Digital BW, The Print

Thanks for your input.
As I said I'm a newbie in RIPs (as in many other fields BTW).

To John regarding QTR, I use it (very happily) on a 1290-Piezo and I 
hope Roy will soon support the 4800. If not at least I can use the BW 
ICC. It's a matter of testing against ABW. I suspect 2400/4800 and up 
lay down some color inks when in ABW ; I'm not yet sure and I'm going 
to an Epson so-called training session in 10 days : since it will be 
Epson product demo session, I'll find out.

I believe my understanding of a RIP ranks from minimal to unexisting.

As a starting point, I'm disappointed somehow with the Pulse soft : I 
did not realise that it would not linearise or more precisely setting 
ink limit : I have fine/acceptable colors on a 1800 but terrible 
shadows overloaded with ink specially on EEM.

The X-rite support informed me that upgrading to Monaco Profiler will 
linearise the printer and solve the ink limit issue : I just think 
there's a misunderstanding there. I can't imagine a profile limiting 
ink. It seems I'd be supposed to get addtional controls of the Black 
generation... but I doubt on ink limit control : I may well be wrong 
here. I need to dig a bit more unless you have some advise on a more 
powerful (an awfully expensive) profiler as a solution. 

Since I' have been using QTR, I'm basically seeking something 
comparable for color worklow with possibly some additional features. 
Meaning I'd like to be able to set ink limit, linearise the channels, 
improve dithering and/or interpolation, and then of course produce 
more accurate color profiles.

How extravagant are these expectations for a non-pro : I can't 
assess. But if I'm to get a 4800 this is the kind of issues I 
currently considering.

I took a look at Colorburst (quite quickly the Pro version since it 
includes CMYK profiling capacity) and this seemed to offer these 
features for what I assume to be a fair price though it remains a 
considerable apount of $ and though it will not support the small 
1800 but I could eventually dedicate it to only gloss "small" prints 
since I'm happy with both rendering and profiling ability on glossy 
papers. If there's a comprehensive RIP that would drive both the 1800 
and 4800 I'd be VERY happy.

A final thought is about the learning curve to properly use a RIP : 
is this realistic for a simple amateur.

This is where I am : I believe I started to post too early before 
digging a bit more for info on the web and from suppliers.

If you feel like adding comments, I'd be grateful while I'll 
perfectly understand a get-more-basic-info-before-posting reply (or 
no reply).

Thanks again for your initial help.

Olivier

> From: Olivier <odesmais@...>

> 
> Thanks for your input.
> As I said I'm a newbie in RIPs (as in many other fields BTW).
> 
> To John regarding QTR, I use it (very happily) on a 1290-Piezo and I
> hope Roy will soon support the 4800.

It is supported

>If not at least I can use the BW
> ICC. It's a matter of testing against ABW. I suspect 2400/4800 and up
> lay down some color inks when in ABW ;

Of course they do.  It's the only way to tone the 3K.  So does QTR.  The
only difference is the use of yellow ink by Epson (and not by the 4800 QTR
curves I did)

>I'm not yet sure and I'm going
> to an Epson so-called training session in 10 days : since it will be
> Epson product demo session, I'll find out.
> 
> I believe my understanding of a RIP ranks from minimal to unexisting.
> 
> As a starting point, I'm disappointed somehow with the Pulse soft : I
> did not realise that it would not linearise or more precisely setting
> ink limit : I have fine/acceptable colors on a 1800 but terrible
> shadows overloaded with ink specially on EEM.
> 
> The X-rite support informed me that upgrading to Monaco Profiler will
> linearise the printer and solve the ink limit issue : I just think
> there's a misunderstanding there. I can't imagine a profile limiting
> ink. It seems I'd be supposed to get addtional controls of the Black
> generation... but I doubt on ink limit control : I may well be wrong
> here. I need to dig a bit more unless you have some advise on a more
> powerful (an awfully expensive) profiler as a solution.
> 
> Since I' have been using QTR, I'm basically seeking something
> comparable for color worklow with possibly some additional features.
> Meaning I'd like to be able to set ink limit, linearise the channels,
> improve dithering and/or interpolation, and then of course produce
> more accurate color profiles.
> 
> How extravagant are these expectations for a non-pro : I can't
> assess. But if I'm to get a 4800 this is the kind of issues I
> currently considering.

I would find it hard to justify an expensive colour rip for a non pro.
Definitely test them thoroughly first before piling your money on the
counter.

> 
> I took a look at Colorburst (quite quickly the Pro version since it
> includes CMYK profiling capacity) and this seemed to offer these
> features for what I assume to be a fair price though it remains a
> considerable apount of $ and though it will not support the small
> 1800 but I could eventually dedicate it to only gloss "small" prints
> since I'm happy with both rendering and profiling ability on glossy
> papers. If there's a comprehensive RIP that would drive both the 1800
> and 4800 I'd be VERY happy.
> 
> A final thought is about the learning curve to properly use a RIP :
> is this realistic for a simple amateur.
> 
> This is where I am : I believe I started to post too early before
> digging a bit more for info on the web and from suppliers.
> 
> If you feel like adding comments, I'd be grateful while I'll
> perfectly understand a get-more-basic-info-before-posting reply (or
> no reply).
> 
> Thanks again for your initial help.
> 
> Olivier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" 
<odesmais@y...> wrote:

I would have just added to Steve's post, but I wanted to insert some 
comments in a different part of this message.

> 
> As a starting point, I'm disappointed somehow with the Pulse soft : 
I 
> did not realise that it would not linearise or more precisely 
setting 
> ink limit : I have fine/acceptable colors on a 1800 but terrible 
> shadows overloaded with ink specially on EEM.

This is normal for the RGB profiles that you are making. They do not 
have ink limiting for these printers, and do not have linearization 
for these printers. Those features can only be done for true RGB 
devices like a LightJet printer.

> 
> The X-rite support informed me that upgrading to Monaco Profiler 
will 
> linearise the printer and solve the ink limit issue : I just think 
> there's a misunderstanding there. I can't imagine a profile 
limiting 
> ink. It seems I'd be supposed to get addtional controls of the 
Black 
> generation... but I doubt on ink limit control : I may well be 
wrong 
> here. I need to dig a bit more unless you have some advise on a 
more 
> powerful (an awfully expensive) profiler as a solution. 

This upgrade will not help you with the R1800! Your key problem with 
that machine is too much ink on the paper. A change of driver 
settings should correct that. The CMYK profiles that Xrite is 
suggesting will not work unless you have a RIP attached to the 
printer! There is nothing available for the 1800. CMYK profiles do 
offer a profile based linearization, and ink limiting, as well as 
control of the black generation, etc. Profiler is a very good 
application, the only downside is its lack of recognizing optical 
brighteners in paper, and the ability to correct for that in the 
software. You need to use hardware to filter the extra UV coming from 
those papers.

> 
> Since I' have been using QTR, I'm basically seeking something 
> comparable for color worklow with possibly some additional 
features. 
> Meaning I'd like to be able to set ink limit, linearise the 
channels, 
> improve dithering and/or interpolation, and then of course produce 
> more accurate color profiles.
> 
> How extravagant are these expectations for a non-pro : I can't 
> assess. But if I'm to get a 4800 this is the kind of issues I 
> currently considering.

If you want to spend the money, and invest the time to learn what you 
need to do, the results can be very rewarding. You wouldn't need to 
fear changing to a third party ink with the thoughts that the colors 
won't match. You would be able to correct them very easily within the 
RIP and profiles. If you used a neutral black like Eboni or the set 
that WeInk sells (and the set that MIS will sell), then you could 
make B/W prints that do not use color inks to trim out the neutrality 
(over simplification, there will be less color inks used depending on 
paper color, etc.). But as others have said, you need to try the 
driver first, you might be surprised with what you can do. Linearity 
and ink limiting have been reworked for the 4800, it's even beter 
than the 2400. The profiles I've made for a couple of 2400's have 
show much improvement over printers like the 1800. Linearity and 
limits seem to be right on without any fussing with the driver. The 
4800 is supposed to be better.


> 
> A final thought is about the learning curve to properly use a RIP : 
> is this realistic for a simple amateur.

All depends on the amount of work you want to put into it, and the 
amount of money you want to throw at it. Be prepared to throw a lot 
of ink and paper into the learning process, and I do mean a lot. And 
you can't learn everything on just cheap paper either. The good 
papers respond in different ways, and you'll need to learn how this 
may change your set up. After you get a good grip on things, then you 
might want to consider trying different inks to see how that effects 
your results. Not to mention all the different ways you can use the 
features of the profile making application to change the way the 
print looks, some of this will be less important with the 3 black 
inks in the 4800.

There are many discussions about profiling and other color work at 
http://www.dpreview.com in the forums (particularly in the printer 
and printing forum). You might want to spend a little time looking 
around over there. I'm sure others will be able to suggest a couple 
other places to visit too.

Well that's a lot of goodwill and understanding that is shown here, 
thanks again guys.

Starting by reposning to Steve, I did not yet noticed the 4800 was 
supported, it's good news. Meanwhile I precisely do not want any colors 
or toning in my BW prints : I'm quite happy with the piezotone and QTR 
rendering and the 4800 if used for BW will have to only use gray inks 
of the K3 (though I can not yet assess wether 3 parts of gray are 
enough for a smooth grayscale with non-visible dots).

Greg, thanks to you too.

I have learnt to my detriment that's the Pulse has a limited soft. I 
rushed to get one and regret it today (though it's very esay to use... 
maybe too much).

I can not figure out how a change in driver settings could possibly 
solve the ink limit problem. The way I learnt it was that I had to turn 
basically everything off in Epson driver to create the profile. I'll 
try to find out.

I understood from your explanation that only CMYK RIP+ CMYK profile can 
limit ink : which makes sense since the combination will control the 
ink channel. As you said I have not found a 1800 RIP (except QTR but 
for BW).

OB is soft-treated by GM, not any X-rite product : to add to my pain I 
of course took the UV-filtered Pulse... so no chance for me to benefit 
from this feature anyway.

Now the part of much interest for me. I'm frankly not planning to move 
to 3rd part ink for the 4800 (unless I can find a real benefit that can 
only be judged by tests...and advises)and of course at the time being. 
Though I may consider another K as you rightly mentionned. However, If 
the 4800 is so well set out of the box and I find a way in the driver 
to limit the 1800 ink overload (and on the 4800 if the new K shows the 
same issue) then I'm on my way to easier printing. 

I don't have an issue on paper and ink testing as long as they are 
Epson ones : I get them very cheap (up to a certain extend). I have 
more concerns in buying the softs (whether profilers or RIPS)and 
getting wrong : I have the bad Pulse experience that I'd not like to 
repeat. I'm ready to spend a significant time on learning this. Not 
being a pro, I don't make money out of it nor do I need to. So it's 
only leisure, I can afford the time and some spare cash if well spent.

Thanks for the link, I know the site but I did not go to it for a 
while. I'll be hunting for information there.

Olivier

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" 
<odesmais@y...> wrote:
Just to follow up on this, the Pulse system is a pretty good system. 
It has some limitations, but does work pretty well, and the UV 
filtered spectro just means you don't have to mess around deciding if 
a paper has OBA or not, just scan and go.

As to changing the ink limits for your 1800, just change the paper 
type until you find one that works better. Most fine art papers work 
well with the "enhanced matte" driver setting, but you might also 
want to try the "water color radiant white" setting too. If you make 
an image with patches that have the following values:
RGB
0,0,0
5,5,5
10,10,10
15,15,15
20,20,20

What you want to do is make sure that the RGB 000 patch is the 
darkest. When too much ink gets put down, you might have the RGB 
10,10,10 as the darkest patch, and that can mess up your profile and 
cause the near black tones to be crushed into black. After that your 
Pulse system should produce some very good profiles.

If you get a 4800, you will not have excess ink problems with Epson paper,
and unlikely to on most of the others that we use.

Some of the older epson drivers had excess ink loading when using “no ICM”.
Read all about getting around the problem by using color controls at
drycreekphoto.com under printing a profile target.
Profiles that I have created for my 2200 using color controls have better
tonal transition, but smaller gamuts than ones with “no ICM”.  Even though
the gamut is smaller, the prints do not appear to be lacking color
“saturation”  I have profiles for both settings and select based on the
image content.

This being a BW list, we don’t care much about color gamut, so the raging
concern over limited gamuts by using color controls is somewhat a non-issue.
I would use the color controls option in the printer driver with at least
one non-zero value as explained at drycreekphoto.com to achieve the ink
limiting you are looking for.

If you really have the cash to burn, the colorGPS CMYK profiler that goes
with the latest ErgoSoft RIP is very good; very smooth perceptual intent
handling of out of gamut colors.  That, and the Evolution RIP were my
favorites when I wasted so much time evaluating them all.  If I had a 4800
with OEM inks, I would use the Epson driver with Qimage; hard to improve the
output quality with any RIP, maybe impossible.  I would love to hear if
someone has found a way; especially the black dots of a black-red ramp.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Olivier
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 10:53 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Greg- 4800 RIP + Steve

Well that's a lot of goodwill and understanding that is shown here,
thanks again guys.

Starting by reposning to Steve, I did not yet noticed the 4800 was
supported, it's good news. Meanwhile I precisely do not want any colors
or toning in my BW prints : I'm quite happy with the piezotone and QTR
rendering and the 4800 if used for BW will have to only use gray inks
of the K3 (though I can not yet assess wether 3 parts of gray are
enough for a smooth grayscale with non-visible dots).

Greg, thanks to you too.

I have learnt to my detriment that's the Pulse has a limited soft. I
rushed to get one and regret it today (though it's very esay to use...
maybe too much).

I can not figure out how a change in driver settings could possibly
solve the ink limit problem. The way I learnt it was that I had to turn
basically everything off in Epson driver to create the profile. I'll
try to find out.

I understood from your explanation that only CMYK RIP+ CMYK profile can
limit ink : which makes sense since the combination will control the
ink channel. As you said I have not found a 1800 RIP (except QTR but
for BW).

OB is soft-treated by GM, not any X-rite product : to add to my pain I
of course took the UV-filtered Pulse... so no chance for me to benefit
from this feature anyway.

Now the part of much interest for me. I'm frankly not planning to move
to 3rd part ink for the 4800 (unless I can find a real benefit that can
only be judged by tests...and advises)and of course at the time being.
Though I may consider another K as you rightly mentionned. However, If
the 4800 is so well set out of the box and I find a way in the driver
to limit the 1800 ink overload (and on the 4800 if the new K shows the
same issue) then I'm on my way to easier printing.

I don't have an issue on paper and ink testing as long as they are
Epson ones : I get them very cheap (up to a certain extend). I have
more concerns in buying the softs (whether profilers or RIPS)and
getting wrong : I have the bad Pulse experience that I'd not like to
repeat. I'm ready to spend a significant time on learning this. Not
being a pro, I don't make money out of it nor do I need to. So it's
only leisure, I can afford the time and some spare cash if well spent.

Thanks for the link, I know the site but I did not go to it for a
while. I'll be hunting for information there.

Olivier











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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for all the below.
I took me some time to find the Drycreekphoto instruction : it's in 
fact in the download.

Reading it carefully I assume your refer to the 1290 advise applied 
to the 2200 driver. The annoyance with the 1800 is that you don't 
have a so-called color control to set to automatic. You have Epson 
calibration and can set either "Standard Epson" (which maybe the one) 
something I'll translate in "Bright/lively Color Epson" and "Adobe 
RV" (which also could be a second option).

I'll look a bit more on the web to find the appropriate trick.

I'd be reluctant to lose gamut for color printing but it's a 
compromise between saturation and details (vs smudging which I 
confirm is an issue on a 1800). I believe I'll go for...smudging up 
to the very last acceptable point. I often try to use relative 
rending is out-of-gamut colors are not plenty and thus editable. This 
gives some extra saturation that I lose with perceptual. I think the 
way it is BW printing is about fine contrast while color printing is 
about saturation and fine hue.

Regarding Ergosoft the one you refer to is probably Posterprint : I 
have not seen that the 4800 is supported but vers. 11.0.4.2219 seems 
to support the Pulse. It looks like for the 17" 4800 the price with 
no postscrip is about $850. Meanwhile Epson apparently refers in the 
pro 4800 (should I feel it's not for me ?) to Colorburst ... As for 
Evolution I couldn't identify neither the price nor if there's a 
profiling ability.

Well I also take for granted your information that all is needed with 
the 4800 is Qimage to deliver quality... 

I'll keep on looking for more information on the web.
Thanks for your input.

Olivier

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" 
<odesmais@y...> wrote:
> pro 4800 (should I feel it's not for me ?) to Colorburst ... As for 
> Evolution I couldn't identify neither the price nor if there's a 
> profiling ability.
> 
Price for the Evolution Lite version is $500 USD (up to 17 inches 
wide), to get profiling added in you need to go with the full Evolution 
RIP which is somewhere in the $2000+ range. I don't really recommend 
going with the profiling provided by any RIP. Yes some are very good, 
but you can do the same by buying a seperate profiling application. The 
Evolution RIP does work with the Pulse spectro.