Digital BW, The Print

I've loaded my 2200 with what I call the 4K+, non-blended B&W setup that I'm
using in my 7500.  (See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4K+.pdf)   With 7
positions available, I have the 4 Ks (MK, PK, LK and LLK) plus full - if
light - color: LC, LM, and Y.  It appears to work very well.  The approach
requires at least a B&W rip (QTR or IJC).  If one had a rip that could
handle cmyk, this approach would even be more appealing, allowing, in
effect, virtually perfect B&W plus color in a k2 printer. 

 

The 7th ink position is fairly open.  Other obvious options would be Glop
for those who want to eliminate the gloss differential in the highlights of
glossy paper or red for what might be a more stable warm tone than the
yellow + magenta can give.  

 

For the 2200, I used the standard ink positions where possible.  The only
exceptions are that the PK is in the C position and LLK in the M position.

 

In the 7500, with its large, non-variable dots, I use a 50% dilution of the
LC to increase smoothness.  In the 2200, as I expected, the standard LC
works fine.  At a 14 inch standard viewing distance I can barely detect the
standard LC version from the 50% LC version.  With a magnifying hood at 6
inches I can see very fine dots in the full LC version, but the 50% LC
version is totally smooth.  While I can see the color dots with a 1600 dpi
scan, the 50% LC approach makes prints that are visually perfect as far as I
can see.  

 

I may standardize on the 50% LC, but it's easy to modify the profiles for
the full LC by just cutting the ink limit in half. I'll continue to
experiment a bit with the full LC to see if there are uses for it in B&W
(aside from the obvious advantages for k2 printers with a cmyk rip).  There
may be uses in B&W with split toning, but in general, I find obvious B&W -
color split tones look a bit gimmicky.  On the other hand, it's
effectiveness in advertising is obvious.  

 

While I doubt I'll have any interest in high gamut cyan in B&W, I do like
the ability to have the yellow available in the 2200 for warmer highlights
and warming brightened paper boarders.  This requires a rip that supports
alpha channels and split-toning.  (IJC does; I'm not sure about QTR.)

 

The 4K+ approach offers standard, widely-available and competitively priced
inks, as well as a workflow that allows full Lab control of B&W tones with
the minimum of color pigments.  It eliminates most of the QC issues that
were due to mixing errors.  The 50% LC is such an easy mix even clueless
employees should be able to get it right, and if they can't anyone can mix
it by pouring a bottle of MIS LC and MIS Glop together.  If one has a cmyk
rip and wants color for the k2 machines, this might also be possible.  

 

Going forward, with the k3 and the like taking the mainstream, high end of
the market, I think the dedicated B&W, lower-priced market will need to
coalesce around some practical standards.  I think this 4K+ approach may be
the ticket.  I'll try the 220 with it next.  Right now it's looking to me
like I'll be supporting the EZ monochrome approach (which includes the R2
inkset for hextones) and this 4K+ approach as the only ones that are needed.
The market is changing fast, and the dedicated B&W market will, I believe,
survive best by having just a few standard inksets that can be used on lots
of different printers.

 

I might add that with a rip, it appears fairly easy to support this
approach.  The carbon curves are the only ones that have any cross-overs,
and that is where the difficulty usually is with curves.  I found that the
7500 IJC carbon curves would work fine on the 2200 just by adjusting the ink
limits based on comparing 100% ink limit step wedges of the 2 printers.
While I ended up tweaking them a bit, it was not necessary.  All I had to do
was switch the ink positions to match the 2200 ink order and adjust the ink
limits based on comparison of step wedges.  The color curves needed some
modification, but that was easily accomplished.  If machines that are this
different can use the same underlying carbon curve cross-overs, this
suggests that most modern printers will be very easy to support with this
type of approach.

 

I might add that the 2200 prints with IJC are smoother than the Epson driver
prints.   I'll be trying to get down the learning curve for QTR as soon as I
can to lower the rip cost for users.  I suspect it and IJC print about the
same.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> I've loaded my 2200 with what I call the 4K+, non-blended B&W setup
that I'm
> using in my 7500.  (See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4K+.pdf)   With 7
> positions available, I have the 4 Ks (MK, PK, LK and LLK) plus full - if
> light - color: LC, LM, and Y.  It appears to work very well.  The
approach
> requires at least a B&W rip (QTR or IJC).

I've been using a similar system in one of my 2200s for over a year,
and it does work very well. I use Epson inks from the 4000/4800 (MK)
4800 (PK, LK, LLK, LC) and R800 (blue, diluted to 20% of its original
strength) with Krystal Topkote in the last position. I use IJC/OPM. 

I don't require anything warmer than the K3 inks themselves give,
hence the use of the LC and LB as the only toners. The blue was chosen
after experimenting with LM and R800 red. The R800 red worked well as
a warming toner, but as I said, I don't require the warm tones so I
removed it in favour of the Topkote.

I also use the Topkote for overcoating colour prints made on my colour
2200. I found that it worked best as as after coat rather than as a
simultaneous coat with the K3 set - ie it improved DMax and shadow
detail separation more as a second coat than if it was applied
simultaneously. I apply the Topkote with the Epson driver in high
speed using the Watercolor paper setting. The Topkote works better
than the Epson glop in my R800 for overcoating UC and K3 inks.

I switched to the dilute blue after a few months of use - the
full-strength blue sometimes gave a barely perceptible dottiness when
used with light tones.

Overall I'm very pleased with the quality of the system.

As an aside, I'm now using a third 2200 with IJC/OPM to make negatives
for silver gelatin printing using Canon red dye ink in various
dilutions - the project I shelved to develop and refine the K3 B&W
system described above.

Best,
Helen

Helen,

> <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
>> I've loaded my 2200 with what I call the 4K+, 
>> non-blended B&W setup that I'm
>> using in my 7500. See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4K+.pdf 
>> With 7 positions available, I have the 4 Ks (MK, PK, LK and LLK)
>> plus full - if light - color: LC, LM, and Y. 
>> It appears to work very well. The approach
>> requires at least a B&W rip (QTR or IJC).

> I've been using a similar system in one of my 2200s for 
> over a year, and it does work very well. 
> I use Epson inks from the 4000/4800 (MK) 4800 (PK, LK, LLK, LC)

My move to this approach is obviously intended, among other things, to open
up the general approach to the use of Epson and other inks without worrying
about dilution and the suitability of the base used for such. I have matched
test strips that use the 3D (which uses R800 Blue and no magenta), the new
2200 approach with MIS LM, and the new 2200 approach with Epson UC LM.  I'll
run a fade test to see what works the best.

> and R800 (blue, diluted to 20% of its original
> strength) with Krystal Topkote in the last position.

Are you using the MIS R800 Blue?  I'm not aware of any method of getting the
Epson R800 blue at a reasonable price.

The MIS R800 Blue appears to stay in suspension fairly well in the MIS base
if it's by itself.  In blended inksets use in large format printers,
however, it still is subject to the separation issues I've mentioned before.

I'm not sure how the Krystal Topkote compares to the MIS base, but, as noted
below, I'm suspicious Krystal Topkote is what MIS used originally as its
Glop. 

> I use IJC/OPM. 

> I don't require anything warmer than the K3 inks themselves 
> give, hence the use of the LC and LB as the only toners.

The k3 LLB has a greenish tint relative to the MIS LLK.  Does the Light Blue
by itself neutralize it fairly well, or is it still too magenta?

I found a water color pigment that works well alone in neutralizing MIS
carbon.  It's Daniel Smith's Indanthrone blue.  I've used it in inkjet
printing, but it really needs to be ground to a more uniform size -- more
work that I can do.  So, I'm sticking to off-the-shelf pigs.

> The blue was chosen after experimenting with LM and R800 red. 
> The R800 red worked well as a warming toner, but as I said, 
> I don't require the warm tones so I
> removed it in favour of the Topkote.

Yes, those are obvious alternatives for the 7th ink position.  In my e-mails
to MIS I'm also recommending Glop as the default ink in that position.  This
is, in part, just to avoid there being an un-used pigment in the printer
that would clog.  With Glop in the 7th position I can keep that jet open by
having some of it used even in matte prints -- just to keep things running
smoothly.  Those who use an alternative will be expected to be sophisticated
enough to shut off that ink position if they us a color ink.

How do you find Topkote compares to the new MIS Glop and Image Specialist's
WJ 824?  I suspect Topkote (WJ 822 -- see
http://www.image-specialists.com/specialty.htm ) might be what MIS used as
its original, darker Glop.


> ... Topkote ... I found that it worked best as as after coat 
> rather than as a simultaneous coat ...

That is what IS recommends.  MIS experimented with these after coats quite a
bit and then dropped the idea.  I'm not sure why. 

I've found Glop in the printer and used at the same time as the pigs can
effectively deal with the gloss differential at the paper white end of the
scale.  With MIS pigments, that's what some notice the most.  It also can
reduce bronzing a bit.  Again, with MIS pigs, there is so little of this,
that I think Glop will virtually eliminate it.  Obviously I will not be able
to increase dmax or overall gloss with the Glop used at the same time as the
pigments.

>I switched to the dilute blue after a few months of use - 
> the full-strength blue sometimes gave a barely perceptible 
> dottiness when used with light tones.

The Blue and Red have densities that are between the dark and light standard
colors (since they are used in the R800/1800 with small dots and no
cross-overs).  So, I'm not surprised they would be a bit rough in the 2200.
I'm even diluting the LC for the same reason.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Helen, Paul and others,

I do mostly antique photo restoration, but got a call from a former
client who's wanting me to work with him to produce a few copies of a
~60-page book commemorating his deceased wife's art and crafts.

It would be color, of course and my R2400 could handle that. What
concerns me most is paper selection and the possible need to coat the
pages.

I know there've been discussions in the past regarding this topic
either here or on other boards, but I don't recall seeing such
discussions since all the new papers and K3 inks have come into the
market.

Do any of you have any experience producing books with the newer
papers/K3 inks? If so, did you overcoat the prints? And how have they
held up?

Any and all thoughts/suggestions are welcome.

Thanks

Thomas Keesling
Hoosier Recollections
Indianapolis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach"
<helenbach@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> >
> > I've loaded my 2200 with what I call the 4K+, non-blended B&W setup
> that I'm
> > using in my 7500.  (See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4K+.pdf)  
With 7
> > positions available, I have the 4 Ks (MK, PK, LK and LLK) plus
full - if

> > light - color: LC, LM, and Y.  It appears to work very well.  The
> approach
> > requires at least a B&W rip (QTR or IJC).
> 
> I've been using a similar system in one of my 2200s for over a year,
> and it does work very well. I use Epson inks from the 4000/4800 (MK)
> 4800 (PK, LK, LLK, LC) and R800 (blue, diluted to 20% of its original
> strength) with Krystal Topkote in the last position. I use IJC/OPM. 
> 
> I don't require anything warmer than the K3 inks themselves give,
> hence the use of the LC and LB as the only toners. The blue was chosen
> after experimenting with LM and R800 red. The R800 red worked well as
> a warming toner, but as I said, I don't require the warm tones so I
> removed it in favour of the Topkote.
> 
> I also use the Topkote for overcoating colour prints made on my colour
> 2200. I found that it worked best as as after coat rather than as a
> simultaneous coat with the K3 set - ie it improved DMax and shadow
> detail separation more as a second coat than if it was applied
> simultaneously. I apply the Topkote with the Epson driver in high
> speed using the Watercolor paper setting. The Topkote works better
> than the Epson glop in my R800 for overcoating UC and K3 inks.
> 
> I switched to the dilute blue after a few months of use - the
> full-strength blue sometimes gave a barely perceptible dottiness when
> used with light tones.
> 
> Overall I'm very pleased with the quality of the system.
> 
> As an aside, I'm now using a third 2200 with IJC/OPM to make negatives
> for silver gelatin printing using Canon red dye ink in various
> dilutions - the project I shelved to develop and refine the K3 B&W
> system described above.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
>

Tom, 

 

I don't think the K3 inkset changes anything with respect to papers and
spraying.  Where I want better protection - which is for most final prints
that count - I still use Premier Art Print Shield for glossy papers and
Lascaux for most matte papers.  For the museum project I'm now involved with
I'm using Premier Art Print Shield for their 325 Hot Press matte paper.  The
extra UV protection is more important than a tiny loss in dmax for the old
photo reproductions.

 

Those new "glossy" papers like Crane Silver Rag are the most scuff resistant
papers I've seen, but they may be a bit stiff (and curled) for a book.

 

Good luck with the project.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas
Keesling
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:54 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 4K+ B&W inkset for 2200 and other printers-Topkote
for books???

 

Helen, Paul and others,

I do mostly antique photo restoration, but got a call from a former
client who's wanting me to work with him to produce a few copies of a
~60-page book commemorating his deceased wife's art and crafts.

It would be color, of course and my R2400 could handle that. What
concerns me most is paper selection and the possible need to coat the
pages.

I know there've been discussions in the past regarding this topic
either here or on other boards, but I don't recall seeing such
discussions since all the new papers and K3 inks have come into the
market.

Do any of you have any experience producing books with the newer
papers/K3 inks? If so, did you overcoat the prints? And how have they
held up?

Any and all thoughts/suggestions are welcome.

Thanks

Thomas Keesling
Hoosier Recollections
Indianapolis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach"
<helenbach@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> >
> > I've loaded my 2200 with what I call the 4K+, non-blended B&W setup
> that I'm
> > using in my 7500. (See http://home1.
<http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4K+.pdf> gte.net/res09aij/4K+.pdf) 
With 7
> > positions available, I have the 4 Ks (MK, PK, LK and LLK) plus
full - if
> > light - color: LC, LM, and Y. It appears to work very well. The
> approach
> > requires at least a B&W rip (QTR or IJC).
> 
> I've been using a similar system in one of my 2200s for over a year,
> and it does work very well. I use Epson inks from the 4000/4800 (MK)
> 4800 (PK, LK, LLK, LC) and R800 (blue, diluted to 20% of its original
> strength) with Krystal Topkote in the last position. I use IJC/OPM. 
> 
> I don't require anything warmer than the K3 inks themselves give,
> hence the use of the LC and LB as the only toners. The blue was chosen
> after experimenting with LM and R800 red. The R800 red worked well as
> a warming toner, but as I said, I don't require the warm tones so I
> removed it in favour of the Topkote.
> 
> I also use the Topkote for overcoating colour prints made on my colour
> 2200. I found that it worked best as as after coat rather than as a
> simultaneous coat with the K3 set - ie it improved DMax and shadow
> detail separation more as a second coat than if it was applied
> simultaneously. I apply the Topkote with the Epson driver in high
> speed using the Watercolor paper setting. The Topkote works better
> than the Epson glop in my R800 for overcoating UC and K3 inks.
> 
> I switched to the dilute blue after a few months of use - the
> full-strength blue sometimes gave a barely perceptible dottiness when
> used with light tones.
> 
> Overall I'm very pleased with the quality of the system.
> 
> As an aside, I'm now using a third 2200 with IJC/OPM to make negatives
> for silver gelatin printing using Canon red dye ink in various
> dilutions - the project I shelved to develop and refine the K3 B&W
> system described above.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul, I'd forgotten about the earlier comments here re the scuff
resistance of the Silver Rag paper! I've NEVER printed on anything
other than matte papers. I'd been using my trusty 3000 for color
printing for the past few years and I knew it couldn't handle the
Silver Rag paper. So I'd never looked at it. Maybe it's time to expand
my horizons now that I've got the R2400. I'll have to get a sample of
the Silver Rag and see how it works.

I'm assuming that your comment re the curled paper issue applies only
to the Crane Silver Rag sheets. I would be using sheets rather than
roll paper anyway.

Stiffness is another matter entirely and dealing with that may depend
on what type of binder is used.

Thanks for your comments!

Tom




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Those new "glossy" papers like Crane Silver Rag are the most scuff
resistant
> papers I've seen, but they may be a bit stiff (and curled) for a book.
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Thomas
> Keesling
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:54 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 4K+ B&W inkset for 2200 and other
printers-Topkote

> for books???
> 
>  
> 
> Helen, Paul and others,
> 
> I do mostly antique photo restoration, but got a call from a former
> client who's wanting me to work with him to produce a few copies of a
> ~60-page book commemorating his deceased wife's art and crafts.
> 
> It would be color, of course and my R2400 could handle that. What
> concerns me most is paper selection and the possible need to coat the
> pages.
> 
> I know there've been discussions in the past regarding this topic
> either here or on other boards, but I don't recall seeing such
> discussions since all the new papers and K3 inks have come into the
> market.
> 
> Do any of you have any experience producing books with the newer
> papers/K3 inks? If so, did you overcoat the prints? And how have they
> held up?
> 
> Any and all thoughts/suggestions are welcome.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Thomas Keesling
> Hoosier Recollections
> Indianapolis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach"
> <helenbach@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> > <paul.roark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've loaded my 2200 with what I call the 4K+, non-blended B&W setup
> > that I'm
> > > using in my 7500. (See http://home1.
> <http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4K+.pdf> gte.net/res09aij/4K+.pdf) 
> With 7
> > > positions available, I have the 4 Ks (MK, PK, LK and LLK) plus
> full - if
> > > light - color: LC, LM, and Y. It appears to work very well. The
> > approach
> > > requires at least a B&W rip (QTR or IJC).
> > 
> > I've been using a similar system in one of my 2200s for over a year,
> > and it does work very well. I use Epson inks from the 4000/4800 (MK)
> > 4800 (PK, LK, LLK, LC) and R800 (blue, diluted to 20% of its original
> > strength) with Krystal Topkote in the last position. I use IJC/OPM. 
> > 
> > I don't require anything warmer than the K3 inks themselves give,
> > hence the use of the LC and LB as the only toners. The blue was chosen
> > after experimenting with LM and R800 red. The R800 red worked well as
> > a warming toner, but as I said, I don't require the warm tones so I
> > removed it in favour of the Topkote.
> > 
> > I also use the Topkote for overcoating colour prints made on my colour
> > 2200. I found that it worked best as as after coat rather than as a
> > simultaneous coat with the K3 set - ie it improved DMax and shadow
> > detail separation more as a second coat than if it was applied
> > simultaneously. I apply the Topkote with the Epson driver in high
> > speed using the Watercolor paper setting. The Topkote works better
> > than the Epson glop in my R800 for overcoating UC and K3 inks.
> > 
> > I switched to the dilute blue after a few months of use - the
> > full-strength blue sometimes gave a barely perceptible dottiness when
> > used with light tones.
> > 
> > Overall I'm very pleased with the quality of the system.
> > 
> > As an aside, I'm now using a third 2200 with IJC/OPM to make negatives
> > for silver gelatin printing using Canon red dye ink in various
> > dilutions - the project I shelved to develop and refine the K3 B&W
> > system described above.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Helen
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hello Tom,

>Silver Rag paper...Maybe it's time to expand my horizons now that 
>I've got the R2400. I'll have to get a sample of the Silver Rag 
>and see how it works.

Please have a look at article #9b at the link below.  It contains a
review of Silver Rag as used with the 2400/K3 in ABW mode.  We are
fortunate with the 2400 that it's relatively easy and quick to swap in
the PK cart.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton, I should have known you'd have already posted something re
SR! <G>

I've read most of your stuff, but had apparently skipped #9b since I
haven't been in the market for a new paper. I haven't seen the SR
paper yet, but would probably share your concern with the glare. I've
never printed on anything other than matte paper, but will probably
get a sample to see how it looks. Besides, I've got that PK cart
sitting here unused...

Thanks...

Tom 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Tom,
> 
> >Silver Rag paper...Maybe it's time to expand my horizons now that 
> >I've got the R2400. I'll have to get a sample of the Silver Rag 
> >and see how it works.
> 
> Please have a look at article #9b at the link below.  It contains a
> review of Silver Rag as used with the 2400/K3 in ABW mode.  We are
> fortunate with the 2400 that it's relatively easy and quick to swap in
> the PK cart.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach" 
<helenbach@...> wrote:

> As an aside, I'm now using a third 2200 with IJC/OPM to make negatives
> for silver gelatin printing using Canon red dye ink in various
> dilutions - the project I shelved to develop and refine the K3 B&W
> system described above.

Helen,

I'm curious on this: do you use these negatives for contact printing or 
are the fine enough for enlarging?

Joost