Digital BW, The Print

I have been testing/experimenting with Ink Jet papers for
somewhile....as Clayton coined..."the Paper Chase"  In general, matte
papers and the typical RC Ilford Pearl type papers seem to follow a
general pattern and stay more or less in a price range that seems
appropriate to cotton papers or RC mass produced papers.  I fully
appreciate the expense of cotton as a fibre base...so gladly accept
the higher price.  And the RC papers are remarkably good in
general...with the exception of the Mass Market kind of a plasticy
finish....but hey, what do you expect for a cheap paper???

I am confused about the F Type papers.  The coating and results are
not all that different than RC papers..and most of them are Alpha
Cellulose.  Yea, sure they are better than RC...but are they really
worth the significantly extra expense???

  This question came up again because I recently bought a test pack of
Legion/Moab which includes their "new" Colorado fiber.  I am appalled
how expensive this sheet is in relation to the cheap feel and the
apparent low quality control.  Light, curls like a SOB, and it has all
sorts of surface coating flaws.  I have looked at em all, and frankly
think the Innova F type are quite good...but  expensive IMHO for an
alpha cellulose base. 

Soooo...my question is...why is this stuff so expensive???  Might as
well be using precious metals?  I used to pay less and think I still
could pay less for Gelatin Silver. Of course, I understand the waste
and chemical expense with Gelative Silver...but I just cannot
understand why these so called Gelatin Silver look alikes are so
overpriced for such a low cost base.

I perceive this F type overpricing as just a market ploy.  Am I incorrect?

By the way,in testing the Legion test pack... I did find that the
Lasal Lustre is a lovely, less plastic looking paper...candidly it
tests much better than their so called top of the line Colorado...and
it lays flat as a pancake.  Similar Dmax, better hand, similar color.
 Does anyone else have experience with Lasal RC papers.  Kind of weird
when you look at em close...translucent...but the prints are quite lovely.

My wish is for a great general purpose alpha cellulose Ftype paper ,
similar consistency of RC type papers with a less mechanical look, and
one that is realistically priced in relation to the true costs of
making alpha cellulose base ( this should be relatively cheap...should
be lower than cotton, right???)...and a paper that is flat after
printing...hey is this tooo much to ask????

Thanks for your impressions!



Phil

I can't believe nobody's responding to this entry. Finding the right 
paper for various applications is so important! I've just received a 
packet of 11x17 Innova FibaPrint Semi-matte, but I've not tried it yet. 
The surface looks nice - a smooth soft sheen, not a shine, and not a 
texture. I'll be using it in an R2400, so it will be a few days before 
I bother switching out the blacks from matt to photo. I'm hoping this 
will be my premium B&W paper. But yeah, the price is high. I'm hoping 
it's got the look and feel of the old Oriental air-dried silver gelatin 
prints I used to make. 

My everyday paper is Inkpress Matt Plus 80. Acid-free, lignin-free, but 
fairly bright, so I assume the OBAs may yellow over time, but I'm not 
going to worry about it too much. 

The nicest surface appearance in non-glossy papers I've used are the 
semi-glossy papers by Mitsubishi and others, but the paper has a 
squeaky feel that is very unpleasant, plus it's a little too thin. But 
I have to admit I used those on dye printers, not pigment printers.

Jimbeaujack, It may not be a question of being disinterested in the
question, but rather a question of time. The great paper chase can be an all
consuming event if you let it. There are many here that are trying to get
product out the door within a reasonable time frame. There are others that
tinker. I like to settle on a few choice papers and concentrate on images;
trying new papers every once in a while. 

 

As to the cost of the papers, cheap paper cost little to make and high
quality well coated paper does take some time and money. The look of the
Oriental air dried gloss was a nice look as was the Agfa 118 semi matte. 

 

Just a quick thought,

Eric

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
jimbeaujack
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 1:15 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Question about perceptions

 

I can't believe nobody's responding to this entry. Finding the right 
paper for various applications is so important! I've just received a 
packet of 11x17 Innova FibaPrint Semi-matte, but I've not tried it yet. 
The surface looks nice - a smooth soft sheen, not a shine, and not a 
texture. I'll be using it in an R2400, so it will be a few days before 
I bother switching out the blacks from matt to photo. I'm hoping this 
will be my premium B&W paper. But yeah, the price is high. I'm hoping 
it's got the look and feel of the old Oriental air-dried silver gelatin 
prints I used to make. 

My everyday paper is Inkpress Matt Plus 80. Acid-free, lignin-free, but 
fairly bright, so I assume the OBAs may yellow over time, but I'm not 
going to worry about it too much. 

The nicest surface appearance in non-glossy papers I've used are the 
semi-glossy papers by Mitsubishi and others, but the paper has a 
squeaky feel that is very unpleasant, plus it's a little too thin. But 
I have to admit I used those on dye printers, not pigment printers. 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Eric

I must politely disagree with your point here....  

I used to use Oriental when it was Freestyle's bargain paper...it was
really cheap in the late 60s and early 70s...much cheaper than Kodak
or Agfa.  It was my standard in college...and I was as poor as a
church mouse back then.  Even after Ansel gave it his blessing in the
mid 70s...Oriental was not much more costly than the rest....Ansel was
also buying it from Freestyle.  Only in more recent years did Oriental
assume a high priced Deluxe status...presumably because Ansel's prints
on it were selling for funny money.

I raised the question about these fibre look alike ink jet papers,
because I cannot understand the huge discrepancy between a top of the
line RC  and/or cotton paper and an Alpha Cellulose inkjet paper.  The
coatings cannot be all that different...are they???  

I cannot understand why a more costly material cotton fibre based
paper should cost significantly less that a cheaper to produce
material Alpha Cellulose based paper  other than a marketing hoax. 
There are no precious metals involved here..just marketing...  Yea,
yea...coating may take some tweaking and R&D, but certainly coating is
the least expensive factor here...the paper base certainly is the most
costly???right????  Please correct me if I am wrong.

As to getting stuff out of the door, we all want to be more
productive.  This includes having quality materials that we can count
on.  And I certainly appreciate paying a bit more for a bit better. 

However, just because a product is more costly does not insure better
IMHO. 

Am I the only one on this group that perceives these alpha cellulose
Air Dryed papers as overpriced?  I am just questioning the significant
difference in cost between inkjet paper types...and I am enough of a
cynic to have a notion that I am being ripped off by a marketing con.

Don't get me wrong... some of these new Fibre lookalike papers are
quite lovely.  The Innova Ftype Semi Matte is frankly superb...it just
hurts to use it liberally. 

Curiously, I was able to buy several boxes of same paper a number of
months back at Adorama for about half the price of Shades of Paper.  
 I note now that Adorama is towing the line and selling more or less
same price.  My assumption here is that Adorama has been forced to
hold prices at a certain level by the supplier/producer of the paper.
 I am in a different industry, but this kind of price/profit fixing is
pretty common in all industries..and difficult to combat from a
consumer level...but my strong suspicion here is that the paper
industry is very guilty of doing this  with these high end papers.  

Phil



 
>
> Jimbeaujack, It may not be a question of being disinterested in the
> question, but rather a question of time. The great paper chase can
be an all
> consuming event if you let it. There are many here that are trying
to get
> product out the door within a reasonable time frame. There are
others that
> tinker. I like to settle on a few choice papers and concentrate on
images;
> trying new papers every once in a while. 
> 
>  
> 
> As to the cost of the papers, cheap paper cost little to make and high
> quality well coated paper does take some time and money. The look of the
> Oriental air dried gloss was a nice look as was the Agfa 118 semi
matte. 

> 
>  
> 
> Just a quick thought,
> 
> Eric
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214-827-8301
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
>  
> 
> Skype : ejprinter
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> jimbeaujack
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 1:15 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Question about perceptions
> 
>  
> 
> I can't believe nobody's responding to this entry. Finding the right 
> paper for various applications is so important! I've just received a 
> packet of 11x17 Innova FibaPrint Semi-matte, but I've not tried it yet. 
> The surface looks nice - a smooth soft sheen, not a shine, and not a 
> texture. I'll be using it in an R2400, so it will be a few days before 
> I bother switching out the blacks from matt to photo. I'm hoping this 
> will be my premium B&W paper. But yeah, the price is high. I'm hoping 
> it's got the look and feel of the old Oriental air-dried silver gelatin 
> prints I used to make. 
> 
> My everyday paper is Inkpress Matt Plus 80. Acid-free, lignin-free, but 
> fairly bright, so I assume the OBAs may yellow over time, but I'm not 
> going to worry about it too much. 
> 
> The nicest surface appearance in non-glossy papers I've used are the 
> semi-glossy papers by Mitsubishi and others, but the paper has a 
> squeaky feel that is very unpleasant, plus it's a little too thin. But 
> I have to admit I used those on dye printers, not pigment printers. 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Phil, I don't doubt a certain amount of price control takes place but I
suspect that it is not done by agreements reached in back rooms. There have
been papers that have been tested by members of this forum that were just
about set for release and then????  Developing a coating to match the ink
sets that are out there is a far cry from making silver gelatin paper. You
may also remember that Honda motorcycles used to be really inexpensive too
until Harley lobbied congress to save their company through tariffs. Much
has changed in the business practices since the 60's and 70's and while
there is reason to believe that Ansel's use of Oriental may have contributed
to it's higher price, other factors were at work.  When Oriental made the
paper push, there had already been a number of years of successful paper
production with multiple factories involved. The ink jet industry is still
quite young when it comes to the ink and papers being used. I'd also look
into spoilage  due to packaging, shipping, freight cost for reason that
these products pinch the wallet. 

 

I live across town from Red River in Dallas. My cost for their paper is
quite good and it arrives after traveling in an AC environment.  

 

You see it all the time on this list; The ultimate Dmax Chase or Ultimate
Color Gamut chase, etc.   Paper companies are either driving this or are
trying to keep up with demand. Either way they are constantly trying to
deliver a "better" product; well establish companies such as Hahnemuehle
still have failed batches. So if coating paper was really that easy, I'd
think that we would all see cleaner, more trouble free printing but we
don't.  

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
brouwerkent
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 12:50 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Question about perceptions...clarification

 

Hello Eric

I must politely disagree with your point here.... 

I used to use Oriental when it was Freestyle's bargain paper...it was
really cheap in the late 60s and early 70s...much cheaper than Kodak
or Agfa. It was my standard in college...and I was as poor as a
church mouse back then. Even after Ansel gave it his blessing in the
mid 70s...Oriental was not much more costly than the rest....Ansel was
also buying it from Freestyle. Only in more recent years did Oriental
assume a high priced Deluxe status...presumably because Ansel's prints
on it were selling for funny money.

I raised the question about these fibre look alike ink jet papers,
because I cannot understand the huge discrepancy between a top of the
line RC and/or cotton paper and an Alpha Cellulose inkjet paper. The
coatings cannot be all that different...are they??? 

I cannot understand why a more costly material cotton fibre based
paper should cost significantly less that a cheaper to produce
material Alpha Cellulose based paper other than a marketing hoax. 
There are no precious metals involved here..just marketing... Yea,
yea...coating may take some tweaking and R&D, but certainly coating is
the least expensive factor here...the paper base certainly is the most
costly???right???? Please correct me if I am wrong.

As to getting stuff out of the door, we all want to be more
productive. This includes having quality materials that we can count
on. And I certainly appreciate paying a bit more for a bit better. 

However, just because a product is more costly does not insure better
IMHO. 

Am I the only one on this group that perceives these alpha cellulose
Air Dryed papers as overpriced? I am just questioning the significant
difference in cost between inkjet paper types...and I am enough of a
cynic to have a notion that I am being ripped off by a marketing con.

Don't get me wrong... some of these new Fibre lookalike papers are
quite lovely. The Innova Ftype Semi Matte is frankly superb...it just
hurts to use it liberally. 

Curiously, I was able to buy several boxes of same paper a number of
months back at Adorama for about half the price of Shades of Paper. 
I note now that Adorama is towing the line and selling more or less
same price. My assumption here is that Adorama has been forced to
hold prices at a certain level by the supplier/producer of the paper.
I am in a different industry, but this kind of price/profit fixing is
pretty common in all industries..and difficult to combat from a
consumer level...but my strong suspicion here is that the paper
industry is very guilty of doing this with these high end papers. 

Phil

>
> Jimbeaujack, It may not be a question of being disinterested in the
> question, but rather a question of time. The great paper chase can
be an all
> consuming event if you let it. There are many here that are trying
to get
> product out the door within a reasonable time frame. There are
others that
> tinker. I like to settle on a few choice papers and concentrate on
images;
> trying new papers every once in a while. 
> 
> 
> 
> As to the cost of the papers, cheap paper cost little to make and high
> quality well coated paper does take some time and money. The look of the
> Oriental air dried gloss was a nice look as was the Agfa 118 semi
matte. 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a quick thought,
> 
> Eric
> 

.

 
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=3702311/grpspId=1705019182/msgId
=87294/stime=1188453027/nc1=3848618/nc2=4507179/nc3=4025291> 
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Phil, I agree that these new f-type papers are very, very expensive.
Top of the heap in price, or close to it. I don't have a full
explanation as to why they are priced that high, but am guessing that
they're relatively new to the market and the target audience is small.

Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic. The cost of inkjet coated papers can be 
broken down in to several key areas. 1. base 2. coating 3. converting/waste 4. packaging.

1. Bases vary widely in price due to the materials and processes used to make them. For 
example a machine made RC base is extremely inexpensive. The price can fluctuate based 
on the price of oil. Alpha-cellulose bases can vary in cost by up to 100% due to the 
varying qualities and weights. Cotton bases can vary wildly due to the differences in 
machinemade vs mouldmade and the quality of both the cotton and weight or amount 
used. But in general, the base is a relatively low cost when compared to the coating.

2. Coatings are by far the most expensive part of the process and can vary in cost by 
process and application. RC papers are relatively easy to coat because not only is the base 
uniform (no natural variation) but the process can all be done in line in one step and at 
neck breaking speeds. The most expensive product to coat are the fiber gloss type papers. 
Not only are the bases non-uniform because of natural variations, the papers require 3 
separate coatings which means 3 passes through the coating machine which is by far the 
most expensive part of the process. The passes are also done at lower speeds which 
equates to even more time on the machine. The coatings themselves are not nearly as 
expensive as the machine time and expense.

3. Converting and waste play a large roll in the cost of products. If you compare the 
cost/sq inch of most 13x19 papers vs 8.5x11 you'll notice that they are much more 
expense because 13x19 results in more waste. Also, different papers are more sensitive 
and thus incur different wastage due to the handling in the process. Unfortunately the 
fiber gloss papers are one of the hardest to convert.

4. Packaging costs are fairly fixed and don't play in to the pricing differentials.

Now, taking all the above in to consideration, an interesting side note. The fiber based 
products we produce are also the lowest margin products in our range. So while the price 
of this product is high, we unfortunately make much less on it than some of our other 
ranges. But sometimes having the right paper especially for exhibition purposes is the 
deciding factor as is the case with our fiber based products. If we could produce it for less 
we would love to as this would mean an overall decrease in the cost and price for 
everyone.

The final consideration is the size and volume of a market. RC papers make up the bulk of 
the consumer market and there is a lot to be said about the efficiencies of scale. Fiber 
based products are and will most likely always be a very small niche market futher 
complicating the pricing.

Hope that helps shed some light on the pricing of paper.

Sincerely,

Gregory Schern
'Mr Moab'

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "brouwerkent" <philip@...> 
wrote:

>
> I have been testing/experimenting with Ink Jet papers for
> somewhile....as Clayton coined..."the Paper Chase"  In general, matte
> papers and the typical RC Ilford Pearl type papers seem to follow a
> general pattern and stay more or less in a price range that seems
> appropriate to cotton papers or RC mass produced papers.  I fully
> appreciate the expense of cotton as a fibre base...so gladly accept
> the higher price.  And the RC papers are remarkably good in
> general...with the exception of the Mass Market kind of a plasticy
> finish....but hey, what do you expect for a cheap paper???
> 
> I am confused about the F Type papers.  The coating and results are
> not all that different than RC papers..and most of them are Alpha
> Cellulose.  Yea, sure they are better than RC...but are they really
> worth the significantly extra expense???
> 
>   This question came up again because I recently bought a test pack of
> Legion/Moab which includes their "new" Colorado fiber.  I am appalled
> how expensive this sheet is in relation to the cheap feel and the
> apparent low quality control.  Light, curls like a SOB, and it has all
> sorts of surface coating flaws.  I have looked at em all, and frankly
> think the Innova F type are quite good...but  expensive IMHO for an
> alpha cellulose base. 
> 
> Soooo...my question is...why is this stuff so expensive???  Might as
> well be using precious metals?  I used to pay less and think I still
> could pay less for Gelatin Silver. Of course, I understand the waste
> and chemical expense with Gelative Silver...but I just cannot
> understand why these so called Gelatin Silver look alikes are so
> overpriced for such a low cost base.
> 
> I perceive this F type overpricing as just a market ploy.  Am I incorrect?
> 
> By the way,in testing the Legion test pack... I did find that the
> Lasal Lustre is a lovely, less plastic looking paper...candidly it
> tests much better than their so called top of the line Colorado...and
> it lays flat as a pancake.  Similar Dmax, better hand, similar color.
>  Does anyone else have experience with Lasal RC papers.  Kind of weird
> when you look at em close...translucent...but the prints are quite lovely.
> 
> My wish is for a great general purpose alpha cellulose Ftype paper ,
> similar consistency of RC type papers with a less mechanical look, and
> one that is realistically priced in relation to the true costs of
> making alpha cellulose base ( this should be relatively cheap...should
> be lower than cotton, right???)...and a paper that is flat after
> printing...hey is this tooo much to ask????
> 
> Thanks for your impressions!
> 
> 
> 
> Phil
>