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state of the art archival b/w digital out put

state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-09 by robertrhite

Hey experts, Im a somewhat informed novice, who is embarking on a digital capture 
photography project which will culminate with what I need  to have be a state of the art 
artistic and archival digital out put...up to circa 30 x 40 "  I have begun to research and 
this site seems to me to be  a great place to get help. I have yet to purchase the camera 
and lenses I will use for the project and need to develop a budget  including edition out 
put and digital dark room needs. Any printer out put knowlege would be very helpful as I 
hope to predict the printing cost via being sold on hopefully top of the line digital b/w 
output.
.I know its alot to ask for a complete respnse to this post but I am hoping some generous 
souls may help me here a bit..Recomended articals or web site suggestions would be 
appriciated. Best Robert

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-09 by Mark Savoia

Robert, not to slam you but....
It's not like you just read some articles and buy some equipment, it  
takes years of experience to do what you want to do. You might want  
to re-think.
Mark


On Mar 9, 2006, at 4:24 PM, robertrhite wrote:

> Hey experts, Im a somewhat informed novice, who is embarking on a  
> digital capture
> photography project which will culminate with what I need  to have  
> be a state of the art
> artistic and archival digital out put...up to circa 30 x 40 "  I  
> have begun to research and
> this site seems to me to be  a great place to get help. I have yet  
> to purchase the camera
> and lenses I will use for the project and need to develop a budget   
> including edition out
> put and digital dark room needs. Any printer out put knowlege would  
> be very helpful as I
> hope to predict the printing cost via being sold on hopefully top  
> of the line digital b/w
> output.
> .I know its alot to ask for a complete respnse to this post but I  
> am hoping some generous
> souls may help me here a bit..Recomended articals or web site  
> suggestions would be
> appriciated. Best Robert



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-09 by Paul Roark

Robert,

> ... Im a somewhat informed novice, who is embarking on a digital
> capture photography project which will culminate with what 
> I need  to have be a state of the art
> artistic and archival digital out put...up to circa 30 x 40 " 

Well, an expensive scan back might be called for to get to that size.  I'm
waiting for an affordable 32 MP for my 22 x 28 B&Ws.

Scanning a good large format negative would be a lot cheaper.  Tech Pan in
medium format can also go to 30 x 40.

> ... digital dark room needs.

Dual core chips, multiple gigabytes of memory, and, of course, Photoshop are
required.

> ... printer out put ...

An Epson 9800 or 9600 with a rip or dedicated B&W pigment inkset would do.


> ... Recommended articles or web site suggestions ...

Read this forum.  It's the best source for B&W digital printing.

I suggest you buy a cheap little R220 and start to learn the field on a
smaller scale to start with.  Going straight to the top might be an
expensive exercise in frustration.  See my notes on the R220 at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/R220_R2_Readme.htm  

You can judge, for example, how many PMs you'll need in the camera by
printing just a small segment of the large image on an 8x10.  Rent the best
medium format digital cameras or the top Canon and see if you're happy with
B&W enlarged that much before spending the big bucks.

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Brian Ellis

"Are you saying it's not possible for a reasonably intelligent person to 
take
the 4-day Black and White Digital Fine Print workshop (K7) at Cone's and
produce gallery quality prints from artist's files in a very short time?"

I haven't taken the Cone course but I did take George deWolfe's one week b&w 
digital printing course at the Palm Beach Photographic Workshops. If Cone's 
is as good as George's you certainly can make very good prints after taking 
that workshop. Whether they're "gallery quality" in a "very short time" 
depends on what you mean by those terms. I don't think you'll be making 
prints ready to be hung in MOMA after taking a four day workshop. OTOH, I 
think you can make very good prints in a short time (maybe a month or two) 
if you go into the workshop with a working knowledge of Photoshop, do some 
study on your own before and after the workshop,  and have done some digital 
printing before the workshop. I think it helps a lot if you were a good 
darkroom printer before moving to digital.

Obviously different people learn at different rates and, more importantly, 
some are simply more talented than others and so will make things better 
faster. But in general I don't think it takes years and years to make very 
good prints digitally, assuming you have the innate ability to do so (and if 
you don't have that innate ability years and years won't help much).
Show quoted textHide quoted text
---- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Moody" <moodymz3@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put



-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of john dean
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 10:06 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

It isn't any easier than anything else. When photography came along
people thought it could make them instant artists; it didn't. When
digital output came along people thought it would make them instantly
creative art printmakers, it won't anymore than the old chemical days.
You have to put in years like he said to be really good, and some
people don't have what it takes even after many years. I know
photographers who still can't see color well after decades of hard
work, while other students see it very quickly. Black and white is
even more difficult.

As for high-end printmaking, most people can't do it anymore than
someone who has the cash on hand to buy a great jazz guitar will make
them a concert quality musician. I can tell you exactly what you need
to buy and what you need to read to be a musican, but that won't
produce the art. You many have it or you may not. There are no
shortcuts no matter what the Epson ads tell you. There is no manual to
tell you how to think visually, only technically.

John






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 3/9/06 4:39:26 PM, mark@... writes:


> Robert, not to slam you but....
> It's not like you just read some articles and buy some equipment, it 
> takes years of experience to do what you want to do. You might want 
> to re-think.
> 

The above comment represents one viewpoint about digital black and white, 
that its a journey, an advanced skill that only the initiated can expect to get 
excellent results from. Thats one of the wonderful things about photography, is 
the lifelong journey that it can entail. The Black and White mode in the 
Epson 7800 printer would represent the other viewpoint: that gallery quality B&W 
can be made from a good image on screen, with the push of a button. Pay for 
this machine, get instant, gallery quality, black and white prints.

There is validity to both views, but to tell someone who is researching 
equipment that it will require years of experience to get acceptable results is to 
beg to be left in the dust as irrelevant. Typesetters reassured me, with a 
straight face, and heartfelt emotion, that desktop publishing was inferior, that 
that their skills would be needed indefinately. Pencil-based draftsmen in 
architecturel firms told me the same about CAD. Film-based photographers assured 
me that their markets would never succumb to digital. Does anyone really want 
to tell me that it will require years of experience and experimentation to get 
a system that will take a good B&W image in screen, and make a large, gallery 
quality, archival print from it? 

We can argue the differences between methods, and tinker to our hearts 
content... but that does not mean that an intelligent "outsider" can't buy a system 
that will make salable, durable prints right off the shelf. One does not 
necessarily need to be an inventor/mechnic/tinkerer to print salable black and 
white digital prints anymore; even if that feels like it undercuts the efforts of 
many of us who "rolled our own" systems over the years.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

CDTobie@... wrote:

>
> Does anyone really want to tell me that it will require years of 
> experience and experimentation to get a system that will take a good 
> B&W image in screen, and make a large, gallery quality, archival print 
> from it?

It depends on how you define "good" and "gallery quality" I think. If 
you are implying that anyone can rip an image onto paper and take it 
their local gallery and get it accepted, then yes, I'll tell you that it 
takes years of experience and experimentation to get to that stage. In 
that, digital printing doesn't differ from darkroom printing in any 
meaningful way.

It's not the quality of the print that makes them say "yes." It's the 
quality of the image.

Now, if you have a gallery quality image, you still have to get a print 
that supports the image. It is not as easy as pushing a button. It does 
take a fair amount of work, no matter what your methodology is. The 
reason is that galleries aren't interested in "good." They are instead 
interested in exceptional. And you aren't going to get there without a 
fair amount of work to understand the process so that you can make it do 
what you want. And in this too, digital printing doesn't differ from 
darkroom printing in any meaningful way.
--
Bruce Watson

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by elwood@wsnconsult.com

Robert

You might want to go to www.luminous-landscape.com and review the new article on state of the art digital cameras. It is a huge investment and means toting significant weight into the field but if you are after the best, this probably defines it, at least for now.

Woody Spedden
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----
From: robertrhite <robertrhite@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2006 2:24:41 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

   
 .I know its alot to ask for a complete respnse to this post but I am hoping some generous 
 souls may help me here a bit..Recomended articals or web site suggestions would be 
 appriciated. Best Robert
 
 
 
 
 
 
      

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
 
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
 
 If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
 
 Please follow these basic guidelines:
 - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
 - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
 - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
 - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
 
 BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
  

              

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by john dean

It isn't any easier than anything else. When photography came along
people thought it could make them instant artists; it didn't. When
digital output came along people thought it would make them instantly
creative art printmakers, it won't anymore than the old chemical days.
You have to put in years like he said to be really good, and some
people don't have what it takes even after many years. I know
photographers who still can't see color well after decades of hard
work, while other students see it very quickly. Black and white is
even more difficult.

As for high-end printmaking, most people can't do it anymore than
someone who has the cash on hand to buy a great jazz guitar will make
them a concert quality musician. I can tell you exactly what you need
to buy and what you need to read to be a musican, but that won't
produce the art. You many have it or you may not. There are no
shortcuts no matter what the Epson ads tell you. There is no manual to
tell you how to think visually, only technically.

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@... wrote:
>
> CDTobie@... wrote:
> 
> >
> > Does anyone really want to tell me that it will require years of 
> > experience and experimentation to get a system that will take a good 
> > B&W image in screen, and make a large, gallery quality, archival
print 
> > from it?
> 
> It depends on how you define "good" and "gallery quality" I think. If 
> you are implying that anyone can rip an image onto paper and take it 
> their local gallery and get it accepted, then yes, I'll tell you
that it 
> takes years of experience and experimentation to get to that stage. In 
> that, digital printing doesn't differ from darkroom printing in any 
> meaningful way.
> 
> It's not the quality of the print that makes them say "yes." It's the 
> quality of the image.
> 
> Now, if you have a gallery quality image, you still have to get a print 
> that supports the image. It is not as easy as pushing a button. It does 
> take a fair amount of work, no matter what your methodology is. The 
> reason is that galleries aren't interested in "good." They are instead 
> interested in exceptional. And you aren't going to get there without a 
> fair amount of work to understand the process so that you can make
it do 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> what you want. And in this too, digital printing doesn't differ from 
> darkroom printing in any meaningful way.
> --
> Bruce Watson
>

RE: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by John Moody

John,
Are you saying it’s not possible for a reasonably intelligent person to take
the 4-day Black and White Digital Fine Print workshop (K7) at Cone’s and
produce gallery quality prints from artist’s files in a very short time?

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of john dean
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 10:06 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

It isn't any easier than anything else. When photography came along
people thought it could make them instant artists; it didn't. When
digital output came along people thought it would make them instantly
creative art printmakers, it won't anymore than the old chemical days.
You have to put in years like he said to be really good, and some
people don't have what it takes even after many years. I know
photographers who still can't see color well after decades of hard
work, while other students see it very quickly. Black and white is
even more difficult.

As for high-end printmaking, most people can't do it anymore than
someone who has the cash on hand to buy a great jazz guitar will make
them a concert quality musician. I can tell you exactly what you need
to buy and what you need to read to be a musican, but that won't
produce the art. You many have it or you may not. There are no
shortcuts no matter what the Epson ads tell you. There is no manual to
tell you how to think visually, only technically.

John






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by bradspix

I think what he's saying, and I totally agree, is that photography is a creative process that 
starts with vision.  Seeing, capturing and being able to express creatively is what it's 
about. - it's not about tools.

It's incredibly easy to make high-quality boring prints.


Brad
Urban pix:  http:www.citysnaps.net


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> John,
> Are you saying it's not possible for a reasonably intelligent person to take
> the 4-day Black and White Digital Fine Print workshop (K7) at Cone's and
> produce gallery quality prints from artist's files in a very short time?
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of john dean
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 10:06 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put
> 
> It isn't any easier than anything else. When photography came along
> people thought it could make them instant artists; it didn't. When
> digital output came along people thought it would make them instantly
> creative art printmakers, it won't anymore than the old chemical days.
> You have to put in years like he said to be really good, and some
> people don't have what it takes even after many years. I know
> photographers who still can't see color well after decades of hard
> work, while other students see it very quickly. Black and white is
> even more difficult.
> 
> As for high-end printmaking, most people can't do it anymore than
> someone who has the cash on hand to buy a great jazz guitar will make
> them a concert quality musician. I can tell you exactly what you need
> to buy and what you need to read to be a musican, but that won't
> produce the art. You many have it or you may not. There are no
> shortcuts no matter what the Epson ads tell you. There is no manual to
> tell you how to think visually, only technically.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

John Moody wrote:

> John,
> Are you saying it\ufffds not possible for a reasonably intelligent person 
> to take
> the 4-day Black and White Digital Fine Print workshop (K7) at Cone\ufffds and
> produce gallery quality prints from artist\ufffds files in a very short time?
>
I've taken the Cone course. It was excellent - the best four day 
workshop I've taken (from say 10 or 12 over the years) on *any* subject. 
Jon is an excellent teacher and his staff is first rate.

But, four days doesn't make you an expert print maker. Jon can teach a 
whole bunch and expose you to lots of tools and techniques, and tell you 
when some of the tools are appropriate. His course cuts a big chunk out 
of the learning curve, but it doesn't, and can't, eliminate it.

There are subtleties involved that you can't understand without doing 
the work and experimenting with different techniques.

You can go into Jon's course knowing nothing and come out a good print 
maker. But to be an excellent print maker you've got to make a lot more 
prints. There is no substitute for experience.
--
Bruce Watson

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Michael Vendrell

I've done wet B&W darkroom and all film formats up to
8 x 10" view camera and for the last coupla' years
I've been doing mostly digital capture, scanning of 6
X 7 cm negs, and ink-jet printing. The later using
Roark's insets in the C86 & R220, BO with the 2200,
and most recently Cone's NK7 in the 2200.  There's no
question in my mind that the last stage of printing
the files onto paper is much easier (and BETTER) in
the light-room than it was in the darkroom -
especially now that Epson, Cone, Harrington, and Roark
have done the complex bits and more or less laid that
portion into our laps. 

That being said, the image processing bit (e.g.
Photo-shop) has become MUCH more demanding in every
way I have experienced save toxic fumes and sore feet.
 Much better too - but the available control is
sometimes overwhelmingly daunting. In addition to
having intimate control over practically everything we
also have "buttons" that do the equivalent of <eject
engine> or <light truck(boot) on fire>.

And in the apples vs oranges department: of course
artistic vision - that old eye-brain thing seams to
exist somewhere vaguely parallel to the space-time
continuum but there is nowhere near a one-to-one
correspondence.  It can certainly be honed - and for
some it takes longer and for others shorter, maybe
some are just born with it, and sadly some will never
get it. That, however, is not what I heard the asker
to be asking.

If you have the vision - the tools are available! Be
prepared to spend much time and energy with the
photo-editing software, however.

My $.02 worth.

Michael Vendrell, MD

--- john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> It isn't any easier than anything else. When
> photography came along
> people thought it could make them instant artists;
> it didn't. When
> digital output came along people thought it would
> make them instantly
> creative art printmakers, it won't anymore than the
> old chemical days.
> You have to put in years like he said to be really
> good, and some
> people don't have what it takes even after many
> years. I know
> photographers who still can't see color well after
> decades of hard
> work, while other students see it very quickly.
> Black and white is
> even more difficult.
> 
> As for high-end printmaking, most people can't do it
> anymore than
> someone who has the cash on hand to buy a great jazz
> guitar will make
> them a concert quality musician. I can tell you
> exactly what you need
> to buy and what you need to read to be a musican,
> but that won't
> produce the art. You many have it or you may not.
> There are no
> shortcuts no matter what the Epson ads tell you.
> There is no manual to
> tell you how to think visually, only technically.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> hogarth@... wrote:
> >
> > CDTobie@... wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > Does anyone really want to tell me that it will
> require years of 
> > > experience and experimentation to get a system
> that will take a good 
> > > B&W image in screen, and make a large, gallery
> quality, archival
> print 
> > > from it?
> > 
> > It depends on how you define "good" and "gallery
> quality" I think. If 
> > you are implying that anyone can rip an image onto
> paper and take it 
> > their local gallery and get it accepted, then yes,
> I'll tell you
> that it 
> > takes years of experience and experimentation to
> get to that stage. In 
> > that, digital printing doesn't differ from
> darkroom printing in any 
> > meaningful way.
> > 
> > It's not the quality of the print that makes them
> say "yes." It's the 
> > quality of the image.
> > 
> > Now, if you have a gallery quality image, you
> still have to get a print 
> > that supports the image. It is not as easy as
> pushing a button. It does 
> > take a fair amount of work, no matter what your
> methodology is. The 
> > reason is that galleries aren't interested in
> "good." They are instead 
> > interested in exceptional. And you aren't going to
> get there without a 
> > fair amount of work to understand the process so
> that you can make
> it do 
> > what you want. And in this too, digital printing
> doesn't differ from 
> > darkroom printing in any meaningful way.
> > --
> > Bruce Watson
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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RE: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by John Moody

And I am in agreement with that as well.  Even in printmaking, one can get a
better result through creativity, hard work, and desire to advance their
art.

My comment was specific to printmaking of other artists files, where
presumably, they don’t want you to be creative, just “print it how it looks”
.  I believe that with studioprint, Cone inks, Epson printers, good
spectros, and availability of expert tutelage, we have a quick path to
gallery level printing now.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of bradspix
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 11:04 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put


I think what he's saying, and I totally agree, is that photography is a
creative process that
starts with vision.  Seeing, capturing and being able to express creatively
is what it's
about. - it's not about tools.

It's incredibly easy to make high-quality boring prints.


Brad
Urban pix:  http:www.citysnaps.net





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by John Moody

Bruce,
You are right.  I was not suggesting 4 days would make anyone a Tyler Boley,
for example.
I believe the tools to _produce_ prints acceptable to a gallery from
_artist's_ files are available now, and that those results are achievable
without years of work.

Thankfully, creativity in printmaking is alive and well, even with the
success of the commercial tools recently available.  Look at what Paul is
doing with UT-3D!  Creative minds will always find new ways to advance the
art and craft.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
hogarth@...
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 11:14 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

John Moody wrote:

> John,
> Are you saying it's not possible for a reasonably intelligent person
> to take
> the 4-day Black and White Digital Fine Print workshop (K7) at Cone's and
> produce gallery quality prints from artist's files in a very short time?
>
I've taken the Cone course. It was excellent - the best four day
workshop I've taken (from say 10 or 12 over the years) on *any* subject.
Jon is an excellent teacher and his staff is first rate.

But, four days doesn't make you an expert print maker. Jon can teach a
whole bunch and expose you to lots of tools and techniques, and tell you
when some of the tools are appropriate. His course cuts a big chunk out
of the learning curve, but it doesn't, and can't, eliminate it.

There are subtleties involved that you can't understand without doing
the work and experimenting with different techniques.

You can go into Jon's course knowing nothing and come out a good print
maker. But to be an excellent print maker you've got to make a lot more
prints. There is no substitute for experience.
--
Bruce Watson

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by vartkes_peltekoglu

I totally concur with Bruce's comments below. I took the course with Jon
Cone about 16 months ago. It is a great start; similar to the analogy of
getting your degree - now the real learning starts. May I also recomment
a equally qualified source of wisdom. George DeWolfe has an excellent
"digital Fine Art print Making" workshop. In addition a book by George
based on his workshop is due out any day!.

Either is a must before you spend any money on a digital darkroom. Your
learning curve will be steeper (i.e. shorter duration) however much
experimentation needed.

Other sources of highly valuable wisdom are the URLs of Paul Roark and
Clayton Jones.


Good luck

Vartkes





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@... wrote:
>
> John Moody wrote:
>
> > John,
> > Are you saying it's not possible for a reasonably intelligent
person
> > to take
> > the 4-day Black and White Digital Fine Print workshop (K7) at
Cone's and
> > produce gallery quality prints from artist's files in a very
short time?
> >
> I've taken the Cone course. It was excellent - the best four day
> workshop I've taken (from say 10 or 12 over the years) on *any*
subject.
> Jon is an excellent teacher and his staff is first rate.
>
> But, four days doesn't make you an expert print maker. Jon can teach a
> whole bunch and expose you to lots of tools and techniques, and tell
you
> when some of the tools are appropriate. His course cuts a big chunk
out
> of the learning curve, but it doesn't, and can't, eliminate it.
>
> There are subtleties involved that you can't understand without doing
> the work and experimenting with different techniques.
>
> You can go into Jon's course knowing nothing and come out a good print
> maker. But to be an excellent print maker you've got to make a lot
more
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> prints. There is no substitute for experience.
> --
> Bruce Watson
>

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Dan Koons

The book appears to be available on Amazon.  Dan
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "vartkes_peltekoglu" <vartkes@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put



I totally concur with Bruce's comments below. I took the course with Jon
Cone about 16 months ago. It is a great start; similar to the analogy of
getting your degree - now the real learning starts. May I also recomment
a equally qualified source of wisdom. George DeWolfe has an excellent
"digital Fine Art print Making" workshop. In addition a book by George
based on his workshop is due out any day!.

Either is a must before you spend any money on a digital darkroom. Your
learning curve will be steeper (i.e. shorter duration) however much
experimentation needed.

Other sources of highly valuable wisdom are the URLs of Paul Roark and
Clayton Jones.


Good luck

Vartkes





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@... wrote:
>
> John Moody wrote:
>
> > John,
> > Are you saying it's not possible for a reasonably intelligent
person
> > to take
> > the 4-day Black and White Digital Fine Print workshop (K7) at
Cone's and
> > produce gallery quality prints from artist's files in a very
short time?
> >
> I've taken the Cone course. It was excellent - the best four day
> workshop I've taken (from say 10 or 12 over the years) on *any*
subject.
> Jon is an excellent teacher and his staff is first rate.
>
> But, four days doesn't make you an expert print maker. Jon can teach a
> whole bunch and expose you to lots of tools and techniques, and tell
you
> when some of the tools are appropriate. His course cuts a big chunk
out
> of the learning curve, but it doesn't, and can't, eliminate it.
>
> There are subtleties involved that you can't understand without doing
> the work and experimenting with different techniques.
>
> You can go into Jon's course knowing nothing and come out a good print
> maker. But to be an excellent print maker you've got to make a lot
more
> prints. There is no substitute for experience.
> --
> Bruce Watson
>








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Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by john dean

> John,
> Are you saying it's not possible for a reasonably intelligent person
to take
> the 4-day Black and White Digital Fine Print workshop (K7) at Cone's and
> produce gallery quality prints from artist's files in a very short time?
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody

-----------

Yes that is exactly what I am saying. Produce "gallery quality"
prints. Well there are a multitude of bad galleries out there that
have all kinds of horrible imagery in them, inkjet and otherwise, and
some people like that work, some don't.

What I am saying is that there is an art to digital printmaking which
is no easier than the art of silk screen printing, Cibachrome
printing, lithography printing, or platinum printing. The better the
technology gets the higher the bar is for the printmaker to
distinguish himself from everyone else. Yes, the technology gets a lot
better, it all depends on what you are used to looking at how far you
need or want to go, and who your clients are. Photo literature has
always been full of marketing of this system or that system or this
new paper or this new film, to make the job easy. That never happens. 

Printing from a perfectly conceived and interpreted file is a huge
luxury that most of us do not have unfortunately. 90% of what people
pay me to do is to interpret their files, or translate them, however
you want to look at, into a specific medium - a specific ink-media
combination with a look suitable to that persons vision and
personality for that particular context. Every image is different and
very rarely is a file "finished" when it is ready to be output. Almost
never in my experience. 

For black and white I find critical curve shapes and level adjustmets
and dodging and burning zones within the area is usually necessary for
the finest result, whether that be from the best drum scan or a sad
noisy digital camera file. That experience is gained not by a 4 day
workshop but by years of looking at and refining images and learning
to "see" things. The negative is the score and the print is the
performance. If we all had the same file to work from we could have
multiple performances, many may be equally valad, many similar, but
rarely would they all be the same. If that were the case I wouln't
want to be involved in this at all. Everything would be a mechanical
rendering of a pre-existing file. Now that would be boring beyond
belief. We could just create a robot do it all. 

John

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Mark Savoia

I guess it's time for me to chime back in on this one. I am the one  
who stated that it takes years of experience to print at that level.  
Well of course we all have our idea of what "that level" is. I print  
for hire, and have for many years. I see all kinds of prints made by  
my customers they supply as "this is how I want you to print it".  
Some a very good, but most are crap. Some of these customers have  
been doing this for some time and some have not. The experience level  
of them seems to make some difference. I can almost always improve on  
what they supply. I am very anal about my printing quality and my  
customers expect that. This is where I get my facts for the statement  
I made. Sorry if I upset the group but I feel I have paid my dues for  
years to get here and I sure hope I could have not learned it all in  
a week at a workshop (I'm joking folks). And no, I do not know it  
all, I learn something everyday, like I hope most of you - that's  
what keeps it interesting. I wish the original poster the best of luck.
Mark

On Mar 10, 2006, at 2:06 PM, john dean wrote:

> > John,
> > Are you saying it's not possible for a reasonably intelligent person
> to take
> > the 4-day Black and White Digital Fine Print workshop (K7) at  
> Cone's and
> > produce gallery quality prints from artist's files in a very  
> short time?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > John Moody
>
> -----------
>
> Yes that is exactly what I am saying. Produce "gallery quality"
> prints. Well there are a multitude of bad galleries out there that
> have all kinds of horrible imagery in them, inkjet and otherwise, and
> some people like that work, some don't.
>
> What I am saying is that there is an art to digital printmaking which
> is no easier than the art of silk screen printing, Cibachrome
> printing, lithography printing, or platinum printing. The better the
> technology gets the higher the bar is for the printmaker to
> distinguish himself from everyone else. Yes, the technology gets a lot
> better, it all depends on what you are used to looking at how far you
> need or want to go, and who your clients are. Photo literature has
> always been full of marketing of this system or that system or this
> new paper or this new film, to make the job easy. That never happens.
>
> Printing from a perfectly conceived and interpreted file is a huge
> luxury that most of us do not have unfortunately. 90% of what people
> pay me to do is to interpret their files, or translate them, however
> you want to look at, into a specific medium - a specific ink-media
> combination with a look suitable to that persons vision and
> personality for that particular context. Every image is different and
> very rarely is a file "finished" when it is ready to be output. Almost
> never in my experience.
>
> For black and white I find critical curve shapes and level adjustmets
> and dodging and burning zones within the area is usually necessary for
> the finest result, whether that be from the best drum scan or a sad
> noisy digital camera file. That experience is gained not by a 4 day
> workshop but by years of looking at and refining images and learning
> to "see" things. The negative is the score and the print is the
> performance. If we all had the same file to work from we could have
> multiple performances, many may be equally valad, many similar, but
> rarely would they all be the same. If that were the case I wouln't
> want to be involved in this at all. Everything would be a mechanical
> rendering of a pre-existing file. Now that would be boring beyond
> belief. We could just create a robot do it all.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
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> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines�  
> in the Files section:
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>
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> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
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> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Frank Vincent

I think there are a couple of questions to be answered here.

First, what equipment is necessary to prevent reasonable hardware 
limitation?  My answer has only come this year, for black and white archival 
digital printing.  Since I hardly ever print bigger than 8 x 10, even when I 
did darkroom work for myself, the choice is easy.  Epson R220 printer, MIS 
carbon inks, and my trusty Finepix 3.2 mp camera.  Download Picasa II for 
free, and there you go!  Whatever appears before your camera can get to a 
black and white print, even without color converting.

Second question.   What skill is necessary to recognize good images that 
pass before your camera?  Here's the part that requires skill, taste, risk, 
luck, experience, fear, and perseverence.  The human application of 
technology is what we seek.  How does the person communicate?  What is the 
message in that simple image?  Did I miss something?

My machinery prints snapshots or compositions equally well.  It's my side of 
the camera that takes so much labor.

Frank Vincent
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >
> > Does anyone really want to tell me that it will require years of
> > experience and experimentation to get a system that will take a good
> > B&W image in screen, and make a large, gallery quality, archival print
> > from it?

RE: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by John Moody

John,
It seems there is generally agreement all around.  Nearly all of the client
files you see require various amounts, and often critical adjustments to
realize the goal of the client, and that is the service they want performed.
You find it is only after significant research and experimentation that one
develops the knowledge of how to compose these adjustments.

If that sums up your point correctly, I understand completely where you were
coming from.
My comment was based on someone who proofs their files with a well sorted
2200/K7, and wishes to have larger, matching prints made by someone with a
K6/K7 large-format setup.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of john dean
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:06 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

> John,
> Are you saying it's not possible for a reasonably intelligent person
to take
> the 4-day Black and White Digital Fine Print workshop (K7) at Cone's and
> produce gallery quality prints from artist's files in a very short time?
>
> Best regards,
> John Moody

-----------

Yes that is exactly what I am saying. Produce "gallery quality"
prints. Well there are a multitude of bad galleries out there that
have all kinds of horrible imagery in them, inkjet and otherwise, and
some people like that work, some don't.

What I am saying is that there is an art to digital printmaking which
is no easier than the art of silk screen printing, Cibachrome
printing, lithography printing, or platinum printing. The better the
technology gets the higher the bar is for the printmaker to
distinguish himself from everyone else. Yes, the technology gets a lot
better, it all depends on what you are used to looking at how far you
need or want to go, and who your clients are. Photo literature has
always been full of marketing of this system or that system or this
new paper or this new film, to make the job easy. That never happens.

Printing from a perfectly conceived and interpreted file is a huge
luxury that most of us do not have unfortunately. 90% of what people
pay me to do is to interpret their files, or translate them, however
you want to look at, into a specific medium - a specific ink-media
combination with a look suitable to that persons vision and
personality for that particular context. Every image is different and
very rarely is a file "finished" when it is ready to be output. Almost
never in my experience.

For black and white I find critical curve shapes and level adjustmets
and dodging and burning zones within the area is usually necessary for
the finest result, whether that be from the best drum scan or a sad
noisy digital camera file. That experience is gained not by a 4 day
workshop but by years of looking at and refining images and learning
to "see" things. The negative is the score and the print is the
performance. If we all had the same file to work from we could have
multiple performances, many may be equally valad, many similar, but
rarely would they all be the same. If that were the case I wouln't
want to be involved in this at all. Everything would be a mechanical
rendering of a pre-existing file. Now that would be boring beyond
belief. We could just create a robot do it all.

John




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by lulalake_1999

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Vincent" 
<hollidaypr@...> wrote:
>
> I think there are a couple of questions to be answered here.
> 
> First, what equipment is necessary to prevent reasonable hardware 
> limitation?  My answer has only come this year, for black and white 
archival 
> digital printing.  Since I hardly ever print bigger than 8 x 10, 
even when I 
> did darkroom work for myself, the choice is easy.  Epson R220 
printer, MIS 
> carbon inks, and my trusty Finepix 3.2 mp camera.  Download Picasa 
II for 
> free, and there you go!  Whatever appears before your camera can 
get to a 
> black and white print, even without color converting.
> 
> Second question.   What skill is necessary to recognize good images 
that 
> pass before your camera?  Here's the part that requires skill, 
taste, risk, 
> luck, experience, fear, and perseverence.  The human application of 
> technology is what we seek.  How does the person communicate?  What 
is the 
> message in that simple image?  Did I miss something?


Yes Frank, only one thing,. . . . time. It's a slow cooking kind of 
thing. Other than that, right on, right on.

Jules


> 
> My machinery prints snapshots or compositions equally well.  It's 
my side of 
> the camera that takes so much labor.
> 
> Frank Vincent
> 
> 
> > >
> > > Does anyone really want to tell me that it will require years of
> > > experience and experimentation to get a system that will take a 
good
> > > B&W image in screen, and make a large, gallery quality, 
archival print
> > > from it?
>

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Steve Kale

Printing is relatively easy.  It's a craft and requires knowledge and skill
but that should not take years to learn given the right tutelage, focus and
experimentation with different workflows, inks and media to identify that
which suits your artistic tastes.  More like months.  Taking good photos and
applying the whole chain of skill to get from picking up a camera to an
image ready for printing is another matter.  In the overall process of
getting a final image to paper, printing is probably the easiest component,
especially with today's hardware and software.   The efforts of Epson, Roy
Harrington, Paul Roark et al have made workflows easy to grasp and deploy.
Capturing and editing a great image is the hard part.

;-)

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
>
> ...In the overall process of
> getting a final image to paper, printing is probably the easiest component,
> especially with today's hardware and software.   The efforts of Epson, Roy
> Harrington, Paul Roark et al have made workflows easy to grasp and deploy...

oh yeah, Epson's just been extremely supportive...
back to fixing the plumbing.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Steve Kale

They're certainly making things a lot easier than it was yesterday.  Like it
or not, and despite the fact that we will always want a lot more, they've
delivered a considerable amount so far.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>


> 
> oh yeah, Epson's just been extremely supportive...
> back to fixing the plumbing.
> Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Tyler Boley

you have an extremely short view of this history, so I'll let it go...
T

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> They're certainly making things a lot easier than it was yesterday.  Like it
> or not, and despite the fact that we will always want a lot more, they've
> delivered a considerable amount so far.
> 
> 
> > From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> 
> 
> > 
> > oh yeah, Epson's just been extremely supportive...
> > back to fixing the plumbing.
> > Tyler
>

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> 
wrote:
>
> Tyler,
> 
> All you really need is Nanotechnology. Then anyone can be a master
> printmaker. I hear Epson is working on it..
>

It's like punk, since anyone can do it, it's hella cool!!!
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-10 by Tom Baker

Tyler  -
   
  Maybe Epson can help you with your plumbing.  Give support a call.
   
  Tom Baker
  

Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> 
wrote:
>
> Tyler,
> 
> All you really need is Nanotechnology. Then anyone can be a master
> printmaker. I hear Epson is working on it..
>

It's like punk, since anyone can do it, it's hella cool!!!
Tyler






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
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Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-11 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> 
wrote:
>
> Tyler  -
>    
>   Maybe Epson can help you with your plumbing.  Give support a call.

There you go, and me of all people, they would be thrilled to help.

But hopefully more to the point, after being nothing but smarmy here today...

Good printing is hard to quantify because different people see it differently. A print with 
no technical problem, everything pretty much in it's place, and by most standards "good" 
can still be dead, therefore to me, not good. To someone else, beautiful, and who am I to 
insist their experience of something "beautiful" is false or somehow lacking.
It's very difficult, like telling someone the music they love sucks... and it may, actually.

Seeing great work, not in reproduction but it the flesh, and access to people either as 
teachers, mentors, or workshop faculty, is priceless. I find too many people don't even 
know where the high bar is, they've never seen it, only read about it. So they don't know 
what to shoot for, personally.
One of my mentors told me in my young crazy years to settle down stop freaking, because 
the output from my first ten years will turn out to be crap, but those first ten years are 
essential to get to the point of not doing crap. 
But it's too deflating to suggest to someone in their first decade that their output is crap. 
There's no way I bought that, and I treasured it all. Now, it's all been thrown away.

I think adequate printing without major mistakes is hard to learn, in digital. It could well 
be several workshops, or much Photoshop, color management, etc. studying and 
experience. But not years, if one is motivated. I think the darkroom was quicker to get the 
basics down.
Truly becoming atuned to the possibilies of the materials, feeling your way toward making 
an image come alive, and all that tech skill just instinctual and expected, not conscious...
Some people seem to just have a feel for it, but for most it does seem to take years, and is 
a never ending process. That's why it can be such a rewarding endevour, like music, there 
is always more to master, keeping you engaged indefinitely.
One hopes, anyway...
Tyler

RE: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-11 by Eric Neilsen Photography

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

 

The wind is a blown'

 

I read at least 10 of the responses and while there is some good advice, NOT
much in the way of a question as to what you DO know?   It could very well
be the Robert knows all to well the wet darkroom, visual side of the
problem. Before I go off and tell some one that it takes years and blah blah
blah, I try and find out a bit more about them. Not go off on what I think
he needs to start. 

 

Robert??? Can you come in with a little back ground? 

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 <http://ericneilsenphotography.com> http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
robertrhite
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 3:25 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

 

Hey experts, Im a somewhat informed novice, who is embarking on a digital
capture 
photography project which will culminate with what I need  to have be a
state of the art 
artistic and archival digital out put...up to circa 30 x 40 "  I have begun
to research and 
this site seems to me to be  a great place to get help. I have yet to
purchase the camera 
and lenses I will use for the project and need to develop a budget
including edition out 
put and digital dark room needs. Any printer out put knowlege would be very
helpful as I 
hope to predict the printing cost via being sold on hopefully top of the
line digital b/w 
output.
.I know its alot to ask for a complete respnse to this post but I am hoping
some generous 
souls may help me here a bit..Recomended articals or web site suggestions
would be 
appriciated. Best Robert








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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
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POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
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Digital
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edding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+colle
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Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-11 by Steve Kale

Easier than yesterday requires a 2 day history
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 23:09:32 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put
> 
> you have an extremely short view of this history, so I'll let it go...
> T
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@...> wrote:
>> 
>> They're certainly making things a lot easier than it was yesterday.  Like it
>> or not, and despite the fact that we will always want a lot more, they've
>> delivered a considerable amount so far.

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-11 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen Photography" 
<eric@...> wrote:
>
> WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
> 
>  
> 
> The wind is a blown'

Well, no one is better at making wind than this group here, and we're proud of it thanks.

My main point was that the "state of the art" is a perception based on all kinds of things, 
including experience.
People need to actually see this stuff to make those determinations. I honestly don't know 
how to answer.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-11 by djon43

What Mark Savoia said is entirely reasonable. 

I've seen a tremendous amount of genuinely professional, traditional 
B&W and color printing over the years: I've rarely seen work from the
best of "artists" that rivaled the routine work of good custom labs
(I'm not referring to "prosumer" labs or to wedding/portrait labs). 

In color, "artists" (except for the few who do silver masking) have 
virtually always displayed bad Ciba. They used Ciba because its
abbreviated tonal scale forgave bad color balance, allowing 
"acceptable" prints to be made cheaply by unskilled printers.  

In the Albuquerque Museum I've recently seen wonderfully well-done
color inkjet prints by Patrick Carr, who prints for artists and
photographers in New Mexico. 

http://www.patrickcarrimaging.com/fine-art-printing.html 

I'm an OK color printer (Ektacolor, Inkjet.. even Ciba for a while)
but Patrick Carr's so much better that if my own miserable photography
warrented an important exhibition, I'd plead for him to do the prints. 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Some of these customers have  
> been doing this for some time and some have not. The experience level  
> of them seems to make some difference. I can almost always improve on  
> what they supply. I am very anal about my printing quality and my  
> customers expect that. This is where I get my facts for the statement  
> I made. Sorry if I upset the group but I feel I have paid my dues for  
> years to get here

RE: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

2006-03-13 by Eric Neilsen Photography

Tyler, Yes, this group does seem quite proud and for the most part, that is
a good thing. I just quickly scanned the first ten responses and while some
were on Robert's topic, much went off in directions more advanced
users/printer would appreciate.  However, Robert simply said he was a
novice; not in photography or printing but just a novice. The History of
Inkjet that was recently kicked around on perhaps three or more forums would
give him a good place to get some background on the topic of INKJET/B&W
printing. There are certainly camps set up for each group of out put
workflows; QTR, Qimage, Image Print, Nikon, blah blah blah. The quality of
Inkjet prints has certainly gone up over the last few years so to say with
any of the modern Epson Printers, X800 series, and a reasonable capture
device, Canon 1,2,or 5 D, Nikon 200, one should be able to make pretty darn
nice prints quickly. 

 

Any complicated tool will take time to learn, and these are complicated
tools with very easy interface to quickly get going. The additional tools
such as profiling packages are really getting much more accessible to the
end users. The shake down of fact from personal in campments will take some
time. One just needs to look at ink sets to get an idea of the personal
quality of the colors and lack there of, to see that many printers disagree
as to what is best. 

 

Way out side the hardware cost is just the time to learn it all. So Robert,
the best solution for you might be to get the front end, camera, lens,
software and out source the rest. Invest in plane tickets and go visit the
labs that make the "best" prints for you and concentrate on that.  But hey,
without input from Robert, it is hard to move forward with more solid
advice.

 

Any one can search vendors for best price, etc.  It is hard to Google for
best relationship you can build with a vendor whether that is a print vendor
or a complete package set up, camera, printer, profiling software, etc. 

 

 

 My 2 cents

Good luck Robert

Eric Neilsen 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 <http://ericneilsenphotography.com> http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:19 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] state of the art archival b/w digital out put

 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen
Photography" 
<eric@...> wrote:
>
> WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
> 
>  
> 
> The wind is a blown'

Well, no one is better at making wind than this group here, and we're proud
of it thanks.

My main point was that the "state of the art" is a perception based on all
kinds of things, 
including experience.
People need to actually see this stuff to make those determinations. I
honestly don't know 
how to answer.
Tyler





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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.





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