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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Brian Ellis

At some of his workshops John Sexton shows a copy of the Moonrise negative 
and a straight print from it. The amazing thing to me is that Adams could 
envision a great print from that negative. I would have made one straight 
proof, thrown it in the trash can, and never bothered to print the negative 
again, a straight print looks nothing like any of the "final" versions.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Price" <clay@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 9:11 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question


Greetings,
About 4 years ago I saw three original prints of "Moonrise" in a New
York gallery. They were fascinating, and it gave
a real insight into how Adam's worked in the darkroom.  The first
print was straight from the negative - as I recall the
the sky was almost white, and few of the details related to the
values of the final piece.  The second print was somewhat
corrected, but still a long way from what we usually see.  The third
print was  what we've come to expect  --perfect !

When I was a student, much longer ago than I want to think about, we
learned and worked with Zone System, in the belief
that if one follows it carefully, you could make a straight print
from a negative with minimal dodging and burning.

Well, seeing those three prints, 2 of which were in process, the Zone
System bubble burst within me, and I realized
Adam's fantastic darkroom skills, just as Weston, and Gene Smith, who
I don't think worked in Zone System - at least
not formally!

Clayton Price




> Clayton Jones wrote:
> Hello Ken,
> I remember reading somewhere years ago how many Moonrises AA printed,
> but have forgotten what it was.  Does anyone know?
>
> Here is a quote from the After Image Gallery web site:
>
> "The much more common 16 x 20 inch Moonrise prints are now valued at
> around $50,000.00. Last October, Christies estimated the value of one
> at auction to be $50,000.00 to $70,000.00. ...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Brian Ellis

"He couldn't find a light meter, so he guessed. "

Well if you consider knowing the luminance of the moon in candle feet off 
the top of your head,  also knowing off the top of your head that you can 
take the square root of the film speed and convert it to an exposure by 
using the reciprocal of the luminance expressed in candle feet, doing that 
calculation in your head and applying that knowledge to determine that the 
luminance of the moon fell on Zone VII, then from that calculating the Zone 
V luminance and the resulting exposure, and finally applying  a 3x filter 
factor to that calculated exposure to arrive at a final exposure of 1 second 
at f32, all while frantically setting up an 8x10 camera to make a photograph 
while the light was disappearing, to be "guessing," I guess you could say he 
guessed. : - )
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hogarth@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question


Of all of Ansel's images, this is without doubt the worst to use to
judge the Zone System by.

Ansel's ideas for the zone system were to visualize what you wanted in
the final print, carefully consider what you had to have in the negative
to get that, then methodically go about exposing and developing the
negative to get the necessary tones on the negative.

Moonrise was the antithesis of how he used the Zone System. Ansel's own
account was that Moonrise was a "grab shot." He didn't have time to
visualize anything except sliding his vehicle to a stop and running like
mad. He couldn't find a light meter, so he guessed. He flipped the film
holder to try to make another exposure, but the light was gone.

By all accounts, he hated the negative. It represented everything he was
working to correct with the Zone System. That he could get a good print
at all from it is amazing. That he could pull his amazing Moonrise
prints is nearly miraculous and certainly a testament to his skills.

But of all his images, this is the last one to use to judge the Zone System.
--
Bruce Watson


Clayton Price wrote:

> Greetings,
> About 4 years ago I saw three original prints of "Moonrise" in a New
> York gallery. They were fascinating, and it gave
> a real insight into how Adam's worked in the darkroom.  The first
> print was straight from the negative - as I recall the
> the sky was almost white, and few of the details related to the
> values of the final piece.  The second print was somewhat
> corrected, but still a long way from what we usually see.  The third
> print was  what we've come to expect  --perfect !
>
> When I was a student, much longer ago than I want to think about, we
> learned and worked with Zone System, in the belief
> that if one follows it carefully, you could make a straight print
> from a negative with minimal dodging and burning.
>
> Well, seeing those three prints, 2 of which were in process, the Zone
> System bubble burst within me, and I realized
> Adam's fantastic darkroom skills, just as Weston, and Gene Smith, who
> I don't think worked in Zone System - at least
> not formally!
>
> Clayton Price




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Walt Mucha

I couldn't agree more. Moonrise is a good example of post visualation that most of us experience occasionally. We are so moved by a scene when we make the image that we go to great lengths to print it in a way to re-capture that emotion. Ansel chemicaly treated parts of the neg with Farmers reducer to help with the process. As an aside, Ansel was not the originator of the zone system. That honor belongs to Fred Archer, a fellow teacher. Ansel colaborated with Archer and later went on to refine Archers ideas of exposure and development to achieve a pre-visualised print. Ansels original exposure of the moonrise neg was made based on the correct exposure for a full moon, which he remembered, and not any zone system calculation. With todays digital methods, which Ansel would have embraced with much enthusiasm, that neg would be a piece of cake to print and Ansel would have refined it further. He was never satisfied with the crosses in the grave yard. 

Walt
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Of all of Ansel's images, this is without doubt the worst to use to 
>judge the Zone System by.
>
>Ansel's ideas for the zone system were to visualize what you wanted in 
>the final print, carefully consider what you had to have in the negative 
>to get that, then methodically go about exposing and developing the 
>negative to get the necessary tones on the negative.
>
>Moonrise was the antithesis of how he used the Zone System. Ansel's own 
>account was that Moonrise was a "grab shot." He didn't have time to 
>visualize anything except sliding his vehicle to a stop and running like 
>mad. He couldn't find a light meter, so he guessed. He flipped the film 
>holder to try to make another exposure, but the light was gone.
>
>By all accounts, he hated the negative. It represented everything he was 
>working to correct with the Zone System. That he could get a good print 
>at all from it is amazing. That he could pull his amazing Moonrise 
>prints is nearly miraculous and certainly a testament to his skills.
>
>But of all his images, this is the last one to use to judge the Zone System.
>--
>Bruce Watson
>
>
>Clayton Price wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>> About 4 years ago I saw three original prints of "Moonrise" in a New 
>> York gallery. They were fascinating, and it gave
>> a real insight into how Adam's worked in the darkroom.  The first 
>> print was straight from the negative - as I recall the
>> the sky was almost white, and few of the details related to the 
>> values of the final piece.  The second print was somewhat
>> corrected, but still a long way from what we usually see.  The third 
>> print was  what we've come to expect  --perfect !
>>
>> When I was a student, much longer ago than I want to think about, we 
>> learned and worked with Zone System, in the belief
>> that if one follows it carefully, you could make a straight print 
>> from a negative with minimal dodging and burning.
>>
>> Well, seeing those three prints, 2 of which were in process, the Zone 
>> System bubble burst within me, and I realized
>> Adam's fantastic darkroom skills, just as Weston, and Gene Smith, who 
>> I don't think worked in Zone System - at least
>> not formally!
>>
>> Clayton Price
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

I didn't say he wasn't prepared. And Ansel said in his own accounts that 
he couldn't find a meter quickly enough, so he made a guess based on his 
experience:

 From his book "Examples, The Making of 40 Photographs" where he talks 
about making this photograph, he says "I was at a loss with the subject 
luminance values, and I confess I was thinking of bracketing several 
exposures..." and "The white crosses were on the edge of sunlight and 
reasonably "safe"; the shaded foreground was of very low value. Had I 
known how low it was I would have given at least 50 percent more 
exposure..."

He guessed. And made a pretty darn good guess, due to his huge amount of 
experience.

Hey look - I'm a big Ansel fan. Don't think I'm putting him down; 
nothing could be farther from the truth. But Ansel said that this image 
wasn't made using the deliberate approach he himself advocated and 
taught. This to my mind makes it a poor image with which to judge the 
Zone System. And that's the point I was trying to make.
--
Bruce Watson


Brian Ellis wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> "He couldn't find a light meter, so he guessed. "
>
> Well if you consider knowing the luminance of the moon in candle feet off
> the top of your head,  also knowing off the top of your head that you can
> take the square root of the film speed and convert it to an exposure by
> using the reciprocal of the luminance expressed in candle feet, doing 
> that
> calculation in your head and applying that knowledge to determine that 
> the
> luminance of the moon fell on Zone VII, then from that calculating the 
> Zone
> V luminance and the resulting exposure, and finally applying  a 3x filter
> factor to that calculated exposure to arrive at a final exposure of 1 
> second
> at f32, all while frantically setting up an 8x10 camera to make a 
> photograph
> while the light was disappearing, to be "guessing," I guess you could 
> say he
> guessed. : - )

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Ken Carney

I remember John (I think it was John) saying that AA would keep Moonrise
rejects.  When some student came by to show him prints, he would look at the
student print, go get a Moonrise, look at it and rip it up, saying he would
never print again.  John also shows a Moonrise with two moons (waaaay before
Photoshop).
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian
> Ellis
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 6:00 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question
> 
> At some of his workshops John Sexton shows a copy of the Moonrise negative
> and a straight print from it. The amazing thing to me is that Adams could
> envision a great print from that negative. I would have made one straight
> proof, thrown it in the trash can, and never bothered to print the
> negative
> again, a straight print looks nothing like any of the "final" versions.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clayton Price" <clay@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 9:11 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Brian Ellis

From his book "Examples, The Making of 40 Photographs" where he talks
about making this photograph, he says "I was at a loss with the subject
luminance values, and I confess I was thinking of bracketing several
exposures..."

You've left out everything in "Examples" that follows the word "exposures," 
which is his description of the elaborate procedure he went through to 
arrive at the exposure and which I summarized in my previous message.  But 
relax, I stuck a smiley face at the end of my description, I don't think 
there's much point in arguing over the meaning of the word "guess." Why 
don't we call it an educated guess and let it go at that?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hogarth@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question


I didn't say he wasn't prepared. And Ansel said in his own accounts that
he couldn't find a meter quickly enough, so he made a guess based on his
experience:

 From his book "Examples, The Making of 40 Photographs" where he talks
about making this photograph, he says "I was at a loss with the subject
luminance values, and I confess I was thinking of bracketing several
exposures..." and "The white crosses were on the edge of sunlight and
reasonably "safe"; the shaded foreground was of very low value. Had I
known how low it was I would have given at least 50 percent more
exposure..."

He guessed. And made a pretty darn good guess, due to his huge amount of
experience.

Hey look - I'm a big Ansel fan. Don't think I'm putting him down;
nothing could be farther from the truth. But Ansel said that this image
wasn't made using the deliberate approach he himself advocated and
taught. This to my mind makes it a poor image with which to judge the
Zone System. And that's the point I was trying to make.
--
Bruce Watson


Brian Ellis wrote:

> "He couldn't find a light meter, so he guessed. "
>
> Well if you consider knowing the luminance of the moon in candle feet off
> the top of your head,  also knowing off the top of your head that you can
> take the square root of the film speed and convert it to an exposure by
> using the reciprocal of the luminance expressed in candle feet, doing
> that
> calculation in your head and applying that knowledge to determine that
> the
> luminance of the moon fell on Zone VII, then from that calculating the
> Zone
> V luminance and the resulting exposure, and finally applying  a 3x filter
> factor to that calculated exposure to arrive at a final exposure of 1
> second
> at f32, all while frantically setting up an 8x10 camera to make a
> photograph
> while the light was disappearing, to be "guessing," I guess you could
> say he
> guessed. : - )

















Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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Something wrong with new batch FS/FSN?

2006-06-03 by John Custodio

Epson 4000, FSN C, M, Y on the left side, FS C, M, Y
on the right side (in the LC, LM, LK positions), Eboni
Black. Using QTR. Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308.

QTR ink separation page printed at 100%.
Eye One spectro. 
100% densities read:

Eboni 1.71
FSN-C 1.24 Lab a=-0.5 b=-0.2
FSN-M  .53 Lab a=0.3 b=-6.7
FSN-Y  .36 Lab a=0.2 b=-4.4
FS-C  1.31
FS-M   .49
FS-Y   .36

I've used FSN and FS on this machine before with no
problem. What seems wrong is:

The FSN-M and Y seem too blue (note high negative b
numbers) while the FSN-C is close to neutral.

The dark grays for both FSN and FS should be darker
(density around 1.5?). Also for both FSN and FS it
seems there should be more of a density difference
between the light grays and middle grays (M and Y).

I used to know the 100% densities on HPR of Piezotone
Selenium inks when I used to had them in my printer,
but that was a long time ago and I don't have those
test targets anymore.

What should these numbers be and what about the blue
FSN? I'm suspecting I got bottles with the wrong ink.
(The bottles are labeled FSN-C, FSN-M, etc.). I will
be contacting MIS on Monday.

-John

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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RE: [Digital BW] Something wrong with new batch FS/FSN?

2006-06-03 by Paul Roark

I don't have benchmark densities for the FSN inks.  However, errors do
sometimes occur, so I'd contact MIS.  Your speculation of a 1.5 for the FS-C
density is very high.  1.24 - 1.3 is closer to what I'd expect.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
> Custodio
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:33 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Something wrong with new batch FS/FSN?
> 
> 
> Epson 4000, FSN C, M, Y on the left side, FS C, M, Y
> on the right side (in the LC, LM, LK positions), Eboni
> Black. Using QTR. Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308.
> 
> QTR ink separation page printed at 100%.
> Eye One spectro.
> 100% densities read:
> 
> Eboni 1.71
> FSN-C 1.24 Lab a=-0.5 b=-0.2
> FSN-M  .53 Lab a=0.3 b=-6.7
> FSN-Y  .36 Lab a=0.2 b=-4.4
> FS-C  1.31
> FS-M   .49
> FS-Y   .36
> 
> I've used FSN and FS on this machine before with no
> problem. What seems wrong is:
> 
> The FSN-M and Y seem too blue (note high negative b
> numbers) while the FSN-C is close to neutral.
> 
> The dark grays for both FSN and FS should be darker
> (density around 1.5?). Also for both FSN and FS it
> seems there should be more of a density difference
> between the light grays and middle grays (M and Y).
> 
> I used to know the 100% densities on HPR of Piezotone
> Selenium inks when I used to had them in my printer,
> but that was a long time ago and I don't have those
> test targets anymore.
> 
> What should these numbers be and what about the blue
> FSN? I'm suspecting I got bottles with the wrong ink.
> (The bottles are labeled FSN-C, FSN-M, etc.). I will
> be contacting MIS on Monday.
> 
> -John
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: Something wrong with new batch FS/FSN?

2006-06-03 by dlruckus

I have recent #s from the UTFS setup with Premier Premium matt and
Epson DS matt.

               For PPDSM they are: K=1.71 d'log, 
                                   C=1.43
                                   M=0.70
                                   Y=0.56

               For EPDSM they are: K=1.66
                                   C=1.39
                                   M=0.71
                                   Y=0.56

These are for the same QTR conditions but using a 3000. I would think
that aside from slight differences due to larger dot size on the 3000
the densities should be similar across printers. I haven't set up for
the UTFSN as yet.

Hope this is helpful.

Regards
Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John Custodio
<custodiojohn@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> Epson 4000, FSN C, M, Y on the left side, FS C, M, Y
> on the right side (in the LC, LM, LK positions), Eboni
> Black. Using QTR. Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308.
> 
> QTR ink separation page printed at 100%.
> Eye One spectro. 
> 100% densities read:
> 
> Eboni 1.71
> FSN-C 1.24 Lab a=-0.5 b=-0.2
> FSN-M  .53 Lab a=0.3 b=-6.7
> FSN-Y  .36 Lab a=0.2 b=-4.4
> FS-C  1.31
> FS-M   .49
> FS-Y   .36
> 
> I've used FSN and FS on this machine before with no
> problem. What seems wrong is:
> 
> The FSN-M and Y seem too blue (note high negative b
> numbers) while the FSN-C is close to neutral.
> 
> The dark grays for both FSN and FS should be darker
> (density around 1.5?). Also for both FSN and FS it
> seems there should be more of a density difference
> between the light grays and middle grays (M and Y).
> 
> I used to know the 100% densities on HPR of Piezotone
> Selenium inks when I used to had them in my printer,
> but that was a long time ago and I don't have those
> test targets anymore.
> 
> What should these numbers be and what about the blue
> FSN? I'm suspecting I got bottles with the wrong ink.
> (The bottles are labeled FSN-C, FSN-M, etc.). I will
> be contacting MIS on Monday.
> 
> -John
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

Brian Ellis wrote:

> Why don't we call it an educated guess and let it go at that?
>
>
Absolutely. No one was more educated than Ansel. No one's educated guess 
would carry more weight than his.
--
Bruce Watson

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-03 by Phil Morse

This is probably OT in this discussion  ;-)  but in most of AA's 'Aspens' 
images the tree trunks appear to be illuminated from both sides but not the 
front.  Explaination please?  This has always bothered me.

Phil Morse
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hogarth@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question


Brian Ellis wrote:

> Why don't we call it an educated guess and let it go at that?
>
>
Absolutely. No one was more educated than Ansel. No one's educated guess
would carry more weight than his.
--
Bruce Watson



























Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-04 by Bruce

One of the AA "Aspen" prints that I saw appeared to be heavily
"ferricyanided"  (i.e. chemically bleached).  I don't know if it was by AA
print or by an assistant.  High quality duotone litho prints of this same
picture looked better to me than the silver-gelatin print because the
printing process moderated the bleaching artifacts.  Bleaching can really
make or break some prints, but you are always on the razors edge of make or
break.    IMHO Bruce Barnbaum is a master of the technique.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Morse" <pmorse@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question


This is probably OT in this discussion  ;-)  but in most of AA's 'Aspens'
images the tree trunks appear to be illuminated from both sides but not the
front.  Explaination please?  This has always bothered me.

Phil Morse

[Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-04 by sinar001

Unless you have seen aspen trees back lit in person, it is hard to
appreciate the "illuminated from both sides look". 

I know that AA used all kinds of darkroom magic to make his prints.
I've also heard that he complained about Moon Rise being a "bitch" to
print.

Ansel would love digital and especially Epson printers! Maybe he is
looking down upon us with great jealosy?

John Nollendorfs

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce"
<brosin1@...> wrote:
>
> One of the AA "Aspen" prints that I saw appeared to be heavily
> "ferricyanided"  (i.e. chemically bleached).  I don't know if it was
by AA
> print or by an assistant.  High quality duotone litho prints of this
same
> picture looked better to me than the silver-gelatin print because the
> printing process moderated the bleaching artifacts.  Bleaching can
really
> make or break some prints, but you are always on the razors edge of
make or
> break.    IMHO Bruce Barnbaum is a master of the technique.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Phil Morse" <pmorse@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question
> 
> 
> This is probably OT in this discussion  ;-)  but in most of AA's
'Aspens'
> images the tree trunks appear to be illuminated from both sides but
not the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> front.  Explaination please?  This has always bothered me.
> 
> Phil Morse
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Moonrise - was Signing prints question

2006-06-04 by jim kitchen

Dear Phil and Group,

Bruce Barnbaum is an exceptional image maker and image taker...

I have the pleasure of knowing Bruce for many years, and the person that
introduced Bruce to this technique of using ferricyanide, was Jay Dussard.
Bruce is extremely passionate about this technique, since Jay showed Bruce
how the procedure was done.

Jay would periodically use this chemical to enhance the ³buttons² on his
Cowboy shirts, present in his images.

If anyone has ever tried this technique, it is quite marvellous, but
extremely, 
extremely reactive.  Practice. practice, and practice again, using lots of
H2O 
from the end of a small nozzle hose allowing for a focused pour of H2O on
the subject area, and the use of a fine, fine brush, is essential. :)

Bruce introduced me to this technique, more the 20 years ago, and I have
not for gotten the moment I called him ³Captain Ferricyanide,² during a
darkroom workshop.  He has not forgotten that moment as well...

Bruce will probably disown me, but Photoshop and the use of specific layers,
is probably less harmful to the environment.

That said, I do not know if Ansel was privy to this technique or the author
of this technique, but achieving a pre-visualized image from an image that
possibly missed the mark at the time of initial exposure, with tools unknown
to most of us, is a wonderful sightful gift.

Just my two pennies...


jim k




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ferrocyanide/ Moonrise

2006-06-04 by djon43

Ferrocyanide was a commonly used by press photographers in the thirties. 

All prints that been exposed to ferrocyanide are eventually destroyed
by it, no matter how much "archival" washing. Of course, if you try
the recommended hours-long washing you're a villain, into wasting water. 

Since it's terribly poisonous and there's no way to neutralize it on a
print or in the sewer, one must ignore both permanence and the
environment to use it. 

In post-printing it can produce brilliant, localized whites in a print
that's otherwise dark and moody. But Photoshop is a more honorable tool. 



> 
> If anyone has ever tried this technique, it is quite marvellous, but
> extremely, 
> extremely reactive.  Practice. practice, and practice again, using
lots of
> H2O 
> from the end of a small nozzle hose allowing for a focused pour of
H2O on
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> the subject area, and the use of a fine, fine brush, is essential. :)
> 
> Bruce introduced me to this technique, more the 20 years ago, and I have
> not for gotten the moment I called him ³Captain Ferricyanide,² during a

RE: [Digital BW] ferrocyanide/ Moonrise

2006-06-04 by Paul Roark

> 
> Ferrocyanide was a commonly used by press photographers in the thirties.

And lots of fine art printers.


> All prints that been exposed to ferrocyanide are eventually destroyed
> by it, no matter how much "archival" washing. 

I've never heard this.  What happens?  This would include a lot of fine art
silver prints.

The ability to get the bright highlights without this obnoxious step is one
of the significant benefits of inkjet printing, in my view.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] ferrocyanide/ Moonrise

2006-06-04 by deandadin@aol.com

Hello guys, I just wanted to add a comment regarding bleaching.   There is a 
better bleach that does not degrade the image over time and it will bleach to 
white. Ferrocyanide based bleaches of course cant do that. The bleach I am 
referring to is a    combination of Thiourea and Iodine. This bleach can be used 
in any dilution for either slow bleaching or rapid bleaching. It will remove 
the blackest black and leave no residue in the paper. It will bleach to white, 
not to the yellow color that ferrocynide will. To nutralize this bleach 
rapidly just apply a wash of diluted acetic acid stop bath in the area bleached and 
then wash the print for a normal amount of time.   The bleach will be inactive 
and will not degrade the image over time. Thiourea must be mixed carefully 
beacuse any residue can affect prints so clean, clean, clean and dont be sloppy. 
As far as mixing the bleach, it is mixed in two parts, thiourea in one bottle 
and Iodine in the other.When used mix the two parts together and test to see 
what the bleaching effect will be. Over time you will get a feel for this 
bleach and the results are wonderful. Use an eyedropper to mix the two solutions. 
The two solutions will last for years in there separate bottles. Only mix 
small amounts as needed. I hope that you find this a help.   Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] ferrocyanide/ Moonrise

2006-06-04 by Eric Neilsen

What about all those Sepia Toned prints? Sorry but I think that to be
incorrect or not 100% accurate. Thiourea is without environmental concerns
either.  

Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street
Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
http://ericneilsenphotography.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djon43
> Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 8:15 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] ferrocyanide/ Moonrise
> 
> Ferrocyanide was a commonly used by press photographers in the thirties.
> 
> All prints that been exposed to ferrocyanide are eventually destroyed
> by it, no matter how much "archival" washing. Of course, if you try
> the recommended hours-long washing you're a villain, into wasting water.
> 
> Since it's terribly poisonous and there's no way to neutralize it on a
> print or in the sewer, one must ignore both permanence and the
> environment to use it.
> 
> In post-printing it can produce brilliant, localized whites in a print
> that's otherwise dark and moody. But Photoshop is a more honorable tool.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > If anyone has ever tried this technique, it is quite marvellous, but
> > extremely,
> > extremely reactive.  Practice. practice, and practice again, using
> lots of
> > H2O
> > from the end of a small nozzle hose allowing for a focused pour of
> H2O on
> > the subject area, and the use of a fine, fine brush, is essential. :)
> >
> > Bruce introduced me to this technique, more the 20 years ago, and I have
> > not for gotten the moment I called him ³Captain Ferricyanide,² during a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>

RE: [Digital BW] ferrocyanide/ Moonrise

2006-06-04 by Eric Neilsen

Should have read "Thiourea is NOT without..."

Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street
Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
http://ericneilsenphotography.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric
> Neilsen
> Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:59 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] ferrocyanide/ Moonrise
> 
> What about all those Sepia Toned prints? Sorry but I think that to be
> incorrect or not 100% accurate. Thiourea is without environmental concerns
> either.
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 4101 Commerce Street
> Suite 9
> Dallas, TX 75226
> http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> djon43
> > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 8:15 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] ferrocyanide/ Moonrise
> >
> > Ferrocyanide was a commonly used by press photographers in the thirties.
> >
> > All prints that been exposed to ferrocyanide are eventually destroyed
> > by it, no matter how much "archival" washing. Of course, if you try
> > the recommended hours-long washing you're a villain, into wasting water.
> >
> > Since it's terribly poisonous and there's no way to neutralize it on a
> > print or in the sewer, one must ignore both permanence and the
> > environment to use it.
> >
> > In post-printing it can produce brilliant, localized whites in a print
> > that's otherwise dark and moody. But Photoshop is a more honorable tool.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > If anyone has ever tried this technique, it is quite marvellous, but
> > > extremely,
> > > extremely reactive.  Practice. practice, and practice again, using
> > lots of
> > > H2O
> > > from the end of a small nozzle hose allowing for a focused pour of
> > H2O on
> > > the subject area, and the use of a fine, fine brush, is essential. :)
> > >
> > > Bruce introduced me to this technique, more the 20 years ago, and I
> have
> > > not for gotten the moment I called him ³Captain Ferricyanide,² during
> a
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
> as
> > they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
> same
> > page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
> from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> > and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> > “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA;
> (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] ferrocyanide/ Moonrise

2006-06-04 by Peter De Smidt

djon43 wrote:
>  
>
> Since it's terribly poisonous and there's no way to neutralize it on a
> print or in the sewer, one must ignore both permanence and the
> environment to use it. 
>   

It's not very poisonous, although it sounds like it is.  I once got a 
splash of it in my mouth, and so I went to the doctor. He said that I'd 
have to have swallowed about 1 table spoon in order for there to have 
been a problem. Regarding the environmental impact, I'm not a scientist 
but I doubt very much that using a small amount of ferricyanide has more 
environmental impact than my driving to work (once).  Finally, as to the 
longevity of prints, they do need to be fixed afterwards, but then 
what's the problem?  It's also used in bleach/redevelopment toners (as 
I'm sure you know), many of which make the print more archival. One 
should be careful with it, like you should be will all photo chemicals. 
You're over-reacting a bit. (And no, I don't usually bleach prints.)

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Something wrong with new batch FS/FSN?

2006-06-05 by John Custodio

Duane-

Yes, these numbers are helpful. They seem about right
from what I remember when I used FSN and PiezoTone
selenium awhile back. In any case, my numbers are now
somewhat lower than yours (mine for FS on HPR being
1.71, 1.31, .49, .36).

-John

--- dlruckus <dlruckus@...> wrote:

> I have recent #s from the UTFS setup with Premier
> Premium matt and
> Epson DS matt.
> 
>                For PPDSM they are: K=1.71 d'log, 
>                                    C=1.43
>                                    M=0.70
>                                    Y=0.56
> 
>                For EPDSM they are: K=1.66
>                                    C=1.39
>                                    M=0.71
>                                    Y=0.56
> 
> These are for the same QTR conditions but using a
> 3000. I would think
> that aside from slight differences due to larger dot
> size on the 3000
> the densities should be similar across printers. I
> haven't set up for
> the UTFSN as yet.
> 
> Hope this is helpful.
> 
> Regards
> Duane
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> John Custodio
> <custodiojohn@...> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Epson 4000, FSN C, M, Y on the left side, FS C, M,
> Y
> > on the right side (in the LC, LM, LK positions),
> Eboni
> > Black. Using QTR. Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308.
> > 
> > QTR ink separation page printed at 100%.
> > Eye One spectro. 
> > 100% densities read:
> > 
> > Eboni 1.71
> > FSN-C 1.24 Lab a=-0.5 b=-0.2
> > FSN-M  .53 Lab a=0.3 b=-6.7
> > FSN-Y  .36 Lab a=0.2 b=-4.4
> > FS-C  1.31
> > FS-M   .49
> > FS-Y   .36
> > 
> > I've used FSN and FS on this machine before with
> no
> > problem. What seems wrong is:
> > 
> > The FSN-M and Y seem too blue (note high negative
> b
> > numbers) while the FSN-C is close to neutral.
> > 
> > The dark grays for both FSN and FS should be
> darker
> > (density around 1.5?). Also for both FSN and FS it
> > seems there should be more of a density difference
> > between the light grays and middle grays (M and
> Y).
> > 
> > I used to know the 100% densities on HPR of
> Piezotone
> > Selenium inks when I used to had them in my
> printer,
> > but that was a long time ago and I don't have
> those
> > test targets anymore.
> > 
> > What should these numbers be and what about the
> blue
> > FSN? I'm suspecting I got bottles with the wrong
> ink.
> > (The bottles are labeled FSN-C, FSN-M, etc.). I
> will
> > be contacting MIS on Monday.
> > 
> > -John
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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Re: [Digital BW] ferrocyanide/ Moonrise

2006-06-05 by Brian

Hi All
I have a copy of 'The British Journal Photographic Almanac' 1920 which gives 
formulae for seven different negative reducers. They are Farmers 
(ferricyanide), Belitski's (with Oxalic Acid), Persulphate (just ammonium 
persulphate), Iodine-cyanide (with Potassium Cyanide), Ceric Sulphate (still 
available), Permanganate, Bichromate (potassium), Hyporchlor and Alum (with 
Eau de Javelle - sodium hypochlorite) and 'Eders' which was:
Potassium cyanide....5 gms.
Potassium Iodide.....10 gms
Mercury bichloride...10 gms and
Water .... 1,000cc. It says it reduces slowly, and is non-staining and 
intensely poisionous - try getting that one past health and safety.
There is also 'Baskett's Local Reducer':
Globe metal polish.....2d tin .( old pennies)
Terebene.......2 ozs. (a cold remedy)
Salad oil....2 ozs
'Dense parts of the negative are rubbed down with the reducer applied by the 
finger-tip or with a bit of chamois leather'
Interesting times!

Brian Price

Re: [Digital BW] ferrocyanide/ Moonrise

2006-06-05 by john dean

I used to work at an archive that housed all the original master
prints of Adams and W.Eugene Smith. I held them in my hands on a daily
basis and it was a good way to learn. Smith was teaching there in
Arizona, at the end of his life, so we had the opportunity of not only
studying all the original work but also asking him about it and often
recording his conversations for posterity.

It is a strange thing but Smith shot on the run and in chaotic
situations and often with a not very powerful flash unit in very dark
situations with a Nikon. More often than not his exposures were far
from ideal. He used Potassium Ferrocynide bleach on so many  of his
world famous prints that it would blow your mind. The famous one of
Albert Switzier close up or the burial group from the Spanish Village
series for instance. He used the bleach right on the surface of the
print to lighten subtle info in the shadows. It's strange but it
worked extremely well. These master prints were of course first used
for reproduction in Life Magazine but for print sales he either
repeated the process or had 4x5 copy negs made of the "master" prints.

I did some of this bleaching back then out of curiosity. The one thing
that is extremely important is that you treat the film or prints with
a strong hypo clear solution and wash the material for a long time! If
there is even a slight hint of the bleach left on the print or film it
will turn a sick yellow orange color in time. I've seen a lot of those
stained prints around. We actually had a guy in graduate school who
did some really beautiful creatively bleached prints, a whole body of
work, and they all stained before he graduated. So be careful.

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian"
<brian@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Hi All
> I have a copy of 'The British Journal Photographic Almanac' 1920
which gives 
> formulae for seven different negative reducers. They are Farmers 
> (ferricyanide), Belitski's (with Oxalic Acid), Persulphate (just
ammonium 
> persulphate), Iodine-cyanide (with Potassium Cyanide), Ceric
Sulphate (still 
> available), Permanganate, Bichromate (potassium), Hyporchlor and
Alum (with 
> Eau de Javelle - sodium hypochlorite) and 'Eders' which was:
> Potassium cyanide....5 gms.
> Potassium Iodide.....10 gms
> Mercury bichloride...10 gms and
> Water .... 1,000cc. It says it reduces slowly, and is non-staining and 
> intensely poisionous - try getting that one past health and safety.
> There is also 'Baskett's Local Reducer':
> Globe metal polish.....2d tin .( old pennies)
> Terebene.......2 ozs. (a cold remedy)
> Salad oil....2 ozs
> 'Dense parts of the negative are rubbed down with the reducer
applied by the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> finger-tip or with a bit of chamois leather'
> Interesting times!
> 
> Brian Price
>

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