Digital BW, The Print

I went to a camera shop to buy a 2400, but their printing "expert" said some 
things that gave me pause; questions I'd like to pose here:
1. He said you can't get a good dmax using the Epson inks on matte paper. If I 
wanted deep blacks, I'd have to print on luster or glossy papers. Is this true? 
Are others getting rich blacks with the Epson inks? If so, are you doing it with 
the ABW driver or having to use QTR?
2. He had heard of people using MIS eboni instead of the MK, but warned that 
if the print head failed, the warranty would be voided. Has anyone had a print 
head fail? Wondering how often this happens and how others have handled 
(rationalized) this risk?

Cheers,
George Le Masurier

Hello George,

I'll take a crack at this, and hope others will pitch in as well.

>1. He said you can't get a good dmax using the Epson inks on 
>matte paper. If I wanted deep blacks, I'd have to print on 
>luster or glossy papers. Is this true? 

It depends on your definition of "good" and "deep".  It is true that
with pigment inks, the glossy papers (which require the Photo Black
ink [PK]) produce better dmax than matte papers (which require the
Matte Black ink [MK]).  What is important to understand is that this
is not something that is isolated to the 2400.  It's an ink/paper
issue that's common to all the pigment printers.  There is no reason
to avoid the 2400 for dmax reasons.  Whether or not the matte paper
dmax is acceptable only you can answer.  But that issue shouldn't
affect your choice of printer.  Either way, the 2400 is one of the
best printers for BW ever made (and the other K3 models of course).



>Are others getting rich blacks with the Epson inks? 

It depends on your definition of "rich".  Many matte paper users love
the quality they get (regardless of which printer) and use words like
"rich", "gorgeous", "luxurious", etc. when describing their prints. 
Others won't settle for anything less than the kind of dmax they get
from the glossy papers.  It just depends on what you want.  Carbon ink
prints on matte paper definitely have their own unique look.  People
often say they resemble platinum prints.  I print exclusively on matte
papers and have come to love the absense of reflections.  Sure I would
like better dmax, but the prints I'm getting are beautiful and I'd
rather accept that than go back to reflective paper.  In a frame
behind glass I've had carbon ink prints on matte paper that are
indestinguishable from the same image on silver paper right next to it
(prints made on top notch papers such as Oriental Seagull, Galerie and
Ilford MGFB).


>If so, are you doing it with the ABW driver or having to use QTR?

I think the people who use QTR with the 2400 are doing it for other
reasons than dmax (using different inks or wanting to avoid the use of
Yellow, for example).



>2.He had heard of people using MIS eboni instead of the MK, but 
>warned that if the print head failed, the warranty would be 
>voided. 

I've heard that, but haven't heard any reports of it actually
happening.  As for Eboni, reports here seem to indicate that Eboni
dmax is better on some matte papers, and the K3 MK is better on
others.  The 2400 out of the box is top notch.


>Has anyone had a print head fail? Wondering how often this happens
and how others have handled (rationalized) this risk?

Not in my experience, and I can't remember hearing of that happening.
   From reports here it seems like most printers die for other reasons.


I use a 2400 and I love it.  It's a great printer and very versatile.
 There is an easy workflow outlined in article #9 at the web link below.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

In the US this is incorrect. Epson or any other concern doing business
cannot negate a warranty based on use of competing supplies. It is
considered illegal restraint of trade. Instead they must prove in
court that the supply directly causes harm and seek remedy against the
 supplier, Not the consumer. That is not to say that one of their
retail sources may not try to get away with it by assuming their
customers won't know better.

Regards
Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "glemasurier"
<george.lemasurier@m...> wrote:
>
> I went to a camera shop to buy a 2400, but their printing "expert"
said some 
> things that gave me pause; questions I'd like to pose here:

> 2. He had heard of people using MIS eboni instead of the MK, but
warned that 
> if the print head failed, the warranty would be voided. Has anyone
had a print 

> head fail? Wondering how often this happens and how others have handled 
> (rationalized) this risk?
> 
> Cheers,
> George Le Masurier
>

I'm no lawyer, but if this isn't the case, it damn well ought to be. 
Retailers will, however, give you a hard time if you admit to 3rd 
party inks, so don't. I have extensive experience at returning 
printers(9 so far, but none for any problem atributable to the inks) 
and I've been quizzed on this every time. My advice is, don't 
completely use up the initial set of OEM carts, so if you do have to 
retun the printer, you won't have to spend $60-100 on a set of carts.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "dlruckus" 
<dlruckus@y...> wrote:
>
> In the US this is incorrect. Epson or any other concern doing 
business
> cannot negate a warranty based on use of competing supplies. It is
> considered illegal restraint of trade. Instead they must prove in
> court that the supply directly causes harm and seek remedy against 
the
>  supplier, Not the consumer. That is not to say that one of their
> retail sources may not try to get away with it by assuming their
> customers won't know better.
> 
> Regards
> Duane
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "glemasurier"
> <george.lemasurier@m...> wrote:
> >
> > I went to a camera shop to buy a 2400, but their 
printing "expert"
> said some 
> > things that gave me pause; questions I'd like to pose here:
> 
> > 2. He had heard of people using MIS eboni instead of the MK, but
> warned that 
> > if the print head failed, the warranty would be voided. Has 
anyone
> had a print 
> > head fail? Wondering how often this happens and how others have 
handled 

> > (rationalized) this risk?
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > George Le Masurier
> >
>

Anti Trust or Monopoly laws "The Sherman Act"
  Have them put the warranty infringement in writting and you will make a mint when you sue. They will never put what they are telling you in writting for it's against the law to do so.

Steven Karafyllakis <steve@...> wrote:
  I'm no lawyer, but if this isn't the case, it damn well ought to be. 
Retailers will, however, give you a hard time if you admit to 3rd 
party inks, so don't. I have extensive experience at returning 
printers(9 so far, but none for any problem atributable to the inks) 
and I've been quizzed on this every time. My advice is, don't 
completely use up the initial set of OEM carts, so if you do have to 
retun the printer, you won't have to spend $60-100 on a set of carts.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" 
<dlruckus@y...> wrote:
>
> In the US this is incorrect. Epson or any other concern doing 
business
> cannot negate a warranty based on use of competing supplies. It is
> considered illegal restraint of trade. Instead they must prove in
> court that the supply directly causes harm and seek remedy against 
the
>  supplier, Not the consumer. That is not to say that one of their
> retail sources may not try to get away with it by assuming their
> customers won't know better.
> 
> Regards
> Duane
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "glemasurier"
> <george.lemasurier@m...> wrote:
> >
> > I went to a camera shop to buy a 2400, but their 
printing "expert"
> said some 
> > things that gave me pause; questions I'd like to pose here:
> 
> > 2. He had heard of people using MIS eboni instead of the MK, but
> warned that 
> > if the print head failed, the warranty would be voided. Has 
anyone
> had a print 
> > head fail? Wondering how often this happens and how others have 
handled 
> > (rationalized) this risk?
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > George Le Masurier
> >
>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks to all who responded. I figured this was simply a strong arm tactic by 
the Epson retailer, and, as a business person myself, I understand their 
motivation because the real profit is in ink sales, not printer sales.

So, I bought the 2400, and love the B&W out of the box. Actually, "better" 
blacks than my C84 with EZ inks (at least to my eye, Clayton). Compared side 
to side from  the same file/neg, the 2400 print shows significantly smoother in 
the solid black areas, while the C84 EZ print shows more what I call spots or 
blotches in the solid black areas.

Will I get the same (or improved) results with third party inks? Or, do the 
Epson inks produce the best B&W?

Clatyon, I'm going back to read your article on color management and 
profiles, a small light bulb went off (about 25w, I think) while reading the 
Epson documentation. I might be close to begining to understand what in 
heck you're talking about. I appreciate your patience.

Cheers,
George