Digital BW, The Print

Hello everyone.

I just bought me a 3800 and printed some step wedges on Photo Rag with
ABW. Then I measured them with a densitometer. But the results were
not good. See the graph at http://www.xs4all.nl/~hc6/3800/3800.htm 

Although the largest part of the curve is smooth, the darkest parts
are bad, with no differentation between the 2 darkest steps.

My settings were:
PS CS: 
- Print space/Profile/ Printer color management.
- Working space: gray Gamma 2.2.

Epson:
- Media type: Velvet Fine Art Paper

Epson ABW:
- Tone: Dark.
- No further adjustments.

I also did a print on Velvet Fine Art Paper, which looked good, but I
want to use Photo Rag.
 
Could anyone, please, give me the right settings for printing B&W on
Photo Rag with the 3800? (if it is possible to make a good print on
this paper with the 3800)

Thank you,

Igor

Your problem is your paper setting.
Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo Rag by
Hahnemühle?
I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to normal.

Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC - Google it.

Mike




2008/9/5 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@...>

>   Hello everyone.
>
> I just bought me a 3800 and printed some step wedges on Photo Rag with
> ABW. Then I measured them with a densitometer. But the results were
> not good. See the graph at http://www.xs4all.nl/~hc6/3800/3800.htm
>
> Although the largest part of the curve is smooth, the darkest parts
> are bad, with no differentation between the 2 darkest steps.
>
> My settings were:
> PS CS:
> - Print space/Profile/ Printer color management.
> - Working space: gray Gamma 2.2.
>
> Epson:
> - Media type: Velvet Fine Art Paper
>
> Epson ABW:
> - Tone: Dark.
> - No further adjustments.
>
> I also did a print on Velvet Fine Art Paper, which looked good, but I
> want to use Photo Rag.
>
> Could anyone, please, give me the right settings for printing B&W on
> Photo Rag with the 3800? (if it is possible to make a good print on
> this paper with the 3800)
>
> Thank you,
>
> Igor
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Igor,

>Could anyone, please, give me the right settings for printing B&W on
>Photo Rag with the 3800? (if it is possible to make a good print on
>this paper with the 3800)

Please try the settings outlined in article #9 at the link below. 
It's for a 2400 but should work with the 3800.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Mike,

> Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo Rag by
Hahnemühle? I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to normal.

Hahnemühle* recommends "Velvet File Art" as paper setting for all its
fine art
papers. So this is what I used, and wether I print with Tone/Dark,
Normal or Light, the blacks remain crappy, with no or hardly visible
separation between the 2 darkest steps in the wedge.

*
http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/downloads/62/Print_Instruction_Epson.pdf



> Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC .

Yes, they say it's good. However, I was hoping to get good results
without having to engage in using a RIP and/or making ICC (which I've
never done before and will cost me a lot of time to figure out).  I
also thought that since K3 is a widely used inkset and Photo Rag a
popular paper, the right settings to use this combination had long
been found by others. But maybe I can't be done, making good B&W
prints with the 3800 on Photo Rag without using a RIP.

Igor






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King"
<drmrking@...> wrote:

>
> Your problem is your paper setting.
> Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo Rag by
> Hahnemühle?
> I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to normal.
> 
> Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC - Google it.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2008/9/5 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@...>
> 
> >   Hello everyone.
> >
> > I just bought me a 3800 and printed some step wedges on Photo Rag with
> > ABW. Then I measured them with a densitometer. But the results were
> > not good. See the graph at http://www.xs4all.nl/~hc6/3800/3800.htm
> >
> > Although the largest part of the curve is smooth, the darkest parts
> > are bad, with no differentation between the 2 darkest steps.
> >
> > My settings were:
> > PS CS:
> > - Print space/Profile/ Printer color management.
> > - Working space: gray Gamma 2.2.
> >
> > Epson:
> > - Media type: Velvet Fine Art Paper
> >
> > Epson ABW:
> > - Tone: Dark.
> > - No further adjustments.
> >
> > I also did a print on Velvet Fine Art Paper, which looked good, but I
> > want to use Photo Rag.
> >
> > Could anyone, please, give me the right settings for printing B&W on
> > Photo Rag with the 3800? (if it is possible to make a good print on
> > this paper with the 3800)
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Igor
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ok so that recommendation is crap VFA is far too heavy ink load for HPR
which is why you have the shadows problem.
The 4800 recommendation is the following - try using that - I find it works
fine on 4800 and I am sure it will be good for 3800.
Watercolor Paper - Radiant White, 1440 dpi, Matte Black, Perceptual

Without a profile set to ABW to "dark". This is approximately correct for a
gamma 2.2 image.

If you take the trouble to build a profile use normal setting. Its trivial
to build a profile as you have a spectro and you can still use ABW with it.

Mike






2008/9/6 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@...>

>   Mike,
>
> > Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo Rag by
> Hahnemühle? I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to normal.
>
> Hahnemühle* recommends "Velvet File Art" as paper setting for all its
> fine art
> papers. So this is what I used, and wether I print with Tone/Dark,
> Normal or Light, the blacks remain crappy, with no or hardly visible
> separation between the 2 darkest steps in the wedge.
>
> *
> http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/downloads/62/Print_Instruction_Epson.pdf
>
> > Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC .
>
> Yes, they say it's good. However, I was hoping to get good results
> without having to engage in using a RIP and/or making ICC (which I've
> never done before and will cost me a lot of time to figure out). I
> also thought that since K3 is a widely used inkset and Photo Rag a
> popular paper, the right settings to use this combination had long
> been found by others. But maybe I can't be done, making good B&W
> prints with the 3800 on Photo Rag without using a RIP.
>
> Igor
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Michael King"
> <drmrking@...> wrote:
> >
> > Your problem is your paper setting.
> > Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo Rag by
> > Hahnemühle?
> > I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to normal.
> >
> > Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC - Google it.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2008/9/5 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@...>
> >
> > > Hello everyone.
> > >
> > > I just bought me a 3800 and printed some step wedges on Photo Rag with
> > > ABW. Then I measured them with a densitometer. But the results were
> > > not good. See the graph at http://www.xs4all.nl/~hc6/3800/3800.htm
> > >
> > > Although the largest part of the curve is smooth, the darkest parts
> > > are bad, with no differentation between the 2 darkest steps.
> > >
> > > My settings were:
> > > PS CS:
> > > - Print space/Profile/ Printer color management.
> > > - Working space: gray Gamma 2.2.
> > >
> > > Epson:
> > > - Media type: Velvet Fine Art Paper
> > >
> > > Epson ABW:
> > > - Tone: Dark.
> > > - No further adjustments.
> > >
> > > I also did a print on Velvet Fine Art Paper, which looked good, but I
> > > want to use Photo Rag.
> > >
> > > Could anyone, please, give me the right settings for printing B&W on
> > > Photo Rag with the 3800? (if it is possible to make a good print on
> > > this paper with the 3800)
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > >
> > > Igor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike,

Thanks for your reply. About your advice:

1) Does 1440 dpi (instead of 2880) also affects the tone? I thought it
only related to sharpness.
(Btw, I upgraded to driver v 6.5, which has a somewhat different
interface. The options for Dpi are "Superphoto 2880x1440 dpi" or
"Superfine 1440x720 dpi")

2) About Intent/Perceptual: following the advice on the site of Eric
Chan, I
switched off the Color Management in PS. In PS CS, which is what I
use, that can be done by, in the Print Preview, choosing "Printer
color management" in the Print space/Profile menu. But if I do so, the
Intent is grayed out, so I can not set it to "Perceptual". 
So what should I do? Leave the Print preview settings as described? of
choose some profile(which one?)and set Intent to "Perceptual"?


3) > Its trivial to build a profile.
By trivial, you mean easy? (sorry, english is not my native language)

Thanks,

Igor






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King"
<drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> Ok so that recommendation is crap VFA is far too heavy ink load for HPR
> which is why you have the shadows problem.
> The 4800 recommendation is the following - try using that - I find
it works
> fine on 4800 and I am sure it will be good for 3800.
> Watercolor Paper - Radiant White, 1440 dpi, Matte Black, Perceptual
> 
> Without a profile set to ABW to "dark". This is approximately
correct for a
> gamma 2.2 image.
> 
> If you take the trouble to build a profile use normal setting. Its
trivial
> to build a profile as you have a spectro and you can still use ABW
with it.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2008/9/6 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@...>
> 
> >   Mike,
> >
> > > Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo Rag by
> > Hahnemühle? I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to normal.
> >
> > Hahnemühle* recommends "Velvet File Art" as paper setting for all its
> > fine art
> > papers. So this is what I used, and wether I print with Tone/Dark,
> > Normal or Light, the blacks remain crappy, with no or hardly visible
> > separation between the 2 darkest steps in the wedge.
> >
> > *
> >
http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/downloads/62/Print_Instruction_Epson.pdf
> >
> > > Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC .
> >
> > Yes, they say it's good. However, I was hoping to get good results
> > without having to engage in using a RIP and/or making ICC (which I've
> > never done before and will cost me a lot of time to figure out). I
> > also thought that since K3 is a widely used inkset and Photo Rag a
> > popular paper, the right settings to use this combination had long
> > been found by others. But maybe I can't be done, making good B&W
> > prints with the 3800 on Photo Rag without using a RIP.
> >
> > Igor
> >
> > --- In
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Michael King"
> > <drmrking@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Your problem is your paper setting.
> > > Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo Rag by
> > > Hahnemühle?
> > > I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to normal.
> > >
> > > Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC - Google it.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2008/9/5 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@>
> > >
> > > > Hello everyone.
> > > >
> > > > I just bought me a 3800 and printed some step wedges on Photo
Rag with
> > > > ABW. Then I measured them with a densitometer. But the results
were
> > > > not good. See the graph at http://www.xs4all.nl/~hc6/3800/3800.htm
> > > >
> > > > Although the largest part of the curve is smooth, the darkest
parts
> > > > are bad, with no differentation between the 2 darkest steps.
> > > >
> > > > My settings were:
> > > > PS CS:
> > > > - Print space/Profile/ Printer color management.
> > > > - Working space: gray Gamma 2.2.
> > > >
> > > > Epson:
> > > > - Media type: Velvet Fine Art Paper
> > > >
> > > > Epson ABW:
> > > > - Tone: Dark.
> > > > - No further adjustments.
> > > >
> > > > I also did a print on Velvet Fine Art Paper, which looked
good, but I
> > > > want to use Photo Rag.
> > > >
> > > > Could anyone, please, give me the right settings for printing
B&W on
> > > > Photo Rag with the 3800? (if it is possible to make a good
print on

> > > > this paper with the 3800)
> > > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > >
> > > > Igor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

2008/9/6 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@...>

>
> 1) Does 1440 dpi (instead of 2880) also affects the tone? I thought it
> only related to sharpness.
> (Btw, I upgraded to driver v 6.5, which has a somewhat different
> interface. The options for Dpi are "Superphoto 2880x1440 dpi" or
> "Superfine 1440x720 dpi")
>

2880 uses more ink - tone changes with printer settings.
Try both.


>
>
> 2) About Intent/Perceptual: following the advice on the site of Eric
> Chan, I
> switched off the Color Management in PS. In PS CS, which is what I
> use, that can be done by, in the Print Preview, choosing "Printer
> color management" in the Print space/Profile menu. But if I do so, the
> Intent is grayed out, so I can not set it to "Perceptual".
> So what should I do? Leave the Print preview settings as described? of
> choose some profile(which one?)and set Intent to "Perceptual"?
>
If you are not using a QTR create icc profile then don't worry about
"perceptual" etc. just do as Eric says.


>
> 3) > Its trivial to build a profile.
> By trivial, you mean easy? (sorry, english is not my native language)
>

Yes easy. Just print 51 step profile included in QTR package.
Read with spectro and then drop resulting file on QTR create ICC program
icon.
Done....


>
> Thanks,
>
> Igor
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Michael King"
> <drmrking@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ok so that recommendation is crap VFA is far too heavy ink load for HPR
> > which is why you have the shadows problem.
> > The 4800 recommendation is the following - try using that - I find
> it works
> > fine on 4800 and I am sure it will be good for 3800.
> > Watercolor Paper - Radiant White, 1440 dpi, Matte Black, Perceptual
> >
> > Without a profile set to ABW to "dark". This is approximately
> correct for a
> > gamma 2.2 image.
> >
> > If you take the trouble to build a profile use normal setting. Its
> trivial
> > to build a profile as you have a spectro and you can still use ABW
> with it.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2008/9/6 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@...>
> >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > > Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo Rag by
> > > Hahnemühle? I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to normal.
> > >
> > > Hahnemühle* recommends "Velvet File Art" as paper setting for all its
> > > fine art
> > > papers. So this is what I used, and wether I print with Tone/Dark,
> > > Normal or Light, the blacks remain crappy, with no or hardly visible
> > > separation between the 2 darkest steps in the wedge.
> > >
> > > *
> > >
> http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/downloads/62/Print_Instruction_Epson.pdf
> > >
> > > > Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC .
> > >
> > > Yes, they say it's good. However, I was hoping to get good results
> > > without having to engage in using a RIP and/or making ICC (which I've
> > > never done before and will cost me a lot of time to figure out). I
> > > also thought that since K3 is a widely used inkset and Photo Rag a
> > > popular paper, the right settings to use this combination had long
> > > been found by others. But maybe I can't be done, making good B&W
> > > prints with the 3800 on Photo Rag without using a RIP.
> > >
> > > Igor
> > >
> > > --- In
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
>
> > > "Michael King"
> > > <drmrking@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Your problem is your paper setting.
> > > > Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo Rag by
> > > > Hahnemühle?
> > > > I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to normal.
> > > >
> > > > Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC - Google it.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2008/9/5 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@>
> > > >
> > > > > Hello everyone.
> > > > >
> > > > > I just bought me a 3800 and printed some step wedges on Photo
> Rag with
> > > > > ABW. Then I measured them with a densitometer. But the results
> were
> > > > > not good. See the graph at http://www.xs4all.nl/~hc6/3800/3800.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > Although the largest part of the curve is smooth, the darkest
> parts
> > > > > are bad, with no differentation between the 2 darkest steps.
> > > > >
> > > > > My settings were:
> > > > > PS CS:
> > > > > - Print space/Profile/ Printer color management.
> > > > > - Working space: gray Gamma 2.2.
> > > > >
> > > > > Epson:
> > > > > - Media type: Velvet Fine Art Paper
> > > > >
> > > > > Epson ABW:
> > > > > - Tone: Dark.
> > > > > - No further adjustments.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also did a print on Velvet Fine Art Paper, which looked
> good, but I
> > > > > want to use Photo Rag.
> > > > >
> > > > > Could anyone, please, give me the right settings for printing
> B&W on
> > > > > Photo Rag with the 3800? (if it is possible to make a good
> print on
> > > > > this paper with the 3800)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you,
> > > > >
> > > > > Igor
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King" <drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> Ok so that recommendation is crap VFA is far too heavy ink load for HPR
> which is why you have the shadows problem.
> The 4800 recommendation is the following - try using that - I find it works
> fine on 4800 and I am sure it will be good for 3800.
> Watercolor Paper - Radiant White, 1440 dpi, Matte Black, Perceptual

Good info...also...

Try exploring other media settings to open shadows...

Don't know if the 3800 has a media setting for "Ultra Smooth", but try that.

I did a test some time ago to find the "best" media setting for William Turner paper on my Epson 4800.

Epson's black usually comes in hard and fast, less so with the newest printers, and I wanted to find the media setting that has 
smoothest black ramp from 100% to 90%.

I printed a ten patch gray ramp from 100% to 90% with five media settings.

My Excel results are below for William Turner on the Epson 4800:

http://homepage.mac.com/johnvito/WilliamTurnerMediaSettings.png

From 100% to 90% only two media settings show fairly smooth linear density loss, albeit stepped at times -Ultra Smooth and 
WaterColor media settings. While the other three actually have spiked increases in density - called reversals - on some patches. 
For example Epson's Enhanced media setting has the same density at the following patches: 100%, 99% and 97%. The 98% patch 
has a lower density than 97% patch and another reversal at 94%.

My chart does show VFA media setting is crap...as Mike put it!

My media setting choice for William Turner was UltraSmooth as it has the most smoothest linear path. If I was building a custom 
paper profile, the profile would have less heavy lifting to do once the "best media type" is found.

Thanks, Mike.

I tried the Watercolor Paper - Radiant White setting, but for some
reason it won't print: once every minute or so the printer makes  a
noice as if the print head moves, but nothing happens, nothing is
printed. It seemed to go on forever, and I could only stop it by
pressing the power button on the printer, thereby switching it of.
Very strange. This happened to me a couple of times and from 2 PC's:
one with driver v5.51 (came on CDRom), and one with driver v6.5 (from
the Epson site).

I'll seriously consider QTR. Although I have a densitometer (X-rite),
not a spectrophotometer. But I guess that will do the job as well.

I g o r



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King"
<drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> 2008/9/6 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@...>
> 
> >
> > 1) Does 1440 dpi (instead of 2880) also affects the tone? I thought it
> > only related to sharpness.
> > (Btw, I upgraded to driver v 6.5, which has a somewhat different
> > interface. The options for Dpi are "Superphoto 2880x1440 dpi" or
> > "Superfine 1440x720 dpi")
> >
> 
> 2880 uses more ink - tone changes with printer settings.
> Try both.
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > 2) About Intent/Perceptual: following the advice on the site of Eric
> > Chan, I
> > switched off the Color Management in PS. In PS CS, which is what I
> > use, that can be done by, in the Print Preview, choosing "Printer
> > color management" in the Print space/Profile menu. But if I do so, the
> > Intent is grayed out, so I can not set it to "Perceptual".
> > So what should I do? Leave the Print preview settings as described? of
> > choose some profile(which one?)and set Intent to "Perceptual"?
> >
> If you are not using a QTR create icc profile then don't worry about
> "perceptual" etc. just do as Eric says.
> 
> 
> >
> > 3) > Its trivial to build a profile.
> > By trivial, you mean easy? (sorry, english is not my native language)
> >
> 
> Yes easy. Just print 51 step profile included in QTR package.
> Read with spectro and then drop resulting file on QTR create ICC program
> icon.
> Done....
> 
> 
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Igor
> >
> > --- In
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Michael King"
> > <drmrking@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok so that recommendation is crap VFA is far too heavy ink load
for HPR
> > > which is why you have the shadows problem.
> > > The 4800 recommendation is the following - try using that - I find
> > it works
> > > fine on 4800 and I am sure it will be good for 3800.
> > > Watercolor Paper - Radiant White, 1440 dpi, Matte Black, Perceptual
> > >
> > > Without a profile set to ABW to "dark". This is approximately
> > correct for a
> > > gamma 2.2 image.
> > >
> > > If you take the trouble to build a profile use normal setting. Its
> > trivial
> > > to build a profile as you have a spectro and you can still use ABW
> > with it.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2008/9/6 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@>
> > >
> > > > Mike,
> > > >
> > > > > Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo
Rag by
> > > > Hahnemühle? I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to
normal.
> > > >
> > > > Hahnemühle* recommends "Velvet File Art" as paper setting for
all its
> > > > fine art
> > > > papers. So this is what I used, and wether I print with Tone/Dark,
> > > > Normal or Light, the blacks remain crappy, with no or hardly
visible
> > > > separation between the 2 darkest steps in the wedge.
> > > >
> > > > *
> > > >
> >
http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/downloads/62/Print_Instruction_Epson.pdf
> > > >
> > > > > Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC .
> > > >
> > > > Yes, they say it's good. However, I was hoping to get good results
> > > > without having to engage in using a RIP and/or making ICC
(which I've
> > > > never done before and will cost me a lot of time to figure out). I
> > > > also thought that since K3 is a widely used inkset and Photo Rag a
> > > > popular paper, the right settings to use this combination had long
> > > > been found by others. But maybe I can't be done, making good B&W
> > > > prints with the 3800 on Photo Rag without using a RIP.
> > > >
> > > > Igor
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> >
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> >
> > > > "Michael King"
> > > > <drmrking@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Your problem is your paper setting.
> > > > > Did you check which paper setting is recommended for Photo
Rag by
> > > > > Hahnemühle?
> > > > > I would use the same paper setting for ABW set to normal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also for a great result you need to use QTR Create ICC -
Google it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2008/9/5 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello everyone.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just bought me a 3800 and printed some step wedges on Photo
> > Rag with
> > > > > > ABW. Then I measured them with a densitometer. But the results
> > were
> > > > > > not good. See the graph at
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hc6/3800/3800.htm

> > > > > >
> > > > > > Although the largest part of the curve is smooth, the darkest
> > parts
> > > > > > are bad, with no differentation between the 2 darkest steps.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My settings were:
> > > > > > PS CS:
> > > > > > - Print space/Profile/ Printer color management.
> > > > > > - Working space: gray Gamma 2.2.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Epson:
> > > > > > - Media type: Velvet Fine Art Paper
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Epson ABW:
> > > > > > - Tone: Dark.
> > > > > > - No further adjustments.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also did a print on Velvet Fine Art Paper, which looked
> > good, but I
> > > > > > want to use Photo Rag.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Could anyone, please, give me the right settings for printing
> > B&W on
> > > > > > Photo Rag with the 3800? (if it is possible to make a good
> > print on
> > > > > > this paper with the 3800)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Igor
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Michael King wrote:
> 2008/9/6 Igor Wesdorp <iwesdorp@...>
> 
>> 1) Does 1440 dpi (instead of 2880) also affects the tone? I thought it
>> only related to sharpness.
>> (Btw, I upgraded to driver v 6.5, which has a somewhat different
>> interface. The options for Dpi are "Superphoto 2880x1440 dpi" or
>> "Superfine 1440x720 dpi")
>>
> 
> 2880 uses more ink - tone changes with printer settings.
> Try both.


The 3800 is the first Epson model that has the same paper 
specific ICC profile for different print resolutions. Unlike 
the 17" models and wider formats before it where every 
resolution has its own ICC profile. My guess is that it uses 
some firmware curve control to make the ink laid down equal 
between selected resolutions. There's more changed in 
dithering patterns too between the 4x00 and the 3800 models.

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Also check the Dark tone setting instead of the default 
darker Tone setting. Chan refers to that on the same webpage.

No 3800 here but just interested.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

John,

You were right, the Ultra smooth fine art paper setting did indeed
give me one of the best results thusfar (next to Clayton Jones'
workflow), so it works for printing on Photo Rag too.

Your story about Epson's black was very reassuring to me: I see now
that I'm not the only one who encountered this problem. I had some
'reversals' too, like you.

What really puzzles me is that printing with K3 on PhotoRag apparently
still hasn't been figured out properly. Is there nobody out here who
has the recipe and/or profile for a good result? (I tried the profile
Eric Chan made, but it didn't work for me. Maybe I did something wrong).

I´ll have to work on it. But I have not decided yet if I will be using
adjustment curve layers to tweak the photo prior to printing. Or maybe
I should use QTR to create ICC profiles. They say QTR is good and not
too difficult.

Igor


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo"
<jvlist@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King"
<drmrking@> wrote:
> >
> > Ok so that recommendation is crap VFA is far too heavy ink load
for HPR
> > which is why you have the shadows problem.
> > The 4800 recommendation is the following - try using that - I find
it works
> > fine on 4800 and I am sure it will be good for 3800.
> > Watercolor Paper - Radiant White, 1440 dpi, Matte Black, Perceptual
> 
> Good info...also...
> 
> Try exploring other media settings to open shadows...
> 
> Don't know if the 3800 has a media setting for "Ultra Smooth", but
try that.
> 
> I did a test some time ago to find the "best" media setting for
William Turner paper on my Epson 4800.
> 
> Epson's black usually comes in hard and fast, less so with the
newest printers, and I wanted to find the media setting that has 
> smoothest black ramp from 100% to 90%.
> 
> I printed a ten patch gray ramp from 100% to 90% with five media
settings.
> 
> My Excel results are below for William Turner on the Epson 4800:
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/johnvito/WilliamTurnerMediaSettings.png
> 
> From 100% to 90% only two media settings show fairly smooth linear
density loss, albeit stepped at times -Ultra Smooth and 
> WaterColor media settings. While the other three actually have
spiked increases in density - called reversals - on some patches. 
> For example Epson's Enhanced media setting has the same density at
the following patches: 100%, 99% and 97%. The 98% patch 
> has a lower density than 97% patch and another reversal at 94%.
> 
> My chart does show VFA media setting is crap...as Mike put it!
> 
> My media setting choice for William Turner was UltraSmooth as it has
the most smoothest linear path. If I was building a custom 
> paper profile, the profile would have less heavy lifting to do once
the "best media type" is found.
>

> Also check the Dark tone setting

I did, but thanks anyway.

Vriendelijke groeten* to you, too, Ernst.


* Dutch for: kind regards



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> Also check the Dark tone setting instead of the default 
> darker Tone setting. Chan refers to that on the same webpage.
> 
> No 3800 here but just interested.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

Can I use this thread to ask a question I have never found a specific
answer to?

It relates to the media settings, discussed here in part.

Is there an article or a book that would describe what the Epson media
settings really do? I know they influence ink load in some way,
probably dither pattern... but this is all guessing and testing for
me. I know they (except for the 3800) related to specific profiles.
But how do they relate?

Many questions I have, few answers I have found. I am sure many people
are in the same darkness as I am...

Thanks for any reading suggestions or direct help!

Denis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo"
<jvlist@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King"
<drmrking@> wrote:
> >
> > Ok so that recommendation is crap VFA is far too heavy ink load
for HPR
> > which is why you have the shadows problem.
> > The 4800 recommendation is the following - try using that - I find
it works

> > fine on 4800 and I am sure it will be good for 3800.
> > Watercolor Paper - Radiant White, 1440 dpi, Matte Black, Perceptual
>

Media settings relate to ink loading and balancing. Possibly to  
dithering in some instances. They relate to specific ICC profiles only  
in that the profiles are built to work using the "same-name" media  
setting. Usually ( but not always) this media setting is also optimal  
for building your own custom profiles.

C. D. Tobie
WW Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
DataColor.com
CDTobie@...

On Sep 6, 2008, at 5:17 PM, "the_des_bois" <thedesbois@...>  
wrote:

> Can I use this thread to ask a question I have never found a specific
> answer to?
>
> It relates to the media settings, discussed here in part.
>
> Is there an article or a book that would describe what the Epson media
> settings really do? I know they influence ink load in some way,
> probably dither pattern... but this is all guessing and testing for
> me. I know they (except for the 3800) related to specific profiles.
> But how do they relate?
>
> Many questions I have, few answers I have found. I am sure many people
> are in the same darkness as I am...
>
> Thanks for any reading suggestions or direct help!
>
> Denis
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo"
> <jvlist@...> wrote:
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King"
> <drmrking@> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ok so that recommendation is crap VFA is far too heavy ink load
> for HPR
>>> which is why you have the shadows problem.
>>> The 4800 recommendation is the following - try using that - I find
> it works
>>> fine on 4800 and I am sure it will be good for 3800.
>>> Watercolor Paper - Radiant White, 1440 dpi, Matte Black, Perceptual
>>
>
>
>
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