Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer
2005-10-08 by davedoughman
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2005-10-08 by davedoughman
I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include ImagePrint? I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate profiles. Dave
2005-10-08 by Paul Roark
It's definitely easy to get confused reading this list. On the other hand, note how many people have a cheap C86 with the EZ MIS inks and get great B&W prints with no instruments, no color management, no rip, and not much money spent. I recommend people get on the learning curve cheaply and easily. Once one starts actually printing, the issues here will have more context and make more sense. Although I have 5 printers within sight in my office, including 2 large formats and a 2400, the C86 with MIS EZ-N ink is the printer that is used the most. 99% of people cannot tell the difference between a C86 print and one made on the most expensive system. There is no inkjet system that can make a more archival print than the C86. See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-EZ-UT-Readme.htm for more information on the C86, and http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm for an index of the other printer setups I've used recently. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
> -----Original Message----- > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > davedoughman > Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 6:09 AM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - > Can It Be Made on a Computer > > I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make > great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or > without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more > confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage > of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include > ImagePrint? > > I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate > profiles. > > Dave > > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from > the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files > section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >
2005-10-08 by Richard Sintchak
I print wonderful B&W prints with my 2200 using either the BO method or QTR. It hardly be more simple. Yes, it can get confusing from this list, and there are ways that some people feel may be better. But try one of the simple ways I just mentioned, it may just be not only good enough, but darned good. Richard On 10/8/05, davedoughman <davedoughman@...> wrote: > > I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make > great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or > without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more > confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage > of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include > ImagePrint? > > I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate > profiles. > > Dave > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from > the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Digital wedding photography<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+wedding+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=Umur-3rsLOic7dZMwVL94w> Learn > digital photography<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Learn+digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=emApqtvj0kHQhppIzRrNgw> Digital > photography college<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+college&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=aIiABJLTZsUnmWBs4mZwuA> Digital > photography<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=pJmwqgVzec3JGBtWYlPbOg> Digital > photography web site<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+web+site&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=BMII8rtDZlAtVdZsPhaZqw> Digital > photography course<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+course&w1=Digital+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c=6&s=188&.sig=OrnrutXVhHZu-7E7ccLtuw> > ------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > - Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint>" > on the web. > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. > > > ------------------------------ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-10-08 by douglas meeuwsen
What I do (as a hobbyist also) is work on my shot in photo shop cs, convert in the power retouche B/W plug-in (not nessesary really) and then sent it to the 2400 and out comes a great print, No calibration, no nothing..that is on a Mac though...DM On Oct 8, 2005, at 7:08 AM, davedoughman wrote: > I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make > great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or > without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more > confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage > of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include > ImagePrint? > > I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate > profiles. > > Dave > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting > this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from > the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be > removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group > Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the > Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” > AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD > PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Digital wedding photography > Learn digital photography > Digital photography college > Digital photography > Digital photography web site > Digital photography course > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > ▪ Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web. > > ▪ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > ▪ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-10-08 by Clayton Jones
Hello Dave, >I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to >make great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP >with or without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I >read the more confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the >advantages/disadvantage of any or each of the major systems to >print great B&W to include ImagePrint? I'm a hobbist and don't >have the instruments to read/create accurate profiles. I add my voice to what Paul and Richard have said, especially this: Paul: "I recommend people get on the learning curve cheaply and easily. Once one starts actually printing, the issues here will have more context and make more sense." This is good advice, and the C86 is a great way to get started. If you already have a 2200 then Black Only (BO) is an easy and inexpensive way to get started, or QTR with its provided curves if you want to get into that approach. If you want a full ink method (not BO) on a 13" printer without dealing with a RIP and curves and all that, then the 2400 is highly recommended. For instructions for BO on the 2200 or R200, or the 2400 without profiles and color management, there are some How-To articles at the link below. It doesn't have to be complicated. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2005-10-08 by sburger104@aol.com
Dave, I don't think enough credit is given to the Epson 2400. The profiles supplied are excellent. Black & White is as easy as it gets. The paper feed for heavy matte papers is greatly improved over the 2200. But most of all their new ink is exceptional. I own A 2200 with a Continuos ink system from MIS with Ut7 inks and love it. I just bought a 2400 and the shadow richness and detail are superior to the UT7 inkset. I know money is always a consideration, but If it's not, my choice would be for the 2400. The Eboni black ink on the 2200 yields a great d-max, but the extra black ink on the 2400 makes a big difference in the shadow detail, while maintaing a rich black. Steve Burger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-10-08 by Jeff Medkeff
Clayton Jones wrote: > I add my voice to what Paul and Richard have said, especially this: > > Paul: "I recommend people get on the learning curve cheaply and > easily. Once one starts actually printing, the issues here will > have more context and make more sense." > > This is good advice, and the C86 is a great way to get started. If > you already have a 2200 then Black Only (BO) is an easy and > inexpensive way to get started, or QTR with its provided curves if you > want to get into that approach. I concur with Paul and Clayton. I have fifteen years of experience with digital imaging, and almost a decade at color inkjet printing, but six months ago I had strictly entry-level theoretical knowledge of B&W inkjet printing, and no actual experience. Although I have a 2200, I decided to forgo BO in favor of exploring third party insets and trying to learn what was involved in getting good results from a system and process I found somewhat mysterious. So I bought a C86. Six months later, I can say that what is spoken of on this group makes a great deal more sense to me than it did when I was just reading peoples' summaries, and I think I'm in a much better position to figure out what is likely to work for me, and not. -- Jeff Medkeff Eagle River, Alaska
2005-10-08 by mastedward
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "davedoughman" <davedoughman@y...> wrote: > > I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make > great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or > without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more > confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage > of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include > ImagePrint? > > I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate > profiles. > > Dave > Dave, I have WindowsXP and the Epson 2200 and C86 and make (I think) wonderful b&w prints with both. (Never made a "perfect" b&w print in the darkroom and don't expect to on the inkjet printer). When I first downloaded QTR for the 2200, I was unable to use it (I am not skilled with computers), so I bought the C86 and MIS inks and produced very nice b&w prints right out ot the box. Then someone told me to try QTR again and how to use it, and that it was quite simple. I downloaded it again - perhaps a newer and more user- friendly version - and found it to be quite simple indeed. Certainly worth $50! I know nothing about curves or profiles - use what ever came with the Epson printers or with the QTR program. But, as Paul says, the C86 with MIS inks is unmatched for economy and simplicity. But also try the 2200 with black-ink-only; you may find you love that. Try both 1440 dpi and 2880 dpi to see which you like best. Good luck, Edward
2005-10-08 by rgoldman2
In my experience you can make excellent black and white prints using UltraChrome Inks and the Advanced Black and White (ABW) feature of the Epson driver printing with PhotoBlack Ink on Epson Premium Semi Matte paper. This is an RC type paper not cotton. And I am printing on a 4800, not a 2400. However, the 2400 uses the same driver with ABW (which is why I am responding to your question), but Premium Semi Matte is only available in large sheets or rolls. You would have to cut (and waste) a lot to make it fit the 2400 feeder. Also, my guess is that the very good Epson profile for the PSM is not available for the 2400. I might be wrong about that, however. There are very good alternative papers that are made for the 2400.Read Clayton Jones' essays about a workflow for good (maybe excellent -- I don't know) black and white prints on the cotton papers using matte black ink on the 2400. I guess is that these prints look very good but lack a certain richness or depth. But you, as do many others, my find the look quite pleasing. Jones until recently was using the black only printing technique on the 2200 (see below), but he seems now to be using the full Epson ink set on his 2400 without a third party rip. (see message 68027 and his website). You do not need a third party RIP to make excellent prints on the 2400, because the ABW feature is a great improvement over the driver in the 2200. But as Steve Kale points out on this forum the QuadToneRip new feature called ICC Create can be used to improve even these ABW prints (see messages 68030 and 68248). Also see Roy Harrington's website about QTR called quadtonerip.com. With the 2200, my experience was that the UltraChrome inks could be used to make quite good black and white prints, using the matte black ink on cotton paper. But a third party RIP was essential. I used QuadToneRip, and I was a very satisfied customer. But I am much happier with the rich prints I am getting on PSM paper using ABW. This is a very strong argument for the 2400 over the 2200. I will go back to the cotton papers soon, because they have a fine look of their own, and I want to see how the new Epson driver handles them on my 4800. Your other alternative on the 2200 is to use the dedicated grey scale ink sets made by MIS (see Paul Roark's website)or Cone (inkjetmall.com). Again, printing on cotton paper. The 2200 with almost any setup produced problematic prints on glosssy paper. Maybe using ImagePrint did a better job of it, I don't know. Finally, on the 2200, you have the option, documented and developed by Clayton Jones, of printing with just the black ink -- either the UltraChrome matte black or Eboni black made by MIS, which many seem to prefer. My own view is that the 2400 is a better printer (a really good printer) compared with the 2200 for making black and white prints, whether it be on cotton paper with MK ink or on semi matte (or Costco Glossy) using PK. No additional rip necessary, but perhaps even better results by employing QTR ICC Create. You can search this site for all of the proper nouns I've referred to here to get more information.
2005-10-08 by Clayton Jones
Hello Rgoldman2, Thanks for a good overview and for including mention of my articles. I am disturbed by one thing, however, and that is you make a "guess" at something and then infer that a technique produces lower quality prints based on that guess. I refer specifically to this, referring >to the 2400 workflow article: >"I guess is that these prints look very good but lack a certain >richness or depth. But you, as do many others, my find the >look quite pleasing." It really would be more helpful to forum readers only to post things based on actual experience. My own experience is that these prints have exceptionally good richness and depth, in fact, they are as good or better than I've seen from any system that uses all the color inks to make BW. Since you have a 4800, how about trying this workflow next time you use MK on matte paper and then report your results. >Jones until recently was using the black only printing technique >on the 2200 (see below), but he seems now to be using the full >Epson ink set on his 2400 without a third party rip (see message >68027 and his website). Actually I still use BO along with the 2400 for full ink prints. For prints that work well with it, Eboni BO prints have a beautiful glow and intensity that, IMO, can't be beat by any full ink system I've seen yet. But it's also true that some images don't work well with BO, and all along I've been experimenting with various multi-ink aproaches for those, the most recent up until the 2440 being UT7 and some variants. My general approach is to work up proofs in BO, and if it's one of those that doesn't work well then I switch to the 2400. >My own view is that the 2400 is a better printer (a really good >printer) compared with the 2200 for making black and white prints, Agreed. My respect for the 2400 continues to grow. It's really a beautifully engineered machine (and I'm sure that includes all the models) and huge development in the industry. As someone else said the other day, it's the first OEM out of the box solution for good BW. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2005-10-08 by rgoldman2
Clayton, I do agree with you. The post would have been better (very marginally) without the conjecture. But in my defense, I think the conjecture was pretty well qualified. I did suggest that the prints you are making now on the 2400 might, in fact, be "excellent". I am looking forward to using MK in my 4800, pretty much along the lines that you suggest. My conjecture was based, really, on my experience with the 2200 printing on Moab Entrada with UC ink and QTR. I really did like the look, but at the same time I wanted some of my prints to have, for lack of a better word, a richness that seemed not attainable on cotton paper with MK. I think that soon I am just going to have to force myself to go through the flushing routine and pop in an MK cartridge. Cheers Richard Richardhgoldman.com
2005-10-08 by Scott McLoughlin
Another vote for the C86 and MIS EZ inks. Works like a charm using Paul's slider settings and a pretty wide variety of papers. Great OBE (Out of the Box Experience). I also have a 2200 which I use BO with Kayenta and QTR with EEM (I'll give EPSG a whirl once my MK cartridge runs out - I have high hopes there). But generally, the C86 and Kirkland paper get's most of my printing time these days. It's cheap, very easy and the results are pretty darned good. Scott Paul Roark wrote:
> It's definitely easy to get confused reading this list. On the other > hand, > note how many people have a cheap C86 with the EZ MIS inks and get > great B&W > prints with no instruments, no color management, no rip, and not much > money > spent. > > I recommend people get on the learning curve cheaply and easily. Once one > starts actually printing, the issues here will have more context and make > more sense. Although I have 5 printers within sight in my office, > including > 2 large formats and a 2400, the C86 with MIS EZ-N ink is the printer > that is > used the most. 99% of people cannot tell the difference between a C86 > print > and one made on the most expensive system. There is no inkjet system that > can make a more archival print than the C86. > > See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-EZ-UT-Readme.htm for more > information > on the C86, and http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm for an index > of the > other printer setups I've used recently. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com > > >
2005-10-08 by BKPhoto@aol.com
I picked up this thread a little late (had to watch the UT/OK football game today) but wanted to second (or third) Paul's suggestion. The C86 and EZ inks are an excellent and inexpensive starting point for dedicated grayscale printing. We have a digital lab where students have access to two Epson 4000's and one 4800. Each fall semester I teach a digital darkroom class; these are students who've already taken several digital imaging classes and want to concentrate on inkjet printmaking. I have every student purchase their own C86 printer (its on their course supply list). I started doing this as a way to encourage the same sense of ownership they experience in the wet darkroom. It makes the digital printing process less objective and more tactile. They learn the "care and feeding" of their own machine and use the small printers to master basic printing workflows (including print profile authoring with an EyeOne kit). They use the larger printers for mid-term and final portfolio work. I demo both BIO (black ink only) and the EZ inks in class. About half, those interested primarily in grayscale printing, purchase a second C86 (they find them for around $40.00 on sale; less than the cost of many Photoshop textbooks). I consider the C86/EZ inks a minor miracle. Bill Kennedy Austin, Texas
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 08:29:19 -0700
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W
Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer
It's definitely easy to get confused reading this list. On the
other hand,
note how many people have a cheap C86 with the EZ MIS inks and get
great B&W
prints with no instruments, no color management, no rip, and not much
money
spent.
I recommend people get on the learning curve cheaply and easily. Once
one
starts actually printing, the issues here will have more context and
make
more sense. Although I have 5 printers within sight in my office,
including
2 large formats and a 2400, the C86 with MIS EZ-N ink is the printer
that is
used the most. 99% of people cannot tell the difference between a C86
print
and one made on the most expensive system. There is no inkjet system
that
can make a more archival print than the C86.
See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-EZ-UT-Readme.htm for more
information
on the C86, and http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm for an index of
the
other printer setups I've used recently.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> davedoughman
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 6:09 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W
Print -
> Can It Be Made on a Computer
>
> I've been monitoring this group thinking some day I'd like to make
> great B&W prints on my Epson 2200 or 2400 using WindowsXP with or
> without QuadTone RIP or other software. But the more I read the more
> confusing it seems. Can anyone summerize the advantages/disadvantage
> of any or each of the major systems to print great B&W to include
> ImagePrint?
>
> I'm a hobbist and don't have the instruments to read/create accurate
> profiles.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same
> page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
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Yahoo! Groups Links2005-10-08 by Clayton Jones
Hello Richard, >Clayton, I do agree with you. The post would have been better >(very marginally) without the conjecture. But in my defense, I >think the conjecture was pretty well qualified... Understood. >My conjecture was based, really, on my experience with the 2200 >printing on Moab Entrada with UC ink and QTR. I really did like >the look, but at the same time I wanted some of my prints to have, >for lack of a better word, a richness that seemed not attainable >on cotton paper with MK. I think that soon I am just going to have >to force myself to go through the flushing routine and pop in an MK >cartridge. I hope when you do you will try something besides Entrada. When I tested it for the "Great Paper Chase" review one of the things I noted was it lacked "depth" compared to other papers, in fact, it got a "C" rating. Here's a quote from the review: "...Entrada looks a bit dull and flat compared to the others. It lacks the "depth" that the better papers have." I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with what K3 with MK will do on the better papers. Speaking of matte paper dmax... SET PREDICTION MODE ON I think everyone agrees that the K3 printers are an important milestone in the industry. We finally have an excellent out-of-the-box BW solution. We also have long lasting pigments with good color gamut, and good dmax on glossy papers. Now that these milestones have been reached, further advances in these areas will likely be more incremental. It is my personal feeling that the next really big breakthrough will be in matte paper dmax. I know it's being worked on. I can't predict how long it will take, but I do believe strongly that someday we'll have what we want. It's just a matter of time. SET PREDICTION MODE OFF In the meantime we can all have fun trying and learning new things. It's amazing how far we've come in the last four years. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2005-10-09 by Chris Hargens
What with all the talk concerning/comparing different printers, inksets, etc., I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has printed with both the 2200 using the UC inkset with QTR and the 2400 in ABW mode -- on matte paper. Is the 2400 ABW noticeably better, and if so, in what ways? Chris Hargens
2005-10-09 by john dean
That's a good question. I think we may entering an era where we were 20 years ago in the g. silver darkroom - where some people prefered Ilford, some Agfa, some Kodak, and some Oriental, and they were all good in their own ways for their own characteristics. I see that happening now in inkjet. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens" <chargens@s...> wrote:
> > What with all the talk concerning/comparing different printers, > inksets, etc., I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has > printed with both the 2200 using the UC inkset with QTR and the 2400 in > ABW mode -- on matte paper. Is the 2400 ABW noticeably better, and if > so, in what ways? > > Chris Hargens >
2005-10-09 by Steve Kale
I would echo what Clayton is saying here. One thing you might want to do relatively immediately is to change from Epson MK ink to MIS Eboni. It performs much better than Epson MK on the heavier matte papers. I would say the two key areas for development in the near future for B&W printing will be ICC colour management and a new MK ink as Clayton suggests. The former is coming along with the work of Roy Harrington. I agree with him when he says that this is the missing link in Epson's latest solution. As to the second, I do think we will see potentially vast improvements within a year.
> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...> > I think everyone agrees that the K3 printers are an important > milestone in the industry. We finally have an excellent > out-of-the-box BW solution. We also have long lasting pigments with > good color gamut, and good dmax on glossy papers. Now that these > milestones have been reached, further advances in these areas will > likely be more incremental. It is my personal feeling that the next > really big breakthrough will be in matte paper dmax.
2005-10-09 by Steve Kale
Hey Chros We've been through this before when the new printers came out. In short I do think there is a significant overall improvement. First and foremost, the Adv B&W solution is _dramatically_ easier to use. No mess no fuss. Out-of-the-box work is so much better. You had to really work on a 21/2200 to get decent output - say with a RIP like QTR. I would argue that unless you are worried about the use of yellow ink by Epson Adv B&W, you do not need the QTR print module for the 2400. The K3 inks are better on both photo paper (reduced bronzing and no gloss differential except where there is no ink and the reflectance of the paper differs from the inked areas) and matte paper (one more grey and better colour density for colour work). So at the OEM level it's a slam dunk improvement by the 2400, at the third party RIP/OEM ink level it's still a slam dunk improvement in terms of ease of use and ink, and only at the 3rd party inks/3rd party RIP level does the race become even close. Couple Epson Adv B&W with QTR ICC profile management and you've really got something that works well and easily. Of course from there you can start playing with dedicated inks and all that sort of stuff but.... Cheers Steve
> From: Chris Hargens <chargens@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:22:05 -0000 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Digital BW] 2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW > > What with all the talk concerning/comparing different printers, > inksets, etc., I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has > printed with both the 2200 using the UC inkset with QTR and the 2400 in > ABW mode -- on matte paper. Is the 2400 ABW noticeably better, and if > so, in what ways? > > Chris Hargens
2005-10-09 by Chris Hargens
Thanks, Steve, for your summary of the advantages of the 2400 with Epson Adv B&W over the 2200 running QTR. Since I seldom print on glossy paper and since I'm comfortable using QTR, the key questions for me are 1) On matte paper, how much better are the 2400 black and gray inks? and 2) Again on matte paper, how much of a difference do users find printing with the 2400's three grays over printing with the 2200's two -- e.g., significant improvement in tonality, reduced dots in highlights, better shadow detail? Chris Hargens --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote: > > Hey Chros > > We've been through this before when the new printers came out. In short I > do think there is a significant overall improvement. First and foremost, > the Adv B&W solution is _dramatically_ easier to use. No mess no fuss. > Out-of-the-box work is so much better. You had to really work on a 21/2200 > to get decent output - say with a RIP like QTR. I would argue that unless > you are worried about the use of yellow ink by Epson Adv B&W, you do not > need the QTR print module for the 2400. The K3 inks are better on both > photo paper (reduced bronzing and no gloss differential except where there > is no ink and the reflectance of the paper differs from the inked areas) and > matte paper (one more grey and better colour density for colour work). So > at the OEM level it's a slam dunk improvement by the 2400, at the third > party RIP/OEM ink level it's still a slam dunk improvement in terms of ease > of use and ink, and only at the 3rd party inks/3rd party RIP level does the > race become even close. Couple Epson Adv B&W with QTR ICC profile > management and you've really got something that works well and easily. Of > course from there you can start playing with dedicated inks and all that > sort of stuff but.... > > Cheers > > Steve > > > > From: Chris Hargens <chargens@s...> > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:22:05 -0000 > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [Digital BW] 2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW > > > > What with all the talk concerning/comparing different printers, > > inksets, etc., I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has > > printed with both the 2200 using the UC inkset with QTR and the 2400 in
> > ABW mode -- on matte paper. Is the 2400 ABW noticeably better, and if > > so, in what ways? > > > > Chris Hargens >
2005-10-09 by markfriedman1
Great thread as I'm considering the options to try my hand at black- only printing. Have read good testimonials about the C86, but Clayton's article recommends avoiding the C86 and using the R200. Both printers seem to be around the same price point. What are the differences between the C86 and R200? Any significant advantages or disadvantages of each for black-only use? Mark Friedman --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote: > > I picked up this thread a little late (had to watch the UT/OK football > game today) but wanted to second (or third) Paul's suggestion. The C86 > and EZ inks are an excellent and inexpensive starting point for > dedicated grayscale printing. > > We have a digital lab where students have access to two Epson 4000's > and one 4800. Each fall semester I teach a digital darkroom class; > these are students who've already taken several digital imaging classes > and want to concentrate on inkjet printmaking. I have every student > purchase their own C86 printer (its on their course supply list). I > started doing this as a way to encourage the same sense of ownership > they experience in the wet darkroom. It makes the digital printing > process less objective and more tactile. They learn the "care and > feeding" of their own machine and use the small printers to master > basic printing workflows (including print profile authoring with an > EyeOne kit). They use the larger printers for mid-term and final > portfolio work. > > I demo both BIO (black ink only) and the EZ inks in class. About half, > those interested primarily in grayscale printing, purchase a second C86 > (they find them for around $40.00 on sale; less than the cost of many
> Photoshop textbooks). > > I consider the C86/EZ inks a minor miracle. > > Bill Kennedy > Austin, Texas
2005-10-09 by John Moody
For black-only use, I look to Clayton and others, since I dont own a C86, nor have much experience with BO in general. On my particular R200 I think the drop size might be just a hair too small for the precision of the printer. I say this in comparison to BO on my 2200, but Im not using the same inks in both so its mostly conjecture on my part. For BW inksets: The C86 is well proven and has an EZ inkset available. While the R200 shows promise, inkset development is still in the development phase. Unless you enjoy the geek part of printer and RIP setup, I would go with the C86 and be assured of good results. Hopefully you read Pauls C86 EZ-UT page mentioned earlier in this thread. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of markfriedman1 Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 9:27 AM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Search for the Holy Grail - The Perfect B&W Print - Can It Be Made on a Computer Great thread as I'm considering the options to try my hand at black- only printing. Have read good testimonials about the C86, but Clayton's article recommends avoiding the C86 and using the R200. Both printers seem to be around the same price point. What are the differences between the C86 and R200? Any significant advantages or disadvantages of each for black-only use? Mark Friedman [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-10-09 by djon43
Superb summary! It's rare when someone both writes coherently and with the intention to be helpful (also applies to Clayton Jones). John Kelly --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "rgoldman2" <rgoldman@n...> wrote: > > In my experience you can make excellent black and white prints using UltraChrome Inks > and the Advanced Black and White (ABW) feature of the Epson driver printing with > PhotoBlack Ink on Epson Premium Semi Matte paper. This is an RC type paper not cotton. > And I am printing on a 4800, not a 2400. However, the 2400 uses the same driver with > ABW (which is why I am responding to your question), but Premium Semi Matte is only > available in large sheets or rolls. You would have to cut (and waste) a lot to make it fit the > 2400 feeder. Also, my guess is that the very good Epson profile for the PSM is not > available for the 2400. I might be wrong about that, however. > > There are very good alternative papers that are made for the 2400.Read Clayton Jones' > essays about a workflow for good (maybe excellent -- I don't know) black and white prints > on the cotton papers using matte black ink on the 2400. I guess is that these prints look > very good but lack a certain richness or depth. But you, as do many others, my find the > look quite pleasing. Jones until recently was using the black only printing technique on the > 2200 (see below), but he seems now to be using the full Epson ink set on his 2400 without > a third party rip. (see message 68027 and his website). > > You do not need a third party RIP to make excellent prints on the 2400, because the ABW > feature is a great improvement over the driver in the 2200. But as Steve Kale points out on > this forum the QuadToneRip new feature called ICC Create can be used to improve even > these ABW prints (see messages 68030 and 68248). Also see Roy Harrington's website > about QTR called quadtonerip.com. > > With the 2200, my experience was that the UltraChrome inks could be used to make quite > good black and white prints, using the matte black ink on cotton paper. But a third party > RIP was essential. I used QuadToneRip, and I was a very satisfied customer. But I am much > happier with the rich prints I am getting on PSM paper using ABW. This is a very strong > argument for the 2400 over the 2200. I will go back to the cotton papers soon, because > they have a fine look of their own, and I want to see how the new Epson driver handles > them on my 4800. > > Your other alternative on the 2200 is to use the dedicated grey scale ink sets made by MIS > (see Paul Roark's website)or Cone (inkjetmall.com). Again, printing on cotton paper. The > 2200 with almost > any setup produced problematic prints on glosssy paper. Maybe using ImagePrint did a > better job of it, I don't know. > > Finally, on the 2200, you have the option, documented and developed by Clayton Jones, of > printing with just the black ink -- either the UltraChrome matte black or Eboni black made > by MIS, which many seem to prefer. > > My own view is that the 2400 is a better printer (a really good printer) compared with the > 2200 for making black and white prints, whether it be on cotton paper with MK ink or on > semi matte (or Costco Glossy) using PK. No additional rip necessary, but perhaps even > better results by employing QTR ICC Create. > > You can search this site for all of the proper nouns I've referred to here to get more > information. >
2005-10-09 by David Keenan
>Agreed. My respect for the 2400 continues to grow. It's really a >beautifully engineered machine (and I'm sure that includes all the >models) and huge development in the industry. As someone else said >the other day, it's the first OEM out of the box solution for good BW. Clayton -- If one has a 2200 does your opinion of the 2400 suggest that an upgrade is worthwhile? Others with experience with both printers also please chime in. Dave. -- David Keenan, ausdlk@... on 10/9/2005
2005-10-09 by John Moody
Yes indeed! Gloss prints using the new MIS BW inks are remarkably better. This is new information, which can be applied to the 2200. The 2400 is still a better printer, but the gap has narrowed considerably with the new base UT7 for gloss/luster prints. If you also print color, then the 2400 is pretty much a no-brainer over the 2200. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of djon43 Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 10:10 AM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] The Perfect B&W Print ...R Goldman Superb summary! It's rare when someone both writes coherently and with the intention to be helpful (also applies to Clayton Jones). John Kelly [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-10-09 by Steve Kale
How good is your eye? Seriously, if you want to narrow things down that much and eliminate many of the advantages the 2400 has over the 21/2200 I suggest you get a few of your favourite images printed on each and see if YOU can see the difference and then decide if the differences YOU see are worth the YOUR cost of an upgrade. You are into the nitty gritty here and you really should come to your own opinion. Theoretically and practically the 2400 will be better on matte paper using QTR with the new inks. Is it enough to justify a purchase when you already have a 2200? Based on ease of use and paper flexibility I would say absolutely yes but you've taken those considerations off the table. You've now got to see for yourself.
> From: Chris Hargens <chargens@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:26:42 -0000 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 2200 QTR vs 2400 ABW > > Thanks, Steve, for your summary of the advantages of the 2400 with > Epson Adv B&W over the 2200 running QTR. Since I seldom print on > glossy paper and since I'm comfortable using QTR, the key questions > for me are 1) On matte paper, how much better are the 2400 black and > gray inks? and 2) Again on matte paper, how much of a difference do > users find printing with the 2400's three grays over printing with the > 2200's two -- e.g., significant improvement in tonality, reduced dots > in highlights, better shadow detail? > > Chris Hargens >
2005-10-09 by Clayton Jones
Hello Dave, >If one has a 2200 does your opinion of the 2400 suggest that an >upgrade is worthwhile? That's hard to answer. As a general statement I'd say if you're happy with the results you're getting then stick with the 2200. If you're unhappy or have an itch to try something new then it's a fine way to go. But it's an expensive machine ($850) so it certainly would require some consideration. I don't know how you're using your 2200, but one thing to consider is that the 2400 won't be only a K3 printer for very long. QTR already works with it, and carts are available for it, which means one could, for example, put UT7 inks in it right now if getting away from the color ink dots is important. Someday MIS will likely have a grayscale inkset for it that will work with the ABW interface - just dial up the tone you want, so it won't be limited to the color ink dot approach. So before too long it will be a printer of multiple options. Some other things: The 2400 is quieter and faster than the 2200, and I really like the ABW tone system because it provides an easy way to have very fine control. It also looks nice <g>. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm