_ easier to use.  No mess no fuss.
Out-of-the-box work is so much better.  You had to really work on a 21/2200
to get decent output - say with a RIP like QTR.  I would argue that unless
you are worried about the use of yellow ink by Epson Adv B&W, you do not
need the QTR print module for the 2400.  The K3 inks are better on both
photo paper (reduced bronzing and no gloss differential except where there
is no ink and the reflectance of the paper differs from the inked areas) and
matte paper (one more grey and better colour density for colour work).  So
at the OEM level it's a slam dunk improvement by the 2400, at the third
party RIP/OEM ink level it's still a slam dunk improvement in terms of ease
of use and ink, and only at the 3rd party inks/3rd party RIP level does the
race become even close.  Couple Epson Adv B&W with QTR ICC profile
management and you've really got something that works well and easily.  Of
course from there you can start playing with dedicated inks and all that
sort of stuff but....

Cheers

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Chris Hargens <chargens@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:22:05 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] 2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW
> 
> What with all the talk concerning/comparing different printers,
> inksets, etc., I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has
> printed with both the 2200 using the UC inkset with QTR and the 2400 in
> ABW mode -- on matte paper. Is the 2400 ABW noticeably better, and if
> so, in what ways?
> 
> Chris Hargens

Re: [Digital BW] 2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW

2005-10-09 by Chris Hargens

Thanks, Steve, for your summary of the advantages of the 2400 with
Epson Adv B&W over the 2200 running QTR. Since I seldom print on
glossy paper and since I'm comfortable using QTR, the key questions
for me are 1) On matte paper, how much better are the 2400 black and
gray inks? and 2) Again on matte paper, how much of a difference do
users find printing with the 2400's three grays over printing with the
2200's two -- e.g., significant improvement in tonality, reduced dots
in highlights, better shadow detail?

Chris Hargens












--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> Hey Chros
> 
> We've been through this before when the new printers came out.  In
short I
> do think there is a significant overall improvement.  First and
foremost,
> the Adv B&W solution is _dramatically_ easier to use.  No mess no fuss.
> Out-of-the-box work is so much better.  You had to really work on a
21/2200
> to get decent output - say with a RIP like QTR.  I would argue that
unless
> you are worried about the use of yellow ink by Epson Adv B&W, you do not
> need the QTR print module for the 2400.  The K3 inks are better on both
> photo paper (reduced bronzing and no gloss differential except where
there
> is no ink and the reflectance of the paper differs from the inked
areas) and
> matte paper (one more grey and better colour density for colour
work).  So
> at the OEM level it's a slam dunk improvement by the 2400, at the third
> party RIP/OEM ink level it's still a slam dunk improvement in terms
of ease
> of use and ink, and only at the 3rd party inks/3rd party RIP level
does the
> race become even close.  Couple Epson Adv B&W with QTR ICC profile
> management and you've really got something that works well and
easily.  Of
> course from there you can start playing with dedicated inks and all that
> sort of stuff but....
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> > From: Chris Hargens <chargens@s...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:22:05 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] 2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW
> > 
> > What with all the talk concerning/comparing different printers,
> > inksets, etc., I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has
> > printed with both the 2200 using the UC inkset with QTR and the
2400 in
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > ABW mode -- on matte paper. Is the 2400 ABW noticeably better, and if
> > so, in what ways?
> > 
> > Chris Hargens
>

Re: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-09 by markfriedman1

Great thread as I'm considering the options to try my hand at black-
only printing. Have read good testimonials about the C86, but 
Clayton's article recommends avoiding the C86 and using the R200. 
Both printers seem to be around the same price point. What are the 
differences between the C86 and R200? Any significant advantages or 
disadvantages of each for black-only use?

Mark Friedman


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... 
wrote:
>
> I picked up this thread a little late (had to watch the UT/OK 
football 
> game today) but wanted to second (or third) Paul's suggestion. The 
C86 
> and EZ inks are an excellent and inexpensive starting point for 
> dedicated grayscale printing.
> 
> We have a digital lab where students have access to two Epson 
4000's 
> and one 4800. Each fall semester I teach a digital darkroom class; 
> these are students who've already taken several digital imaging 
classes 
> and want to concentrate on inkjet printmaking. I have every 
student 
> purchase their own C86 printer (its on their course supply list). 
I 
> started doing this as a way to encourage the same sense of 
ownership 
> they experience in the wet darkroom. It makes the digital printing 
> process less objective and more tactile. They learn the "care and 
> feeding" of their own machine and use the small printers to master 
> basic printing workflows (including print profile authoring with 
an 
> EyeOne kit). They use the larger printers for mid-term and final 
> portfolio work.
> 
> I demo both BIO (black ink only) and the EZ inks in class. About 
half, 
> those interested primarily in grayscale printing, purchase a 
second C86 
> (they find them for around $40.00 on sale; less than the cost of 
many 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Photoshop textbooks).
> 
> I consider the C86/EZ inks a minor miracle.
> 
> Bill Kennedy
> Austin, Texas

RE: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

2005-10-09 by John Moody

For black-only use, I look to Clayton and others, since I don’t own a C86,
nor have much experience with BO in general.
On my particular R200 I think the drop size might be just a hair too small
for the precision of the printer.  I say this in comparison to BO on my
2200, but I’m not using the same inks in both so it’s mostly conjecture on
my part.

For BW inksets:
The C86 is well proven and has an EZ inkset available.
While the R200 shows promise, inkset development is still in the development
phase.
Unless you enjoy the geek part of printer and RIP setup, I would go with the
C86 and be assured of good results.

Hopefully you read Paul’s C86 EZ-UT page mentioned earlier in this thread.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
markfriedman1
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 9:27 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W
Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer

Great thread as I'm considering the options to try my hand at black-
only printing. Have read good testimonials about the C86, but
Clayton's article recommends avoiding the C86 and using the R200.
Both printers seem to be around the same price point. What are the
differences between the C86 and R200? Any significant advantages or
disadvantages of each for black-only use?

Mark Friedman





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Perfect B&W Print ...R Goldman

2005-10-09 by djon43

Superb summary! 

It's rare when someone both writes coherently and with the intention
to be helpful (also applies to Clayton Jones). 

John Kelly

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "rgoldman2"
<rgoldman@n...> wrote:
>
> In my experience you can make excellent black and white prints using
UltraChrome Inks 
> and the Advanced Black and White (ABW) feature of the Epson driver
printing with 
> PhotoBlack Ink on Epson Premium Semi Matte paper. This is an RC type
paper not cotton. 
> And I am printing on a 4800, not a 2400. However, the 2400 uses the
same driver with 
> ABW (which is why I am responding to your question), but Premium
Semi Matte is only 
> available in large sheets or rolls. You would have to cut (and
waste) a lot to make it fit the 
> 2400 feeder. Also, my guess is that the very good Epson profile for
the PSM is not 
> available for the 2400. I might be wrong about that, however. 
> 
> There are very good alternative papers that are made for the
2400.Read Clayton Jones' 
> essays about a workflow for good (maybe excellent -- I don't know)
black and white prints 
> on the cotton papers using matte black ink on the 2400. I guess is
that these prints look 
> very good but lack a certain richness or depth. But you, as do many
others, my find the 
> look quite pleasing. Jones until recently was using the black only
printing technique on the 
> 2200 (see below), but he seems now to be using the full Epson ink
set on his 2400 without 
> a third party rip. (see message 68027 and  his website).
> 
> You do not need a third party RIP to make excellent prints on the
2400, because the ABW 
> feature is a great improvement over the driver in the 2200. But as
Steve Kale points out on 
> this forum the QuadToneRip new feature called ICC Create can be used
to improve even 
> these ABW prints (see messages 68030 and 68248). Also see Roy
Harrington's website 
> about QTR called quadtonerip.com.
> 
> With the 2200, my experience was that the UltraChrome inks could be
used to make quite 
> good black and white prints, using the matte black ink on cotton
paper. But a third party 
> RIP was essential. I used QuadToneRip, and I was a very satisfied
customer. But I am much 
> happier with the rich prints I am getting on PSM paper using ABW.
This is a very strong 
> argument for the 2400 over the 2200. I will go back to the cotton
papers soon, because 
> they have a fine look of their own, and I want to see how the new
Epson driver handles 
> them on my 4800.
> 
> Your other alternative on the 2200 is to use the dedicated grey
scale ink sets made by MIS 
> (see Paul Roark's website)or Cone (inkjetmall.com). Again, printing
on cotton paper. The 
> 2200 with almost 
> any setup produced problematic prints on glosssy paper. Maybe using
ImagePrint did a 
> better job of it, I don't know.
> 
> Finally, on the 2200, you have the option, documented and developed
by Clayton Jones, of 
> printing with just the black ink -- either the UltraChrome matte
black or Eboni black made 
> by MIS, which many seem to prefer.
> 
> My own view is that the 2400 is a better printer (a really good
printer) compared with the 
> 2200 for making black and white prints, whether it be on cotton
paper with MK ink or on 
> semi matte (or Costco Glossy) using PK. No additional rip necessary,
but perhaps even 
> better results by employing QTR ICC Create.
> 
> You can search this site for all of the proper nouns I've referred
to here to get more 
> information.
>

Re: Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Comp

2005-10-09 by David Keenan

>Agreed.  My respect for the 2400 continues to grow.  It's really a
>beautifully engineered machine (and I'm sure that includes all the
>models) and huge development in the industry.  As someone else said
>the other day, it's the first OEM out of the box solution for good BW.

Clayton --

If one has a 2200 does your opinion of the 2400 suggest that an upgrade is worthwhile?

Others with experience with both printers also please chime in. 


Dave.
-- 
David Keenan, ausdlk@... on 10/9/2005

RE: [Digital BW] The Perfect B&W Print ...R Goldman

2005-10-09 by John Moody

Yes indeed!

Gloss prints using the new MIS BW inks are remarkably better. This is new
information, which can be applied to the 2200.  The 2400 is still a better
printer, but the gap has narrowed considerably with the new base UT7 for
gloss/luster prints.  If you also print color, then the 2400 is pretty much
a no-brainer over the 2200.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of djon43
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 10:10 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] The Perfect B&W Print ...R Goldman

Superb summary!

It's rare when someone both writes coherently and with the intention
to be helpful (also applies to Clayton Jones).

John Kelly




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] 2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW

2005-10-09 by Steve Kale

How good is your eye?  Seriously, if you want to narrow things down that
much and eliminate many of the advantages the 2400 has over the 21/2200 I
suggest you get a few of your favourite images printed on each and see if
YOU can see the difference and then decide if the differences YOU see are
worth the YOUR cost of an upgrade.  You are into the nitty gritty here and
you really should come to your own opinion.  Theoretically and practically
the 2400 will be better on matte paper using QTR with the new inks.  Is it
enough to justify a purchase when you already have a 2200?  Based on ease of
use and paper flexibility I would say absolutely yes but you've taken those
considerations off the table.  You've now got to see for yourself.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Chris Hargens <chargens@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:26:42 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW
> 
> Thanks, Steve, for your summary of the advantages of the 2400 with
> Epson Adv B&W over the 2200 running QTR. Since I seldom print on
> glossy paper and since I'm comfortable using QTR, the key questions
> for me are 1) On matte paper, how much better are the 2400 black and
> gray inks? and 2) Again on matte paper, how much of a difference do
> users find printing with the 2400's three grays over printing with the
> 2200's two -- e.g., significant improvement in tonality, reduced dots
> in highlights, better shadow detail?
> 
> Chris Hargens
>

Re: Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Comp

2005-10-09 by Clayton Jones

Hello Dave,

>If one has a 2200 does your opinion of the 2400 suggest that an 
>upgrade is worthwhile?

That's hard to answer.  As a general statement I'd say if you're happy
with the results you're getting then stick with the 2200.  If you're
unhappy or have an itch to try something new then it's a fine way to
go.  But it's an expensive machine ($850) so it certainly would
require some consideration.

I don't know how you're using your 2200, but one thing to consider is
that the 2400 won't be only a K3 printer for very long.  QTR already
works with it, and carts are available for it, which means one could,
for example, put UT7 inks in it right now if getting away from the
color ink dots is important.  Someday MIS will likely have a grayscale
inkset for it that will work with the ABW interface - just dial up the
tone you want, so it won't be limited to the color ink dot approach. 
So before too long it will be a printer of multiple options.

Some other things: The 2400 is quieter and faster than the 2200, and I
really like the ABW tone system because it provides an easy way to
have very fine control.  It also looks nice <g>.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.