Digital BW, The Print

I am trying a new direction in my photography and am wondering what 
some of the better ways of creating digital "grain" are.

Here are my sepcifics:

shooting with D200, ususally ISO 100 or 200, mostly landscapes and urban
PS CS2
R2400 (K3, papers: VFA and Museo PR), R2200 (K7, Hahnemuehle Museum 
Etching)

I used to shoot Iflord Delta 3200 a few years ago when I was using an 
FM2 or a FM3a and liked the results. I have tried using the "add noise" 
function in PS but am rather confused as to the differences between 
normal and Gaussian and was unable to produce something I liked. I also 
tried using the ISO 400 setting on a Fred Mirando BWPRO PS add-in I 
have, but I want more grain than it can produce.

Any suggestions? I am unsure whether I should shoot at ISO 1600 in the 
camera or create grain using other methods in Photoshop. Also, does one 
sharpen before or after adding grain?

Thank you.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pglombick" <glombick@...> 
wrote:
>
> I am trying a new direction in my photography and am wondering what 
> some of the better ways of creating digital "grain" are.
> 
> Here are my sepcifics:
> 
> shooting with D200, ususally ISO 100 or 200, mostly landscapes and urban
> PS CS2
> R2400 (K3, papers: VFA and Museo PR), R2200 (K7, Hahnemuehle Museum 
> Etching)
> 
> I used to shoot Iflord Delta 3200 a few years ago when I was using an 
> FM2 or a FM3a and liked the results. I have tried using the "add noise" 
> function in PS but am rather confused as to the differences between 
> normal and Gaussian and was unable to produce something I liked. I also 
> tried using the ISO 400 setting on a Fred Mirando BWPRO PS add-in I 
> have, but I want more grain than it can produce.
> 
> Any suggestions? I am unsure whether I should shoot at ISO 1600 in the 
> camera or create grain using other methods in Photoshop. Also, does one 
> sharpen before or after adding grain?

Hello, you might want to look at message 88023, Richard Smallfield's post on Lith effect.
The adding grain technique is nice and random.  Theat whole effect masks out the 
highlights and is aimed at the shadows but that part can be bypassed and probably 
worked on to get the grain where you want it.

Good luck, Robert

Pglombick, Adding grain, converting to B&W, tone control, split toning, and
more can be done with a cool plug in suite for Photoshop from Imagenomic.
Noiseware Professional, Portraiture and REAL GRAIN have become a regular
part of my work flow. Noiseware is one of the better (best) noise reduction
software tools out there and if you do any work with skin retouching, the
portraiture plug in can't be beat for quick easy skin retouching, but the
real grain portion is what your after here; adding grain. 

 

It has a bunch of presets but I usually end up tweaking here and there. You
can add it to and control it in the shadows, mid tone and highlight. I would
say its B&W conversion engine is very good; better than PS methods. They are
plug ins and can be smart filters. The grain can be controlled on a local
contrast level as well; i.e. softer or harder. 

 

AS for sharpening, I'd do it before I added grain but you are creating "the
look" so I'd say its time to play and see what you like best. It may be that
with sharpening after you will like the grittier look that can come with
that path. 

  

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pglombick
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 7:59 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Creating grain

 

I am trying a new direction in my photography and am wondering what 
some of the better ways of creating digital "grain" are.

Here are my sepcifics:

shooting with D200, ususally ISO 100 or 200, mostly landscapes and urban
PS CS2
R2400 (K3, papers: VFA and Museo PR), R2200 (K7, Hahnemuehle Museum 
Etching)

I used to shoot Iflord Delta 3200 a few years ago when I was using an 
FM2 or a FM3a and liked the results. I have tried using the "add noise" 
function in PS but am rather confused as to the differences between 
normal and Gaussian and was unable to produce something I liked. I also 
tried using the ISO 400 setting on a Fred Mirando BWPRO PS add-in I 
have, but I want more grain than it can produce.

Any suggestions? I am unsure whether I should shoot at ISO 1600 in the 
camera or create grain using other methods in Photoshop. Also, does one 
sharpen before or after adding grain?

Thank you. 
ools.

.

 
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=3702311/grpspId=1705019182/msgId
=88160/stime=1193057926/nc1=3848621/nc2=4507179/nc3=4025291> 
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would take a look at 
http://www.alienskin.com/exposure/

I have this and it simulates most of the BW films of the past. You can
even control grain size and distribution in high/mid/low zones.

Denis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pglombick"
<glombick@...> wrote:

>
> I am trying a new direction in my photography and am wondering what 
> some of the better ways of creating digital "grain" are.
> 
> Here are my sepcifics:
> 
> shooting with D200, ususally ISO 100 or 200, mostly landscapes and urban
> PS CS2
> R2400 (K3, papers: VFA and Museo PR), R2200 (K7, Hahnemuehle Museum 
> Etching)
> 
> I used to shoot Iflord Delta 3200 a few years ago when I was using an 
> FM2 or a FM3a and liked the results. I have tried using the "add noise" 
> function in PS but am rather confused as to the differences between 
> normal and Gaussian and was unable to produce something I liked. I also 
> tried using the ISO 400 setting on a Fred Mirando BWPRO PS add-in I 
> have, but I want more grain than it can produce.
> 
> Any suggestions? I am unsure whether I should shoot at ISO 1600 in the 
> camera or create grain using other methods in Photoshop. Also, does one 
> sharpen before or after adding grain?
> 
> Thank you.
>

Denis, For the price of alien skin's exposure 2, one could buy the whole
suite of imagenomic suite. IMHO, I think a much better deal but not having
played with it I can't say for sure.  

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
the_des_bois
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:35 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Creating grain

 

I would take a look at 
http://www.alienski <http://www.alienskin.com/exposure/> n.com/exposure/

I have this and it simulates most of the BW films of the past. You can
even control grain size and distribution in high/mid/low zones.

Denis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pglombick"
<glombick@...> wrote:
>
> I am trying a new direction in my photography and am wondering what 
> some of the better ways of creating digital "grain" are.
> 
> Here are my sepcifics:
> 
> shooting with D200, ususally ISO 100 or 200, mostly landscapes and urban
> PS CS2
> R2400 (K3, papers: VFA and Museo PR), R2200 (K7, Hahnemuehle Museum 
> Etching)
> 
> I used to shoot Iflord Delta 3200 a few years ago when I was using an 
> FM2 or a FM3a and liked the results. I have tried using the "add noise" 
> function in PS but am rather confused as to the differences between 
> normal and Gaussian and was unable to produce something I liked. I also 
> tried using the ISO 400 setting on a Fred Mirando BWPRO PS add-in I 
> have, but I want more grain than it can produce.
> 
> Any suggestions? I am unsure whether I should shoot at ISO 1600 in the 
> camera or create grain using other methods in Photoshop. Also, does one 
> sharpen before or after adding grain?
> 
> Thank you.
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eric,

Thanks I'll sure take a look at Imagenomic before upgrading to AS Exp.
2. :)

Denis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen"
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Denis, For the price of alien skin's exposure 2, one could buy the whole
> suite of imagenomic suite. IMHO, I think a much better deal but not
having
> played with it I can't say for sure.  
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photo
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214 827-8301
> 
>  
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> SKype ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> the_des_bois
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:35 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Creating grain
> 
>  
> 
> I would take a look at 
> http://www.alienski <http://www.alienskin.com/exposure/> n.com/exposure/
> 
> I have this and it simulates most of the BW films of the past. You can
> even control grain size and distribution in high/mid/low zones.
> 
> Denis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pglombick"
> <glombick@> wrote:
> >
> > I am trying a new direction in my photography and am wondering what 
> > some of the better ways of creating digital "grain" are.
> > 
> > Here are my sepcifics:
> > 
> > shooting with D200, ususally ISO 100 or 200, mostly landscapes and
urban
> > PS CS2
> > R2400 (K3, papers: VFA and Museo PR), R2200 (K7, Hahnemuehle Museum 
> > Etching)
> > 
> > I used to shoot Iflord Delta 3200 a few years ago when I was using an 
> > FM2 or a FM3a and liked the results. I have tried using the "add
noise" 
> > function in PS but am rather confused as to the differences between 
> > normal and Gaussian and was unable to produce something I liked. I
also 
> > tried using the ISO 400 setting on a Fred Mirando BWPRO PS add-in I 
> > have, but I want more grain than it can produce.
> > 
> > Any suggestions? I am unsure whether I should shoot at ISO 1600 in
the 
> > camera or create grain using other methods in Photoshop. Also,
does one 

> > sharpen before or after adding grain?
> > 
> > Thank you.
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I am not denigrating any of these recommended plugin products, but
would like to share my own experience.  After buying various plugins
over the years, I enrolled for a series of Photoshop  classes at my
local Junior college and have discovered that you can learn to do
almost any effect done with these, and with much finer control,with
the latest version of Photoshop. A bonus is that as a student, Adobe
offers substantial discounts on their products, which can be pricey. 
But then most plugins are pricey, and you just get them, not all the
features you get with Photoshop.  No, I don't work for Adobe.
Just a suggestion.
John
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "the_des_bois"
<thedesbois@...> wrote:
>
> Eric,
> 
> Thanks I'll sure take a look at Imagenomic before upgrading to AS Exp.
> 2. :)
> 
> Denis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen"
> <e.neilsen2@> wrote:
> >
> > Denis, For the price of alien skin's exposure 2, one could buy the
whole
> > suite of imagenomic suite. IMHO, I think a much better deal but not
> having
> > played with it I can't say for sure.  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Eric Neilsen Photo
> > 
> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> > 
> > Dallas, TX 75226
> > 
> > 214 827-8301
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> > 
> > SKype ejprinter
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >   _____  
> > 
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > the_des_bois
> > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:35 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Creating grain
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I would take a look at 
> > http://www.alienski <http://www.alienskin.com/exposure/>
n.com/exposure/
> > 
> > I have this and it simulates most of the BW films of the past. You can
> > even control grain size and distribution in high/mid/low zones.
> > 
> > Denis
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
> > <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> > eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pglombick"
> > <glombick@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I am trying a new direction in my photography and am wondering what 
> > > some of the better ways of creating digital "grain" are.
> > > 
> > > Here are my sepcifics:
> > > 
> > > shooting with D200, ususally ISO 100 or 200, mostly landscapes and
> urban
> > > PS CS2
> > > R2400 (K3, papers: VFA and Museo PR), R2200 (K7, Hahnemuehle Museum 
> > > Etching)
> > > 
> > > I used to shoot Iflord Delta 3200 a few years ago when I was
using an 

> > > FM2 or a FM3a and liked the results. I have tried using the "add
> noise" 
> > > function in PS but am rather confused as to the differences between 
> > > normal and Gaussian and was unable to produce something I liked. I
> also 
> > > tried using the ISO 400 setting on a Fred Mirando BWPRO PS add-in I 
> > > have, but I want more grain than it can produce.
> > > 
> > > Any suggestions? I am unsure whether I should shoot at ISO 1600 in
> the 
> > > camera or create grain using other methods in Photoshop. Also,
> does one 
> > > sharpen before or after adding grain?
> > > 
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Hi pglombick,

I've been playing with noise the past few months. I'm mostly trying to
get film to look like film, but I started out by seeing what was
possible with perfect digital images.

The only paths that have really worked for me are plug-in Photo Effect
"filters". I have yet to run across something to simulate fine grain
sharpness.

In my case, severe pre-filter mucking about gives me an edge. However,
I don't want pics to look like they came off some assembly line and
they are all different.

Years ago, I had some fun doing downtown as high contrast copy film.

Good luck!!!

gar

An interesting trick to adding grain that I came up with years ago and I like 
the effect:

1.   Create a new layer on top   of the image and in the add layer window 
that come up,
>link it to the image layer> fill it with 50% neutral gray > Set the layer 
mode to Soft Light.

2.   Bring the image up to 100% resolution so you can examine the results of 
the next step.

3.   Use Filters>Noise>Add Noise   and set the noise to Monochromatic

4.   Adjust very carefully starting with 0 grain and increasing til you get 
the grain you effect want. Very slight adjustments will change the image a lot!

Good luck!

Best Wishes,
Mark Nelson

Precision Digital Negatives - The System
PDNPrint Forum at Yahoo Groups
www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com

In a message dated 10/22/07 7:59:09 AM, glombick@... writes:


> 
> 
> 
> I am trying a new direction in my photography and am wondering what
> some of the better ways of creating digital "grain" are.
> 
> Here are my sepcifics:
> 
> shooting with D200, ususally ISO 100 or 200, mostly landscapes and urban
> PS CS2
> R2400 (K3, papers: VFA and Museo PR), R2200 (K7, Hahnemuehle Museum
> Etching)
> 
> I used to shoot Iflord Delta 3200 a few years ago when I was using an
> FM2 or a FM3a and liked the results. I have tried using the "add noise"
> function in PS but am rather confused as to the differences between
> normal and Gaussian and was unable to produce something I liked. I also
> tried using the ISO 400 setting on a Fred Mirando BWPRO PS add-in I
> have, but I want more grain than it can produce.
> 
> Any suggestions? I am unsure whether I should shoot at ISO 1600 in the
> camera or create grain using other methods in Photoshop. Also, does one
> sharpen before or after adding grain?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 












**************************************
 See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll second Eric's suggestion of RealGrain. It is the best I've found  
(or at least equal to the best).

Aside from allowing control of color/monochrome grain and low/midtone/ 
highlight grain (with quite a few presents), it also uses variable  
softening to simulate various formats of film. It may seem that you  
would never want to "unsharpen" an image, but when combined with  
various grain sizes and distributions it is remarkably good at  
disguising digital noise and simulating "real" grain. I almost always  
use it if I "up-size" an image more than 30% or so.

Myron


On 23-Oct-07, at 8:26 AM,  
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> There are 20 messages in this issue.
> 1c. Re: Creating grain
>     Posted by: "Eric Neilsen" e.neilsen2@... platinumeric
>     Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))
>
> Pglombick, Adding grain, converting to B&W, tone control, split  
> toning, and
> more can be done with a cool plug in suite for Photoshop from  
> Imagenomic.
> Noiseware Professional, Portraiture and REAL GRAIN have become a  
> regular
> part of my work flow. Noiseware is one of the better (best) noise  
> reduction
> software tools out there and if you do any work with skin  
> retouching, the
> portraiture plug in can't be beat for quick easy skin retouching,  
> but the
> real grain portion is what your after here; adding grain.

Another suggestion if I may..... scan a grainy negative and overlay in PS ....or ..... snap directly with film :)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Remember that at the advent of photography, everyone was trying to  
make photographs look like paintings until a few brave, forward- 
looking souls embraced the medium on its own terms. And when motion  
pictures came along, folks made movies that looked like plays until  
someone figured out that the technology made it possible to move the  
camera. In both cases, inherent aspects of the technology enabled a  
new creative language. So here's hoping that it doesn't take us too  
long to stop trying to emulate the old and really engage with the  
new. And then, in the year 2020, you can laugh when some young post- 
digital photographer asks where to get filters for simulating CCD  
noise... like in the old days.

Harry

On Oct 23, 2007, at 5:34 AM, Myron Gochnauer wrote:

> I'll second Eric's suggestion of RealGrain. It is the best I've found
> (or at least equal to the best).
>
> Aside from allowing control of color/monochrome grain and low/midtone/
> highlight grain (with quite a few presents), it also uses variable
> softening to simulate various formats of film. It may seem that you
> would never want to "unsharpen" an image, but when combined with
> various grain sizes and distributions it is remarkably good at
> disguising digital noise and simulating "real" grain. I almost always
> use it if I "up-size" an image more than 30% or so.
>
> Myron
>
>
> On 23-Oct-07, at 8:26 AM,
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>> There are 20 messages in this issue.
>> 1c. Re: Creating grain
>>     Posted by: "Eric Neilsen" e.neilsen2@worldnet.att.net  
>> platinumeric
>>     Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))
>>
>> Pglombick, Adding grain, converting to B&W, tone control, split
>> toning, and
>> more can be done with a cool plug in suite for Photoshop from
>> Imagenomic.
>> Noiseware Professional, Portraiture and REAL GRAIN have become a
>> regular
>> part of my work flow. Noiseware is one of the better (best) noise
>> reduction
>> software tools out there and if you do any work with skin
>> retouching, the
>> portraiture plug in can't be beat for quick easy skin retouching,
>> but the
>> real grain portion is what your after here; adding grain.
>
>
>
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