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paper industry

paper industry

2005-12-13 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

OK people, you lost me. What is it about the paper industry that people 
find so scary? If you know the entire chain from trees to the box of 
paper arriving at your desk, how does it benefit you?

The paper industry works like many market sectors - by contract 
manufacturing. You don't think that everyone who sells a brand of 
pineapple juice has their own factory do you? You don't think that every 
brand of motor oil comes from a separate factory do you? You don't think 
that your Lands' End shirts come from a Lands' End factory do you?

Paper making is by and large a batch process. You can make a batch in 
your bathroom - but not very much, and your batch-to-batch repeatability 
will be pretty bad. We have artists in my town that do just that - they 
make hand made paper and sell it as art. The *lack* of repeatability is 
what they are selling in large part.

This is problematic if you want to sell to a clientele who demands each 
roll or piece of paper is the same as the last one. If you want to sell 
a paper that is largely repeatable from batch to batch, and you want to 
sell it at a competitive price, you are going to have to automate a 
large part of the manufacturing process and make the batches fairly 
large. This takes a fair amount of expensive equipment, and takes a fair 
amount of space. Unless you are able to sell enough volume to keep this 
equipment running 24x7, you probably wouldn't make the investment.

Enter contract manufacturers. These people think they can invest in the 
plant and equipment required and make a profit. They do this by making 
paper for lots of different "manufacturers." The way it works is you 
come up with your recipe for a paper you want, and they use the recipe 
and make that paper for you. There are hundreds of variables in paper 
making, so it's a pretty safe bet that no one is going to duplicate your 
recipe. What you get from the contract manufacturer is a roll of paper 
(a "master roll") that's roughly 1.25m (49 in.) wide by 1.25m (49 in.) 
in diameter and weigh in the neighborhood of 5000 Kg ( 11,000 lbs.). 
Sizes vary depending on the manufacturing line and your requirements of 
course.

Now if you are going to sell paper to the inkjet market, this clearly 
isn't enough. So you take this roll of paper to another contract 
manufacturer and have them coat the paper with an inkjet receptive 
coating. This is a separate market all by itself. There are companies 
that make and sell coatings. There are consultants who act as liaisons 
matching papers and coatings for people. There are chemists who 
specialize in making coatings for hire. And of course you can design 
your own. So you bring the coating to the company with the coating 
machines, and they coat your substrate for you.

When you get done with that, you've got a master roll that's coated. 
Still not enough.

Now you have to convert that master roll into something that an inkjet 
printer can use, and you have to package it into nice pretty boxes with 
brand names and labels. This requires yet another contract manufacturer 
with more specialized machines, including slitters (work down the length 
of the roll) and cutters (work across the width of the roll). And of 
course sheet stackers and various packaging machines.

Now tell me -- what good will it do any of us to know who "actually 
made" the paper? You can't go to any of them directly and buy paper from 
them. First, they aren't equipped to deal with a retail market. Second, 
most of the manufacturing chain is selling a single value-add operation 
at a time. IOW, if you could buy it, it would be unfinished to the point 
where you couldn't use it. Third, the manufacturer who is retailing this 
paper to you can switch contracts at any time based on any number of 
factors. You can't know that any one factory is going to make your 
favorite paper at any point in time. Fourth, contract manufacturing 
firms changes hands from time to time, and deal factories back and forth.

Very few paper companies bother to be end-to-end manufacturers. Fewer 
still in the inkjet marketplace. So why the insistence that "knowing" 
will somehow benefit us in any way?

What you need to know is the company responsible for the brand, and 
their retailers who stock and ship the papers to you. These are the 
people who have to come up with a product that is desirable enough to 
capture some market share. These are the people who have to insure the 
quality of the product, and the batch-to-batch repeatability. These are 
the people who have to back the product and support their customers.

I don't see how knowing more than that is helpful. I'm sure someone will 
set me straight on that though ;-)
-- 
Bruce Watson

Re: [Digital BW] paper industry

2005-12-13 by Steve Kale

In that case I'll stick with the well-known brands that have an established
performance, Hahnemuhle for example, until I see a massively demonstrable
reason for switching including substantial longevity testing.  It's all
about ex ante uncertainty.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: <hogarth@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:04:24 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] paper industry
> 
> OK people, you lost me. What is it about the paper industry that people
> find so scary? If you know the entire chain from trees to the box of
> paper arriving at your desk, how does it benefit you?
> 
> The paper industry works like many market sectors - by contract
> manufacturing. You don't think that everyone who sells a brand of
> pineapple juice has their own factory do you? You don't think that every
> brand of motor oil comes from a separate factory do you? You don't think
> that your Lands' End shirts come from a Lands' End factory do you?
> 
> Paper making is by and large a batch process. You can make a batch in
> your bathroom - but not very much, and your batch-to-batch repeatability
> will be pretty bad. We have artists in my town that do just that - they
> make hand made paper and sell it as art. The *lack* of repeatability is
> what they are selling in large part.
> 
> This is problematic if you want to sell to a clientele who demands each
> roll or piece of paper is the same as the last one. If you want to sell
> a paper that is largely repeatable from batch to batch, and you want to
> sell it at a competitive price, you are going to have to automate a
> large part of the manufacturing process and make the batches fairly
> large. This takes a fair amount of expensive equipment, and takes a fair
> amount of space. Unless you are able to sell enough volume to keep this
> equipment running 24x7, you probably wouldn't make the investment.
> 
> Enter contract manufacturers. These people think they can invest in the
> plant and equipment required and make a profit. They do this by making
> paper for lots of different "manufacturers." The way it works is you
> come up with your recipe for a paper you want, and they use the recipe
> and make that paper for you. There are hundreds of variables in paper
> making, so it's a pretty safe bet that no one is going to duplicate your
> recipe. What you get from the contract manufacturer is a roll of paper
> (a "master roll") that's roughly 1.25m (49 in.) wide by 1.25m (49 in.)
> in diameter and weigh in the neighborhood of 5000 Kg ( 11,000 lbs.).
> Sizes vary depending on the manufacturing line and your requirements of
> course.
> 
> Now if you are going to sell paper to the inkjet market, this clearly
> isn't enough. So you take this roll of paper to another contract
> manufacturer and have them coat the paper with an inkjet receptive
> coating. This is a separate market all by itself. There are companies
> that make and sell coatings. There are consultants who act as liaisons
> matching papers and coatings for people. There are chemists who
> specialize in making coatings for hire. And of course you can design
> your own. So you bring the coating to the company with the coating
> machines, and they coat your substrate for you.
> 
> When you get done with that, you've got a master roll that's coated.
> Still not enough.
> 
> Now you have to convert that master roll into something that an inkjet
> printer can use, and you have to package it into nice pretty boxes with
> brand names and labels. This requires yet another contract manufacturer
> with more specialized machines, including slitters (work down the length
> of the roll) and cutters (work across the width of the roll). And of
> course sheet stackers and various packaging machines.
> 
> Now tell me -- what good will it do any of us to know who "actually
> made" the paper? You can't go to any of them directly and buy paper from
> them. First, they aren't equipped to deal with a retail market. Second,
> most of the manufacturing chain is selling a single value-add operation
> at a time. IOW, if you could buy it, it would be unfinished to the point
> where you couldn't use it. Third, the manufacturer who is retailing this
> paper to you can switch contracts at any time based on any number of
> factors. You can't know that any one factory is going to make your
> favorite paper at any point in time. Fourth, contract manufacturing
> firms changes hands from time to time, and deal factories back and forth.
> 
> Very few paper companies bother to be end-to-end manufacturers. Fewer
> still in the inkjet marketplace. So why the insistence that "knowing"
> will somehow benefit us in any way?
> 
> What you need to know is the company responsible for the brand, and
> their retailers who stock and ship the papers to you. These are the
> people who have to come up with a product that is desirable enough to
> capture some market share. These are the people who have to insure the
> quality of the product, and the batch-to-batch repeatability. These are
> the people who have to back the product and support their customers.
> 
> I don't see how knowing more than that is helpful. I'm sure someone will
> set me straight on that though ;-)
> -- 
> Bruce Watson

Re: paper industry

2005-12-13 by kenstrain2000

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote:
>
> OK people, you lost me. What is it about the paper industry that people 
> find so scary? 
OK here is a quiz.

Vendors A, B and C have contract manufacturing done by 1 and 2.  
A (my favourite paper) uses 1, but after a while changes to 2, and my
clients don't like the change.  But I know enough  to realise that
vendor B also gets paper made by 1, whereas I have no idea which
manufacturer C uses.  

Guess which paper I try next?

I know this is oversimplified, but I think it illustrates the source
of the desire to be well informed, and hints at the benefits to the
vendor as well as the customer.

I can think of other benefits too: information rarely hurts the
customer, I think.  (E.g. if I am testing papers and know for sure
that two are identical, I can try the cheaper.)  


Ken

Re: [Digital BW] Re: paper industry

2005-12-13 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

kenstrain2000 wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote:
> >
> > OK people, you lost me. What is it about the paper industry that people
> > find so scary?
> OK here is a quiz.
>
> Vendors A, B and C have contract manufacturing done by 1 and 2.

But they get coated by vendors x, y, and z.

And converted by vendors n, m, o, and p.

The thing is that vendors 1 and 2 are using the recipes of vendors A, B, 
and C, and these recipes go with vendors A, B, and C, and contractually 
can not stay with vendors 1 and 2.

>  
> A (my favourite paper) uses 1, but after a while changes to 2, and my
> clients don't like the change.  But I know enough  to realise that
> vendor B also gets paper made by 1

But not to the same recipe - and that's the problem. The paper that 
vendor B gets made by vendor 1 is almost certainly different than the 
paper vendor A gets made by vendor 1. You can change, but you get a 
different paper.

And this doesn't talk about the coatings, without which inkjet printing 
is just a blur (pun intended ;-).

> , whereas I have no idea which
> manufacturer C uses. 
>
> Guess which paper I try next?

I don't know - which one? Whichever it is, you'll get something 
different than what A was getting from 1.

>
> I know this is oversimplified, but I think it illustrates the source
> of the desire to be well informed, and hints at the benefits to the
> vendor as well as the customer.

My point is, knowing the manufacturing chain doesn't necessarily make 
you well informed.

>
> I can think of other benefits too: information rarely hurts the
> customer, I think.

>   (E.g. if I am testing papers and know for sure
> that two are identical, 

On that we can agree. I just see this as happening very rarely - two 
differently branded papers actually being the same - same paper, same 
coating. There's every incentive for them to be different. Same paper, 
different coatings, or different papers same coating, neither of which 
is interchangeable.

> I can try the cheaper.) 
>
>
> Ken

This idea would work where the paper plants are making generic papers 
for generic processes - like laser copier paper. But in the fine art 
world, the paper plants aren't making generic papers. They are making 
special orders on contract to a specification in the contract. And 
therein, I think, lies the problem.
--
Bruce Watson

[Digital BW] Re: paper industry

2005-12-14 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... 
wrote:

> On that we can agree. I just see this as happening very rarely - 
two 
> differently branded papers actually being the same - same paper, 
same 
> coating. There's every incentive for them to be different. Same 
paper, 
> different coatings, or different papers same coating, neither of 
which 
> is interchangeable.
> 
>

Just a note: Hahnemuhle sells a lot of paper to different places that 
then put their "house brand" name on the box. Mediastreet Royal Plush 
is exactly the same as German Etching. I have had both side by side, 
the profiles that I made were as close to identical as measurement 
and printer errors would allow. Pretty much all the Royal papers are 
a Hahnemuhle product. Lyson buys the same papers and calls them 
something else, as does several other places. Knowing this cross 
reference table could help you in a pinch.

[Digital BW] Re: paper industry

2005-12-15 by kenstrain2000

Yes, it should be no surprise that one of the  manufacturers I had in
mind was actually Hahnemuehle, and there are many examples of
"needless"  confusion caused by marketing these under different names.
 (At least from the customer point of view.)  I am moderately
convinced there are a a least a few other examples, but I am not
sufficiently sure to spread rumours.
Ken
ps. I did say I was simplifying in my "quiz".  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Just a note: Hahnemuhle sells a lot of paper to different places that 
> then put their "house brand" name on the box. Mediastreet Royal Plush 
> is exactly the same as German Etching. I have had both side by side, 
> the profiles that I made were as close to identical as measurement 
> and printer errors would allow. Pretty much all the Royal papers are 
> a Hahnemuhle product. Lyson buys the same papers and calls them 
> something else, as does several other places. Knowing this cross 
> reference table could help you in a pinch.
>

[Digital BW] Re: paper industry

2005-12-15 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kenstrain2000" 
<kenstrain2000@y...> wrote:
>
> Yes, it should be no surprise that one of the  manufacturers I had in
> mind was actually Hahnemuehle, and there are many examples of
> "needless"  confusion caused by marketing these under different names.


Yes there are others, but I can't remember their names either. I know 
that the Inkjetart MC gloss and luster papers are the same as one of 
the Epson gloss and luster papers, but you'd have to look through the 
forum over there to find out which exact papers they are.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: paper industry

2005-12-15 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

Greg wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kenstrain2000"
> <kenstrain2000@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, it should be no surprise that one of the  manufacturers I had in
> > mind was actually Hahnemuehle, and there are many examples of
> > "needless"  confusion caused by marketing these under different names.
>
>
> Yes there are others, but I can't remember their names either. I know
> that the Inkjetart MC gloss and luster papers are the same as one of
> the Epson gloss and luster papers, but you'd have to look through the
> forum over there to find out which exact papers they are.

For cases like this - where a retailer doesn't do anything other than 
rebrand an existing brand of paper, like (a fictional company) 
MyMediaMart wanting to sell HPR 308gms rebranded to be MyMediaMart Photo 
Rag 308gms, then I can see why people would want to know who is 
rebranding whom. Even at that, it would seem difficult for MyMediaMart 
to use the rebranded paper for much more than a loss-leader since 
Hahnemuhle's wholesale price on it would have to include profit for 
Hahnemuhle, making it more expensive for MyMediaMart and thus making it 
very difficult for MyMediaMart to compete at retail with the original 
HPR branded paper.

Wanting to trace back farther in the chain than this though, is of 
questionable help. For me at least it just adds confusion without 
increasing clarity.
--
Bruce Watson

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