Digital BW, The Print

I am in the process of upgrading from the Epson 2100 to the 2400. I 
am aware that both printers use the same matte black ink which 
worries me a little. I mostly printed using Lyson's quad black inkset 
on the 2100 and the blacks were deep and satisfying though there were 
other problems.
I was less satisfied with the blacks I achieved using the supplied 
Epson ultrachrome inks on Epson matte media. The prints had 
a "newspaper like" quality as a result of an insufficient tonal range 
despite a full range of tones in Photoshop ( "0" to about "240"). 
These images look fine under glass but were inferior to darkroom 
prints in the hand. I suspect the paper I used may not have been the 
best -- Epson "watercolor" and "Heavyweight matte". I was also using 
the standard Epson printer driver.
Can I expect better blacks using different matte papers? Would using 
Ray Harrington's QTR have any bearing? Am I right in thinking some 
people use MIS eboni black instead of the Epson Ultrachrome matte 
black in their 2100 printers? Should I try this when it becomes 
available for the 2400?
Incidentially the samples of Piezography K7 prints done on a 2100 
show a similarly weak black.
I would be very grateful for any advice or recommendations.
Regards, Pete.

> From: petexp2 <kafoozalem@...>

> 
> I am in the process of upgrading from the Epson 2100 to the 2400. I
> am aware that both printers use the same matte black ink which
> worries me a little. I mostly printed using Lyson's quad black inkset
> on the 2100 and the blacks were deep and satisfying though there were
> other problems.
> I was less satisfied with the blacks I achieved using the supplied
> Epson ultrachrome inks on Epson matte media. The prints had
> a "newspaper like" quality as a result of an insufficient tonal range
> despite a full range of tones in Photoshop ( "0" to about "240").
> These images look fine under glass but were inferior to darkroom
> prints in the hand. I suspect the paper I used may not have been the
> best -- Epson "watercolor" and "Heavyweight matte". I was also using
> the standard Epson printer driver.
> Can I expect better blacks using different matte papers?

Perhaps a little but not much.

>Would using 
> Ray Harrington's QTR have any bearing?

No not significantly

>Am I right in thinking some
> people use MIS eboni black instead of the Epson Ultrachrome matte
> black in their 2100 printers? Should I try this when it becomes
> available for the 2400?

Yes.  It will improve dMax by up to 10% on the thicker "fine art" papers.
It is ever so slightly weaker on EEM/EAM.

If you really want the same sort of dynamic range (or better) that is
achievable in traditional printing then try the new inks (with PK) on Epson
Preium Semigloss/matte paper.

Hello Pete,

>I suspect the paper I used may not have been the 
>best -- Epson "watercolor" and "Heavyweight matte". 
>I would be very grateful for any advice or recommendations.

You might get a bit more dmax out of some different papers.  Epson
Velvet Fine Art, Hahnemuhle PhotoRag, and Red River Dourian Art all
have the highest dmax ratings among matte papers (the "Great Paper
Chase" article at the link below has a comparison of 25 matte papers).
 And yes, using Eboni will help a bit too.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Thanks Steve,
Very useful information. When I get the printer I will certainly test 
it with semi gloss (semi matte seems to only come in 30 metre lengths 
in UK ). For fine art prints I will test Velvet paper and when it 
becomes available I will have the option of eboni black. Is eboni 
black entirely compatible with the epson inks for colour printing? 
Does the use of eboni black present any problems if I use the 
Harrington RIP for it's soft proofing ability?
I guess I set high standards for Dmax since I used to selenium tone 
my fibre based wet prints.
Regards, Pete.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> > From: petexp2 <kafoozalem@b...>
> 
> > 
> > I am in the process of upgrading from the Epson 2100 to the 2400. 
I
> > am aware that both printers use the same matte black ink which
> > worries me a little. I mostly printed using Lyson's quad black 
inkset
> > on the 2100 and the blacks were deep and satisfying though there 
were
> > other problems.
> > I was less satisfied with the blacks I achieved using the supplied
> > Epson ultrachrome inks on Epson matte media. The prints had
> > a "newspaper like" quality as a result of an insufficient tonal 
range
> > despite a full range of tones in Photoshop ( "0" to about "240").
> > These images look fine under glass but were inferior to darkroom
> > prints in the hand. I suspect the paper I used may not have been 
the
> > best -- Epson "watercolor" and "Heavyweight matte". I was also 
using
> > the standard Epson printer driver.
> > Can I expect better blacks using different matte papers?
> 
> Perhaps a little but not much.
> 
> >Would using 
> > Ray Harrington's QTR have any bearing?
> 
> No not significantly
> 
> >Am I right in thinking some
> > people use MIS eboni black instead of the Epson Ultrachrome matte
> > black in their 2100 printers? Should I try this when it becomes
> > available for the 2400?
> 
> Yes.  It will improve dMax by up to 10% on the thicker "fine art" 
papers.
> It is ever so slightly weaker on EEM/EAM.
> 
> If you really want the same sort of dynamic range (or better) that 
is
> achievable in traditional printing then try the new inks (with PK) 
on Epson
> Preium Semigloss/matte paper.
>

Thanks Clayton,
Your website articles are an excellent online resource which I will 
make full use of. For fine art prints I will first test the Epson 
Velvet paper and when it becomes available I will have the option of 
eboni black. Is eboni black entirely compatible with the epson inks 
for colour printing? Does the use of eboni black present any problems 
if I use the Harrington RIP for it's soft proofing ability? I will 
test drive both your "sensible and easy approach" to fine art b&w on 
the 2400 and the possibly the Harrington RIP.
I am guessing that availability of many of the papers you tested in 
your great paper chase are not easily available in the UK. I do have 
some Lyson smooth fine art (double sided 300gsm)which is rumoured to 
be a Hannemhule paper though I am not sure.
I guess I set high standards for Dmax since I used to selenium tone 
my fibre based wet prints.
Regards, Pete.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
>
> Hello Pete,
> 
> >I suspect the paper I used may not have been the 
> >best -- Epson "watercolor" and "Heavyweight matte". 
> >I would be very grateful for any advice or recommendations.
> 
> You might get a bit more dmax out of some different papers.  Epson
> Velvet Fine Art, Hahnemuhle PhotoRag, and Red River Dourian Art all
> have the highest dmax ratings among matte papers (the "Great Paper
> Chase" article at the link below has a comparison of 25 matte 
papers).

>  And yes, using Eboni will help a bit too.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "petexp2" <kafoozalem@b...> 
wrote:
>
Hello Pete,

Paper makes an enormous difference in tonal range and quality. Try using one of the 
better Art papers such as Hahnemule Photo Rag, or Epson Velvet Fine Art. Both have a very 
good dmax. But there is a boatload of quality paper out there which will give you very 
good results.

Clayton Jones' website has a good article on papers. This will point you in the right 
direction. 

Experiment, experiment, experiment.

Roy Harrington's QTR will solve your metamerism problem, but I don't know if it's been 
developed for Canon printers. Check his website too.

Lastly, RC papers will give you the deepest black in my opinion, if you like the glossy look.

Steve

> I am in the process of upgrading from the Epson 2100 to the 2400. I 
> am aware that both printers use the same matte black ink which 
> worries me a little. I mostly printed using Lyson's quad black inkset 
> on the 2100 and the blacks were deep and satisfying though there were 
> other problems.
> I was less satisfied with the blacks I achieved using the supplied 
> Epson ultrachrome inks on Epson matte media. The prints had 
> a "newspaper like" quality as a result of an insufficient tonal range 
> despite a full range of tones in Photoshop ( "0" to about "240"). 
> These images look fine under glass but were inferior to darkroom 
> prints in the hand. I suspect the paper I used may not have been the 
> best -- Epson "watercolor" and "Heavyweight matte". I was also using 
> the standard Epson printer driver.
> Can I expect better blacks using different matte papers? Would using 
> Ray Harrington's QTR have any bearing? Am I right in thinking some 
> people use MIS eboni black instead of the Epson Ultrachrome matte 
> black in their 2100 printers? Should I try this when it becomes 
> available for the 2400?
> Incidentially the samples of Piezography K7 prints done on a 2100 
> show a similarly weak black.
> I would be very grateful for any advice or recommendations.
> Regards, Pete.
>

> From: petexp2 <kafoozalem@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:16:21 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dmax with Epson 2400 on matte media
> 
> Thanks Steve,
> Very useful information. When I get the printer I will certainly test
> it with semi gloss (semi matte seems to only come in 30 metre lengths
> in UK ). For fine art prints I will test Velvet paper and when it
> becomes available I will have the option of eboni black. Is eboni
> black entirely compatible with the epson inks for colour printing?

Ideally you would reprofile the new ink set but I doubt it is far wrong.
 
> Does the use of eboni black present any problems if I use the
> Harrington RIP for it's soft proofing ability?

Not sure what you mean.  QTR Create ICC can be used to create an output and
soft proof profile for any ink/paper/driver combination.

Re sourcing paper in the UK, we should chat.  It really is a rip off.  You
are better off getting your paper (even stuff made in Europe) sent from the
US.  I've been meaning to write up my research/recent experience re roll
paper for the 4800.  Needless to say I have filled my immediate need for
Hahnemuhle Photorag 308 by sourcing it in the US at about half the cost of
buying it here.  

One thing to remember about paper is that few companies actually make their
own.  Hahnemuhle is a notable exception. (The great thing about Hahnemuhle
is you know they make their paper and you know what you're getting.)  But
Permajet and Innova are good examples.  Permajet here in the UK sells a nice
paper called Imagelife Alpha (natural white) and another Imagelife Omega
(high white).  Innova in the US sells a product called Photo Smooth Cotton
High White.  After some digging I think you will find that this is the same
paper as Permajet Omega.  And guess what, Innova plans to sell a natural
white version in the US soon, ie the same as Permajet Alpha.  Another.
Mandev here in the UK sells a couple of products called Eterna Excel Natural
White and Eterna Excel Natural High White.  While Les at Mandev will not
confirm, they are indistinguishable from the Permajet products.  Now guess
which is the cheapest?  Well unfortunately the Mandev Eterna product, while
substantially cheaper than Permajet, is not as cheap as sourcing Innova
products of Jim Doyle at Shades of Paper in the US (you'll find him very
understanding of UK customs conditions).  I did my comparison shopping with
respect to 17in rolls - you should check out pricing for your preferred
sizes.

UK paper buyers - don't be afraid to shop around.

Steve Kale wrote:

> UK paper buyers - don't be afraid to shop around.

Steve,

There's no direct price quote available for 17" paper but a 
36"/15 m/315gr/m2 roll of Innova Photo Smooth Cotton Natural 
White costs 198.80 Euro excl. VAT in the Netherlands.

www.arca-nl.nl

I have given you that address before. That's roughly two 17" 
rolls. If you buy more rolls there will be a 10% reduction.

Jim Doyle quotes 199,99 $. That's about 21 % cheaper on the 
quoted price with the Euro-$ rating. I don't know what the P&P 
price difference will be and what  Jim's reduction is. Import 
Tax from the US will be in the order of 6% if customs pays 
attention.

Buying third party inks in the US is much cheaper for us than 
getting equivalent inks here, no doubt about that. But if the 
price difference on paper isn't more than 10%, I prefer to buy 
here as I can order today to get the rolls tomorrow

Ernst


                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

What's your cost of 17in HPR 308?  What's VAT in The Netherlands? BTW you
never popped into this discussion in the WF Group when people (incl Steve
Gledhill) asked for prices from European suppliers.

A guy sitting in the UK has still got to get your Netherlands product to the
UK.  No duty would be payable on goods from the Netherlands of course and it
is highly unlikely to added by UK Customs on goods sent from Shades of
Paper.  At worst, and again this is very unlikely for irregular shipments,
17.5% VAT will be levied re goods shipped from the US on the cost of goods
plus postage (ie landed value), plus a £12 processing fee.

I don't think Innova product is sold here in the UK.  If I am wrong will
someone please correct me as that will provide another interesting price
comparison. 

(I need to write up my findings in another thread as a proper basis for this
discussion.  There are two levels here.  Shopping around for the best price
on a given product, eg HPR or Epson X.  Then shopping around for the best
price of a useful substitute.  With the latter, the world gets very murky as
many identical products are sold under various brands and for the most part
these substitutes have not had their products tested for longevity.)

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:37:33 +0200
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dmax with Epson 2400 on matte media - UK paper
> suppliers
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> UK paper buyers - don't be afraid to shop around.
> 
> Steve,
> 
> There's no direct price quote available for 17" paper but a
> 36"/15 m/315gr/m2 roll of Innova Photo Smooth Cotton Natural
> White costs 198.80 Euro excl. VAT in the Netherlands.
> 
> www.arca-nl.nl
> 
> I have given you that address before. That's roughly two 17"
> rolls. If you buy more rolls there will be a 10% reduction.
> 
> Jim Doyle quotes 199,99 $. That's about 21 % cheaper on the
> quoted price with the Euro-$ rating. I don't know what the P&P
> price difference will be and what  Jim's reduction is. Import
> Tax from the US will be in the order of 6% if customs pays
> attention.
> 
> Buying third party inks in the US is much cheaper for us than
> getting equivalent inks here, no doubt about that. But if the
> price difference on paper isn't more than 10%, I prefer to buy
> here as I can order today to get the rolls tomorrow
> 
> Ernst
>

Hello Pete,

>Your website articles are an excellent online resource which I 
>will make full use of. For fine art prints I will first test the 
>Epson Velvet paper and when it becomes available I will have the 
>option of eboni black. Is eboni black entirely compatible with 
>the epson inks for colour printing?  

I know there is no problem as far as it adhering to the paper along
with the color inks and that sort of thing.  Since I don't do any
color printing I can't say with certainty about how it affects the
actual colors and shades, but I haven't heard of any such complaints.
It is a slightly cooler black than MK.  Maybe someone who prints
color with it can jump in here....


>Does the use of eboni black present any problems if I use the 
>Harrington RIP for it's soft proofing ability? 

Sorry, I don't know.  Maybe someone else does...

>I will test drive both your "sensible and easy approach" to fine 
>art b&w on the 2400 and the possibly the Harrington RIP.

The 2400 does an amazingly good job as is.  There is also a
possibility that MIS will someday have a grayscale inkset for the 2400
that will work in the ABW mode.  This would get us out of the color
ink dot method and still not require a RIP.  I look forward to that.

>I am guessing that availability of many of the papers you tested 
>in your great paper chase are not easily available in the UK. I 
>do have some Lyson smooth fine art (double sided 300gsm)which is 
>rumoured to be a Hannemhule paper though I am not sure.
>I guess I set high standards for Dmax since I used to selenium 
>tone my fibre based wet prints.

If the Epson papers are available then I'd certainly try VFA.  It's
dmax is really good, and a beautiful paper in other ways as well.  
The only drawback for lots of people is the texture.  On some images
it just doesn't work well, but otherwise it's as good as anything else
out there and works really nicely with the K3 inks.  Even if you don't
use it for everything it certainly should be in the arsenal.

Good luck with it and let us know what you find out.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Steve, you wrote:

> What's your cost of 17in HPR 308?  What's VAT in The Netherlands? BTW you
> never popped into this discussion in the WF Group when people (incl Steve
> Gledhill) asked for prices from European suppliers.

Don't know the HPR 308 17" price here but the same site I 
mentioned has prices for HM papers. AFAIK I have given the 
same address before in the WF group. The HM papers at 36 and 
44 " are even with the best reductions still more expensive 
per sqm than the Innova papers of the same quality.
VAT is 19% here but I run a business so don't count that part.

> A guy sitting in the UK has still got to get your Netherlands product to the
> UK.  No duty would be payable on goods from the Netherlands of course and it
> is highly unlikely to added by UK Customs on goods sent from Shades of
> Paper.  At worst, and again this is very unlikely for irregular shipments,
> 17.5% VAT will be levied re goods shipped from the US on the cost of goods
> plus postage (ie landed value), plus a \ufffd12 processing fee.

Again I don't count the VAT, if I have to pay, I can also 
deduct again. At the same time I have to be careful with 
import tax. The occasional package may not be observed but it 
counts up and customs here can add a lot up over the years 
when they think you cheated them as a business. Paper just 
isn't that cheaper in the US, delivery time longer and sending 
rolls back when they are not good is a hassle.

> I don't think Innova product is sold here in the UK.  If I am wrong will
> someone please correct me as that will provide another interesting price
> comparison. 

This can't be true.
http://www.innovaart.com/contact.html
If you check the contact page you will see that Mark Messina 
is located in the UK. He should know who sells it in the UK.
There are pound prices at their site:
http://www.innovaart.com/fine_price_soft.html

The brothers Bol mentioned on the contact page are involved in 
Innova but also the men behind www.arca-nl.nl, the distributor 
in The Netherlands.
If there's no UK solution ask the price at Arca-nl. They speak 
or write English and it could well be that though the 
communication goes through their business the delivery might 
be directly from a warehouse in the UK. AFAIK, at least part 
of the production is UK based.

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Hi Guys..

if I can help I will..But in the UK Innova Is Produced There!

contact Mark Messina at markm@...


            Stock is on the shelf in the UK, product is produced there :)


Jim Doyle


J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
114 Old Orchard Rd
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
AOL IM: Brokerup99

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ernst
Dinkla
  Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:41 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dmax with Epson 2400 on matte media - UK paper
suppliers


  Steve, you wrote:

  > What's your cost of 17in HPR 308?  What's VAT in The Netherlands? BTW
you
  > never popped into this discussion in the WF Group when people (incl
Steve
  > Gledhill) asked for prices from European suppliers.

  Don't know the HPR 308 17" price here but the same site I
  mentioned has prices for HM papers. AFAIK I have given the
  same address before in the WF group. The HM papers at 36 and
  44 " are even with the best reductions still more expensive
  per sqm than the Innova papers of the same quality.
  VAT is 19% here but I run a business so don't count that part.

  > A guy sitting in the UK has still got to get your Netherlands product to
the
  > UK.  No duty would be payable on goods from the Netherlands of course
and it
  > is highly unlikely to added by UK Customs on goods sent from Shades of
  > Paper.  At worst, and again this is very unlikely for irregular
shipments,
  > 17.5% VAT will be levied re goods shipped from the US on the cost of
goods
  > plus postage (ie landed value), plus a £12 processing fee.

  Again I don't count the VAT, if I have to pay, I can also
  deduct again. At the same time I have to be careful with
  import tax. The occasional package may not be observed but it
  counts up and customs here can add a lot up over the years
  when they think you cheated them as a business. Paper just
  isn't that cheaper in the US, delivery time longer and sending
  rolls back when they are not good is a hassle.

  > I don't think Innova product is sold here in the UK.  If I am wrong will
  > someone please correct me as that will provide another interesting price
  > comparison.

  This can't be true.
  http://www.innovaart.com/contact.html
  If you check the contact page you will see that Mark Messina
  is located in the UK. He should know who sells it in the UK.
  There are pound prices at their site:
  http://www.innovaart.com/fine_price_soft.html

  The brothers Bol mentioned on the contact page are involved in
  Innova but also the men behind www.arca-nl.nl, the distributor
  in The Netherlands.
  If there's no UK solution ask the price at Arca-nl. They speak
  or write English and it could well be that though the
  communication goes through their business the delivery might
  be directly from a warehouse in the UK. AFAIK, at least part
  of the production is UK based.

                      --
             Ernst Dinkla


  www.pigment-print.com
  (         unvollendet         )


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ernst

Thanks for the link in the earlier post.  This is the first I have seen of
it. Maybe you posted it prior to my Ripoff Britain rant or perhaps I missed
it.  I'll take the NL price points when I write up my summary of my
findings.  Good to know - thanks.

Unfortunately I have to price in the VAT. :-(  I'll check out the Innova
stuff although if I can find HPR at a good price (say from the US) I'll
simply continue to use that.

FYI the NL price for a 17in roll of HPR works out around about £90 (plus
shipping).  Including shipping, I can get it from Jim for £74 (£50/€42
excluding shipping).  And I'd rather pay that price all day long rather than
support Hahnemuhle's gross pricing policy in the UK.

Cheers

Steve

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:41:09 +0200
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dmax with Epson 2400 on matte media - UK paper
> suppliers
> 
> Steve, you wrote:
> 
>> What's your cost of 17in HPR 308?  What's VAT in The Netherlands? BTW you
>> never popped into this discussion in the WF Group when people (incl Steve
>> Gledhill) asked for prices from European suppliers.
> 
> Don't know the HPR 308 17" price here but the same site I
> mentioned has prices for HM papers. AFAIK I have given the
> same address before in the WF group. The HM papers at 36 and
> 44 " are even with the best reductions still more expensive
> per sqm than the Innova papers of the same quality.
> VAT is 19% here but I run a business so don't count that part.
> 
>> A guy sitting in the UK has still got to get your Netherlands product to the
>> UK.  No duty would be payable on goods from the Netherlands of course and it
>> is highly unlikely to added by UK Customs on goods sent from Shades of
>> Paper.  At worst, and again this is very unlikely for irregular shipments,
>> 17.5% VAT will be levied re goods shipped from the US on the cost of goods
>> plus postage (ie landed value), plus a £12 processing fee.
> 
> Again I don't count the VAT, if I have to pay, I can also
> deduct again. At the same time I have to be careful with
> import tax. The occasional package may not be observed but it
> counts up and customs here can add a lot up over the years
> when they think you cheated them as a business. Paper just
> isn't that cheaper in the US, delivery time longer and sending
> rolls back when they are not good is a hassle.
> 
>> I don't think Innova product is sold here in the UK.  If I am wrong will
>> someone please correct me as that will provide another interesting price
>> comparison. 
> 
> This can't be true.
> http://www.innovaart.com/contact.html
> If you check the contact page you will see that Mark Messina
> is located in the UK. He should know who sells it in the UK.
> There are pound prices at their site:
> http://www.innovaart.com/fine_price_soft.html
> 
> The brothers Bol mentioned on the contact page are involved in
> Innova but also the men behind www.arca-nl.nl, the distributor
> in The Netherlands.
> If there's no UK solution ask the price at Arca-nl. They speak
> or write English and it could well be that though the
> communication goes through their business the delivery might
> be directly from a warehouse in the UK. AFAIK, at least part
> of the production is UK based.
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
>

Thank you everybody,

I certainly feel much more confident about the direction to go in 
after your collective input. I will not rule out importing paper from 
the US despite the shock you get when the courier demands the tax COD.
I am about a month away from buying the printer. No point in getting 
it until I have the time to devote to testing materials and settings -
- I don't want it sitting idle while the warranty slowly expires!
Best wishes to all.
Pete.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle" 
<jdoyle1713@c...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys..
> 
> if I can help I will..But in the UK Innova Is Produced There!
> 
> contact Mark Messina at markm@i...
> 
> 
>             Stock is on the shelf in the UK, product is produced 
there :)
> 
> 
> Jim Doyle
> 
> 
> J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
> 114 Old Orchard Rd
> Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
> 856-424-8660
> http://www.shadesofpaper.com
> AOL IM: Brokerup99
> 
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of 
Ernst
> Dinkla
>   Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:41 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dmax with Epson 2400 on matte media - 
UK paper
> suppliers
> 
> 
>   Steve, you wrote:
> 
>   > What's your cost of 17in HPR 308?  What's VAT in The 
Netherlands? BTW
> you
>   > never popped into this discussion in the WF Group when people 
(incl
> Steve
>   > Gledhill) asked for prices from European suppliers.
> 
>   Don't know the HPR 308 17" price here but the same site I
>   mentioned has prices for HM papers. AFAIK I have given the
>   same address before in the WF group. The HM papers at 36 and
>   44 " are even with the best reductions still more expensive
>   per sqm than the Innova papers of the same quality.
>   VAT is 19% here but I run a business so don't count that part.
> 
>   > A guy sitting in the UK has still got to get your Netherlands 
product to
> the
>   > UK.  No duty would be payable on goods from the Netherlands of 
course
> and it
>   > is highly unlikely to added by UK Customs on goods sent from 
Shades of
>   > Paper.  At worst, and again this is very unlikely for irregular
> shipments,
>   > 17.5% VAT will be levied re goods shipped from the US on the 
cost of
> goods
>   > plus postage (ie landed value), plus a £12 processing fee.
> 
>   Again I don't count the VAT, if I have to pay, I can also
>   deduct again. At the same time I have to be careful with
>   import tax. The occasional package may not be observed but it
>   counts up and customs here can add a lot up over the years
>   when they think you cheated them as a business. Paper just
>   isn't that cheaper in the US, delivery time longer and sending
>   rolls back when they are not good is a hassle.
> 
>   > I don't think Innova product is sold here in the UK.  If I am 
wrong will
>   > someone please correct me as that will provide another 
interesting price
>   > comparison.
> 
>   This can't be true.
>   http://www.innovaart.com/contact.html
>   If you check the contact page you will see that Mark Messina
>   is located in the UK. He should know who sells it in the UK.
>   There are pound prices at their site:
>   http://www.innovaart.com/fine_price_soft.html
> 
>   The brothers Bol mentioned on the contact page are involved in
>   Innova but also the men behind www.arca-nl.nl, the distributor
>   in The Netherlands.
>   If there's no UK solution ask the price at Arca-nl. They speak
>   or write English and it could well be that though the
>   communication goes through their business the delivery might
>   be directly from a warehouse in the UK. AFAIK, at least part
>   of the production is UK based.
> 
>                       --
>              Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
>   www.pigment-print.com
>   (         unvollendet         )
> 
> 
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