Digital BW, The Print

Looks cool.

See Lab readings and scan at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-Grey-EEM.jpg

(The 1800 always bands a little with only one channel firing.)

A 100% carbon variable tone glossy and matte inkset just might be 
possible for our Epson printers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

pr_roark wrote:
> Looks cool.
> 
> See Lab readings and scan at 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-Grey-EEM.jpg
> 
> (The 1800 always bands a little with only one channel firing.)
> 
> A 100% carbon variable tone glossy and matte inkset just might be 
> possible for our Epson printers.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 

The HP sample looks neutral on my screen :-)

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Dear Paul,

Really interesting. Please tell more.

Peter

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: 9. december 2008 08:58
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] HP Z3100 Vivera Grey in R1800

 

Looks cool.

See Lab readings and scan at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-Grey-EEM.jpg

(The 1800 always bands a little with only one channel firing.)

A 100% carbon variable tone glossy and matte inkset just might be 
possible for our Epson printers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter,

> > See [Vivera Grey] Lab readings and scan at 
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-Grey-EEM.jpg
> > ... 
> > A 100% carbon variable tone glossy and matte inkset just 
> > might be possible for our Epson printers.


> Really interesting. Please tell more.

A really large and very good elephant has entered our B&W arena, and 
from what I've seen so far, I'd say it -- HP -- has lived up to its 
reputation for outstating R&D.  I'm definitely not opposed to using 
HP ink if it works in the printers I'm interested in and does a great 
job.  So, I'm going to be looking at what, if anything, HP has 
brought to the party that we who like to do our own thing can use.

My initial reaction is that they probably have the very best cool 
grey inks at this point.  As such, the logical starting place for me 
would be to simply substitute it for the cool channel of UT14, with 
MIS warm carbon in the warm channel and glop in the Y position.

I'll do some rudimentary compatibility testing first, but the only 
way to really know what will happen is set up a system and see how it 
runs.  So, I'll probably do just that.

In general, I'll stick with off the shelf inks for now.  While the 
viscosity of the HP ink is on the low side for the Epson printers, 
it's not the lowest I've tested and used.  So, I think it's probably 
within range.

For the 1400 UT14-HP all I need is the grey and PK.  The 1.5 pl drop 
gives me smooth enough prints without the LLK (Light Grey).  The K2 
and K3 printers would want to add that lighter ink, however.

I do think the ink needs to be fade tested.  I don't doubt Wilhelm's 
outstanding testing of it at all, and I'll go ahead and start setting 
up a system before the results of the fade testing are in.  Howver, a 
comparison to what I can do with cheap MIS inks would be of value.  
They are very good inks also.

One has to ask how HP gets carbon cool.  The answer is, I believe, 
that it's all about how the edge of the carbon is treated.  My (late) 
brother (PhD in chemistry with a carbon specialization) indicated 
that what is going on at the edge of carbon particles is an entire 
specialty of its own.  It's some real complex stuff.  While I don't 
ever expect to understand it all, what I do know also is that most of 
our fading is oxidation from the edge inward.  So, if the edge is 
where the coolness comes from, then oxygen might get at it and shift 
its colors even if the image stays within the Wilhelm tolerances for 
many centuries.  So, the my fader is going to be dusted off.  

For those who want to do only matte printing, it may be that there 
would be less likelihood for clogging if a matte warm ink was used in 
the warm channel, as opposed to the MIS UT14 glossy compatible inks.  
Here, with the HP cool channel, a C6 approach with Epson UC MK looks 
interesting.  Since we may not need to worry as much about getting a 
print neutral, the extra warmth of the dilute UC MK might be an 
advantage.  What is also an advantage is that it appears to be 
sterically stabilized as opposed to electrostatically stabilized.  
Steric stabilization is not nearly as fussy, and it shows in my 
centrifuge tests.  

I think it's great if we, in fact, have more B&W ink sources now. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I wonder what the Dmax of Vivera MK could be with the 1.5 
picoliter droplet of the R1800 compared to the 6 picoliter 
on the MK head of the Z3100 Z2100 and possibly the B9180 
though the last may have smaller droplets from the same head 
model, no 1.5 at all though.

When the use of quad inks in the Z3100 was discussed on the 
LL forum I mentioned some (2) matte media presets that have 
that MK,PK,MG, LG and the rest of the matte media presets is 
done with MK,MG,LG. I'm now printing newspaper stock for a 
dummy newspaper and the plain paper media preset for it uses 
MK,PK,MG and no LG. Ink limitation 20 compared to up to 60 
for the best quality matte paper coatings. Given the print 
quality, paper "gray" and the fast bleeding of the newspaper 
stock a good choice to drop the LG from the preset.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Ernst,
 
> I wonder what the Dmax of Vivera MK could be with the 1.5 
> picoliter droplet of the R1800 compared to the 6 picoliter 
> on the MK head of the Z3100 ...

What kind of dmax do you get with the Z3100?

Frankly, I was initially planning on just buying a PK cart and 
keeping Eboni as the MK in a 1400 "UT14-HP" setup.  I'd love to get a 
higher dmax, and if there is evidence HP has made a breakthrough 
there also, I might be tempted. 


>... some (2) matte media presets  ... 
> that MK,PK,MG, LG and the rest of the matte media presets is 
> done with MK,MG,LG. 

While there has been some noise about what a great dmax the 3-MK 
approach gets on the 1800, the truth is that it's usually the same as 
what I can get on the 1400 with a rip and a single K.  Arches HP is 
the major exception I've dealt with. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

pr_roark wrote:
> Ernst,
>  
>> I wonder what the Dmax of Vivera MK could be with the 1.5 
>> picoliter droplet of the R1800 compared to the 6 picoliter 
>> on the MK head of the Z3100 ...
> 
> What kind of dmax do you get with the Z3100?

Black and White mode of the Z3100 driver.
On Photorag measured on the QTR 4x21 step target (two extra 
sheets of Photorag underneath it) an average D 1.772 - L 13.77
On EEM same method  D 1.595 - L 18.10

I must have some data from a Colorfoto test of several 
papers and the big three A3 printer models with the Dmax if 
I recall it correctly. B9180 included Will dig for it. Most 
likely measured on ICC controlled color mode which may not 
be optimal for black Dmax.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> 
> Black and White mode of the Z3100 driver.
> On Photorag measured on the QTR 4x21 step target (two extra 
> sheets of Photorag underneath it) an average D 1.772 - L 13.77
> On EEM same method  D 1.595 - L 18.10


Measured the black of several  Z3100 calibration targets 
lying around here that were made over the past months and 
for Photorag they all stay above D 1.7.  Another matte 
coating, Albrecht D\ufffdrer equivalent if not the same, was at D 
1.75. EEM samples D 1.62 and the same for a dual side coated 
190 grams from Magic/Intelicoat.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

I think Eboni can hold it's own, on average, against the HP dmax 
figures.  Right now Eboni is looking like it'll stay my 100% MK.

The first centrifuge test results of a C6-base-diluted (1:2) HP Z3100 
grey are consistent with it being stable. If anything the top of the 
test tube darkened (the pigs floated upward).  This is consistent 
with the higher water content and lower specific gravity of the HP 
ink.  Specific gravity is easy to adjust -- glycerol is heavy, glycol 
medium, water light.    

My first Iflord Gold Silk HP Grey test print has loads of bronzing, 
and it's a bit cold for me.  HP pigs need a warm carbon toner -- 
that's easy.  LLK &/or LK from UC 7600 or MIS are possible, as is 
dilute UC MK for matte, and probably others. 

Note that Epson gloss optimizer uses lots of glycerol.  So does the 
C6 base.    

We may not make the flowers, but arranging them looks promising. 


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 







--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> Ernst Dinkla wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Black and White mode of the Z3100 driver.
> > On Photorag measured on the QTR 4x21 step target (two extra 
> > sheets of Photorag underneath it) an average D 1.772 - L 13.77
> > On EEM same method  D 1.595 - L 18.10
> 
> 
> Measured the black of several  Z3100 calibration targets 
> lying around here that were made over the past months and 
> for Photorag they all stay above D 1.7.  Another matte 
> coating, Albrecht Dürer equivalent if not the same, was at D 
> 1.75. EEM samples D 1.62 and the same for a dual side coated 
> 190 grams from Magic/Intelicoat.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

This evidence is probably way too shaky to make any decisions on, but I 
see enough to raise a yellow flag with respect to the HP grey ink. 
First, the bottle that I had some in shows the same magenta stain on 
the sides that I'd expect with a blended carbon-color pigment ink.  
I've never seen this type of stain on a container that had 100% carbon 
ink in it.  Second, in a very rough, quicky fade test the HP grey ink 
sample is the only one that is showing measurable warming so far.  

All I'm suggesting at this point is that the HP grey ink needs serious 
comparative fade testing against our current dedicated B&W approaches, 
and it may be way to early to throw out our current B&W approaches.  HP 
may not be 10 feet tall after all.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I have HP Vivera (Z3100) grey ink (about like a cool LK) in an 1800 and 
can print test strips for people who might be interested in conducting 
formal or informal comparative fade tests.  Contact me off list.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

To update my quick and dirty comparative fade test of Vivera grey v. 
Eb6, MIS LK, and 3D-LKn, they are all so stable that I can't see any 
reason to worry about any of them.  This was just a draw-down, which is 
not smooth enough and uniform enough to draw much information from.

I assume at this point the HP greys are so stable that I may continue 
to see what they might be useful for.  The ability to make an open 
source, neutral gloss and matte inkset that is cheap has a certain 
amount of appeal.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Interesting stuff. BTW Any more evidence of magenta stains with the
Vivera Gray?

Dario

Dario wrote:
>
> Interesting stuff. BTW Any more evidence of magenta stains with the
> Vivera Gray?

The bottle some HP grey was is has a magenta stain on it just like 
the blended or "shaded", neutralized carbon inks I've mixed.  So, 
that remains evidence of some type of coloring.

However, the quick and dirty fade test is too close -- too little 
change -- to draw any conclusions.  The initial movements of HP grey, 
Eboni-6 (18%), MIS LK, and MIS 3D LKN are very small.  None of the 
samples showed a Lab L change.  All arguably got slightly cooler, but 
with the MIS 3D LKn actually showing the least change.  But, I know 
it has colors in it that are not as stable as carbon and it should be 
warming.  It is, relative to the others, but for some reason the 
others -- 2 or which I've been told are "100% carbon" are actually 
getting cooler.  One possibility is that the edge effect stabilizing 
substances are warm and burning off, but on the 3D this effect is 
being offset by the colors also fading.  It's just too close to say 
what is going on in terms of fading or color shifts.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I ran a centrifuge test on few alternative bases for diluting the HP 
PK.  I included the un-altered HP Grey in the test for a control or 
standard against which to measure the results.  The most surprising 
result of the test is that the HP Grey settled significantly more 
than my dilutions of the PK.  (24 times the change of the buffered 
new base I'm working on.)  This probably because HP has to stay with 
a lower viscosity ink for the thermal heads.  It suggests to me that 
Epson may still have a bit of an advantage on this front.

(Does the HP Z3200 have a way to agitate its carts continuously?)

Other results of interest were that the buffered base was more stable 
than an otherwise identical un-buffered version of the base, 
consistent with the dogma that electrostatic stabilization is pH 
sensitive.  

On the other hand, the sample diluted with the old, un-buffered 
Carbon-6 base was also very stable, perhaps due to it's slightly 
higher viscosity and specific gravity.  It had a higher glycerol 
content that any of the other samples.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

pr_roark wrote:

> (Does the HP Z3200 have a way to agitate its carts continuously?)

The carts are 130 ml on the Z3100/Z3200 and within each is a 
membrane pump that pumps the ink out from beneath the ink 
content, the same pump also stirs that ink content above it, 
more when it can not pump ink away to the head and less when 
the ink can flow away to the head. There will be a valve in 
each ink channel that opens on demand like there are on the 
air pressurised models of Epson. I knew about the cart pump 
but wasn't sure about its ink stirring so I just cut the top 
of an empty cart, rinsed the ink out and put clear water in. 
Actuating the pump a plume of black ink (left in the pump 
chamber) came from the bottom, less with a syringe needle in 
the outlet, more without the needle. The Z models go in 
sleep mode when idle but will awake several times a day to 
check nozzles etc and it is likely that the pumps are 
actuated then.

Whether thermal heads need lower viscosity inks has to be 
seen. The HP Latex printer introduced on the Drupa 2008 had 
thermoheads to my surprise. HP has a pi\ufffdzohead design of its 
own but decided to use a thermal head.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

 
> The carts are 130 ml on the Z3100/Z3200

I was able to pull 140 grams of ink from the Z3100 PK cart.  At $67, 
it's more than I like to pay for ink, but a 30% dilution for "LK" the 
HP ink cost is right down where it ought to be, and at another 30% 
dilution for LLK, it's less than any commercially available ink.

> ... pump also stirs that ink content above it, ...

I thought HP would not let a settling problem go unsolved.

>... The Z models go in 
> sleep mode when idle but will awake several times a day to 
> check nozzles etc and it is likely that the pumps are 
> actuated then.

I suspect checking the nozzles is actually secondary to stirring the 
ink, but they probably don't want to advertise that issue.

> ... HP has a piëzohead design of its own 
> but decided to use a thermal head.
> 

They can, apparently, use semiconductor fabrication technology for 
the thermal heads, which is a huge cost advantage.


For the HP-based B&W inkset I'm considering, it looks like I'll end 
up with 2 dilution bases.  The target glycol & glycerol mix is the 
Epson MK 15% for each. To get there, however, I'll use more in a 
first 1:1 mix with the HP PK.  After that the same 15%-15% base can 
be use for the other dilutions, working from the 1:1 mix.  

Contrary to my comment above, I'm not targeting the LK-LLK standards 
at all (where the traditional 30% dilution is very close with HP 
PK).  I'm working initially to a simple 4-dilution spread: 50%, 20%, 
10%, and 5%.  That leaves 2 spots for K (Eboni or any PK) and a warm 
carbon toner in the Y position (probably MIS or UC K2 LLK for glossy 
or an "LLK" equivalent diluted UC MK for matte, which is my 
interest).  I do need a warm toner to overcome the HP PK's too-cold 
tone for my tastes.

The buffering with TEA and citric acid seems to work.  I dilute both 
to 10% solutions first.  Then a 10 TEA to 1 Citric acid ratio seems 
to hit the target pH.  

1% Edwal LFN wetting agent, in addition to the Photo Flo percentage 
used in the C6 mix, seems to give the final enough surfactant that 
it's printing smoothly in the 1400 -- on both matte and glossy papers.

I'll publish the complete formula later, but so far so good.

It pains me a bit to move away from a 100% carbon approach, but I 
think the settling problems with the Eboni/Carbon-6 are major 
problems for large format users.  (No problems with the desktop 
printers.) 

Frankly, the move to an HP based inkset allows me to use un-
brightened paper, which I vastly prefer.  So, while I won't be able 
to hit the 100% carbon target with this approach, the overall HP + 
non-OBA paper will actually be more stable over my lifetime due to 
the lack of those OBAs, which are by far the main source of tonal 
instability with either a 100% carbon or HP grey approach.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On 24/01/2009 pr_roark wrote:
> The most surprising 
> result of the test is that the HP Grey settled significantly more 
> than my dilutions of the PK.

HP claim their electrostatic encapsulation of pigment maintains dispersion 
and prevents settling. This may be overwhelmed by a centrifuge, giving a 
result that does not reflect real life.

-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...> wrote:

> On 24/01/2009 pr_roark wrote: ...
> > The most surprising result of the test is that the HP 
> > Grey settled significantly more than my dilutions of the HP PK.
 
> HP claim their electrostatic encapsulation of pigment 
> maintains dispersion and prevents settling.

All inkjet pigments have some form of stabilization coating, even if 
just an un-attached surfactant.  These stop 
flocculation/agglomeration, but the carbon-based pigments are still 
heavier than water or the base/medium that is likely used.  Brownian 
motion will help and may be enough to keep the very smallest 
particles from settling, but from what I can tell, all of our 
pigmented inks have particles that will ultimately settle or separate 
if not agitated.  The higher the viscosity of the medium or dilutant, 
the slower they settle.  Specific gravity of the medium is also a 
factor.  However, the bottom line is that even with an outstanding 
stabilization coating, our pigments are still subject to settlement 
or stratification (particularly multi-pigment mixes) in the medium if 
left still for long enough.

So, while I think HP has an excellent stabilization system, I doubt 
that by itself is enough.  My tests indicate their grey ink likely 
settles with time.  It appears, however, that HP has taken steps to 
deal with that issue.  I certainly would not worry about it if you 
have or are considering buying an HP printer.

> This may be overwhelmed by a centrifuge, giving a 
> result that does not reflect real life.

My real world sample comparisons are not that many, but to the extent 
I've been able to compare long term settlement in bottles to the 
results of the centrifuge, they do correlate rather well.  The 
centrifuge is basically just subjecting the samples to 6000 G's and 
thus accelerating whatever gravity would do.  If anything, I suspect 
it under estimates problems because the longer time in a bottle would 
allow more flocculation/agglomeration if it were going to occur, and 
the centrifuge has some vibration which probably tends to mix the 
samples a bit.

Keep in mind that when I say the HP grey pigs settled much more than 
some of the latest dilutions I'd mixed, I'm still looking at only 
about a 5% change over what is probably equivalent to 4 months of 
being still in a bottle.  This is not a major problem.  But I'm 
looking at less that a 0.2% change in some of the HP dilutions I'm 
testing.  With this new tool and the best input pigments, I hope to 
make some mixes that are very stable even in wide format printers -- 
which has been a problem in the past.  We should not have to agitate 
our carts regularly.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

pr_roark wrote:
>  Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
> 
>  
>> The carts are 130 ml on the Z3100/Z3200
> 
> I was able to pull 140 grams of ink from the Z3100 PK cart.  At $67, 
> it's more than I like to pay for ink, but a 30% dilution for "LK" the 
> HP ink cost is right down where it ought to be, and at another 30% 
> dilution for LLK, it's less than any commercially available ink.

Correct, they are in fact overfilled and when declared empty 
you can be sure that you got the 130 ml.
That wasn't so in the past with other manufacturers.
The Twin packs = 260 ml are at 0.30 Eurocents (0.40 
Dollarcent) a ml without VAT.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

The HP Z-series of printers has a built-in ink agitation system. The
base of the cart has a soft "rubber bung" that is periodically
agitated by the printer. This serves to help keep the pigments in
suspension.

Also, since the printer has a built-in Spectro, it prompts you to
"recalibrate" your media periodically. This is not to be confused with
making a new profile. (which the printer also can do)

With these two capabilities with in the printer and the "relatively
small" ink carts (130 ml), I have yet to notice any deviance in
printing results in the 9 months I have used the printer. Of course
Ernst has been using his for over 2 years now.

It is my understanding that thermal inks have a slightly less viscious
consistency compared with piezo inks. Hopefully in mixing with a piezo
base during dilution, and the inherently more "forgiving" nature of
the piezo print head, printing characteristics of the diluted inks
should be satisfactory. But of course use of a base different from
HP's might explain why Paul is seeing some settling of his dilutions.
HP ink has quite a "unique" odor, due to the co-solvents and glycols
they employ.

John Nollendorfs

   
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
> Tony Sleep <TonySleep@> wrote:
> 
> > On 24/01/2009 pr_roark wrote: ...
> > > The most surprising result of the test is that the HP 
> > > Grey settled significantly more than my dilutions of the HP PK.
>  
> > HP claim their electrostatic encapsulation of pigment 
> > maintains dispersion and prevents settling.
> 
> All inkjet pigments have some form of stabilization coating, even if 
> just an un-attached surfactant.  These stop 
> flocculation/agglomeration, but the carbon-based pigments are still 
> heavier than water or the base/medium that is likely used.  Brownian 
> motion will help and may be enough to keep the very smallest 
> particles from settling, but from what I can tell, all of our 
> pigmented inks have particles that will ultimately settle or separate 
> if not agitated.  The higher the viscosity of the medium or dilutant, 
> the slower they settle.  Specific gravity of the medium is also a 
> factor.  However, the bottom line is that even with an outstanding 
> stabilization coating, our pigments are still subject to settlement 
> or stratification (particularly multi-pigment mixes) in the medium if 
> left still for long enough.
> 
> So, while I think HP has an excellent stabilization system, I doubt 
> that by itself is enough.  My tests indicate their grey ink likely 
> settles with time.  It appears, however, that HP has taken steps to 
> deal with that issue.  I certainly would not worry about it if you 
> have or are considering buying an HP printer.

>... use of a base different from HP's might explain why Paul 
> is seeing some settling of his dilutions.

The results are the opposite.  The dilutions with the higher viscosity 
base settle significantly less than the HP OEM grey ink (which is not 
bad either).

> HP ink has quite a "unique" odor, due to the co-solvents and 
> glycols they employ.

It smells like latex paint to me.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

pr_roark wrote:

>> HP ink has quite a "unique" odor, due to the co-solvents and 
>> glycols they employ.
> 
> It smells like latex paint to me.

The HP Latex pages describe the cosolvents (next to water) 
of that outdoor ink type as being very similar to the ones 
used in the "normal" aqueous inks. They solve the issue of 
burning in of ink in the thermal heads as well which allows 
far more ink to be squirted in time by a nozzle than used to 
be possible in the past. Up to 32 liters now. Latex is a 
term used for a wide variety of (co)polymers so it doesn't 
tell much of what is used in the printers but there could be 
more than the cosolvents that are shared between the printer 
models.

http://www.signweb.com/index.php/channel/2/id/2879

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2008/predrupa/wp_HPLatexInks.pdf

there must be an MSDS for the Latex inks.

I have some samples of the Latex prints on vinyl, paper etc. 
The 120 picoliter droplet doesn't deliver the same detail we 
are used to but it is excellent for the sign market the 
printers are intended for. I wonder however whether a 
varnish-gloss enhancer could be based on the same technology 
and used on the prints we make.
The transparency may be lower though but the surface will be 
a lot tougher.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Updating my experiments with dilute HP PK, the bottom line is that 
it's working fine so far.  

I've tried a number of different bases -- buffered and complex as 
well as the simple C6 base (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-
Mixing.pdf ).  Frankly, I'm not sure the more complex ones are worth 
the effort, although 1% Edwal LFN wetting agent will be needed for 
1.5 picoliter printers.

The C6 base is working best for the 50% dilution, in part, because 
on, for example, Crane Silver Rag even the 50% dilution prints with a 
dmax of 2.19.  So, while a true PK will do better, it's not going to 
be worth my time or money to bother with one.

Currently I have the HP-C6 in a 220.  The Y position is MIS LLK, and 
the K position is Eboni.  The 4 dilutions of HP PK are 50%, 20%, 10%, 
and 5%.  It prints with either the Epson driver or QTR, on matte or 
glossy paper. 

The tone with the Epson driver and no curves is relatively neutral, 
with the MIS LLK offsetting the too-cool (for me) HP PK native tone. 

So far so good. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've put the information relating to my dilute HP Vivera PK inkset, 
which I call "HP-C6" at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf 

So far so good.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I read your paper.

 

Could the entire dilution be made with HP Vivera PK?  

 

Is the issue the cost of HP  ink being 4 times the price of Eboni  or is
there some other issue with doing this? 

 

What type of dmax are you getting on Matt paper with your formula? 

 

 

Thanks,  

Gary Wagner

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 11:06 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] HP Z3100 Vivera PK Inkset ("HP-C6")

 

I've put the information relating to my dilute HP Vivera PK inkset, 
which I call "HP-C6" at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf 

So far so good.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Gary Wagner" <gcwagner@...> wrote:


> Could the entire dilution be made with HP Vivera PK? 

I'm not sure what you mean here.  
In http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf I describe one 
possible inkset that uses 4 dilutions of the HP PK, with Eboni being 
the MK and an MIS LK being used as a warm carbon toner.  One could 
use just the HP PK dilutions if cool shadows are preferred.  Or, as 
suggested in the PDF, one could set up parallel LK-LLK density 
dilutions for a warm/cool channel system.

 
> Is the issue the cost of HP  ink being 4 times the price 
> of Eboni  or is there some other issue with doing this?

Cost is one big factor.  However, the thermal head printers like HP's 
use a lower viscosity ink than the Epson printers.  So, one thing I'm 
doing with the C6 base is raising the viscosity to the Epson range.  

This also holds the pigments in suspension better.  HP apparently has 
a system of mixing its pigments in the carts rather continuously, 
which is a feature most of at least the older Epson wide format 
printers lack, and will not need with this dilution system.  While 
the HP pigments do not settle at a rate that I think is a serious 
problem, they don't appear to settle hardly at all with the heavier, 
thicker C6 base.

Additionally, the C6 dilution base has been very clog free.  I 
believe this is due to the high glycerol content and lack of any 
binder.  I suspect the diluted HP pigments will clog less than the 
stock ones.  Again, most of us do not have a printer that stays on 
and runs nozzle checks automatically every so often. 

> What type of dmax are you getting on Matt paper with your formula? 

It's standard Eboni MK, so nothing changes there.  Based on some dmax 
figures Ernst provided, I think Eboni is still very competitive.  
With the new Premier Art Generations Alise line of papers, by the 
way, mid 1.70's are very realistic.  On HPR 1.70 - 1.72 is 
normal.  "EEM" - UPPM hits 1.68- 1.7.  Lots of papers are in the mid-
160's.  I generally will not use a matte paper that is below 1.6.


I try to make the best inkset I can for my own uses, given the 
materials that are available to me.  Cost and quality are both major 
factors.  Additionally, I really dislike clogged or otherwise high-
maintenance printers -- and mine sit idle a lot.  The HP-C6 looks 
like a very promising alternative for the neutral B&W prints I 
prefer.  But, it also has not sat in an idle printer for a month.  
So, it'll be a while before I know for sure whether I want to load it 
into my 7500.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com