Digital BW, The Print

Greetings,

Just acquired an Epson 1280, with two sets of Piezograpy BW ICC carts,
the CD, all for $100. Didn't think I should pass that up. The
printer's hardly been used and the carts are in their sealed plastic
envelopes.

Now what.. I see in the docs I'm supposed to use the Color Settings in
Photoshop, but I have Elements and its Color Settings are very
spartan. The docs tell me I can use other imaging software by studying
the settings for Photoshop and using their equivalents in those
applications. I do have QImage... I looked at its menus and I see some
parallels. But I could use some help here... has anyone used Qimage
for this particular Piezography?

I would still use Elements for its other features, cropping, sizing,
etc. but then I would think I could print the PSD files in QImage,
using its color settings instead.

I'm a newbie... lots to learn. Thank you all in advance!

You can use the Piezography ICC with your 1280 and Qimage. Basically,
Jon Cone developed an substitute ICC profile for the printer when
loaded with Piezography quad inks. You have to make sure you use that
ICC profile in Qimage where you can specify color management. I did
some printing that way using my 7000, before I moved to StudioPrint
RIP. I actually still use the quad inks (the last bit in my printer
now). I had OK results. Liked what I output from Photoshop a little
better.

I haven't used Elements, so I can't intelligently advise you what to
do there. I don't believe you have the option to have the program
manage your color for output (like Photoshop), but I could be wrong.

Nemo

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting"
<paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

>
> Greetings,
> 
> Just acquired an Epson 1280, with two sets of Piezograpy BW ICC carts,
> the CD, all for $100. Didn't think I should pass that up. The
> printer's hardly been used and the carts are in their sealed plastic
> envelopes.
> 
> Now what.. I see in the docs I'm supposed to use the Color Settings in
> Photoshop, but I have Elements and its Color Settings are very
> spartan. The docs tell me I can use other imaging software by studying
> the settings for Photoshop and using their equivalents in those
> applications. I do have QImage... I looked at its menus and I see some
> parallels. But I could use some help here... has anyone used Qimage
> for this particular Piezography?
> 
> I would still use Elements for its other features, cropping, sizing,
> etc. but then I would think I could print the PSD files in QImage,
> using its color settings instead.
> 
> I'm a newbie... lots to learn. Thank you all in advance!
>

Thanks Nemo,

How would I get a copy of that profile? I looked at the ICC profiles
on the Piezography BW ICC CD but they all seem to be for paper.

Also, you used quad inks? Doesn't that mean four? But this printer
uses one black cart and one color cart - and the color cart apparently
has five compartments, which can be either the various CMY colors or
five different shades of the black. Gotta warn you all... I'm a real
newbie, so I'm likely to ask some very basic questions here!

As for Photoshop Element's color settings, there are basically only
three choices, and they are between some very generalized settings.
Really not much to work with there, so I think Elements is out of the
question. And I really hate to spend several hundred dollars on
Photoshop just for that feature, I'm aiming for simplicity.

Thanks again,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nemo Niemann"
<nemophoto@...> wrote:

>
> You can use the Piezography ICC with your 1280 and Qimage. Basically,
> Jon Cone developed an substitute ICC profile for the printer when
> loaded with Piezography quad inks. You have to make sure you use that
> ICC profile in Qimage where you can specify color management. I did
> some printing that way using my 7000, before I moved to StudioPrint
> RIP. I actually still use the quad inks (the last bit in my printer
> now). I had OK results. Liked what I output from Photoshop a little
> better.
> 
> I haven't used Elements, so I can't intelligently advise you what to
> do there. I don't believe you have the option to have the program
> manage your color for output (like Photoshop), but I could be wrong.
> 
> Nemo
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting"
> <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >
> > Greetings,
> > 
> > Just acquired an Epson 1280, with two sets of Piezograpy BW ICC carts,
> > the CD, all for $100. Didn't think I should pass that up. The
> > printer's hardly been used and the carts are in their sealed plastic
> > envelopes.
> > 
> > Now what.. I see in the docs I'm supposed to use the Color Settings in
> > Photoshop, but I have Elements and its Color Settings are very
> > spartan. The docs tell me I can use other imaging software by studying
> > the settings for Photoshop and using their equivalents in those
> > applications. I do have QImage... I looked at its menus and I see some
> > parallels. But I could use some help here... has anyone used Qimage
> > for this particular Piezography?
> > 
> > I would still use Elements for its other features, cropping, sizing,
> > etc. but then I would think I could print the PSD files in QImage,
> > using its color settings instead.
> > 
> > I'm a newbie... lots to learn. Thank you all in advance!
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting"
<paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Nemo,
> 
> How would I get a copy of that profile? I looked at the ICC profiles
> on the Piezography BW ICC CD but they all seem to be for paper.

The paper types are the profiles needed for the printer. Essentially,
what you are doing is using the stock Epson 1280 printer profile,
which is modified by using the Piezography ICC profile. The profile is
not unlike a profile created for color printing on a particular type
of paper. In Qimage, for instance (because it sounds as though
Essentials doesn't allow you to do much), you would choose your
printer. Make sure in the driver info you turn off all color
correction -- the ICC profile basically does this for you. Make sure
you've loaded the Piezography profile into your computer's color
management area. Windows has it located in
c:\windows\system32\spool\drivers\color. 

In Qimage, choose the Piezography ICC you want -- for instance
Hahnemuhle William Turner. Of course, you need some of that paper as
well. Qimage will do it's thing, using the Epson driver to output and
the Piezography ICC to control how the inks are used. One thing to
remember: you need to select a paper type in the Epson driver panel. I
believe on your printer Enhance Matte or Photo Quality Inkjet Paper
are the correct settings.

 
> Also, you used quad inks? Doesn't that mean four? But this printer
> uses one black cart and one color cart - and the color cart apparently
> has five compartments, which can be either the various CMY colors or
> five different shades of the black. Gotta warn you all... I'm a real
> newbie, so I'm likely to ask some very basic questions here!

Yes, Quad means four dilutions (shades) of Black pigment ink. In your
case, the 1280 uses six dilutions. Don't worry about that aspect.
Between the Epson driver and ICC profile, they handle whether you are
using four inks, six inks, or more. Good luck. Everyone has to start
somewhere.
 
> As for Photoshop Element's color settings, there are basically only
> three choices, and they are between some very generalized settings.
> Really not much to work with there, so I think Elements is out of the
> question. And I really hate to spend several hundred dollars on
> Photoshop just for that feature, I'm aiming for simplicity.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Paul
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nemo Niemann"
> <nemophoto@> wrote:
> >
> > You can use the Piezography ICC with your 1280 and Qimage. Basically,
> > Jon Cone developed an substitute ICC profile for the printer when
> > loaded with Piezography quad inks. You have to make sure you use that
> > ICC profile in Qimage where you can specify color management. I did
> > some printing that way using my 7000, before I moved to StudioPrint
> > RIP. I actually still use the quad inks (the last bit in my printer
> > now). I had OK results. Liked what I output from Photoshop a little
> > better.
> > 
> > I haven't used Elements, so I can't intelligently advise you what to
> > do there. I don't believe you have the option to have the program
> > manage your color for output (like Photoshop), but I could be wrong.
> > 
> > Nemo
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting"
> > <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > > 
> > > Just acquired an Epson 1280, with two sets of Piezograpy BW ICC
carts,
> > > the CD, all for $100. Didn't think I should pass that up. The
> > > printer's hardly been used and the carts are in their sealed plastic
> > > envelopes.
> > > 
> > > Now what.. I see in the docs I'm supposed to use the Color
Settings in
> > > Photoshop, but I have Elements and its Color Settings are very
> > > spartan. The docs tell me I can use other imaging software by
studying
> > > the settings for Photoshop and using their equivalents in those
> > > applications. I do have QImage... I looked at its menus and I
see some

> > > parallels. But I could use some help here... has anyone used Qimage
> > > for this particular Piezography?
> > > 
> > > I would still use Elements for its other features, cropping, sizing,
> > > etc. but then I would think I could print the PSD files in QImage,
> > > using its color settings instead.
> > > 
> > > I'm a newbie... lots to learn. Thank you all in advance!
> > >
> >
>

Thanks, Nemo,

Right, Photoshop Elements does not have the color management feature
the full version has, it's very limited.

However, I'm studying the docs for QImage and a friend thinks it's
doable. Thanks for your tips,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nemo Niemann"
<nemophoto@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Paul Whiting"
> <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Nemo,
> > 
> > How would I get a copy of that profile? I looked at the ICC profiles
> > on the Piezography BW ICC CD but they all seem to be for paper.
> 
> The paper types are the profiles needed for the printer. Essentially,
> what you are doing is using the stock Epson 1280 printer profile,
> which is modified by using the Piezography ICC profile. The profile is
> not unlike a profile created for color printing on a particular type
> of paper. In Qimage, for instance (because it sounds as though
> Essentials doesn't allow you to do much), you would choose your
> printer. Make sure in the driver info you turn off all color
> correction -- the ICC profile basically does this for you. Make sure
> you've loaded the Piezography profile into your computer's color
> management area. Windows has it located in
> c:\windows\system32\spool\drivers\color. 
> 
> In Qimage, choose the Piezography ICC you want -- for instance
> Hahnemuhle William Turner. Of course, you need some of that paper as
> well. Qimage will do it's thing, using the Epson driver to output and
> the Piezography ICC to control how the inks are used. One thing to
> remember: you need to select a paper type in the Epson driver panel. I
> believe on your printer Enhance Matte or Photo Quality Inkjet Paper
> are the correct settings.
> 
>  
> > Also, you used quad inks? Doesn't that mean four? But this printer
> > uses one black cart and one color cart - and the color cart apparently
> > has five compartments, which can be either the various CMY colors or
> > five different shades of the black. Gotta warn you all... I'm a real
> > newbie, so I'm likely to ask some very basic questions here!
> 
> Yes, Quad means four dilutions (shades) of Black pigment ink. In your
> case, the 1280 uses six dilutions. Don't worry about that aspect.
> Between the Epson driver and ICC profile, they handle whether you are
> using four inks, six inks, or more. Good luck. Everyone has to start
> somewhere.
>  
> > As for Photoshop Element's color settings, there are basically only
> > three choices, and they are between some very generalized settings.
> > Really not much to work with there, so I think Elements is out of the
> > question. And I really hate to spend several hundred dollars on
> > Photoshop just for that feature, I'm aiming for simplicity.
> > 
> > Thanks again,
> > 
> > Paul

I was questioned about this and not having any Elements experience,
did some googling about it. There are settings that effect which space
you are working in, I just don't recall if it tags the files when saving.
For a conversion to an output profile, I would think QImage needs to
know what to convert from.
Do some searching, it sounds doable to me.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting"
<paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Nemo,
> 
> Right, Photoshop Elements does not have the color management feature
> the full version has, it's very limited.
> 
> However, I'm studying the docs for QImage and a friend thinks it's
> doable. Thanks for your tips,
> 
> Paul
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nemo Niemann"
> <nemophoto@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting"
> > <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Nemo,
> > > 
> > > How would I get a copy of that profile? I looked at the ICC profiles
> > > on the Piezography BW ICC CD but they all seem to be for paper.
> > 
> > The paper types are the profiles needed for the printer. Essentially,
> > what you are doing is using the stock Epson 1280 printer profile,
> > which is modified by using the Piezography ICC profile. The profile is
> > not unlike a profile created for color printing on a particular type
> > of paper. In Qimage, for instance (because it sounds as though
> > Essentials doesn't allow you to do much), you would choose your
> > printer. Make sure in the driver info you turn off all color
> > correction -- the ICC profile basically does this for you. Make sure
> > you've loaded the Piezography profile into your computer's color
> > management area. Windows has it located in
> > c:\windows\system32\spool\drivers\color. 
> > 
> > In Qimage, choose the Piezography ICC you want -- for instance
> > Hahnemuhle William Turner. Of course, you need some of that paper as
> > well. Qimage will do it's thing, using the Epson driver to output and
> > the Piezography ICC to control how the inks are used. One thing to
> > remember: you need to select a paper type in the Epson driver panel. I
> > believe on your printer Enhance Matte or Photo Quality Inkjet Paper
> > are the correct settings.
> > 
> >  
> > > Also, you used quad inks? Doesn't that mean four? But this printer
> > > uses one black cart and one color cart - and the color cart
apparently
> > > has five compartments, which can be either the various CMY colors or
> > > five different shades of the black. Gotta warn you all... I'm a real
> > > newbie, so I'm likely to ask some very basic questions here!
> > 
> > Yes, Quad means four dilutions (shades) of Black pigment ink. In your
> > case, the 1280 uses six dilutions. Don't worry about that aspect.
> > Between the Epson driver and ICC profile, they handle whether you are
> > using four inks, six inks, or more. Good luck. Everyone has to start
> > somewhere.
> >  
> > > As for Photoshop Element's color settings, there are basically only
> > > three choices, and they are between some very generalized settings.
> > > Really not much to work with there, so I think Elements is out
of the

> > > question. And I really hate to spend several hundred dollars on
> > > Photoshop just for that feature, I'm aiming for simplicity.
> > > 
> > > Thanks again,
> > > 
> > > Paul
>

Paul Whiting wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> Just acquired an Epson 1280, with two sets of Piezograpy BW ICC carts,
> the CD, all for $100. Didn't think I should pass that up. The
> printer's hardly been used and the carts are in their sealed plastic
> envelopes.
> 
> Now what.. I see in the docs I'm supposed to use the Color Settings in
> Photoshop, but I have Elements and its Color Settings are very
> spartan. The docs tell me I can use other imaging software by studying
> the settings for Photoshop and using their equivalents in those
> applications. I do have QImage... I looked at its menus and I see some
> parallels. But I could use some help here... has anyone used Qimage
> for this particular Piezography?
> 
> I would still use Elements for its other features, cropping, sizing,
> etc. but then I would think I could print the PSD files in QImage,
> using its color settings instead.
> 
> I'm a newbie... lots to learn. Thank you all in advance!

Several things to think off.

Greyscale images is no option in that Elements>Qimage 
workflow. But neutral RGB is.

Elements uses AdobeRGB when best CM is chosen in color 
preferences. It gives you a choice to assign sRGB or 
AdobeRGB to an image that has no profile assigned when 
opened but doesn't give that choice when the image has a 
profile assigned. It will save that file again with the 
profile it originally had or got when opened. Elements is 8 
bit color RGB only which shouldn't be  a problem with Qimage 
as it is 8 bit color RGB only. I do not know what color 
space is recommended for Piezography, AdobeRGB = 2.2 Gamma, 
sRGB = 1.8 Gamma. You better save as a Tiff and not as PSD 
as Qimage isn't that reliable with PSD (for example size 
issues).

Qimage may have a problem with the Piezography profile if 
perceptual rendering + BPC is chosen. At least it has that 
problem with the QTR profiles but I do not know whether they 
are alike on that aspect. If there are issues with low Dmax 
and shades not fitting properly then try some alternatives 
like BPC off and Relative Colormetric with and without BPC. 
For the rest it is as usual: driver CM control off and 
Qimage CM control on.
Be aware that if you do not have an embedded profile in the 
image Qimage will look for EXIF data to make a good guess 
what profile it should be and if no EXIF data is available 
it will assign a profile automatically. sRGB by default but 
that preference can be changed in the color management settings.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Paul Whiting wrote:
> > Greetings,
> > 
> > Just acquired an Epson 1280, with two sets of Piezograpy BW ICC carts,
> > the CD, all for $100. Didn't think I should pass that up. The
> > printer's hardly been used and the carts are in their sealed plastic
> > envelopes.
> > 
> > Now what.. I see in the docs I'm supposed to use the Color Settings in
> > Photoshop, but I have Elements and its Color Settings are very
> > spartan. The docs tell me I can use other imaging software by studying
> > the settings for Photoshop and using their equivalents in those
> > applications. I do have QImage... I looked at its menus and I see some
> > parallels. But I could use some help here... has anyone used Qimage
> > for this particular Piezography?
> > 
> > I would still use Elements for its other features, cropping, sizing,
> > etc. but then I would think I could print the PSD files in QImage,
> > using its color settings instead.
Thanks very much, Ernst, I'm going to have to study your answer. I'm
still learning what all these terms mean!

Paul

> > I'm a newbie... lots to learn. Thank you all in advance!
> 
> Several things to think off.
> 
> Greyscale images is no option in that Elements>Qimage 
> workflow. But neutral RGB is.
> 
> Elements uses AdobeRGB when best CM is chosen in color 
> preferences. It gives you a choice to assign sRGB or 
> AdobeRGB to an image that has no profile assigned when 
> opened but doesn't give that choice when the image has a 
> profile assigned. It will save that file again with the 
> profile it originally had or got when opened. Elements is 8 
> bit color RGB only which shouldn't be  a problem with Qimage 
> as it is 8 bit color RGB only. I do not know what color 
> space is recommended for Piezography, AdobeRGB = 2.2 Gamma, 
> sRGB = 1.8 Gamma. You better save as a Tiff and not as PSD 
> as Qimage isn't that reliable with PSD (for example size 
> issues).
> 
> Qimage may have a problem with the Piezography profile if 
> perceptual rendering + BPC is chosen. At least it has that 
> problem with the QTR profiles but I do not know whether they 
> are alike on that aspect. If there are issues with low Dmax 
> and shades not fitting properly then try some alternatives 
> like BPC off and Relative Colormetric with and without BPC. 
> For the rest it is as usual: driver CM control off and 
> Qimage CM control on.
> Be aware that if you do not have an embedded profile in the 
> image Qimage will look for EXIF data to make a good guess 
> what profile it should be and if no EXIF data is available 
> it will assign a profile automatically. sRGB by default but 
> that preference can be changed in the color management settings.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

>>AdobeRGB = 2.2 Gamma,
> sRGB = 1.8 Gamma.

No, actually both sRGB and AdobeRGB are gamma 2.2, whitepoint 6500K... 
the difference is in the gamut, not the gamma...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision, Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Whiting <paulmwhiting@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezography BW ICC possible with QImage 
instead of Photoshop?






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Paul Whiting wrote:
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Just acquired an Epson 1280, with two sets of Piezograpy BW ICC 
carts,
> > the CD, all for $100. Didn't think I should pass that up. The
> > printer's hardly been used and the carts are in their sealed plastic
> > envelopes.
> >
> > Now what.. I see in the docs I'm supposed to use the Color Settings 
in
> > Photoshop, but I have Elements and its Color Settings are very
> > spartan. The docs tell me I can use other imaging software by 
studying
> > the settings for Photoshop and using their equivalents in those
> > applications. I do have QImage... I looked at its menus and I see 
some
> > parallels. But I could use some help here... has anyone used Qimage
> > for this particular Piezography?
> >
> > I would still use Elements for its other features, cropping, sizing,
> > etc. but then I would think I could print the PSD files in QImage,
> > using its color settings instead.
Thanks very much, Ernst, I'm going to have to study your answer. I'm
still learning what all these terms mean!

Paul

> > I'm a newbie... lots to learn. Thank you all in advance!
>
> Several things to think off.
>
> Greyscale images is no option in that Elements>Qimage
> workflow. But neutral RGB is.
>
> Elements uses AdobeRGB when best CM is chosen in color
> preferences. It gives you a choice to assign sRGB or
> AdobeRGB to an image that has no profile assigned when
> opened but doesn't give that choice when the image has a
> profile assigned. It will save that file again with the
> profile it originally had or got when opened. Elements is 8
> bit color RGB only which shouldn't be  a problem with Qimage
> as it is 8 bit color RGB only. I do not know what color
> space is recommended for Piezography, AdobeRGB = 2.2 Gamma,
> sRGB = 1.8 Gamma. You better save as a Tiff and not as PSD
> as Qimage isn't that reliable with PSD (for example size
> issues).
>
> Qimage may have a problem with the Piezography profile if
> perceptual rendering + BPC is chosen. At least it has that
> problem with the QTR profiles but I do not know whether they
> are alike on that aspect. If there are issues with low Dmax
> and shades not fitting properly then try some alternatives
> like BPC off and Relative Colormetric with and without BPC.
> For the rest it is as usual: driver CM control off and
> Qimage CM control on.
> Be aware that if you do not have an embedded profile in the
> image Qimage will look for EXIF data to make a good guess
> what profile it should be and if no EXIF data is available
> it will assign a profile automatically. sRGB by default but
> that preference can be changed in the color management settings.
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
>
>
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>




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CDTobie@... wrote:
>>> AdobeRGB = 2.2 Gamma,
>> sRGB = 1.8 Gamma.
> 
> No, actually both sRGB and AdobeRGB are gamma 2.2, whitepoint 6500K... 
> the difference is in the gamut, not the gamma...

No excuse for that mistake. You are right. Colormatch is the 
exception.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |