Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 11/7/06 11:25:38 AM, e.neilsen2@... writes:


> 
> I am sure that we can all make gray scale ramps from our settings if that
> truly would mean something. However, as a silver printer for many years, I
> know that there are many ways to skin a cat, and file prep for printing will
> vary as does negative creation and printing still do in the land of silver.
> 

The way I see it is this: everyone was shocked by the level of variation of 
the different systems on a standard file, in the "A" prints. The adjusted "B" 
prints were typically less dissimilar, as people had used image adjustments to 
attempt to correct for system nonlinearity. This wasn't necessarily a concious 
thing, but as you use a system, and learn how to get the best out of it, you 
are working towards an optimal print. Eric's Piezo Sepia prints were nicely 
optimized... but for a system with a significantly lower d-max and a heavy color 
tint, so that put them in a different range. They look great by themselves, 
but weak on a wall of prints with deeper blacks. Its like natural paper looking 
white alone, but beige next to a whitened sheet.

So yes, I'd love to measure and plot a standard stepped grayramp from each of 
these systems, it might not interest everyone, but it would very much 
interest me. If others are interested, I'll volunteeer as measurement geek, and 
graphing geek, and will post the results. Let me know if there is interest in this, 
and I'll post shipping and mailing addresses, and sent out a standard ramp 
file that I can measure.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It will be interesting to see how things develop.  What's the gross revenue
for Kaiser?
 
Steve Holderfield

Mortgage Broker

 

Don't forget to visit my Photo Blog and please leave a comment:

http://stevesphoto567blog.blogspot.com/

 

Toll Free Phone or Fax: 

1-888-720-7696

 

"Nearly 30 years of success, providing my clients with simply the best
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  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:45 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] B&W Print Off comments




In a message dated 11/7/06 11:25:38 AM, e.neilsen2@worldnet
<mailto:e.neilsen2%40worldnet.att.net> .att.net writes:

> 
> I am sure that we can all make gray scale ramps from our settings if that
> truly would mean something. However, as a silver printer for many years, I
> know that there are many ways to skin a cat, and file prep for printing
will
> vary as does negative creation and printing still do in the land of
silver.
> 

The way I see it is this: everyone was shocked by the level of variation of 
the different systems on a standard file, in the "A" prints. The adjusted
"B" 
prints were typically less dissimilar, as people had used image adjustments
to 
attempt to correct for system nonlinearity. This wasn't necessarily a
concious 
thing, but as you use a system, and learn how to get the best out of it, you

are working towards an optimal print. Eric's Piezo Sepia prints were nicely 
optimized... but for a system with a significantly lower d-max and a heavy
color 
tint, so that put them in a different range. They look great by themselves, 
but weak on a wall of prints with deeper blacks. Its like natural paper
looking 
white alone, but beige next to a whitened sheet.

So yes, I'd love to measure and plot a standard stepped grayramp from each
of 
these systems, it might not interest everyone, but it would very much 
interest me. If others are interested, I'll volunteeer as measurement geek,
and 
graphing geek, and will post the results. Let me know if there is interest
in this, 
and I'll post shipping and mailing addresses, and sent out a standard ramp 
file that I can measure.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision <mailto:CDTobie%40colorvision.com> .com
www.colorvision.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David, And these are today's ( as of Saturday) Dmax. Will all of the black
have an equal fade? (shhhhh _ just a wee bit) . Perhaps, life in Taos, NM
and the southwest altered my view on this subject matter, but I saw many of
these prints as OVER the top in contrast. It is sand after all with a soft
light spilling all over the front of it. Heavy Color tint? Weak? These would
not be the words that I'd use to describe the differences; Appropriately
colored and Open. 

 

I suppose one might also get a much different take looking at the in a
daylight situation with mixed lighting which is a more normal viewing
condition than only tungsten light. 

 

Eric

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:45 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] B&W Print Off comments

 


In a message dated 11/7/06 11:25:38 AM, e.neilsen2@worldnet
<mailto:e.neilsen2%40worldnet.att.net> .att.net writes:

> 
> I am sure that we can all make gray scale ramps from our settings if that
> truly would mean something. However, as a silver printer for many years, I
> know that there are many ways to skin a cat, and file prep for printing
will
> vary as does negative creation and printing still do in the land of
silver.
> 

The way I see it is this: everyone was shocked by the level of variation of 
the different systems on a standard file, in the "A" prints. The adjusted
"B" 
prints were typically less dissimilar, as people had used image adjustments
to 
attempt to correct for system nonlinearity. This wasn't necessarily a
concious 
thing, but as you use a system, and learn how to get the best out of it, you

are working towards an optimal print. Eric's Piezo Sepia prints were nicely 
optimized... but for a system with a significantly lower d-max and a heavy
color 
tint, so that put them in a different range. They look great by themselves, 
but weak on a wall of prints with deeper blacks. Its like natural paper
looking 
white alone, but beige next to a whitened sheet.

So yes, I'd love to measure and plot a standard stepped grayramp from each
of 
these systems, it might not interest everyone, but it would very much 
interest me. If others are interested, I'll volunteeer as measurement geek,
and 
graphing geek, and will post the results. Let me know if there is interest
in this, 
and I'll post shipping and mailing addresses, and sent out a standard ramp 
file that I can measure.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision <mailto:CDTobie%40colorvision.com> .com
www.colorvision.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think that is a good point. If a perfectly created platinum contact
print of that image by Frederick Evans had been there you could have
said it looked "weak" - and that would be wrong. You know is is hard
enough to judge two or three well done prints together, much less a
room full. But it was interesting. For me some of the ones that had
both delicate smooth light variations across the surface along with a
sharp textural component, AND a substantial dmax were the most
desirable, but that is just my taste this month.

Related to this, upon first look the 2400 K3 prints looked sharp,
strong, and clean, but after longer looking had something missing in
the midtone and ultra highlight seperation. But it is subtle. 

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen
Photo " <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> David, And these are today's ( as of Saturday) Dmax. Will all of the
black
> have an equal fade? (shhhhh _ just a wee bit) . Perhaps, life in
Taos, NM
> and the southwest altered my view on this subject matter, but I saw
many of
> these prints as OVER the top in contrast. It is sand after all with
a soft
> light spilling all over the front of it. Heavy Color tint? Weak?
These would
> not be the words that I'd use to describe the differences; Appropriately
> colored and Open. 
> 
>  
> 
> I suppose one might also get a much different take looking at the in a
> daylight situation with mixed lighting which is a more normal viewing
> condition than only tungsten light. 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214-827-8301
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
>  
> 
> Skype : ejprinter
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> CDTobie@...
> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:45 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] B&W Print Off comments
> 
>  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 11/7/06 11:25:38 AM, e.neilsen2@worldnet
> <mailto:e.neilsen2%40worldnet.att.net> .att.net writes:
> 
> > 
> > I am sure that we can all make gray scale ramps from our settings
if that
> > truly would mean something. However, as a silver printer for many
years, I
> > know that there are many ways to skin a cat, and file prep for
printing
> will
> > vary as does negative creation and printing still do in the land of
> silver.
> > 
> 
> The way I see it is this: everyone was shocked by the level of
variation of 
> the different systems on a standard file, in the "A" prints. The
adjusted
> "B" 
> prints were typically less dissimilar, as people had used image
adjustments
> to 
> attempt to correct for system nonlinearity. This wasn't necessarily a
> concious 
> thing, but as you use a system, and learn how to get the best out of
it, you
> 
> are working towards an optimal print. Eric's Piezo Sepia prints were
nicely 
> optimized... but for a system with a significantly lower d-max and a
heavy
> color 
> tint, so that put them in a different range. They look great by
themselves, 
> but weak on a wall of prints with deeper blacks. Its like natural paper
> looking 
> white alone, but beige next to a whitened sheet.
> 
> So yes, I'd love to measure and plot a standard stepped grayramp
from each
> of 
> these systems, it might not interest everyone, but it would very much 
> interest me. If others are interested, I'll volunteeer as
measurement geek,
> and 
> graphing geek, and will post the results. Let me know if there is
interest
> in this, 
> and I'll post shipping and mailing addresses, and sent out a
standard ramp 

> file that I can measure.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@colorvision <mailto:CDTobie%40colorvision.com> .com
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I've found that the 2400 is nearly totally the same as Piezo in  
quality when printing texture (like sand or grass) but that you see  
clumping of grays in smooth rock and skin-tones when you hold the  
print up against a Piezo. You won't see it on its own though . . .  
That's what I noticed in the 2400 print at the print off as well.

Walker

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/7/06 11:25:38 AM, e.neilsen2@... writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > I am sure that we can all make gray scale ramps from our settings
if that
> > truly would mean something. However, as a silver printer for many
years, I
> > know that there are many ways to skin a cat, and file prep for
printing will
> > vary as does negative creation and printing still do in the land
of silver.
> > 
> 
> The way I see it is this: everyone was shocked by the level of
variation of 
> the different systems on a standard file, in the "A" prints.

Well, I hope everyone has recovered, must have been awful. I can't
stay out of this any more, the dialogue has become simply silly.
Of course they were all different. We were instructed to leave the
file in the tagged space, no adjustment of any kind. Had we been
allowed to color manage, not doubt the differences would all but
disapeared.
Basically, the A versions showed raw output, there was no reason to
expect ANY a version to acurately represent the file. How people chose
to deal with this I don't know.


>...Eric's Piezo Sepia prints were nicely 
> optimized... but for a system with a significantly lower d-max and a
heavy color 
> tint, so that put them in a different range. They look great by
themselves, 
> but weak on a wall of prints with deeper blacks.

The Peizo systems do not have a lower dmax than the majority of MK
systems out there. In fact, I can't reach my Piezo dmax with my UCK3
9800 OEM setup. People familiar with these systems on this list over
the years know that.
What Eric may or may not have done to his file is unknown.
There was nothing below 95% K in the file to begin with. So the A
versions that were not cheated would have given no indications of any
system's damx capability. Systems that are wide open would have seemed
weaker than systems more plugged up, as that 95% would have been
darker, particularly unmanaged.
What anyone did with endpoints editing in the B versions is unknown. 

There was no K in the file, particularly to be seen in the A versions.
Tyler

I agree. I think we all have ways to "optimize" our systems and color  
manage them. I wasn't expecting everything to be the same for the A  
prints though I was a little surprised. I was most interested in 3  
things on the technical end.

1. Tonal continuity (not necessarily gamma).
2. Hue (this was really interesting. props to Tyler and his 5 and  
6ers.)   We also found out the difference between HP "neutral" and  
Jon Cone "neutral". Jon Cone neutral is somewhere between warm  
neutral and selenium while HP is sort'of around a Piezotone cool- 
neutral. Now if I put an HP set in and a Piezotone Neutral set in I  
could go between Neutral and Neutral.   Great. ;-)
3. resolution and sharpness. (That's an issue with soft papers like  
photo rag at times.)

But I was really interested in the interpreted images. Most everyone  
brought the image down (not down in time ala darkroom, down in  
luminance) and added contrast. A few people rounded out the tree  
trunk and the clay building to the right and burned down the right- 
bottom rock that was nearly the lightest thing in the photo (I was  
surprised that so few people did that rock burn). Most kept open the  
shadows under the cliffs. Most burned down the top-left cliffs to  
centralize the image a bit and give more verticality to the tree  
trunk. I noticed a few had dodged the individual steps of the top  
cliff-ladder . . .

what else . . . . . . .

I guess all in all the thing I noticed most was that we were all a  
little wrapped up in technicalities and forgot to talk about just the  
visual clarity and quality of the prints. I almost wanted to see  
everyone focus on each print alone at a time like a formal crit back  
in art school days. I think maybe is was the little time and little  
space. Maybe we all feel more free typing our words than speaking  
them. I would like to see us all get together again for a full day  
and in a larger space . . . .

Anyway, it was a great get-together none the less.

All the best, Walker

For those of us who did not make it, following this thread might be a  
little better if we can see the test image that was used and possibly  
making available for download so we can print it to see how we  
do, ...to compare to comments being made.
Mark

On Nov 7, 2006, at 3:40 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:

> I agree. I think we all have ways to "optimize" our systems and color
> manage them. I wasn't expecting everything to be the same for the A
> prints though I was a little surprised. I was most interested in 3
> things on the technical end.
>
> 1. Tonal continuity (not necessarily gamma).
> 2. Hue (this was really interesting. props to Tyler and his 5 and
> 6ers.)   We also found out the difference between HP "neutral" and
> Jon Cone "neutral". Jon Cone neutral is somewhere between warm
> neutral and selenium while HP is sort'of around a Piezotone cool-
> neutral. Now if I put an HP set in and a Piezotone Neutral set in I
> could go between Neutral and Neutral.   Great. ;-)
> 3. resolution and sharpness. (That's an issue with soft papers like
> photo rag at times.)
>
> But I was really interested in the interpreted images. Most everyone
> brought the image down (not down in time ala darkroom, down in
> luminance) and added contrast. A few people rounded out the tree
> trunk and the clay building to the right and burned down the right-
> bottom rock that was nearly the lightest thing in the photo (I was
> surprised that so few people did that rock burn). Most kept open the
> shadows under the cliffs. Most burned down the top-left cliffs to
> centralize the image a bit and give more verticality to the tree
> trunk. I noticed a few had dodged the individual steps of the top
> cliff-ladder . . .
>
> what else . . . . . . .
>
> I guess all in all the thing I noticed most was that we were all a
> little wrapped up in technicalities and forgot to talk about just the
> visual clarity and quality of the prints. I almost wanted to see
> everyone focus on each print alone at a time like a formal crit back
> in art school days. I think maybe is was the little time and little
> space. Maybe we all feel more free typing our words than speaking
> them. I would like to see us all get together again for a full day
> and in a larger space . . . .
>
> Anyway, it was a great get-together none the less.
>
> All the best, Walker
>
>
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In a message dated 11/7/06 2:15:12 PM, e.neilsen2@... writes:


> David, And these are today's ( as of Saturday) Dmax. Will all of the black
> have an equal fade? (shhhhh _ just a wee bit) .
> 
They are all latest generation pigment inksets, Henry Wilhelm has had most of 
them in his torture chamber...

>  Perhaps, life in Taos, NM
> and the southwest altered my view on this subject matter, but I saw many of
> these prints as OVER the top in contrast.
> 
Contrast isn't really a function of black density, more of gray ramp 
linearity. It should ideally be a function of how the image is shot (or in the case of 
high bit, processed) to be printed, with the print system left out of the 
equation, but as we saw the current systems don't really allow for that. Burned 
out highlights with no detail don't show linearity, clogged shadows don't show 
linearity, and a midtones that are too dark or light don't either. Contrast, 
as I define it, consists of pushing the dark tones towards black and the light 
tones towards white. Low contast tends to mean the opposite. Meaning clogging 
and clipping. What my daughter (a real contrast freak) calls "really gray, 
Dad." So yes, there were prints with clogged shadows, and others with blown or 
nearly blown highlights. Maybe both in the same print, I don't recall. And yours 
certainly didn't have those attributes. But there were also prints (all of 
them, as I recall) with a longer tonal range than the Piezo Sepia (due to a 
significantly deeper black) and and a couple with pretty good zoning throughout 
the range. Thats what I would call a correct result, for a properly tuned 
product. Yours was pleasingly tuned, but for a shorter range, and a significant 
tint. Carbon is close enough to neutral to do side by side comparisons. With sepia 
its difficult, like comparing a watercolor to an oil painting.

>  It is sand after all with a soft
> light spilling all over the front of it.
> 
Making it a great choice for Sepia.

>  Heavy Color tint?
> 
Thats the definition of sepia. Most non-photographers see carbon and subtle 
tints as simply being black and white. They see sepia as being sepia. Its a 
more distinct tint. This isn't a bad thing, in fact sepia is such a nice tone 
that "really gray, Dad" turns into "really sepia" which is quite pleasing, 
encouraging lower contrast choices.

>  Weak?
> 
Again by definition; the d-max is lower, and sepia encourages lower contrast 
as well, see above. Weak is not meant as a value judgement, its a description 
of dynamic range. Pencil has a weaker dynamic range than pen, but can be much 
more descriptive, and is charming in a similar way to sepia. In fact, sepia 
pastel sticks are an even better analogy...

>  These would
> not be the words that I'd use to describe the differences; Appropriately
> colored and Open.
> 
Again, good reasons for using sepia. I personally like to have it both ways, 
and lots of others as well, which is why I focused on developing a tintable, 
tunable system, This allows starting with a wide dynamic range, deep black,   
dead neutral tonality, creamy smooth gradients, and very precise linearity. 
Once I have all that, I can print neutral, high dynamic range prints by default. 
But I can also produce any tint and feel I want. I could emulate the low 
contrast, soft, silky sepia of your prints (and after seeing them I am certainly 
tempted to), or I could do other, unique things. I've taken shots of mine from 
the Taos/Santa Fe area and cross tinted them in reverse of the usual 
Platinum/Paladium tint. That is to say cool highlights, and sepia shadow tones. Thats 
because those images had light skys that deserved cool tones, and all the mid 
and dark tones were adobe earth forms, begging for sepia. Without a system that 
is both very flexible, and very previewable, I would never have come up with 
such a counterintuitive choice. It makes those images very unique.

So please, take part in the grayramp exercise, so that I can figure out what 
your tonalities are... I'm looking forward to trying them!

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Second the motion to provide a downloadable file so we can  
experiment, too.

Best,

Chuck

On Nov 7, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Mark Savoia wrote:

> For those of us who did not make it, following this thread might be a
> little better if we can see the test image that was used and possibly
> making available for download so we can print it to see how we
> do, ...to compare to comments being made.
> Mark
>

In a message dated 11/7/06 2:32:15 PM, deanwork2003@... writes:


> I think that is a good point. If a perfectly created platinum contact
> print of that image by Frederick Evans had been there you could have
> said it looked "weak" - and that would be wrong.
> 

No, that would have been right... it has a much weaker dynamic range than the 
inkjet systems we were looking at. That doesn't mean its not a beautiful 
print. One can choose to work in a low dynamic range system, or one can choose a 
flexible solution, and for some images choose a low dynamic range, when 
appropriate. That can make lovely results, with a weak dynamic range, just as 
watercolors do.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is there such a thing as liquid graphite? Talking about low dynamic  
range, that would be an amazing "inkset" if anyone built it. It would  
be silvery and shiny.  Man.  You got me thinking.

Walker

Tyler, I did nothing other than open it in IP with MY standard setting,
allowing for the gamma setting of the print, and hit print.  For those of
you that don't use IP for your printing needs, or know nothing to little of
the history of the IP RIP and Cone inks here you go.

 

The RIP that Inkjet mall provided for the Peizo group was the ProB&W 24. It
was sold along with several sets of inks in several tones. That RIP and
those inks were then removed from the Inkjet Mall product line. They were
replaced with new inks and the first choice offered up included IP. That
however did not last long, and it was replaced with Studio Print. I had
already paid for IP through another vendor and was not going to put out
another $1500+ to get Studio Print. There has been no up dating of profiles
and NO SUPPORT from EITHER  Cone or Colorbyte on the newer inks. Colorbyte
couldn't even tell me if they were made with museum black or photo black.
These have two different dmax reading and life in the black lane.  IP does
have tone controls, ink limits, color spaces, etc.  so there is control to a
point, but they HOLD the key to new profiles and I simply have not paid them
for custom profiles.  I make prints with a created custom curve/tone within
IP and ink limits set for different papers. While there are several profiles
for older popular papers, nothing new is there. 

 

I am thrifty when I can be, and use a Kodak dial densitometer in my
darkroom. I have checked it against local lab reading for both reflective
and transmission and while it is still and eye ball measurement, I do OK
with it. I have recently purchased the Print Fix Pro Suite, but that does
not help for the IP side of life. For those that were there, I made several
version Bs; two with my Peizo inks at different sharpnesses, and one with
the 4800 ABW that through several tweaks got as close to the Sepia set of
Cone as I could. 

 

The color space setting, as well as the rendering intent, effect the print
in density. IP also has a slider from 1 to 100 to adjust the dmax. SINCE
there is NO way I am paying these guys $500 for a custom profile, my work
space is based upon a standard setup of positions; otherwise know as "eric's
profile". Eric's profile was used to make version A. 

 

Who else on this list uses IP as their B&W print engine?

 

The file did only go down to 95%, and that is an indication to me that
maxium black IS NOT required, or that is Amadou's standard black point.
Either way it is how the file came, so it was how the file was kept.  

 

Eric 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter


>...Eric's Piezo Sepia prints were nicely 
> optimized... but for a system with a significantly lower d-max and a
heavy color 
> tint, so that put them in a different range. They look great by
themselves, 
> but weak on a wall of prints with deeper blacks.

The Peizo systems do not have a lower dmax than the majority of MK
systems out there. In fact, I can't reach my Piezo dmax with my UCK3
9800 OEM setup. People familiar with these systems on this list over
the years know that.
What Eric may or may not have done to his file is unknown.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David, These deep shadows and brown highlights are achieved in my darkroom
with selenium and then sepia toning. Or sepia first with selenium second
with a touch of gold to boot : ) 

 

I'll be happy to send you a printed ramp. Now it is off to go vote!  

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 2:51 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] B&W Print Off comments

 


In a message dated 11/7/06 2:15:12 PM, e.neilsen2@worldnet
<mailto:e.neilsen2%40worldnet.att.net> .att.net writes:

> David, And these are today's ( as of Saturday) Dmax. Will all of the black
> have an equal fade? (shhhhh _ just a wee bit) .
> 
They are all latest generation pigment inksets, Henry Wilhelm has had most
of 
them in his torture chamber...

> Perhaps, life in Taos, NM
> and the southwest altered my view on this subject matter, but I saw many
of
> these prints as OVER the top in contrast.
> 
Contrast isn't really a function of black density, more of gray ramp 
linearity. It should ideally be a function of how the image is shot (or in
the case of 
high bit, processed) to be printed, with the print system left out of the 
equation, but as we saw the current systems don't really allow for that.
Burned 
out highlights with no detail don't show linearity, clogged shadows don't
show 
linearity, and a midtones that are too dark or light don't either. Contrast,

as I define it, consists of pushing the dark tones towards black and the
light 
tones towards white. Low contast tends to mean the opposite. Meaning
clogging 
and clipping. What my daughter (a real contrast freak) calls "really gray, 
Dad." So yes, there were prints with clogged shadows, and others with blown
or 
nearly blown highlights. Maybe both in the same print, I don't recall. And
yours 
certainly didn't have those attributes. But there were also prints (all of 
them, as I recall) with a longer tonal range than the Piezo Sepia (due to a 
significantly deeper black) and and a couple with pretty good zoning
throughout 
the range. Thats what I would call a correct result, for a properly tuned 
product. Yours was pleasingly tuned, but for a shorter range, and a
significant 
tint. Carbon is close enough to neutral to do side by side comparisons. With
sepia 
its difficult, like comparing a watercolor to an oil painting.

> It is sand after all with a soft
> light spilling all over the front of it.
> 
Making it a great choice for Sepia.

> Heavy Color tint?
> 
Thats the definition of sepia. Most non-photographers see carbon and subtle 
tints as simply being black and white. They see sepia as being sepia. Its a 
more distinct tint. This isn't a bad thing, in fact sepia is such a nice
tone 
that "really gray, Dad" turns into "really sepia" which is quite pleasing, 
encouraging lower contrast choices.

> Weak?
> 
Again by definition; the d-max is lower, and sepia encourages lower contrast

as well, see above. Weak is not meant as a value judgement, its a
description 
of dynamic range. Pencil has a weaker dynamic range than pen, but can be
much 
more descriptive, and is charming in a similar way to sepia. In fact, sepia 
pastel sticks are an even better analogy...

> These would
> not be the words that I'd use to describe the differences; Appropriately
> colored and Open.
> 
Again, good reasons for using sepia. I personally like to have it both ways,

and lots of others as well, which is why I focused on developing a tintable,

tunable system, This allows starting with a wide dynamic range, deep black, 
dead neutral tonality, creamy smooth gradients, and very precise linearity. 
Once I have all that, I can print neutral, high dynamic range prints by
default. 
But I can also produce any tint and feel I want. I could emulate the low 
contrast, soft, silky sepia of your prints (and after seeing them I am
certainly 
tempted to), or I could do other, unique things. I've taken shots of mine
from 
the Taos/Santa Fe area and cross tinted them in reverse of the usual 
Platinum/Paladium tint. That is to say cool highlights, and sepia shadow
tones. Thats 
because those images had light skys that deserved cool tones, and all the
mid 
and dark tones were adobe earth forms, begging for sepia. Without a system
that 
is both very flexible, and very previewable, I would never have come up with

such a counterintuitive choice. It makes those images very unique.

So please, take part in the grayramp exercise, so that I can figure out what

your tonalities are... I'm looking forward to trying them!

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision <mailto:CDTobie%40colorvision.com> .com
www.colorvision.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/7/06 4:21:04 PM, wblackwell@... writes:


> Is there such a thing as liquid graphite? Talking about low dynamic 
> range, that would be an amazing "inkset" if anyone built it. It would 
> be silvery and shiny.  Man.  You got me thinking.
> 

Sure, it should be no harder to suspend in inkjet ink than carbon... and long 
lived as well. 

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm very much interested in trying out the brand new PiezoTone K6/7
Carbon Sepia set and have a printer ready to put them in. From what
I've heard from someone who is using them they are close to a Platinum
quality, extremely smooth, and do not resemble the old Piezo Carbon
Sepia quads, but rather a completely different hue, that can work well
either alone or in combination with the neutral K6/7. I don't think
this is something you'll do with color pigs, but who knows these days.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell
<wblackwell@...> wrote:

>
> Is there such a thing as liquid graphite? Talking about low dynamic  
> range, that would be an amazing "inkset" if anyone built it. It would  
> be silvery and shiny.  Man.  You got me thinking.
> 
> Walker
>

John, I was hoping for a larger variety of ink set at the print off. I
haven't seen any of them (K6 Sepia) and Inkjet mall didn't make a showing at
Photo Expo. 

 

Eric

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john dean
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 4:01 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] B&W Print Off comments

 

I'm very much interested in trying out the brand new PiezoTone K6/7
Carbon Sepia set and have a printer ready to put them in. From what
I've heard from someone who is using them they are close to a Platinum
quality, extremely smooth, and do not resemble the old Piezo Carbon
Sepia quads, but rather a completely different hue, that can work well
either alone or in combination with the neutral K6/7. I don't think
this is something you'll do with color pigs, but who knows these days.

John





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I know. Jon was in and out of there one of the days and I missed
meeting him. He is evidently deep into his project of producing these
massive, custom mixed inkjet prints of that Ashes And Snow work -
http://ashesandsnow.org/en/portfolio/. He has a special studio set up
in NY just to do this extremely subtle split tone oriented
exhibition/portfolio output. You gotta admire that about him, he's out
there in the trenches doing the kind of work we're doing, only better. 

But I too would have loved to see the new developments in the "sepia"
set, which is closer to a silvery kind of warm tone from what I've
heard, and the spit tone set, which I'm thinking about reversing, with
cool shadows and warm highlights.

They should have been there. I guess he can't be everywhere at once,
but they should have sent someone.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen
Photo " <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> John, I was hoping for a larger variety of ink set at the print off. I
> haven't seen any of them (K6 Sepia) and Inkjet mall didn't make a
showing at
> Photo Expo. 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214-827-8301
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
>  
> 
> Skype : ejprinter
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
john dean

> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 4:01 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] B&W Print Off comments
> 
>  
> 
> I'm very much interested in trying out the brand new PiezoTone K6/7
> Carbon Sepia set and have a printer ready to put them in. From what
> I've heard from someone who is using them they are close to a Platinum
> quality, extremely smooth, and do not resemble the old Piezo Carbon
> Sepia quads, but rather a completely different hue, that can work well
> either alone or in combination with the neutral K6/7. I don't think
> this is something you'll do with color pigs, but who knows these days.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> Is there such a thing as liquid graphite?
> 

>Sure, it should be no harder to suspend in inkjet ink than carbon...

Graphite is carbon.  The atoms are arranged in plates.  That is where the
shininess can come from and why it has good lubricating properties.  Our
inksets may be graphite.  I have not found enough on the carbon that is used
to tell.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> For those of us who did not make it, following this thread might be a
> little better if we can see the test image that was used and possibly
> making available for download so we can print it to see how we
> do, ...to compare to comments being made.
> Mark
> 
> On Nov 7, 2006, at 3:40 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:
> 
> > I agree. I think we all have ways to "optimize" our systems and color
> > manage them. I wasn't expecting everything to be the same for the A
> > prints though I was a little surprised. I was most interested in 3
> > things on the technical end.

I've noticed that many posts talk about using PrintFix Pro 2 to gain an
extreme level of control over print output/consistency. I wonder if anyone
has used the "Pulse" by X-Rite to optimize prints, both color and Black and
White? What drives my curiosity is the fact that I already own the X-Rite
DTP-94 "puck" user for monitor calibration. I thought I'd read that that
sensor was the heart of the "Pulse", which could mean I'd save some $$$$ if
I can buy the Pulse without the sensor?

Thanks in advance! Alan

And you're still limiting yourself to white paper!!

gar

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Walker
Blackwell
  Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 2:15 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] B&W Print Off comments


  Is there such a thing as liquid graphite? Talking about low dynamic
  range, that would be an amazing "inkset" if anyone built it. It would
  be silvery and shiny. Man. You got me thinking.

  Walker


  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I asked the Hahnemuhle guys at the Expo why they didn't make a nice
really warm paper for us. They said that if there was a demand for
that they would be making it. Oh well, don't get your hopes up.
Personally I'm laying down color ultrachrome tone on my paper and
printing on top of that to match an Arches etching paper for a client.
What a drag...and so unnecessary. 

john


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary W. Weaver"
<garww@...> wrote:

>
> And you're still limiting yourself to white paper!!
> 
> gar
> 
> 
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Walker
> Blackwell
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 2:15 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] B&W Print Off comments
> 
> 
>   Is there such a thing as liquid graphite? Talking about low dynamic
>   range, that would be an amazing "inkset" if anyone built it. It would
>   be silvery and shiny. Man. You got me thinking.
> 
>   Walker
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Kearney"
<alan_kearney@...> wrote:

> has used the "Pulse" by X-Rite to optimize prints, both color and
Black and
> White? What drives my curiosity is the fact that I already own the
X-Rite
> DTP-94 "puck" user for monitor calibration. I thought I'd read that that
> sensor was the heart of the "Pulse", which could mean I'd save some
$$$$ if
> I can buy the Pulse without the sensor?
> 


No, that is not correct. The DTP94 (Optix XR) is for monitors only and
lacks the light source to measure papers (among other things lacking).
The Pulse is a system built from the DTP20 spectrophotometer and the
Pulse software. The DTP20 is a very good spectrophotometer, but it has
some draw backs that make it difficult to use for a B/W only workflow.
It works fine for a color workflow. For an all B/W workflow like with
the Cone K7 inks, I would recommend the i1Pro spectrophotometer.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Graphite is carbon.  The atoms are arranged in plates.  That is
where the
> shininess can come from and why it has good lubricating properties.  Our
> inksets may be graphite.  I have not found enough on the carbon that
is used
> to tell.
> 


Bucky Balls, that's what we need....

Greg,

Where were you? You should have driven down from upstate. You could
have seen all the new things to buy that you can't afford.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> 
> > Graphite is carbon.  The atoms are arranged in plates.  That is
> where the
> > shininess can come from and why it has good lubricating
properties.  Our

> > inksets may be graphite.  I have not found enough on the carbon that
> is used
> > to tell.
> > 
> 
> 
> Bucky Balls, that's what we need....
>

I put 4 shots from the gathering up on an ftp site

 

ftp.ericneilsenphotography.com <ftp://ftp.ericneilsenphotography.com/> 

user name eicne_papers_info

password guest

 

These include version A on the wall and version B on the table and on a
string.

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/7/06 5:31:42 PM, e.neilsen2@... writes:


> John, I was hoping for a larger variety of ink set at the print off. I
> haven't seen any of them (K6 Sepia) and Inkjet mall didn't make a showing at
> Photo Expo.
> 
Yes, I missed having Jon Cone at the show; he's my traditional source of 
post-show chocolate covered expresso beans, to make it through the 
breakdown/packup process. Certainly Inkjet Mall wasn't the largest company to be 
conspicuously absent, but one of the long time participants that were noticable by not 
being there. And Kodak! Who would have dreamed ten years ago, of a PhotoPlus (by 
whatever name) where Kodak had only a 10 by 10 foot booth, and a show strategy 
composed solely of giving away film.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/7/06 6:10:39 PM, deanwork2003@... writes:


> You gotta admire that about him, he's out
> there in the trenches doing the kind of work we're doing, only better.
> 

Yes, that is always one thing to keep in mind. At any point in time since 
digital output has become a reality, Jon Cone has consistantly been one of the 
finest of the fine art black and white printers. As the saying goes, he's 
forgotten more than most of us have ever learned.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/7/06 6:28:29 PM, paul.roark@... writes:


> Graphite is carbon.  The atoms are arranged in plates.
> 
Next we can ponder BuckeyBall pigments... <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/7/06 6:34:37 PM, alan_kearney@... writes:


> I've noticed that many posts talk about using PrintFix Pro 2 to gain an
> extreme level of control over print output/consistency.
> 
Thats meant it two ways: one is to run the new PrintFIX PRO 2.0 process to 
build color profiles augmented with lots of extra gray and near gray data. Thats 
for standard color inksets, and will work best with the newer printers (Epson 
2400 and beyond, Canon iPF printers, HP Z 3100 printers). The other is to use 
PrintFIX PRO 2.0 to export files for use in RIPs and other applications for 
specialty black and white printing. There are export modes for QTR 
linearization format, and CreateICC format, as well as more general Lab and Visual Density 
export capabilities as tab deliniated text files.

>  I wonder if anyone
> has used the "Pulse" by X-Rite to optimize prints, both color and Black and
> White?
> 
That would require some form of profiling software for ICC profiles, and some 
form of export software for specialty B&W uses. The lower priced Pulse 
bundles offer fairly simple ICC profiling software that builds very good profiles 
for color, but does not have the special features and functions for black and 
white that PrintFIX PRO offers. Even at higher pricepoints with Monaco Profiler 
versions, it doesn't offer specialized black and white; that hasn't been 
around very long. Others might be able to comment on what export capabilities the 
Pulse software offers, as I haven't looked at it recently.

>  What drives my curiosity is the fact that I already own the X-Rite
> DTP-94 "puck" user for monitor calibration. I thought I'd read that that
> sensor was the heart of the "Pulse", which could mean I'd save some $$$$ if
> I can buy the Pulse without the sensor?
> 
No, your DTP-94 is not in any way related to printed patch reading, you would 
need an seperate device for that. The Pulse will be discontinued shortly, so 
there may be special pricing available on it, but the most affordable separate 
device at the moment is PrintFIX PRO.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/7/06 9:59:40 PM, deanwork2003@... writes:


> I asked the Hahnemuhle guys at the Expo why they didn't make a nice
> really warm paper for us. They said that if there was a demand for
> that they would be making it. Oh well, don't get your hopes up.
> Personally I'm laying down color ultrachrome tone on my paper and
> printing on top of that to match an Arches etching paper for a client.
> What a drag...and so unnecessary.
> 
Did you check the tone of Entrada Natural at the Moab booth?

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

*********************************************************s
I've noticed that many posts talk about using PrintFix Pro 2 to gain an
extreme level of control over print output/consistency. I wonder if anyone
has used the "Pulse" by X-Rite to optimize prints, both color and Black and
White? What drives my curiosity is the fact that I already own the X-Rite
DTP-94 "puck" user for monitor calibration. I thought I'd read that that
sensor was the heart of the "Pulse", which could mean I'd save some $$$$ if
I can buy the Pulse without the sensor?

Thanks in advance! Alan
*************************************************************

Alan
I use a Pulse to profile 5 different printers with a range of papers, and it 
always gives close to perfect results. It was bought before the Printfix Pro 
was introduced, but I think I would still prefer the Pulse
now, although if I had only one or two printers to profile I would probably 
go for the Printfix.
Like Chris, I have always used ICC profiles for Black and White (greys are 
colours too). At home I'm more critical than at work so I use the free 
X-Rite Colorport software - see
http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=719&Industry=1&Segment=12&Action=Support

With this I  produce and read a 256 step grayscale target , and then edit 
the Pulse profile to correct any deviation from neutral. You can generate 
any target for any X-Rite or G-M device by feeding in a text file of RGB 
values. It has a custom setting  so you could do one for the Printfix as 
well although you would not be able to read it. The only drawback is that it 
only outputs Lab or XYZ values - if anyone knows an Excel formula for 
converting these to RGB for a given colour temp and space let me know!

Bran Price

www.secalis.co.uk

Brian,

For LAB to RGB I use Bruce's calculator
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?ColorCalculator.html

Mike


On 08/11/06, Brian <brian@...> wrote:
>
>   *********************************************************s
> I've noticed that many posts talk about using PrintFix Pro 2 to gain an
> extreme level of control over print output/consistency. I wonder if anyone
> has used the "Pulse" by X-Rite to optimize prints, both color and Black
> and
> White? What drives my curiosity is the fact that I already own the X-Rite
> DTP-94 "puck" user for monitor calibration. I thought I'd read that that
> sensor was the heart of the "Pulse", which could mean I'd save some $$$$
> if
> I can buy the Pulse without the sensor?
>
> Thanks in advance! Alan
> *************************************************************
>
> Alan
> I use a Pulse to profile 5 different printers with a range of papers, and
> it
> always gives close to perfect results. It was bought before the Printfix
> Pro
> was introduced, but I think I would still prefer the Pulse
> now, although if I had only one or two printers to profile I would
> probably
> go for the Printfix.
> Like Chris, I have always used ICC profiles for Black and White (greys are
>
> colours too). At home I'm more critical than at work so I use the free
> X-Rite Colorport software - see
>
> http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=719&Industry=1&Segment=12&Action=Support
>
> With this I produce and read a 256 step grayscale target , and then edit
> the Pulse profile to correct any deviation from neutral. You can generate
> any target for any X-Rite or G-M device by feeding in a text file of RGB
> values. It has a custom setting so you could do one for the Printfix as
> well although you would not be able to read it. The only drawback is that
> it
> only outputs Lab or XYZ values - if anyone knows an Excel formula for
> converting these to RGB for a given colour temp and space let me know!
>
> Bran Price
>
> www.secalis.co.uk
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

*************************************************

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael King
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Optimize print output tools
Brian,

For LAB to RGB I use Bruce's calculator
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?ColorCalculator.html

Mike

*************************************************

Mike

That's what I do use but I have to convert each step manually. What I'm 
looking for is a formula I can use in an Excel spreadsheet to convert 
automatically.

Brian

Did you see the Photo Rag Natural?
Mark

On Nov 7, 2006, at 9:46 PM, john dean wrote:

> I asked the Hahnemuhle guys at the Expo why they didn't make a nice
> really warm paper for us. They said that if there was a demand for
> that they would be making it.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, but I wouldn't consider that warm, but rather natural cotton
color like the Berger, Moab, and similar papers, which are all very
close to William Turner. I've been reproducing a number of lithos and
etchings lately that were printed on really warm Arches and similar
toned fine printmaking papers and there is nothing close to that on
the inkjet market that I've seen.

John





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@...> wrote:

>
> Did you see the Photo Rag Natural?
> Mark
> 
> On Nov 7, 2006, at 9:46 PM, john dean wrote:
> 
> > I asked the Hahnemuhle guys at the Expo why they didn't make a nice
> > really warm paper for us. They said that if there was a demand for
> > that they would be making it.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Have you tried printing the entire sheet with any color you want and  
then reprint on top of that?
Mark

On Nov 8, 2006, at 8:45 AM, john dean wrote:

> Yes, but I wouldn't consider that warm, but rather natural cotton
> color like the Berger, Moab, and similar papers, which are all very
> close to William Turner. I've been reproducing a number of lithos and
> etchings lately that were printed on really warm Arches and similar
> toned fine printmaking papers and there is nothing close to that on
> the inkjet market that I've seen.
>
> John
>
>

Yes. That is exactly what I am doing now, laying down a warm tone with
Ultrachrome RGB and then printing the etchings out of greyscale and
QTR on top of that. We talked about that before. It works quite well
once you find the tone you are after, and you can save that canvas to
use in the future, but double printing sure slows me down. However, it
does wake me up to all the potential of changing the ground color to
exactly what you may want for any given situation.  

I guess I could put inkaid on the warm printmaking paper and make my
own..:-), might just try that. Still haven't used that stuff on
anything yet.

John

 >
> Have you tried printing the entire sheet with any color you want and  
> then reprint on top of that?
> Mark

In a message dated 11/8/06 8:49:22 AM, deanwork2003@... writes:


> Yes, but I wouldn't consider that warm, but rather natural cotton
> color like the Berger, Moab, and similar papers, which are all very
> close to William Turner. I've been reproducing a number of lithos and
> etchings lately that were printed on really warm Arches and similar
> toned fine printmaking papers and there is nothing close to that on
> the inkjet market that I've seen.
> 

So what you are looking for isn't cream, its vanilla.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/8/06 9:36:23 AM, deanwork2003@... writes:


> Yes. That is exactly what I am doing now, laying down a warm tone with
> Ultrachrome RGB and then printing the etchings out of greyscale and
> QTR on top of that. We talked about that before. It works quite well
> once you find the tone you are after, and you can save that canvas to
> use in the future, but double printing sure slows me down.
> 

Wow, that certainly sounds like an arguement for PrintFIX PRO, since it 
allows any combination of color and black and white to be printed at the same time. 
So you could print your background color and your B&W print simultaneously, 
and cut out the rerun... If everything else met your needs, that would be a 
real timesaver.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CDTobie@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/7/06 6:28:29 PM, paul.roark@... 
> <mailto:paul.roark%40verizon.net> writes:
>
> > Graphite is carbon.  The atoms are arranged in plates.
> >
> Next we can ponder BuckeyBall pigments... <G>
>







Yep...but rather than get all tied up with whether we're using either of 
the two crystalline forms of carbon, graphite or diamond, let's just 
stick with the good ol' amorphous carbon....carbon black or soot. 
Caveman used it at Lascaux and it's still going strong in pigment inks. 
Has fair longevity. <G>

Basil

> 
> Messages in this topic 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/80937;_ylc=X3oDMTM2aWs0NHJ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDE5MTgyBG1zZ0lkAzgwOTkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE2Mjk2ODExNAR0cGNJZAM4MDkzNw--> 
> (41) 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZWpmN2tsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDE5MTgyBG1zZ0lkAzgwOTkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTE2Mjk2ODExNA--?act=reply&messageNum=80990>

Light brownish, like the many warm printmaking papers that have been
made forever. It's no big deal though. Like I said, I can make my own
if need be.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:

>
> 
> In a message dated 11/8/06 8:49:22 AM, deanwork2003@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Yes, but I wouldn't consider that warm, but rather natural cotton
> > color like the Berger, Moab, and similar papers, which are all very
> > close to William Turner. I've been reproducing a number of lithos and
> > etchings lately that were printed on really warm Arches and similar
> > toned fine printmaking papers and there is nothing close to that on
> > the inkjet market that I've seen.
> > 
> 
> So what you are looking for isn't cream, its vanilla.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

CDTobie@aol. <mailto:CDTobie%40aol.com> com

Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 2:51 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] B&W Print Off comments

In a message dated 11/7/06 2:15:12 PM, e.neilsen2@worldnet
<mailto:e.neilsen2%40worldnet.att.net> .att.net writes:

> David, And these are today's ( as of Saturday) Dmax. Will all of the black
> have an equal fade? (shhhhh _ just a wee bit) .
> 
They are all latest generation pigment inksets, Henry Wilhelm has had most
of 
them in his torture chamber...



 

David,  Unless there has been a change at Ink jet Mall, Cone was providing
us, Peizo users, with Fade data and Dmax readings. While the fade amount was
small, there is a difference in the Photo

Black and the museum black that they sell, with Photo black achieving a
higher initial Dmax but fading over time to less than that of museum black.
One more option in the boxes at the bottom of  the prints : ) 

 

 

Eric 

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]