Digital BW, The Print

I put some links to HP Material Data Safety Sheets and other 
information, as well as some of my notes on these inks at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-Vivera-Notes.pdf  

Needless to say, HP appears to have done a terrific job here.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> I put some links to HP Material Data Safety Sheets and other 
> information, as well as some of my notes on these inks at 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-Vivera-Notes.pdf  
> 
> Needless to say, HP appears to have done a terrific job here.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

VERY interesting.... HP's using triethanolamine. The main chemical of 
my favorite film developer, which was a pyro developer. Here's a link 
if your curious:

http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopModules/StoreProductDetails.aspx?
productID=85&tabid=9&tabindex=2&categoryid=31&selection=0&langId=0

Scott

pr_roark wrote:
> I put some links to HP Material Data Safety Sheets and other 
> information, as well as some of my notes on these inks at 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-Vivera-Notes.pdf  
> 
> Needless to say, HP appears to have done a terrific job here.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 

Paul,

the link in the article:
http://www.paulroark.com/BWInfo/Pigment-Stabilization.pdf
seems to be disconnected.
Wonder if the article you refer to is:
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Lightfastness.pdf

Steric, isn't that related to fatty acids: butyrates 
(butteracid in my Dutch conscience) ?
This one a  basic ingedient of ABS "the stronger styrene 
plastic".
Styrenes that all yellow in time.
Didn't expect a styrene component in the pigment 
encapsulation, acrylic, PVA, are all more clear and stay 
more clear. My first silkscreen waterbased ink (dispersion) 
made by Unico was based on an acrylic/styrene mix but I 
thought at that time that the styrene was added to reduce 
the ingredient costs. It probably is more related to the 
behaviour as a pigment particle in the dispersion than to 
their color quality.

Checking it on a wider brain,

I see the butyrate is used in mixes of acrylic and styrene 
for the encapsulation, BASF people,
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/la015734j

Nothing on Electrosteric in Wikipedia but this one gives the 
more general overview:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5639296/description.html

On more water in the Vivera ink, there will be more water 
vaporised in the thermohead than it is in a pi\ufffdzohead, at 
least the technology suggests that. What lands on the paper 
may be of equal rheology compared to the Epson inks. Some 
ingredients will have to do with the different jet 
technology and the head's materials they come in contact with.

Some thoughts on using Vivera inks that lingered in my head 
longer than today:

The use of Vivera inks (or V7 mixes made of them :-) in 
pi\ufffdzohead designs must be possible while the other way 
around Epson inks in HP heads is less likely to work 
consistently. The higher water content may be an obstacle 
given their use in a pi\ufffdzohead. You gave the MSDS sheets for 
all monochromes but the gloss enhancer which could be a part 
of a V7 mix. Big carts of the monochrome inks (but the GE 
cart) are available for the Z6100, 750 ML the price drops to 
approximately 20-25 Eurocents a ML without VAT. The twin 
pack 130 ML carts (260 ML) of GE will be something like 30 
Eurocents a ML.

There's a reason for using pi\ufffdzoheads as the alternative 
quad drivers (QTR for example) for HP models do not exist. A 
pity as the head technology in the B9180 is really good and 
the heads are user replaceable. Anyway that B9180 already 
makes a very nice matte B&W print with the Vivera pigment 
inks it uses. The same heads I have in my Z3100 and not one 
replaced in 20 months and no clog problem either. Maybe QTR 
will one day cover the HP models as well.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Ernst,

> the link in the article:
> http://www.paulroark.com/BWInfo/Pigment-Stabilization.pdf
> seems to be disconnected.

It seems to be working for me now. 

 
> Steric, isn't that related to fatty acids: butyrates 
> (butteracid in my Dutch conscience) ?

I don't know.  It seems to be used in the stabilization literature to 
refer to a method of stabilization that basically uses long polymer 
surfactants to suround the particles and keep them apart.

I do think yellowing of these stabilization components is an issue.  
I assume they are essentially clear at first, but UV typically seems 
to break bonds and often the result is some yellowness.

> ... acrylic, PVA, are all more clear and stay 
> more clear...
> 

> I see the butyrate is used in mixes of acrylic and styrene 
> for the encapsulation, BASF people,
> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/la015734j
> 
> Nothing on Electrosteric in Wikipedia but this one gives the 
> more general overview:
> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5639296/description.html

I'll check these out later today.

Have you seen anything with respect to the pH of the Vivera inks?  (I 
don't have a meter and litmus paper in ink is probably not going to 
work.)
...
> Some 
> ingredients will have to do with the different jet 
> technology and the head's materials they come in contact with.

Yes, very much so I suspect.  Have you compared or seen anything 
relating to the viscosity of the HP inks to Epson's?


> The use of Vivera inks (or V7 mixes made of them :-) in 
> piëzohead designs must be possible ...

I see we're thinking alike.  I've ordered some grey to check out.

> The higher water content may be an obstacle 
> given their use in a piëzohead.

I'll check viscosity first.  It it is close, we'll see how the grey 
prints in an Epson.

> You gave the MSDS sheets for 
> all monochromes but the gloss enhancer which could be a part 
> of a V7 mix. 

The Gloss Enhander is at
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/environment/productdata/pdf
/ij_c9447a_us_eng_v1.pdf

The full list of MSDSs is at 
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/environment/productdata/ijm
sdsuseng.html?jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN

The gloss enhancer is slightly different than the inks.  There are 
some polymer salts in it that might make it not work as a dilution 
base, but I'm sure I don't know.  It would probably be a lot faster 
for me to try "give it a spin" and see what happens.


> There's a reason for using piëzoheads as the alternative 
> quad drivers (QTR for example) for HP models do not exist. ..

Also, there are a lot of old Epsons out there that people might be 
able to turn into very good carbon printers.  I've got the K and 2% 
ends fairly nailed for my matte 100% carbon tastes, but for the older 
large format printers the middle densities are presenting some 
problems.  If the HP greys look good, they might be a solution.  
We'll see.

Did you also notice the very low amount of carbon in the HP ink?  
They claim their pigments are simply darker.  I know that is one area 
where advances were on the horizon.  In any case, the small amount of 
carbon makes me curious about the longevity.  I know the Wilhelm 
ratings are excellent, but that could be in due to HP's ability to do 
greater grey substitution in color and none at all in B&W.  I also 
expect that coating technology will ultimately advance to the point 
where the coatings are oxygen barriers.  What I'll do is run a test 
of the a diluted Eboni against an equal density of the HP grey and 
see how they compare.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Might be able to? I've had three old Epsons, including a killer mono
10K with them running with Piezography and QTR and Studio Print for
years. I'm going add a 9600 after the holidays for special mixes. You
buy these inks in bottle form and use funnel fill carts and they are
amazing and even in Epson printers they don't clog at all. As much as
I like the Vivera inks, for matte papers the K7 is way more beautiful
and subtle tonalities, and available in many hues now. I don't see
anything that touches it.

john

> Also, there are a lot of old Epsons out there that people might be 
> able to turn into very good carbon printers.  I've got the K and 2% 
> ends fairly nailed for my matte 100% carbon tastes, but for the older 
> large format printers the middle densities are presenting some 
> problems.  If the HP greys look good, they might be a solution.  
> We'll see.

an emphatic ditto. Last spring Paul sent me a print using one of his
K6 setups that was in the same realm. Otherwise for matte, everything
else is playing catch-up.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>
> Might be able to? I've had three old Epsons, including a killer mono
> 10K with them running with Piezography and QTR and Studio Print for
> years. I'm going add a 9600 after the holidays for special mixes. You
> buy these inks in bottle form and use funnel fill carts and they are
> amazing and even in Epson printers they don't clog at all. As much as
> I like the Vivera inks, for matte papers the K7 is way more beautiful
> and subtle tonalities, and available in many hues now. I don't see
> anything that touches it.
> 
> john
> 
> > Also, there are a lot of old Epsons out there that people might be 
> > able to turn into very good carbon printers.  I've got the K and 2% 
> > ends fairly nailed for my matte 100% carbon tastes, but for the older 
> > large format printers the middle densities are presenting some 
> > problems.  If the HP greys look good, they might be a solution.  
> > We'll see.
>

pr_roark wrote:

> 
> Did you also notice the very low amount of carbon in the HP ink?  
> They claim their pigments are simply darker.  I know that is one area 
> where advances were on the horizon.  In any case, the small amount of 
> carbon makes me curious about the longevity.  I know the Wilhelm 
> ratings are excellent, but that could be in due to HP's ability to do 
> greater grey substitution in color and none at all in B&W.  I also 
> expect that coating technology will ultimately advance to the point 
> where the coatings are oxygen barriers.  What I'll do is run a test 
> of the a diluted Eboni against an equal density of the HP grey and 
> see how they compare.  

Paul,

The Vivera B&W ratings are excellent, nothing touches it. I 
know the argument that the long black generation and no 
composite greys suit the Wilhelm and Image Engineering tests 
but on the other hand I have not seen evidence in other test 
results yet that the remaining color mixes degrade faster 
than the primary colors. What has been mentioned here and 
linked to were older dye ink results that went wrong in 
composite greys and secondary mixes. Discussed here  not so 
long ago in relation to catalytic fading. Anyway if the ink 
chemistry and the way to lay them down makes it harder to 
fade the B&W prints without sacrificing image quality then 
HP did a good job. If better test methods show that the 
secondary mixes in color printing still show more fading 
than the primaries then there's work to be done, but it may 
still be better than Epson's ratings. Canon could have done 
or already does the same as HP but the tests score lower 
than HP.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |