Digital BW, The Print

I recently went to Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art for an OBA-free paper and 
was impressed with it:  good image, impeccable quality, etc.

Having heard that Premiere Hot Press was the same paper, I ordered 150 
sheets of it.  It looks like the EUS, measures like it and their 
profiles are essentially identical.

The Premiere paper, however, shows *terrible* quality control: bad 
edges, miscuts, insects smashed in the coating (really) and, worst of 
all, radom scuffing of the coating that is quite visible in black areas 
of the print.  

At the same time I bought a box of the Premiere Hot Press Textured and 
these sheets were so badly cut and stiff and deformed that I had 
difficulty loading them into the printer.  It is a very rough surfaced, 
ugly, badly finished paper.

So, if you're thinking about a Premiere paper, watch out.  I was 
shocked.

Thanks for that paper update.

It seems like I have heard somewhere that Epson takes the Premier Art rag and coats it 
again to produce thier Ultrasmooth. If you are seeing less scuffing on the Ultrasmooth that 
could be the reason. 

Unfortunately from what I can remember the Ultrasmooth is not available in 300 gsm dual 
sided, only Premier Art Hotpress. The US is available in 400 gsm dual which is too thick for 
books. And that is too bad because I found this paper to transfer blacks less than any 
paper around. ( the Crane Museo Max is new and I don't know about it yet and its not as 
smooth). I also find the Ultrasmooth to be the sharpest paper I've seen in a 100% rag. It 
also shows a lot less metamerism with some inksets due to that lack of OBAs.

I hope what you experienced is not the norm but if it happened on two different batches 
that is a  real concern.

John


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" <odets@c...> wrote:

>
> I recently went to Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art for an OBA-free paper and 
> was impressed with it:  good image, impeccable quality, etc.
> 
> Having heard that Premiere Hot Press was the same paper, I ordered 150 
> sheets of it.  It looks like the EUS, measures like it and their 
> profiles are essentially identical.
> 
> The Premiere paper, however, shows *terrible* quality control: bad 
> edges, miscuts, insects smashed in the coating (really) and, worst of 
> all, radom scuffing of the coating that is quite visible in black areas 
> of the print.  
> 
> At the same time I bought a box of the Premiere Hot Press Textured and 
> these sheets were so badly cut and stiff and deformed that I had 
> difficulty loading them into the printer.  It is a very rough surfaced, 
> ugly, badly finished paper.
> 
> So, if you're thinking about a Premiere paper, watch out.  I was 
> shocked.
>

I had exactly the same experience when I recently purchased a box of  
Premier Luster Rag.  Ragged edges, poor packaging, scuffed paper  
surface, warped, and very stiffly curled paper out of the box.  Never  
again.

On Nov 23, 2005, at 4:26 PM, wwodets wrote:

> I recently went to Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art for an OBA-free paper  
> and
> was impressed with it:  good image, impeccable quality, etc.
>
> Having heard that Premiere Hot Press was the same paper, I ordered 150
> sheets of it.  It looks like the EUS, measures like it and their
> profiles are essentially identical.
>
> The Premiere paper, however, shows *terrible* quality control: bad
> edges, miscuts, insects smashed in the coating (really) and, worst of
> all, radom scuffing of the coating that is quite visible in black  
> areas
> of the print.
>
> At the same time I bought a box of the Premiere Hot Press Textured and
> these sheets were so badly cut and stiff and deformed that I had
> difficulty loading them into the printer.  It is a very rough  
> surfaced,
> ugly, badly finished paper.
>
> So, if you're thinking about a Premiere paper, watch out.  I was
> shocked.

It sounds like there is a QC problem somewhere.  What retailers were these
purchased from? 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl
> Schofield
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:40 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Ultrasmooth vs. Premiere Hot Press
> 
> I had exactly the same experience when I recently purchased a box of
> Premier Luster Rag.  Ragged edges, poor packaging, scuffed paper
> surface, warped, and very stiffly curled paper out of the box.  Never
> again.
> 
> On Nov 23, 2005, at 4:26 PM, wwodets wrote:
> 
> > I recently went to Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art for an OBA-free paper
> > and
> > was impressed with it:  good image, impeccable quality, etc.
> >
> > Having heard that Premiere Hot Press was the same paper, I ordered 150
> > sheets of it.  It looks like the EUS, measures like it and their
> > profiles are essentially identical.
> >
> > The Premiere paper, however, shows *terrible* quality control: bad
> > edges, miscuts, insects smashed in the coating (really) and, worst of
> > all, radom scuffing of the coating that is quite visible in black
> > areas
> > of the print.
> >
> > At the same time I bought a box of the Premiere Hot Press Textured and
> > these sheets were so badly cut and stiff and deformed that I had
> > difficulty loading them into the printer.  It is a very rough
> > surfaced,
> > ugly, badly finished paper.
> >
> > So, if you're thinking about a Premiere paper, watch out.  I was
> > shocked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

I bought the paper through IT Suplies (a very reliable outfit), but 
it was shipped directly from Premier in L.A.  ITS is taking it all 
back and has always been extremely responsible in my experience.

I understand from another supplier, who knows more about paper, that 
Epson obtains the paper in rolls and, through a third party, does its 
own coating and cutting.   The USFA is, in fact, slightly smoother to 
the touch than the Premiere.  The USFA is also 325gsm rather than the 
Premier's 350.

Whatever, someone at Epson is getting this right--the USFA delivers a 
perfect sheet virtually every time.  As for Premiere, as Carl said, 
never again.  I'm saving one of the sheets with a crushed insect in 
the coating just to remind me if I ever go crazy and think about 
buying something from Premier again.  People seem to like their spray 
though--anyone seen bugs flying out of the can?





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> It sounds like there is a QC problem somewhere.  What retailers 
were these
> purchased from? 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
Of Carl
> > Schofield
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:40 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Ultrasmooth vs. Premiere Hot Press
> > 
> > I had exactly the same experience when I recently purchased a box 
of
> > Premier Luster Rag.  Ragged edges, poor packaging, scuffed paper
> > surface, warped, and very stiffly curled paper out of the box.  
Never
> > again.
> > 
> > On Nov 23, 2005, at 4:26 PM, wwodets wrote:
> > 
> > > I recently went to Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art for an OBA-free 
paper
> > > and
> > > was impressed with it:  good image, impeccable quality, etc.
> > >
> > > Having heard that Premiere Hot Press was the same paper, I 
ordered 150
> > > sheets of it.  It looks like the EUS, measures like it and their
> > > profiles are essentially identical.
> > >
> > > The Premiere paper, however, shows *terrible* quality control: 
bad
> > > edges, miscuts, insects smashed in the coating (really) and, 
worst of
> > > all, radom scuffing of the coating that is quite visible in 
black
> > > areas
> > > of the print.
> > >
> > > At the same time I bought a box of the Premiere Hot Press 
Textured and
> > > these sheets were so badly cut and stiff and deformed that I had
> > > difficulty loading them into the printer.  It is a very rough
> > > surfaced,
> > > ugly, badly finished paper.
> > >
> > > So, if you're thinking about a Premiere paper, watch out.  I was
> > > shocked.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner
> > and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the 
Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER 
AND
> > MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS 
OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE
> > OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) 
THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
(ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR 
DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE

> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>

John-

Actually the Epson USFA is available in sheets at 325gsm, dual 
sided.  The rolls are different.  Yes, the image is very sharp on 
this paper.  Unfortunately the dmax is not at the level of the Velvet 
Fine Art, but is typical for matte papers, identical in my 
measurements to the Photo Rag (1.65 or so).  Since I'm using the K3 
inks, I haven't dealt with metamerism issues.

On a related note, today I visited Exim Vaios (sp?), which happens to 
be in my hometown in Berkeley.  A good and knowledgable bunch.  They 
told me that they sell both the Epson water-resistant canvas and the 
material directly from the people who make it for Epson.  "We have 
never replaced a roll of the Epson material, but we replace a lot of 
the other."  They're big Hahnemuhle fans, which I can't get behind.

Walt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for that paper update.
> 
> It seems like I have heard somewhere that Epson takes the Premier 
Art rag and coats it 
> again to produce thier Ultrasmooth. If you are seeing less scuffing 
on the Ultrasmooth that 
> could be the reason. 
> 
> Unfortunately from what I can remember the Ultrasmooth is not 
available in 300 gsm dual 
> sided, only Premier Art Hotpress. The US is available in 400 gsm 
dual which is too thick for 
> books. And that is too bad because I found this paper to transfer 
blacks less than any 
> paper around. ( the Crane Museo Max is new and I don't know about 
it yet and its not as 
> smooth). I also find the Ultrasmooth to be the sharpest paper I've 
seen in a 100% rag. It 
> also shows a lot less metamerism with some inksets due to that lack 
of OBAs.
> 
> I hope what you experienced is not the norm but if it happened on 
two different batches 
> that is a  real concern.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" 
<odets@c...> wrote:
> >
> > I recently went to Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art for an OBA-free 
paper and 
> > was impressed with it:  good image, impeccable quality, etc.
> > 
> > Having heard that Premiere Hot Press was the same paper, I 
ordered 150 
> > sheets of it.  It looks like the EUS, measures like it and their 
> > profiles are essentially identical.
> > 
> > The Premiere paper, however, shows *terrible* quality control: 
bad 
> > edges, miscuts, insects smashed in the coating (really) and, 
worst of 
> > all, radom scuffing of the coating that is quite visible in black 
areas 
> > of the print.  
> > 
> > At the same time I bought a box of the Premiere Hot Press 
Textured and 
> > these sheets were so badly cut and stiff and deformed that I had 
> > difficulty loading them into the printer.  It is a very rough 
surfaced, 

> > ugly, badly finished paper.
> > 
> > So, if you're thinking about a Premiere paper, watch out.  I was 
> > shocked.
> >
>

I purchased the Premier Luster Rag from IT Supplies.

Carl

On Nov 23, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> It sounds like there is a QC problem somewhere.  What retailers  
> were these
> purchased from?
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of  
>> Carl
>> Schofield
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:40 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Ultrasmooth vs. Premiere Hot Press
>>
>> I had exactly the same experience when I recently purchased a box of
>> Premier Luster Rag.  Ragged edges, poor packaging, scuffed paper
>> surface, warped, and very stiffly curled paper out of the box.  Never
>> again.
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2005, at 4:26 PM, wwodets wrote:
>>
>>> I recently went to Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art for an OBA-free paper
>>> and
>>> was impressed with it:  good image, impeccable quality, etc.
>>>
>>> Having heard that Premiere Hot Press was the same paper, I  
>>> ordered 150
>>> sheets of it.  It looks like the EUS, measures like it and their
>>> profiles are essentially identical.
>>>
>>> The Premiere paper, however, shows *terrible* quality control: bad
>>> edges, miscuts, insects smashed in the coating (really) and,  
>>> worst of
>>> all, radom scuffing of the coating that is quite visible in black
>>> areas
>>> of the print.
>>>
>>> At the same time I bought a box of the Premiere Hot Press  
>>> Textured and
>>> these sheets were so badly cut and stiff and deformed that I had
>>> difficulty loading them into the printer.  It is a very rough
>>> surfaced,
>>> ugly, badly finished paper.
>>>
>>> So, if you're thinking about a Premiere paper, watch out.  I was
>>> shocked.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
>> resources as
>> they are often being updated.
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
>> wish to
>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
>> this same
>> page.
>>
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
>> to keep
>> them short.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
>> flames.
>> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>> membership without notice.
>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of  
>> digital B&W
>> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
>> removed from
>> the membership.
>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
>> Owner
>> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
>> section:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>
>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
>> PRINT
>> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
>> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE  
>> LIABLE TO
>> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
>> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
>> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
>> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE  
>> BEEN
>> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)  
>> THE USE
>> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
>> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR  
>> DATA; (iii)
>> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines”  
> in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
> SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I purchased the Premier Luster Rag from IT Supplies.

Carl

On Nov 23, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> It sounds like there is a QC problem somewhere.  What retailers  
> were these
> purchased from?
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of  
>> Carl
>> Schofield
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:40 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Ultrasmooth vs. Premiere Hot Press
>>
>> I had exactly the same experience when I recently purchased a box of
>> Premier Luster Rag.  Ragged edges, poor packaging, scuffed paper
>> surface, warped, and very stiffly curled paper out of the box.  Never
>> again.
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2005, at 4:26 PM, wwodets wrote:
>>
>>> I recently went to Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art for an OBA-free paper
>>> and
>>> was impressed with it:  good image, impeccable quality, etc.
>>>
>>> Having heard that Premiere Hot Press was the same paper, I  
>>> ordered 150
>>> sheets of it.  It looks like the EUS, measures like it and their
>>> profiles are essentially identical.
>>>
>>> The Premiere paper, however, shows *terrible* quality control: bad
>>> edges, miscuts, insects smashed in the coating (really) and,  
>>> worst of
>>> all, radom scuffing of the coating that is quite visible in black
>>> areas
>>> of the print.
>>>
>>> At the same time I bought a box of the Premiere Hot Press  
>>> Textured and
>>> these sheets were so badly cut and stiff and deformed that I had
>>> difficulty loading them into the printer.  It is a very rough
>>> surfaced,
>>> ugly, badly finished paper.
>>>
>>> So, if you're thinking about a Premiere paper, watch out.  I was
>>> shocked.
>>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" 
<odets@c...> wrote:
> perfect sheet virtually every time.  As for Premiere, as Carl said, 
> never again.  I'm saving one of the sheets with a crushed insect in 
> the coating just to remind me if I ever go crazy and think about 
> buying something from Premier again.  People seem to like their 
spray 


WAIT!!!..........


Art meets life! Take a picture of a car windshield, and print it so 
the bug a mashed against the glass!



Then right an essay about the benefits of bugs on paper, and well... 
anything else that went into making that image (so you can get free 
paper with bugs in the coating).... and sell it framed for $10,000.

Now that WOULD be some of the greatest fine art photography of our
time, but only after you empty a twelve gauge shell into it. Oh...it
slipped my mind, Misrach already did that,hell, everything's already
been done.

jc

> Art meets life! Take a picture of a car windshield, and print it so 
> the bug a mashed against the glass!
> 
> 
> 
> Then right an essay about the benefits of bugs on paper, and well... 
> anything else that went into making that image (so you can get free 
> paper with bugs in the coating).... and sell it framed for $10,000.
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>
> Now that WOULD be some of the greatest fine art photography of our
> time, but only after you empty a twelve gauge shell into it. Oh...it
> slipped my mind, Misrach already did that,hell, everything's already
> been done.
> 
> jc
> 


You could always drizzle paint over it,creating a "mixed media" piece.

THAT would make you a TRUE artist.


Scott

Has anybady compared thise 3 paperes, Premier Luster Rag, Hahnem�hle Photo Rag Satin and 
Crane Silver Rag. 

I am using Hahnem�hle Photo Rag Satin and its a very beutifull paper with high dmax but its 
just a bit too textured and I a woundering how the 2 otheres are compared to Hahnem�hle 
Photo Rag Satin. Also one need to couat this paper with some coating as there are a brovnish 
shine otherwice to the mat reflection. I am interested in the feel of the cotten paper but I 
would like the high Dmax wich one gets otherwice from the coated plastic paperes. 

I would like to bay thise otheres paperes but haven�t found a resellers in Europa or near 
Finland! Does anybady how sell Premier Luster Rag and Crane Silver Rag in Europa?

Greatings,

Joakim Eskildsen
Finland

I tried the Premier Luster Rag and didn't like it.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/69212
I don't think that  the Crane Silver Rag is available yet.

On Nov 24, 2005, at 4:48 AM, joaskild wrote:

> Has anybady compared thise 3 paperes, Premier Luster Rag,  
> Hahnemühle Photo Rag Satin and
> Crane Silver Rag.
>
> I am using Hahnemühle Photo Rag Satin and its a very beutifull  
> paper with high dmax but its
> just a bit too textured and I a woundering how the 2 otheres are  
> compared to Hahnemühle
> Photo Rag Satin. Also one need to couat this paper with some  
> coating as there are a brovnish
> shine otherwice to the mat reflection. I am interested in the feel  
> of the cotten paper but I
> would like the high Dmax wich one gets otherwice from the coated  
> plastic paperes.
>
> I would like to bay thise otheres paperes but haven´t found a  
> resellers in Europa or near
> Finland! Does anybady how sell Premier Luster Rag and Crane Silver  
> Rag in Europa?
>
> Greatings,
>
> Joakim Eskildsen
> Finland

I am still testing a box of the HPRSatin. It's an odd paper, but it 
does give some good performance. The dmax is no better than what I 
get with other Hahnemuhle papers, but the ink dots seem to be less 
visible than some of the other papers. The change in gloss from no 
ink to heavy ink is a bit of a problem. I think the "new" super gloss 
inks will actually be a detriment for this paper. But if you use 
matte black and print black only, this paper should be a very nice 
paper, with an even soft gloss across the entire image. Or if you 
spray GLOP on the unprinted areas, then you will also have a nice 
even semi gloss print.

So as I said, I still have mixed feelings about the HPRSatin paper.

Hi Greg,

Which black ink does Hahnemuhle recommend for HPR Satin? PK or MK?

Thanks,

Scott (who prints using a 4800 with PK) : > )



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:

>
> I am still testing a box of the HPRSatin. It's an odd paper, but it 
> does give some good performance. The dmax is no better than what I 
> get with other Hahnemuhle papers, but the ink dots seem to be less 
> visible than some of the other papers. The change in gloss from no 
> ink to heavy ink is a bit of a problem. I think the "new" super gloss 
> inks will actually be a detriment for this paper. But if you use 
> matte black and print black only, this paper should be a very nice 
> paper, with an even soft gloss across the entire image. Or if you 
> spray GLOP on the unprinted areas, then you will also have a nice 
> even semi gloss print.
> 
> So as I said, I still have mixed feelings about the HPRSatin paper.
>

I'm not Greg, but I use the HPR Satin, and it's intended for use with Matte Black, which is 
great for those of us who have only Matte Black loaded in the printer -- I can continue to 
use all my matte papers and use the HPR Satin when I need more of a gloss.

 I absolutely love HPR Satin for B&W, but am becoming less enchanted with it for color -- 
it's fine, but doesn't really look much better than my color prints on Innova Smooth 
Cotton.  As mentioned earlier, certain areas take on a differential reflectivity that makes 
them have a brown/purplish sheen when tilted against the light.  But it hasn't been 
noticeable to me for B&W; only for color.  Plus, in general, the HPR Satin has a bit too 
much texture for all uses.

I'm eagerly looking forward to the Crane Silver Rag, though; if it's good enough, I might 
swap my 4800 over to Photo Black.  (Or get a 9800 plus the new version of ImagePrint 
with the Phatte Black mode to allow both Photo and Matte Black to be loaded at the same 
time without swapping, and keep my 4800 dedicated to Matte Black).

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:

>
> Hi Greg,
> 
> Which black ink does Hahnemuhle recommend for HPR Satin? PK or MK?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Scott (who prints using a 4800 with PK) : > )
> 
> 
>

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
> 
> Which black ink does Hahnemuhle recommend for HPR Satin? PK or MK?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Scott (who prints using a 4800 with PK) : > )


I'm not really sure which one they recommend, it seems to work very 
well with matte black, so I think matte would be best. Dmax is about 
the same as many other papers, at around 1.6x, so photo black may not 
have a good dmax. The over all color gamut is similar to other matte 
papers, which again suggests that matte black would work best, since 
you aren't getting any increase in gamut from the paper surface.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
>
> As mentioned earlier, certain areas take on a differential 
reflectivity that makes 
> them have a brown/purplish sheen when tilted against the light.  

I'm not seeing this bronzing on any of the prints I've made, color or 
B&W (no metamerism either). The different reflectivity of course I do 
see. My inks are Image Specialists UltraPro (WeInk Chromium Pro). It 
seems to take the gloss from the ink's encapsulation. With matte 
black only, there isn't much difference in gloss between paper white 
and ink black. As soon as you throw in a composite (CMYK) black, then 
you get a bunch of gloss differential between paper white and ink 
black. The color areas have even more gloss, since they don't have 
the matte black to bring down the reflectivity. This HPRSatin looks 
to have an extremely small dot gain with my inks, lower than other 
matte papers to be certain. This helps make my ancient 9500 look that 
much better, the B/W is really very exceptable now.

Thanks Chip.

Michael Reichmann said he's going to post a review of the ColorByte 
Phatte Black System on Saturday on his website:


http://www.luminous-landscape.com/new/index.shtml


Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
>
> I'm not Greg, but I use the HPR Satin, and it's intended for use 
with Matte Black, which is 
> great for those of us who have only Matte Black loaded in the 
printer -- I can continue to 
> use all my matte papers and use the HPR Satin when I need more of a 
gloss.
> 
>  I absolutely love HPR Satin for B&W, but am becoming less 
enchanted with it for color -- 
> it's fine, but doesn't really look much better than my color prints 
on Innova Smooth 
> Cotton.  As mentioned earlier, certain areas take on a differential 
reflectivity that makes 
> them have a brown/purplish sheen when tilted against the light.  
But it hasn't been 
> noticeable to me for B&W; only for color.  Plus, in general, the 
HPR Satin has a bit too 
> much texture for all uses.
> 
> I'm eagerly looking forward to the Crane Silver Rag, though; if 
it's good enough, I might 
> swap my 4800 over to Photo Black.  (Or get a 9800 plus the new 
version of ImagePrint 
> with the Phatte Black mode to allow both Photo and Matte Black to 
be loaded at the same 
> time without swapping, and keep my 4800 dedicated to Matte Black).
> 
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 

> <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Greg,
> > 
> > Which black ink does Hahnemuhle recommend for HPR Satin? PK or MK?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Scott (who prints using a 4800 with PK) : > )
> > 
> > 
> >
>

Well, Chip, here's that review of ColorBytes Phatte Black System.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/phatte-black.shtml

After reading it, I think I'd rather just buy another 4800 and 
dedicate it to MK than to purchase IP 6.1. The cost is about the same.

Of course, if someone already owns IP 6.1, then that may be a 
different story.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
>
> I'm not Greg, but I use the HPR Satin, and it's intended for use 
with Matte Black, which is 
> great for those of us who have only Matte Black loaded in the 
printer -- I can continue to 
> use all my matte papers and use the HPR Satin when I need more of a 
gloss.
> 
>  I absolutely love HPR Satin for B&W, but am becoming less 
enchanted with it for color -- 
> it's fine, but doesn't really look much better than my color prints 
on Innova Smooth 
> Cotton.  As mentioned earlier, certain areas take on a differential 
reflectivity that makes 
> them have a brown/purplish sheen when tilted against the light.  
But it hasn't been 
> noticeable to me for B&W; only for color.  Plus, in general, the 
HPR Satin has a bit too 
> much texture for all uses.
> 
> I'm eagerly looking forward to the Crane Silver Rag, though; if 
it's good enough, I might 
> swap my 4800 over to Photo Black.  (Or get a 9800 plus the new 
version of ImagePrint 
> with the Phatte Black mode to allow both Photo and Matte Black to 
be loaded at the same 
> time without swapping, and keep my 4800 dedicated to Matte Black).
> 
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 

> <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Greg,
> > 
> > Which black ink does Hahnemuhle recommend for HPR Satin? PK or MK?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Scott (who prints using a 4800 with PK) : > )
> > 
> > 
> >
>