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epson velvet fine art paper

epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-10 by dhaaron69

I recently purchased a supply of k3 ink carts for my 2400,
at Comp USA. I noticed they had a supply of epson velvet fine art 
paper. So I purchased 2 packages at $69.00 ea. (13 x 19) because the 
2400 has profiles for this paper. There is nothing wrong with this 
stuff. My negs never looked so good, It has beautiful grays sort of 
like the old defender series type silver paper. In comparison to crane 
museo which was my de-facto standard (can be finicky) I am glad I 
stumbled across fine art velvet.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by Brian Ellis

"With the K3 inks that I use, the VFA is the standout for dmax both
visually and by measurement.  The VFA not only shows a much better
dmax with the K3's than the EEM (roughly 1.79 vs. 1.70. . . "

That's a difference of less than a third of a stop. Does it really look 
"much better?" The difference between the first and second steps in a 21 
step wedge is .15 log units (half a stop) and that difference is  barely 
visible even with the side-by-side comparison of a step wedge. I wouldn't 
have expected a .09 difference to be noticeable at all in a print. I'm not 
arguing with you, if you see a difference of less than a third of a stop as 
"much better"then that's what you see. I'm just surprised that such a small 
measured difference would be so visible.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "wwodets" <odets@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 1:34 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper


Paul-

I use EEM for all my proofing, and VFA and USFA for final prints.
With the K3 inks that I use, the VFA is the standout for dmax both
visually and by measurement.  The VFA not only shows a much better
dmax with the K3's than the EEM (roughly 1.79 vs. 1.70), it has none
of the "mottling" of blacks that plagues the EEM.  On the other hand,
the USFA shows about the same dmax as the EEM, though it, too, is
free of any mottling.

So, both the eye and the spectgrometer suggest that either the EEM
and VFA coatings are not the same or that the substrate signficantly
affects the performance of the coating.  With Eboni, I imagine that
none of my comments are reliable.

Good wishes,
Walt


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Epson says at
> <http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/ProductMediaSpec.jsp?
BV_UseBVCookie=yes&
> infoType=Overview&oid=-9824&category=Paper+%26+Media> , "... Velvet
Fine Art
> Paper. With a base that is 100% cotton rag, buffered and acid free,
this
> paper is coated with our popular Enhanced Matte coating ..."
>
> In my few tests of the paper with Eboni in the printers, I get
essentially
> the same dmax as EEM, with which it shares it apparently shares a
coating.
>
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Carl
> > Schofield
> > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:46 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper
> >
> > My observations and dmax measurements suggest otherwise.  Epson
> > Velvet Fine Art is the matte paper dmax champ with k3 MK inks so
far
> > at 1.75+ and Museo II is way back in the pack with the others at
> > around 1.6+.
> >
> > Carl
> >
> >
> > On Feb 10, 2006, at 8:24 PM, ginnylady33 wrote:
> >
> > >   I recently compared the Velvet Fine Art with Museo II. The
main
> > > difference that I saw was the Museo II had deeper blacks.
> > > Significantly so.
> > >  Best
> > >  Ginny
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dhaaron69"
> > > <dhaimaging@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I recently purchased a supply of k3 ink carts for my 2400,
> > >> at Comp USA. I noticed they had a supply of epson velvet fine
art
> > >> paper. So I purchased 2 packages at $69.00 ea. (13 x 19)
because the
> > >> 2400 has profiles for this paper. There is nothing wrong with
this
> > >> stuff. My negs never looked so good, It has beautiful grays
sort of
> > >> like the old defender series type silver paper. In comparison
to
> > >> crane
> > >> museo which was my de-facto standard (can be finicky) I am
glad I
> > >> stumbled across fine art velvet.
> > >>
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
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wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
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Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by ginnylady33

I recently compared the Velvet Fine Art with Museo II. The main
difference that I saw was the Museo II had deeper blacks.
Significantly so.
 Best
 Ginny


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dhaaron69"
<dhaimaging@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I recently purchased a supply of k3 ink carts for my 2400,
> at Comp USA. I noticed they had a supply of epson velvet fine art 
> paper. So I purchased 2 packages at $69.00 ea. (13 x 19) because the 
> 2400 has profiles for this paper. There is nothing wrong with this 
> stuff. My negs never looked so good, It has beautiful grays sort of 
> like the old defender series type silver paper. In comparison to crane 
> museo which was my de-facto standard (can be finicky) I am glad I 
> stumbled across fine art velvet.
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by Carl Schofield

My observations and dmax measurements suggest otherwise.  Epson  
Velvet Fine Art is the matte paper dmax champ with k3 MK inks so far  
at 1.75+ and Museo II is way back in the pack with the others at  
around 1.6+.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Feb 10, 2006, at 8:24 PM, ginnylady33 wrote:

>   I recently compared the Velvet Fine Art with Museo II. The main
> difference that I saw was the Museo II had deeper blacks.
> Significantly so.
>  Best
>  Ginny
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dhaaron69"
> <dhaimaging@...> wrote:
>>
>> I recently purchased a supply of k3 ink carts for my 2400,
>> at Comp USA. I noticed they had a supply of epson velvet fine art
>> paper. So I purchased 2 packages at $69.00 ea. (13 x 19) because the
>> 2400 has profiles for this paper. There is nothing wrong with this
>> stuff. My negs never looked so good, It has beautiful grays sort of
>> like the old defender series type silver paper. In comparison to  
>> crane
>> museo which was my de-facto standard (can be finicky) I am glad I
>> stumbled across fine art velvet.
>>

[Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by john dean

How tough is that Velvet Fine Art surface? I still want to try it.
Somerset is quite durable, but weak in dmax and gamut.

john


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> My observations and dmax measurements suggest otherwise.  Epson  
> Velvet Fine Art is the matte paper dmax champ with k3 MK inks so far  
> at 1.75+ and Museo II is way back in the pack with the others at  
> around 1.6+.
> 
> Carl
> 
> 
> On Feb 10, 2006, at 8:24 PM, ginnylady33 wrote:
> 
> >   I recently compared the Velvet Fine Art with Museo II. The main
> > difference that I saw was the Museo II had deeper blacks.
> > Significantly so.
> >  Best
> >  Ginny
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dhaaron69"
> > <dhaimaging@> wrote:
> >>
> >> I recently purchased a supply of k3 ink carts for my 2400,
> >> at Comp USA. I noticed they had a supply of epson velvet fine art
> >> paper. So I purchased 2 packages at $69.00 ea. (13 x 19) because the
> >> 2400 has profiles for this paper. There is nothing wrong with this
> >> stuff. My negs never looked so good, It has beautiful grays sort of
> >> like the old defender series type silver paper. In comparison to  
> >> crane
> >> museo which was my de-facto standard (can be finicky) I am glad I
> >> stumbled across fine art velvet.
> >>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by Carl Schofield

Texture is similar to the Somerset, but Velvet needs careful handling  
to prevent scuffing and burnishing.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Feb 10, 2006, at 9:16 PM, john dean wrote:

> How tough is that Velvet Fine Art surface? I still want to try it.
> Somerset is quite durable, but weak in dmax and gamut.
>
> john
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@...> wrote:
>>
>> My observations and dmax measurements suggest otherwise.  Epson
>> Velvet Fine Art is the matte paper dmax champ with k3 MK inks so far
>> at 1.75+ and Museo II is way back in the pack with the others at
>> around 1.6+.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> On Feb 10, 2006, at 8:24 PM, ginnylady33 wrote:
>>
>>>   I recently compared the Velvet Fine Art with Museo II. The main
>>> difference that I saw was the Museo II had deeper blacks.
>>> Significantly so.
>>>  Best
>>>  Ginny
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dhaaron69"
>>> <dhaimaging@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I recently purchased a supply of k3 ink carts for my 2400,
>>>> at Comp USA. I noticed they had a supply of epson velvet fine art
>>>> paper. So I purchased 2 packages at $69.00 ea. (13 x 19) because  
>>>> the
>>>> 2400 has profiles for this paper. There is nothing wrong with this
>>>> stuff. My negs never looked so good, It has beautiful grays sort of
>>>> like the old defender series type silver paper. In comparison to
>>>> crane
>>>> museo which was my de-facto standard (can be finicky) I am glad I
>>>> stumbled across fine art velvet.
>>>>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by Paul Roark

Epson says at
<http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/ProductMediaSpec.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&
infoType=Overview&oid=-9824&category=Paper+%26+Media> , "... Velvet Fine Art
Paper. With a base that is 100% cotton rag, buffered and acid free, this
paper is coated with our popular Enhanced Matte coating ..."

In my few tests of the paper with Eboni in the printers, I get essentially
the same dmax as EEM, with which it shares it apparently shares a coating.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl
> Schofield
> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:46 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper
> 
> My observations and dmax measurements suggest otherwise.  Epson
> Velvet Fine Art is the matte paper dmax champ with k3 MK inks so far
> at 1.75+ and Museo II is way back in the pack with the others at
> around 1.6+.
> 
> Carl
> 
> 
> On Feb 10, 2006, at 8:24 PM, ginnylady33 wrote:
> 
> >   I recently compared the Velvet Fine Art with Museo II. The main
> > difference that I saw was the Museo II had deeper blacks.
> > Significantly so.
> >  Best
> >  Ginny
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dhaaron69"
> > <dhaimaging@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> I recently purchased a supply of k3 ink carts for my 2400,
> >> at Comp USA. I noticed they had a supply of epson velvet fine art
> >> paper. So I purchased 2 packages at $69.00 ea. (13 x 19) because the
> >> 2400 has profiles for this paper. There is nothing wrong with this
> >> stuff. My negs never looked so good, It has beautiful grays sort of
> >> like the old defender series type silver paper. In comparison to
> >> crane
> >> museo which was my de-facto standard (can be finicky) I am glad I
> >> stumbled across fine art velvet.
> >>
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

[Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by wwodets

Paul-

I use EEM for all my proofing, and VFA and USFA for final prints.  
With the K3 inks that I use, the VFA is the standout for dmax both 
visually and by measurement.  The VFA not only shows a much better 
dmax with the K3's than the EEM (roughly 1.79 vs. 1.70), it has none 
of the "mottling" of blacks that plagues the EEM.  On the other hand, 
the USFA shows about the same dmax as the EEM, though it, too, is 
free of any mottling.

So, both the eye and the spectgrometer suggest that either the EEM 
and VFA coatings are not the same or that the substrate signficantly 
affects the performance of the coating.  With Eboni, I imagine that 
none of my comments are reliable.

Good wishes,
Walt


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Epson says at
> <http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/ProductMediaSpec.jsp?
BV_UseBVCookie=yes&
> infoType=Overview&oid=-9824&category=Paper+%26+Media> , "... Velvet 
Fine Art
> Paper. With a base that is 100% cotton rag, buffered and acid free, 
this
> paper is coated with our popular Enhanced Matte coating ..."
> 
> In my few tests of the paper with Eboni in the printers, I get 
essentially
> the same dmax as EEM, with which it shares it apparently shares a 
coating.
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
Of Carl
> > Schofield
> > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:46 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper
> > 
> > My observations and dmax measurements suggest otherwise.  Epson
> > Velvet Fine Art is the matte paper dmax champ with k3 MK inks so 
far
> > at 1.75+ and Museo II is way back in the pack with the others at
> > around 1.6+.
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > 
> > On Feb 10, 2006, at 8:24 PM, ginnylady33 wrote:
> > 
> > >   I recently compared the Velvet Fine Art with Museo II. The 
main
> > > difference that I saw was the Museo II had deeper blacks.
> > > Significantly so.
> > >  Best
> > >  Ginny
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dhaaron69"
> > > <dhaimaging@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I recently purchased a supply of k3 ink carts for my 2400,
> > >> at Comp USA. I noticed they had a supply of epson velvet fine 
art
> > >> paper. So I purchased 2 packages at $69.00 ea. (13 x 19) 
because the
> > >> 2400 has profiles for this paper. There is nothing wrong with 
this
> > >> stuff. My negs never looked so good, It has beautiful grays 
sort of
> > >> like the old defender series type silver paper. In comparison 
to
> > >> crane
> > >> museo which was my de-facto standard (can be finicky) I am 
glad I
> > >> stumbled across fine art velvet.
> > >>
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner
> > and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the 
Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER 
AND
> > MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS 
OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE
> > OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) 
THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
(ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR 
DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by Steve Kale

Eboni does not perform as well as MIS MK on this paper.  It also very
slightly underperforms on EAM/EEM.  Time to start putting the pressure back
on MIS...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:25:16 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper
> 
> 
> 
> Epson says at
> <http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/ProductMediaSpec.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&
> infoType=Overview&oid=-9824&category=Paper+%26+Media> , "... Velvet Fine Art
> Paper. With a base that is 100% cotton rag, buffered and acid free, this
> paper is coated with our popular Enhanced Matte coating ..."
> 
> In my few tests of the paper with Eboni in the printers, I get essentially
> the same dmax as EEM, with which it shares it apparently shares a coating.
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by Paul Roark

On the other hand, Eboni performs better than UC MK on some papers.  And
there are printer-to-printer variances.  We need a large chart to keep track
of all of these variables.

With respect to mottling, I've noticed that the same coatings that perform
well on a cotton substrate sometimes mottle on a wood-based paper substrate.
I'm suspicious the cotton absorbs water better and is helping the coating in
this function.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
> Kale
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 2:56 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper
> 
> Eboni does not perform as well as MIS MK on this paper.  It also very
> slightly underperforms on EAM/EEM.  Time to start putting the pressure
> back
> on MIS...
> 
> 
> > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@verizon.net>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:25:16 -0800
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper
> >
> >
> >
> > Epson says at
> > <http://www.epson.com/cgi-
> bin/Store/ProductMediaSpec.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&
> > infoType=Overview&oid=-9824&category=Paper+%26+Media> , "... Velvet Fine
> Art
> > Paper. With a base that is 100% cotton rag, buffered and acid free, this
> > paper is coated with our popular Enhanced Matte coating ..."
> >
> > In my few tests of the paper with Eboni in the printers, I get
> essentially
> > the same dmax as EEM, with which it shares it apparently shares a
> coating.
> >
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by Steve Kale

Yes.  I find it easier to think in a perceptually uniform scale:  CIELab.
The difference noted below is about 2.5 L* which is quite visually
significant.  But take a look for yourself in PS on a well-profiled monitor.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Brian Ellis <bellis60@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:13:36 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper
> 
> "With the K3 inks that I use, the VFA is the standout for dmax both
> visually and by measurement.  The VFA not only shows a much better
> dmax with the K3's than the EEM (roughly 1.79 vs. 1.70. . . "
> 
> That's a difference of less than a third of a stop. Does it really look
> "much better?" The difference between the first and second steps in a 21
> step wedge is .15 log units (half a stop) and that difference is  barely
> visible even with the side-by-side comparison of a step wedge. I wouldn't
> have expected a .09 difference to be noticeable at all in a print. I'm not
> arguing with you, if you see a difference of less than a third of a stop as
> "much better"then that's what you see. I'm just surprised that such a small
> measured difference would be so visible.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by Paul Roark

> > ... roughly 1.79 vs. 1.70. . . 


> ... Does it really look "much better?" ...

Another variable that is out there is that some of our instruments read
slightly differently.  I've never measured a matte paper above 1.75.  

So, with that in mind, just looking at what my instrument reads (with white
paper under the sample -- another variable), I consider 1.60 as the minimum
dmax I'll accept in a matte paper.  1.65 is very good.  Above this, I don't
see much difference in real photos and normal lighting.  1.7+ is outstanding
and, in side-by-side comparisons under bright lights, one can definitely see
the difference.  In real display, however, I don't think it would make much
difference above a 1.65 matte dmax.  It's the art, not the dmax that matters
once an acceptable level is reached, but we always want and strive for more.

I use UltraSmooth or Premier Art Hot Press (same coating, I believe) even
though on some of my printers they have a dmax of only about 1.63.  The
smoothness of the finish and other factors outweigh the minor dmax weakness.
It's over my 1.6 bottom line, so I'm not too concerned (but I'd love to see
1.7 on it).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by vmixer42

Interesting, I hadn't read that before.  Does VFA have significantly more texture than EEM (or 
the USFA/PA 205-type papers)?  I've always heard that it had excellent dmax, but assumed, 
sine it's a "velvet" paper, that the texture would be intrusive, esp. in smaller prints (I print 
10x6.6 on US letter paper).  Is it smoother than I'm thinking (say, compared to something like 
HPR)?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Epson says at
> <http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/ProductMediaSpec.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&
> infoType=Overview&oid=-9824&category=Paper+%26+Media> , "... Velvet Fine Art
> Paper. With a base that is 100% cotton rag, buffered and acid free, this
> paper is coated with our popular Enhanced Matte coating ..."
> 
> In my few tests of the paper with Eboni in the printers, I get essentially
> the same dmax as EEM, with which it shares it apparently shares a coating.
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-11 by Steve Kale

As part of my play with the Nanochromes I reprinted some HPR images I have
framed done with Epson K3 and Eboni (in lieu of Epson MK).  The Epson/Eboni
prints measured dMax of 1.7 (15.4 L*).  The (best of the) Nanochrome prints
peaked at 2.0 (L* 8.1).  The difference in punch was considerable. The
Nanochrome prints had much more depth, presence and shadow detail.  Of
course, that wouldn't get a bad photo to look better than a good one but
side by side there is no doubt in my mind that there is more to be desired
from matte cotton paper than 1.7D.  And of course that's not to say the
Nanochrome inks are great - they have other issues :-) but I see no reason
why 2+ archival dMax shouldn't be conquerable in the not too distant future.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 08:46:52 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper
> 
> 
> 
>>> ... roughly 1.79 vs. 1.70. . .
> 
> 
>> ... Does it really look "much better?" ...
> 
> Another variable that is out there is that some of our instruments read
> slightly differently.  I've never measured a matte paper above 1.75.
> 
> So, with that in mind, just looking at what my instrument reads (with white
> paper under the sample -- another variable), I consider 1.60 as the minimum
> dmax I'll accept in a matte paper.  1.65 is very good.  Above this, I don't
> see much difference in real photos and normal lighting.  1.7+ is outstanding
> and, in side-by-side comparisons under bright lights, one can definitely see
> the difference.  In real display, however, I don't think it would make much
> difference above a 1.65 matte dmax.  It's the art, not the dmax that matters
> once an acceptable level is reached, but we always want and strive for more.
> 
> I use UltraSmooth or Premier Art Hot Press (same coating, I believe) even
> though on some of my printers they have a dmax of only about 1.63.  The
> smoothness of the finish and other factors outweigh the minor dmax weakness.
> It's over my 1.6 bottom line, so I'm not too concerned (but I'd love to see
> 1.7 on it).
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

[Digital BW] Re: epson velvet fine art paper

2006-02-12 by Clayton Jones

Hello Brian,

>>"With the K3 inks that I use, the VFA is the standout for dmax both
>>visually and by measurement.  The VFA not only shows a much better
>>dmax with the K3's than the EEM (roughly 1.79 vs. 1.70. . . "
 
>That's a difference of less than a third of a stop. Does it really 
>look "much better?" 
>...I'm just surprised that 
>such a small measured difference would be so visible.

I don't have a densitometer so I can't speak to the numbers, but I can
see the difference in side by side prints.  Whether or not that
difference qualifies as "much better", or is worth changing paper or
ink to obtain, is up to the viewer.  The only way you can answer those
questions for yourself is to view some prints.

For me the difference is significant because matte papers are
genenerally lower in dmax to begin with (compared to PK papers), so
every little bit helps.  However, dmax isn't everything.  An image
will sometimes look better on another paper, even though the dmax is
lower, and I'll use that.  So it really boils down to your own
aesthetic judgement.

Regards,
Clayton


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