Digital BW, The Print

Now that I seem to be getting good metamerism-free BW results on my 
2200 based on my tests of QTR, I'm ready to start selecting paper.

Currently I'm using EEM, but due to its acid content it's not really 
archival.   I'm looking for a flake-free, archival, matte, heavy paper 
with contrast at least as good as the EEM.   An added bonus would be if 
I could buy it locally (New England) so I don't have to buy it on the 
web.

Some people have suggested Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, and they are stocked 
by several dealers within an hour drive of me.  But when I went to 
their website I found LOTS of products listed as "Photo Rag" and very 
confusing descriptions.  For example Photo Rag 308 is described as semi-
gloss and semi-matt IN THE SAME description! 

Suggestions?

Hello Peter,

>I'm looking for a flake-free, archival, matte, heavy paper 
>with contrast at least as good as the EEM.   

The only paper I know of that I would call completely flake free with
any confidence is Museo Max.  It is also extraordinarily resistant to
scratching and scuffing, and is a very handsome looking paper and
without OBAs.  Unfortunately its dmax is not as good as EEM, PR, VFA,
etc. - its primary shortcoming.  Over all contrast is also a bit
lower.  I've had to add a contrast curve to make it match the EEM proof.

Hahnemuhle papers have some of the highest dmax ratings but also a
reputation for bad flaking.  My own experience agrees with that.

Innova papers and VFA are good candidates.  The "Paper chase" article
at the link below has a review of about 25 popular papers and lists
various characteristics.

I haven't yet found the perfect matte paper.  If I could combine VFA's
dmax, contrast and glow, with Max's durability and PR's surface
texture, I'd be one happy camper.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

"Peter Nelson" <pnweb@...> wrote:

>...I'm looking for a flake-free, archival, matte, heavy paper 
>with contrast at least as good as the EEM.   An added bonus would be 
if 
> I could buy it locally (New England) so I don't have to buy it on the 
> web.
> 

If you don't mind a "natural" color finish, I've been getting some 
excellent results with Hahnemuhle William Turner.  It's matte, slightly 
textured, retains fine detail quite well, and has, imho, a very nice 
depth.  It's available at Inkjet Mall, out of Vermont.  The paper 
responds well to Epson Velvet Fine Art curves in QTR.

Al Benas

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benasaj" 
<al.benas@...> wrote:
 
> If you don't mind a "natural" color finish, I've been getting some 
> excellent results with Hahnemuhle William Turner.  It's matte, 
slightly 
> textured, retains fine detail quite well, and has, imho, a very 
nice 
> depth.  

I can get the Hahnemuhle paper locally at Hunt's about a 15 minute 
drive from here.   But I'm concerned about the flaking problem.  My 
photos and painting reflect my personality : DARK.  So even a tiny 
bit of coating flaking off will shine like a lighthouse!

And considering the cost of the ink and sheet of paper for 13X19 inch 
print I don't want to have to re-do a lot prints because of 
flaking.   How bad is the flaking problem and what can I do to 
minimize it?

Also how bad IS the EEM?   I was looking at some test prints I 
made about 2 years ago when it was called "Archival" that have just 
been sitting in a wire basket, unprotected from anything during that 
time, and I don't see any yellowing yet.

The flaking comes mostly from sheet papers. All the extra cutting must 
kick up a lot of dust. To minimize the flakes, brush the sheets off 
before you print on them.

I have found a very nice matte paper which is extremely durable, has
good dmax, and performs very well with piezography inks.  It is Legion
Photo Matte.  Great paper.  I just wish I could find it in a 17 inch
wide roll for my 4000.

Mike
www.tiktinskyphoto.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
> The flaking comes mostly from sheet papers. All the extra cutting 
must 
> kick up a lot of dust. To minimize the flakes, brush the sheets off 
> before you print on them.

Oh.  Maybe I don't understand the problem.   I thought the flakes are 
the coating coming off the paper.  Like you print on a spot but then 
the spot of coating you just printed on falls off along with the ink 
you just printed, leaving just a white hole.

You're saying that the flakes are just left over from the manufacturing 
process but the coating that's on the paper is solidly adhered to 
it.     Can someone confirm this?   Because if that's the case i'm not 
as worried.   Thanks in advance!

Peter Nelson wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
> <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
> 
>>The flaking comes mostly from sheet papers. All the extra cutting 
> 
> must 
> 
>>kick up a lot of dust. To minimize the flakes, brush the sheets off 
>>before you print on them.
> 
> 
> Oh.  Maybe I don't understand the problem.   I thought the flakes are 
> the coating coming off the paper.  Like you print on a spot but then 
> the spot of coating you just printed on falls off along with the ink 
> you just printed, leaving just a white hole.
> 
> You're saying that the flakes are just left over from the manufacturing 
> process but the coating that's on the paper is solidly adhered to 
> it.     Can someone confirm this?   Because if that's the case i'm not 
> as worried.   Thanks in advance!
> 

Peter;
It can be both, but generally when speaking of Hahnemuhle, it's small 
specks of the coating that are coming off.

This is not as big a problem as it sounds. As mentioned above brushing 
each sheet eliminates the flaking. The times it doesn't, I just touch-up 
with UC I've stored away in jars.

Hope this helps.

-PC


Carr Imaging
patcarr@...
www.patrickcarrimaging.com

Peter,

>You're saying that the flakes are just left over from the 
>manufacturing process but the coating that's on the paper is 
>solidly adhered to it.  Can someone confirm this?   

My understanding is that white spots that we refer to as "flaking" can
be caused by both reasons.  There can be residual mfg dust.  But the
coating itself flaking off is also a very real problem.

A paper vendor told me in a phone conversation last summer that the
reason there is a general correlation between high dmax and high
flaking, is because both are related to the density of the coating. 
The denser the coating the better the dmax and also the greater the
chance of flaking.  This is why H. papers are famous for both.  This
vendor said that the reason their papers have slightly less dmax than
H. papers is because they wanted to lessen flaking, and settled on
what they thought was a good balance between the two.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

In a message dated 2/2/06 5:58:21 PM, cj@... writes:


> >You're saying that the flakes are just left over from the
> >manufacturing process but the coating that's on the paper is
> >solidly adhered to it.  Can someone confirm this?  
> 
> My understanding is that white spots that we refer to as "flaking" can
> be caused by both reasons.  There can be residual mfg dust.  But the
> coating itself flaking off is also a very real problem.
> 
Definately both, and they can also occur with the built in cutter in wide 
format printers. 
> 
> A paper vendor told me in a phone conversation last summer that the
> reason there is a general correlation between high dmax and high
> flaking, is because both are related to the density of the coating.
> The denser the coating the better the dmax and also the greater the
> chance of flaking.  This is why H. papers are famous for both.  This
> vendor said that the reason their papers have slightly less dmax than
> H. papers is because they wanted to lessen flaking, and settled on
> what they thought was a good balance between the two.
> 
> Right, but if you can produce a paper coating that is less brittle and 
flakey, and more tough and leathery, then it is less prone to dimpling off when you 
bend the paper, less prone to dusting when you cut the paper, and less prone 
to adhering on top of the paper as stray scrids that need to be brushed away 
before running the sheet through the printer. Thats why the more recent version 
of Entrada is far more practical for printing images with large dark areas 
than most other art papers, and older versions of Entrada. I find my print loss 
rate to "dandruff" related problems to be about 90 percent lower.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> ...But I'm concerned about the flaking problem.  My 
> photos and painting reflect my personality : DARK.  So even a tiny 
> bit of coating flaking off will shine like a lighthouse!
> 

I have been printing for the last two weeks for an up coming show.  I 
use a drafting brush and canned air on each sheet before I run it 
through the printer.  So far, I've only got 2 very small flakes, one on 
each of 2 different sheets, and they've been on Moab Entrada.  A dot 
from an ultra fine Sharpie took care of them.  The William Turner has 
been flawless.  Maybe it's more stable because it comes from 
their "art" product line instead of their "photo" line.  Maybe I've 
just been damn lucky. 


Al Benas

Hello C. David,

>Right, but if you can produce a paper coating that is less brittle 
>and flakey, and more tough and leathery, then it is less prone to 
>dimpling off when you bend the paper, less prone to dusting when 
>you cut the paper, and less prone to adhering on top of the paper 
>as stray scrids that need to be brushed away before running the 
>sheet through the printer. 

Thanks for the reply, you have pretty much answered one of my
questions, which was whether some newer coating technologies might not
be bound by that rule of thumb.  The new Max paper is a good example.
 They have definitely done something different because you can't
scrape any ink off with a fingernail. The paper is damaged before any
ink comes off.  Pretty amazing stuff.


>Thats why the more recent version 
>of Entrada is far more practical for printing images with large 
>dark areas than most other art papers, and older versions of 
>Entrada. I find my print loss rate to "dandruff" related problems 
>to be about 90 percent lower.

Agreed.  My original Entrada had the worst flaking of all, really
horrendous, and that was after a vigorous wipe and blow with
compressed air.  But the new stuff is almost a completely different
paper.  Much improved.  Unfortunately, both it and Max have dmax that
is inferior to several other papers.  I only use them for images that
don't suffer from that.  Too bad because they are both really nice
papers in all other respects.  I posted a report here a few days ago
that described my attempt to use Max to match a VFA print with K3 ink
- just couldn't make it.  I'm still waiting for my dream paper...

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benasaj" 
<al.benas@...> wrote:
> The William Turner has 
> been flawless.  Maybe it's more stable because it comes from 
> their "art" product line instead of their "photo" line.  Maybe I've 
> just been damn lucky. 
> 
> 
> Al Benas
>

I've had really good luck with German Etching on rolls.

Re Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, I've gone through a box and a half and only had flaking once or twice. It's well worth that attrition rate for the results it gives, IMO.

I'm going to try A3+ Epson Velvet as well, however, as it also sounds fabulous.

Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com


   People are not remembered by how few times they fail 
   but by how often they succeed. Every wrong step is 
   another step forward."
   --Thomas Edison

Hello Richard,

>Re Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, I've gone through a box and a half and only 
>had flaking once or twice. It's well worth that attrition rate for 
>the results it gives, IMO.

What sort of pre-print "treatment" do you give it?

 
>I'm going to try A3+ Epson Velvet as well, however, as it also 
>sounds fabulous.

It's biggest drawback, for me, is the texture.  On many images it
isn't noticeable, but it hurts certain ones.  It seems to somehow fill
in the texture in the dark areas so it doesn't show much, as if it
swells a bit, but it's more obvious in lighter zones.  That's why its
effect varies among different images.  But it sure sings with K3 aside
from that.  Deep rich blacks, good luminance, good shadow separation,
good contrast, good fine detail resolution.

Please give us a report when you try it.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hi Clayton,
At 05:07 PM Friday 2/3/2006, you wrote:
>>Re Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, I've gone through a box and a half and only 
>>had flaking once or twice. It's well worth that attrition rate for 
>>the results it gives, IMO.
>
>What sort of pre-print "treatment" do you give it?

Funnily enough, the flaking occurred once when I'd wiped it down with an old cloth, which makes me think that there must have been something on the cloth. Now I just inpect it for particles on the surface and it has not for ages.

>>I'm going to try A3+ Epson Velvet as well, however, as it also 
>>sounds fabulous.
>
>It's biggest drawback, for me, is the texture.  On many images it
>isn't noticeable, but it hurts certain ones.  It seems to somehow fill
>in the texture in the dark areas so it doesn't show much, as if it
>swells a bit, but it's more obvious in lighter zones.  That's why its
>effect varies among different images.  But it sure sings with K3 aside
>from that.  Deep rich blacks, good luminance, good shadow separation,
>good contrast, good fine detail resolution.

Thanks. I'm using a 2100 with UC and QTR.

>Please give us a report when you try it.

Will do,
Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com


   "If you haven't all the things you want, be grateful for the 
   things you don't have that you wouldn't want"
   --anon

Thank you Clayton for that report...it jibes w/my experiences..my 
best prints so far made on the earlier Moab Entrada, w/MIS UT, on the 
1160 (but that paper did need a brush before running it through the 
printer). I just saw a print last week I made and framed w/Crescent 
rag mat, metal frame.. 4 years ago w/that recipe, hanging in a very 
bright-lit sunroom in a client's north-facing home here in Santa Fe 
(7200 ft. elevation, very bright light), and it has not shifted or 
faded at all.
Best,
Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@...> wrote:
>
> Hello C. David,
> 
> >Right, but if you can produce a paper coating that is less brittle 
> >and flakey, and more tough and leathery, then it is less prone to 
> >dimpling off when you bend the paper, less prone to dusting when 
> >you cut the paper, and less prone to adhering on top of the paper 
> >as stray scrids that need to be brushed away before running the 
> >sheet through the printer. 
> 
> Thanks for the reply, you have pretty much answered one of my
> questions, which was whether some newer coating technologies might 
not
> be bound by that rule of thumb.  The new Max paper is a good 
example.
>  They have definitely done something different because you can't
> scrape any ink off with a fingernail. The paper is damaged before 
any
> ink comes off.  Pretty amazing stuff.
> 
> 
> >Thats why the more recent version 
> >of Entrada is far more practical for printing images with large 
> >dark areas than most other art papers, and older versions of 
> >Entrada. I find my print loss rate to "dandruff" related problems 
> >to be about 90 percent lower.
> 
> Agreed.  My original Entrada had the worst flaking of all, really
> horrendous, and that was after a vigorous wipe and blow with
> compressed air.  But the new stuff is almost a completely different
> paper.  Much improved.  Unfortunately, both it and Max have dmax 
that
> is inferior to several other papers.  I only use them for images 
that
> don't suffer from that.  Too bad because they are both really nice
> papers in all other respects.  I posted a report here a few days ago
> that described my attempt to use Max to match a VFA print with K3 
ink

> - just couldn't make it.  I'm still waiting for my dream paper...
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

For the most part.  Also dust from the cutting process where large rolls are
cut down to size.  Also "coatings" that are infused as part of the substrate
manufacturing process rather than being coated on afterwards are much less
likely to "flake".

> From: Peter Nelson <pnweb@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:23:25 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Choosing a paper
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
> <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>> The flaking comes mostly from sheet papers. All the extra cutting
> must 
>> kick up a lot of dust. To minimize the flakes, brush the sheets off
>> before you print on them.
> 
> Oh.  Maybe I don't understand the problem.   I thought the flakes are
> the coating coming off the paper.  Like you print on a spot but then
> the spot of coating you just printed on falls off along with the ink
> you just printed, leaving just a white hole.
> 
> You're saying that the flakes are just left over from the manufacturing
> process but the coating that's on the paper is solidly adhered to
> it.     Can someone confirm this?   Because if that's the case i'm not
> as worried.   Thanks in advance!

Peter:
I'm getting good results with Innova FibaPrint with K3 inks and MIS EZ 
inks. The surface is hard and smooth and holds detail like gangbusters. 
For a hard finish paper the dark values are quite rich. No wiping, 
brushing or blowing. Nary a flake in sight in cut sheets or rolls. For 
a more "fine art" look, I like Innova Smooth Cotton. Very light texture 
and deep, velvety blacks. I have seen the odd isolated flake here and 
there, mostly on cut sheets, but not enough to fret about. I see these 
papers in shops more and more but I can't say you'll find them in your 
local photo store. I get mine from Jim Doyle at 
http://www.shadesofpaper.com/ He is based in New Jersey. One of the 
best paper vendors I've had the pleasure of working with. Good prices 
and super fast shipping. In the end, paper selection is such a personal 
thing I think its useful to get some trial packs of different kinds to 
see what you like with your images and stokes your artistic 
sensibillities. Beautiful papers will open alot of creative doors to 
your work. Best of luck in your paper journey.
Lou Meluso

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
> Re Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, I've gone through a box and a half and only
had flaking once or twice. It's well worth that attrition rate for the
results it gives, IMO.

How is it AFTER printing?  Is the coating still delicate and prone to
flaking during the matting and framing process? 

Can we be pretty sure that the flaking doesn't continue over time,
e.g., from micro-swelling of the fibers resulting from ordinary
humidity changes on the room where it's hung?

Maybe I'm just paranoid about it but as an oil painter I'm very aware
of how serious painters give a great deal of attention to properties
of their support (canvas or panel plus gesso) and paints and painting
techniques out of concern for longevity.  Some of the greatest artwork
in the world was lost to history because of bad guesses by the
original artists.  Da Vinci's Last Supper has almost entirely
disintegrated - it's just a ghost of the original.   And not long ago
I was at the MoMA in NY where many paintings from the 1930's are
already cracking badly.

You can spray with  fixative such as Lascaux which helps.  Doesn't do much
if anything for longevity but could potentially help with flaking.

> From: Peter Nelson <pnweb@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:12:12 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Choosing a paper
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
> Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>> Re Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, I've gone through a box and a half and only
> had flaking once or twice. It's well worth that attrition rate for the
> results it gives, IMO.
> 
> How is it AFTER printing?  Is the coating still delicate and prone to
> flaking during the matting and framing process?
> 
> Can we be pretty sure that the flaking doesn't continue over time,
> e.g., from micro-swelling of the fibers resulting from ordinary
> humidity changes on the room where it's hung?
> 
> Maybe I'm just paranoid about it but as an oil painter I'm very aware
> of how serious painters give a great deal of attention to properties
> of their support (canvas or panel plus gesso) and paints and painting
> techniques out of concern for longevity.  Some of the greatest artwork
> in the world was lost to history because of bad guesses by the
> original artists.  Da Vinci's Last Supper has almost entirely
> disintegrated - it's just a ghost of the original.   And not long ago
> I was at the MoMA in NY where many paintings from the 1930's are
> already cracking badly.
>

What I have found with the Hannemuhle papers is that they scuff a lot
more with Ultrachrome inks than other inksets like Cone Piezzo for
instance that are much tougher. I belive the new formulation of Epson
K3 was partially designed to address this issue and should go a long
way to correcting this tenderness of the inks themselves. I have one
client that says her framer makes her pay an additonal handling fee
for non-sprayed Ultrachrome prints. Her prints always have large areas
of pure black. The Piezzotone prints on the same William Turner paper
don't give them problems. You do need to brush them before printing
though. The Epson Ultrasmooth paper was made for the K2 inks. It
doesn't scuff like that.

As for Legion Matte. I used it for several years as an alternative to
Enhanced Matte. It was great for black and white. It has good gamut
and good dmax. However, it is loaded with brighteners and if left in
the open air for a couple of years will definitely yellow out in the
pure white exposed areas. That freaked me out. This is also true of
Epson Enhanced Matte but not as pronounced because it don't have that
much oba content. If you use L Matte you should put it behind glass or
spray it. I just quit using it altogeter. It's not that cheap either.
If you compare its price to the Innova Smooth Cotton rag there isn't
that much of a price difference when it come to rolls. 

John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> The Epson Ultrasmooth paper was made for the K2 inks. It
> doesn't scuff like that.

Actually, how would Ultrasmooth be?  (James Parker also suggested 
this)  I know the MFA in Boston uses it (and a 9600 with Ultrachrome 
inks) for their reproductions and I've seen them and they look very 
good.  Luminous landscape gave it a good rating for dMax.    What are 
the downsides?   I know it's a "natural" white, not a "bright" white, 
but I don't think I'd miss the OBA's.  Experiences?

For color work I really like it. It's tough, even with Ultrachrome,
doesn't transfer blacks in a book format, great gamut, and it is the
sharpest coating I've ever used. It has no oba's and is 100% rag.  For
black and white I don't like it as much it looks a little cold with my
neutral work regardless of the inkset. The only down side for color
that I've experienced is its price, not cheap. But I consider it that
best paper Epson has released under their name.

john  



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> 
> > The Epson Ultrasmooth paper was made for the K2 inks. It
> > doesn't scuff like that.
> 
> Actually, how would Ultrasmooth be?  (James Parker also suggested 
> this)  I know the MFA in Boston uses it (and a 9600 with Ultrachrome 
> inks) for their reproductions and I've seen them and they look very 
> good.  Luminous landscape gave it a good rating for dMax.    What are 
> the downsides?   I know it's a "natural" white, not a "bright" white, 
> but I don't think I'd miss the OBA's.  Experiences?
>

John  -
   
  Are you talking about Epson Ultrasmooth bein a cool/cold tone?
   
  Tom Baker

john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
  For color work I really like it. It's tough, even with Ultrachrome,
doesn't transfer blacks in a book format, great gamut, and it is the
sharpest coating I've ever used. It has no oba's and is 100% rag.  For
black and white I don't like it as much it looks a little cold with my
neutral work regardless of the inkset. The only down side for color
that I've experienced is its price, not cheap. But I consider it that
best paper Epson has released under their name.

john  



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> 
> > The Epson Ultrasmooth paper was made for the K2 inks. It
> > doesn't scuff like that.
> 
> Actually, how would Ultrasmooth be?  (James Parker also suggested 
> this)  I know the MFA in Boston uses it (and a 9600 with Ultrachrome 
> inks) for their reproductions and I've seen them and they look very 
> good.  Luminous landscape gave it a good rating for dMax.    What are 
> the downsides?   I know it's a "natural" white, not a "bright" white, 
> but I don't think I'd miss the OBA's.  Experiences?
>






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John wrote:


> For color work I really like it. It's tough, even with Ultrachrome,
> doesn't transfer blacks in a book format, great gamut, and it is the
> sharpest coating I've ever used. It has no oba's and is 100% rag.

I agree, it's becoming my benchmark paper.

> For black and white I don't like it as much it looks a 
>little cold with my neutral work regardless of the inkset.

With a good profile, this can be handled.  It does tend to go cold in the
shadows with a monotone inkset, however.  With the EZ inks, that is one
reason I recommend a warm in the Y position.  With the variable-tone
inksets, it's just a matter of using an appropriate curve or ICC.

> The only down side for color
> that I've experienced is its price, not cheap. 
> But I consider it that
> best paper Epson has released under their name.

I have some of the "real thing," but I mostly use the Premier Art version,
which is called Premier Art Fine Art Hot Press.  I like the 205 weight due
to its price.  www.atlex.com mow carries this paper.

> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
> <pnweb@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> > <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> >
> > > The Epson Ultrasmooth paper was made for the K2 inks. It
> > > doesn't scuff like that.
> >
> > Actually, how would Ultrasmooth be?  (James Parker also suggested
> > this)  I know the MFA in Boston uses it (and a 9600 with Ultrachrome
> > inks) for their reproductions and I've seen them and they look very
> > good.  Luminous landscape gave it a good rating for dMax.    What are
> > the downsides?   I know it's a "natural" white, not a "bright" white,
> > but I don't think I'd miss the OBA's.  Experiences?

I also find that this is a superb paper with Epson inks, both the 2200
K2 set and the 2400 K3 set - the matte black is the same ink, as far
as I know.

It is one of the smoothest matte cotton papers, smoother than
Hahnemuhle PR 308, and achieves an excellent density range (D-max of
1.7 for me) with the Epson inks: better than most, and equal to HPR
308. I've just printed a series that has large areas of pure black and
it looks stunning - the black is so smooth, even and deep.  

Apart from one person who prefers Entrada Natural, everybody I print
for chooses UltraSmooth for matte B&W work. This is a bit annoying,
because I have spent ages making sets of profiles for eight other
perfectly good matte papers and nobody wants them. No matter - I find
it difficult to compare papers until I have made a good profile for them.

Best,
Helen

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@...> wrote:

>
> Now that I seem to be getting good metamerism-free BW results on my 
> 2200 based on my tests of QTR, I'm ready to start selecting paper.
> 
> Currently I'm using EEM, but due to its acid content it's not really 
> archival.   I'm looking for a flake-free, archival, matte, heavy paper 
> with contrast at least as good as the EEM.   An added bonus would be if 
> I could buy it locally (New England) so I don't have to buy it on the 
> web.
> 
> Some people have suggested Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, and they are stocked 
> by several dealers within an hour drive of me.  But when I went to 
> their website I found LOTS of products listed as "Photo Rag" and very 
> confusing descriptions.  For example Photo Rag 308 is described as semi-
> gloss and semi-matt IN THE SAME description! 
> 
> Suggestions?
>

Just curious...why is this paper not available in the smaller sheet
sizes such as 8.5x11 or 11x14?
 Thanks
 Ginny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003"
<helenbach@...> wrote:
>
> I also find that this is a superb paper with Epson inks, both the 2200
> K2 set and the 2400 K3 set - the matte black is the same ink, as far
> as I know.
> 
> It is one of the smoothest matte cotton papers, smoother than
> Hahnemuhle PR 308, and achieves an excellent density range (D-max of
> 1.7 for me) with the Epson inks: better than most, and equal to HPR
> 308. I've just printed a series that has large areas of pure black and
> it looks stunning - the black is so smooth, even and deep.  
> 
> Apart from one person who prefers Entrada Natural, everybody I print
> for chooses UltraSmooth for matte B&W work. This is a bit annoying,
> because I have spent ages making sets of profiles for eight other
> perfectly good matte papers and nobody wants them. No matter - I find
> it difficult to compare papers until I have made a good profile for
them.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
> <pnweb@> wrote:
> >
> > Now that I seem to be getting good metamerism-free BW results on my 
> > 2200 based on my tests of QTR, I'm ready to start selecting paper.
> > 
> > Currently I'm using EEM, but due to its acid content it's not really 
> > archival.   I'm looking for a flake-free, archival, matte, heavy
paper 
> > with contrast at least as good as the EEM.   An added bonus would
be if 
> > I could buy it locally (New England) so I don't have to buy it on the 
> > web.
> > 
> > Some people have suggested Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, and they are stocked 
> > by several dealers within an hour drive of me.  But when I went to 
> > their website I found LOTS of products listed as "Photo Rag" and very 
> > confusing descriptions.  For example Photo Rag 308 is described as
semi-

> > gloss and semi-matt IN THE SAME description! 
> > 
> > Suggestions?
> >
>

Peter

Blow The HPR Sheets off with Canned Air or Wipe them down .. That Usually
Helps..

Cheers
Jim Doyle


J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
114 Old Orchard Rd
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
AOL IM: Brokerup99

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Peter
Nelson
  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:47 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Choosing a paper


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benasaj"
  <al.benas@...> wrote:

  > If you don't mind a "natural" color finish, I've been getting some
  > excellent results with Hahnemuhle William Turner.  It's matte,
  slightly
  > textured, retains fine detail quite well, and has, imho, a very
  nice
  > depth.

  I can get the Hahnemuhle paper locally at Hunt's about a 15 minute
  drive from here.   But I'm concerned about the flaking problem.  My
  photos and painting reflect my personality : DARK.  So even a tiny
  bit of coating flaking off will shine like a lighthouse!

  And considering the cost of the ink and sheet of paper for 13X19 inch
  print I don't want to have to re-do a lot prints because of
  flaking.   How bad is the flaking problem and what can I do to
  minimize it?

  Also how bad IS the EEM?   I was looking at some test prints I
  made about 2 years ago when it was called "Archival" that have just
  been sitting in a wire basket, unprotected from anything during that
  time, and I don't see any yellowing yet.






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