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Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-10 by namibiajohnston

I do my own framing, and printing to A3+ 13 x 19. I have had some 
prints done at the 24 x 36 size and I cannot get them to stay flat 
once framed. I have tried minimal fixing via tape the matt board and 
maximum by using spray fix to the foam core backing. Either way they 
move and wrinkle and are thus unusable. Bear in mind that where I live 
it's really hot, sometimes hot and dry and some times hot and humid. I 
live in the middle of now where so whatever solutions are offered try 
and keep that in mind.....

Thanks

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-10 by pr_roark

"namibiajohnston" <chris@...> wrote:
>
> I do my own framing, and printing to A3+ 13 x 19. I have had some 
> prints done at the 24 x 36 size and I cannot get them to stay flat 
> once framed. ...

Do you print on matte or glossy paper?  I use mostly matte paper in 
part to avoid this problem.  When I tape hang them behind an overmat 
they may not be totally flat, but the matte finish hides the problem.  
With glossy papers I dry mount them like I always did with silver 
prints.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-10 by Eric Neilsen

Chris, Describe the entire frame; backing, water/dust barrier, amount of
paper under the matte.  

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
namibiajohnston
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 3:59 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

 

I do my own framing, and printing to A3+ 13 x 19. I have had some 
prints done at the 24 x 36 size and I cannot get them to stay flat 
once framed. I have tried minimal fixing via tape the matt board and 
maximum by using spray fix to the foam core backing. Either way they 
move and wrinkle and are thus unusable. Bear in mind that where I live 
it's really hot, sometimes hot and dry and some times hot and humid. I 
live in the middle of now where so whatever solutions are offered try 
and keep that in mind.....

Thanks

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-10 by Mark Rogers

Assuming you only have a two or three hinge points at the top when t-
hinge mounting, you might consider trying different, and especially 
heavier paper. Some environments, especially coastal with high humidity 
are just notorious for paper curl. In those cases you may want to 
consider permanent dry mounting or roller mounting. In both cases, the 
use of a press or roller is recommended to get all of the air out and 
to fully activate the adhesive. On smaller prints this process can be 
done by hand with skill, but as the print size increases, the right 
equipment becomes more important.

Cheers,
Mark
http://blog.framedestination.com/
http://www.framedestination.com/


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "namibiajohnston" 
<chris@...> wrote:
>
> I do my own framing, and printing to A3+ 13 x 19. I have had some 
> prints done at the 24 x 36 size and I cannot get them to stay flat 
> once framed. I have tried minimal fixing via tape the matt board and 
> maximum by using spray fix to the foam core backing. Either way they 
> move and wrinkle and are thus unusable. Bear in mind that where I 
live 
> it's really hot, sometimes hot and dry and some times hot and humid. 
I 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> live in the middle of now where so whatever solutions are offered try 
> and keep that in mind.....
> 
> Thanks
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-10 by Ted Shaw

Paul, could you please explain how you dry mount your prints and what equipment you use? I'm doing work for a small museum and am trying to sort out this.

Thanks,

Ted Shaw
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: pr_roark 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 1:37 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.


  "namibiajohnston" <chris@...> wrote:
  >
  > I do my own framing, and printing to A3+ 13 x 19. I have had some 
  > prints done at the 24 x 36 size and I cannot get them to stay flat 
  > once framed. ...

  Do you print on matte or glossy paper? I use mostly matte paper in 
  part to avoid this problem. When I tape hang them behind an overmat 
  they may not be totally flat, but the matte finish hides the problem. 
  With glossy papers I dry mount them like I always did with silver 
  prints.

  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com 



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-11 by pr_roark

"Ted Shaw" <tedshaw@...> wrote:
>
> Paul, could you please explain how you dry mount your prints
> and what equipment you use? ...

I basically use the old Technal dry mount press, procedures and 
materials that I've used for years for silver prints.  I use Seal 
color mount to keep the temperature as low as possible.  I usually 
have sprayed the glossy print with Print Shield to give it a little 
more protection and wipe out the reflective artifacts.  I also use 
release paper.  I press onto a Light Impressions acid free mat board 
for about 1 minute at the Seal recommended temperature.  

Frankly, I don't like to dry mount things, but if I have used glossy 
paper, then it's the only way I think they look good and are 
considered "archival."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 






> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: pr_roark 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 1:37 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.
> 
> 
>   "namibiajohnston" <chris@> wrote:
>   >
>   > I do my own framing, and printing to A3+ 13 x 19. I have had 
some 
>   > prints done at the 24 x 36 size and I cannot get them to stay 
flat 
>   > once framed. ...
> 
>   Do you print on matte or glossy paper? I use mostly matte paper 
in 
>   part to avoid this problem. When I tape hang them behind an 
overmat 
>   they may not be totally flat, but the matte finish hides the 
problem. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>   With glossy papers I dry mount them like I always did with silver 
>   prints.
> 
>   Paul
>   www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-12 by chris Johnston

I use 3mm foam core and 1.5mm mat board in aluminum frames.
I have tried using only scotch tape to fix the prints to the
mats at four to 6 points and I have tried to fix the prints
to the foam core using spray tack. I have also tried to use
a full sheet of mat board between the print and the foam
core. All the permutations have moved..I have not tried just
fixing the prints to the mat board along the top edge.

Don't give me to bad a time on my technique if I have it
wrong, I'm self taught and if you look at a map you'll see
I'm around the corner from the back of beyond and I simply
do not have access to most services for assistance on this
kind of work. 

I am not certain if there is even a dry mounting machine at
the 24 x 36" size in the entire country which would likely
mean shipping to South Africa and risking the damage that
comes with that..

Thanks for all your help

Christopher L. Johnston

Omaruru Namibia

chris@...

  

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-12 by arlenelove3@aol.com

Chris, I have used Scotch Positionable Mounting Adhesive to keep a large  
print flat without a mat. The box says "photo safe", but I doubt it's  archival.  
It's easy to use and with care, can be undone. When I was  working in a  
location without access to sophisticated materials, I used a  thin acrylic polymer 
medium to glue the whole print to mat board. It  eventually showed bubbles, 
but with extreme care it might work.
                 Good luck,
                  Arlene
**************New year...new news.  Be the first to know what is making 
headlines. (http://news.aol.com?ncid=emlcntusnews00000002)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-12 by djon43

One easy-to-use traditional answer is "Yes Glue". A white paste, it
actively pulls the art flat to the surface without a lot of rubbing
and pressure (unlike rubber cement alternatives).

"Yes" probably isn't "archival" (ie 100+ years without change) but
that's obviously not your concern if you're willing to use Foam Core
or a dry mount press (both of which are inherently non-archival no
matter what the manufacturers claim). 

"Yes Glue" is plenty good for longterm exhibitions and display, has
been used forever in museums, makes less mess than spray cements and
cleans up a lot easier (water soluble). Goes on white, turns clear.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "namibiajohnston"
<chris@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I do my own framing, and printing to A3+ 13 x 19. I have had some 
> prints done at the 24 x 36 size and I cannot get them to stay flat 
> once framed. I have tried minimal fixing via tape the matt board and 
> maximum by using spray fix to the foam core backing. Either way they 
> move and wrinkle and are thus unusable. Bear in mind that where I live 
> it's really hot, sometimes hot and dry and some times hot and humid. I 
> live in the middle of now where so whatever solutions are offered try 
> and keep that in mind.....
> 
> Thanks
>

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing 101)

2009-01-13 by Randy Rancier

I have recently taken a week long class in framing for professional framers and I currently 
work at a frameshop and gallery and I am considering opening my own gallery and 
frameshop; take that for whatever it's worth.

Without a doubt the best way to keep a print flat is is by dry mounting it to any stiff board, 
i.e. foamcore, Rag board, gatorboard, etc....  I believe that dry mounting to a high quality 
Rag board should be considered archival if that is something you are concerned with; it 
was good enough for Edward Weston, Ansel Adams and the like and is accepted by 
Museums.  However I prefer not to drymount prints 13 x 19 and smaller because they 
shouldn't need it as long as they are printed on some good heavy "Fine Art" papers.

For a print 24 x 36 the only practical method to keep a print this size flat is going to be to 
either dry mount it, for the most archival solution, or mount it using some kind of 
adhesive or glue.

For those interested in archival mounting I will briefly discribe the most commonly used 
methods below in order of highest level of permanence or what is considered the most 
archival method first:

1. Print attached to museum rag board using T-hinge made of Mulberry Paper and glued 
with a special starch paste.  It holds very well and is easily reversible. (this method is for 
Masterpieces and the parinoid}

2. Print attached using T-hinge of "gummed" linen or paper tape which must be moisted 
with water.  Very strong and also reversible. (I am comfortable with this method)

3.  T-hinge or simple hinge using acid free framers tape, which can be made of linen or 
plastic (probably a type of mylar).  Even though this method uses "Acid-Free" materials 
isn't really considered by most experts to be "Archival" since the adhesives are not water soluble and contain sticky tackifiers (yes this is really a word) which even though they are 
acid free can be difficult to remove and can leave a residue.  Just because something is 
"Acide_Free" doesn't always make it Archival.

4. While dry mounting should never be used on an original work of art unless done so by 
the artist himself; which then, like all of the well preserved Weston and  Adams prints, is 
considered to be apart of the original artwork.  I feel this ranks up with the first two 
methods if done properly and is mounted on a high quality Acid-Free and Lignin-Free Rag 
or Alpha Cellulose board.  Rag is always considered best and buffered boards are 
considered somewhat better than non-buffered ones.

Lignin is a substance in wood and is in all paper that is made from wood unless it has 
gone through a special process that removes it.  Alpha cellulose papers that are lignin free 
have gone through this process.  Lignin will eventually turn paper yellow or brown.  Acid 
and Lignin can migrate through air spaces (airborne) and other materials

Mats should always be used on artwork of value.  Mats of the same material as what the 
print is mounted to would be best and as a minimum should be Acid/lignin free if permanence is a concern.

If wooden frames are used in order for it to be considered "Archival the insides of the 
frames must be sealed; lignin remember!.  First choice in sealers would be framers 
shellac, second a metal framers tape, third would be regular framers tape.

Glass, often refered to as "Glazing" should be a UV filtered glass or acrylic, also referred to 
as "Conservation Glass or Acrylic" which filters out about 98% of UV rays; unless 
permanance or fading is not a concern.  This is especially important if the image is 
displayed near a window or floresent lights are used near the image.  Glass should never 
come into direct contact with artwork of value, thus the use of a mat.  I especially prefer 
acrylic because it is much lighter on larger pieces and the concern of damaging the print if 
the glass get broken.  Prints should never be shipped if framed with glass, a disaster 
waiting to happen, and it happens all the time.  Museum glass and acrylic have the same 
UV filtering properties as UV or Conservation Glass

It is always better to use some type of moisture barrier material behind the mount board, 
which Tyvek is considered to be the best material since it is acid/lignin free.  This should 
only be used if all of the materials used in framing are Acid/Lignin free materials and 
wooden frames have been seal properly.  Otherwise, you will be sealing in these chemicals 
and will eventually degrade the print.  I feel this is especially important if you are using 
metal frames since backing paper isn't typically used on metal frames.  Acid-Free backing 
paper which is usually black in color should be used on wooden frames if permanence is a 
concern.

My preferences are to use one of the first two mounting methods with 13 x 19 and smaller 
prints. Dry mount larger prints on buffered Rag (8 ply) board; it won't stay flat 
permanently otherwise. Mat using the (8 ply) Rag boards. Use tyvek behind the mount 
board.  I consider metal frames to be more "Archival" than wood frames, but certain prints 
in the right wood frame can be stunning, so don't rule wooden frames out if framed 
properly.

I have omitted some of the finer points but that is basically Framing 101 in a nutshell


Randy

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing 101)

2009-01-13 by E Neilsen

Randy, I recommend that you review the use of acid free and buffered board
for use with various media. For some photo prints, this is VERY important.
From my early experience with some Ink Jet papers it is also quite important
here as well. I have had several well know brands SEVERLY yellow with some
acid free boards; specific mounting tissue or adhesive is required.

 

The buffer in the boards needs to be used only when the buffering agent will
not act upon the art in a negative way. (cyanotype for instance).

 

But for the most part sound advice. 

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Rancier
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 9:11 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing
101)

 

Rag is always considered best and buffered boards are 
considered somewhat better than non-buffered ones.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing 101)

2009-01-13 by Randy Rancier

Yes this is true, buffered board should not be used with art work that is sensitive to an 
alkaline environment, as some of the older photographic process are.  Be sure to check 
before using a buffered board.  If in doubt use a non-buffered Rag board.  But I believe 
for most of our applications, i.e. digital prints and most modern photographic processes 
that the buffered board is safe and extends the life of most artwork for the length of time 
until all of the calcium carbonate in the board reacts with pollutants and is neutralized.

Thanks for bringing this important issue to light!

Randy Rancier

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Randy, I recommend that you review the use of acid free and buffered board
> for use with various media. For some photo prints, this is VERY important.
> From my early experience with some Ink Jet papers it is also quite important
> here as well. I have had several well know brands SEVERLY yellow with some
> acid free boards; specific mounting tissue or adhesive is required.
> 
>  
> 
> The buffer in the boards needs to be used only when the buffering agent will
> not act upon the art in a negative way. (cyanotype for instance).
> 
>  
> 
> But for the most part sound advice. 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photo
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214 827-8301
> 
>  
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> SKype ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy
> Rancier
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 9:11 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing
> 101)
> 
>  
> 
> Rag is always considered best and buffered boards are 
> considered somewhat better than non-buffered ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing 101)

2009-01-13 by djon43

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Rancier"
<randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
 
> Without a doubt the best way to keep a print flat is is by dry
mounting it to any stiff board, 
> i.e. foamcore, Rag board, gatorboard, etc....  I believe that dry
mounting to a high quality 

Foamcore crumbles with age. You're mounting on something that won't
last twenty years.

> Rag board should be considered archival if that is something you are
concerned with; it 
> was good enough for Edward Weston, Ansel Adams and the like and is
accepted by 
> Museums

People familiar with the breadth of Weston's and Adams' work know that
dry mounted prints are worth less (market price) than unmounted prints
(all photographs are worth less when dry mounted), and that they've
yellowed heavily. 

While I love those old yellowed Westons far more than anything Adams
did, mounted or unmounted, they're heavily and "unacceptably" yellowed
in modern "archival" parlance.

Museums HATE dry mounting. Ask a curator, this is not news.

They do display dry mounted prints by photographers they consider
significant, but dry mounting emphasizes "hobbiest" and "not serious"
otherwise. County fairs and "art shows" have no difficulty with dry
mounting, of course. 


>However I prefer not to drymount prints 13 x 19 and smaller because they 
> shouldn't need it as long as they are printed on some good heavy
"Fine Art" papers.
> 

This is valid for some "good heavy" papers and not for others. Some,
particularly the baryta experiments (that's where they're at) pose
major curvature challenges, particularly in changing humidity.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing 101)

2009-01-13 by Bruce Watson

djon43 wrote:
> People familiar with the breadth of Weston's and Adams' work know that
> dry mounted prints are worth less (market price) than unmounted prints
> (all photographs are worth less when dry mounted), and that they've
> yellowed heavily. 
>   
You must be joking. That's certainly not the case at AIPAD shows, full 
of dealers who know Adams and Weston inside out. I've never seen a 
yellowed dry mounted print from either artist at AIPAD, nor in any of 
the gallery and museum shows I've attended. A lot of Adams and Weston 
shows over the last 30 years.

And it's not my experience that you can see any kind of price 
differential between mounted and unmounted prints. Certainly not at 
AIPAD. And not at my local photography art dealer either.
> While I love those old yellowed Westons far more than anything Adams
> did, mounted or unmounted, they're heavily and "unacceptably" yellowed
> in modern "archival" parlance.
>
> Museums HATE dry mounting. Ask a curator, this is not news.
>   
I have. While not fond of dry mounting because it's not reversible, they 
seem accepting because they recognize that it's just about the only way 
to make a gelatin coated print lay flat and frame well. "Hate" is way 
too strong a word to describe how curators feel. Some curators even like 
dry mounting because it seals the back of the print from atmospheric 
contamination.

To be sure, dry mounting can be badly done. But photographers who know 
what they are doing seldom screw it up.
> They do display dry mounted prints by photographers they consider
> significant, but dry mounting emphasizes "hobbiest" and "not serious"
> otherwise. County fairs and "art shows" have no difficulty with dry
> mounting, of course. 
>   
Now that's just your own particular prejudices showing.

Now for the record, I don't dry mount any of my own work. That's because 
I no longer make silver gelatin prints and my inkjet prints stay flat 
enough and frame well enough with out it. And... I don't have the room 
for a dry mounting press anyway.
--
Bruce Watson

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing 101)

2009-01-13 by Randy Rancier

You've made some good points, you are right though, dry mounting is less desirable than 
attaching prints with T-hinges, but if you want large prints to stay flat and look their 
"best", dry mounting with the proper materials and techniques is probably the best 
technique for me and "should" last as long as the print without degrading the image.  I 
believe is good way to go  and more desirable to me than the alternative of wavy prints.

I tried to point out which of the techniques were archival and which were not, obviously 
any mounting method to anything other than an acid/lignin free Rag or Alpha board isn't 
archival.  Not all things need to be "Archival", which depends on the intended purpose of 
the image.

I do doubt that the yellowing of Weston's prints is due to actually being dry mounted.  
More than likely due to improper washing or the use of improper dry mount materials i.e. 
the board or the dry mount tissue wasn't acid/lignin free.  Could even be due to the 
photographic paper itself not being designed to archival standards, I don't think much 
thought was given to such things back in the 30's & 40's.  Today we are blessed with 
much better materials and research.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43" <djon43@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Rancier"
> <randy_rancier2004@> wrote:
>  
> > Without a doubt the best way to keep a print flat is is by dry
> mounting it to any stiff board, 
> > i.e. foamcore, Rag board, gatorboard, etc....  I believe that dry
> mounting to a high quality 
> 
> Foamcore crumbles with age. You're mounting on something that won't
> last twenty years.
> 
> > Rag board should be considered archival if that is something you are
> concerned with; it 
> > was good enough for Edward Weston, Ansel Adams and the like and is
> accepted by 
> > Museums
> 
> People familiar with the breadth of Weston's and Adams' work know that
> dry mounted prints are worth less (market price) than unmounted prints
> (all photographs are worth less when dry mounted), and that they've
> yellowed heavily. 
> 
> While I love those old yellowed Westons far more than anything Adams
> did, mounted or unmounted, they're heavily and "unacceptably" yellowed
> in modern "archival" parlance.
> 
> Museums HATE dry mounting. Ask a curator, this is not news.
> 
> They do display dry mounted prints by photographers they consider
> significant, but dry mounting emphasizes "hobbiest" and "not serious"
> otherwise. County fairs and "art shows" have no difficulty with dry
> mounting, of course. 
> 
> 
> >However I prefer not to drymount prints 13 x 19 and smaller because they 
> > shouldn't need it as long as they are printed on some good heavy
> "Fine Art" papers.
> > 
> 
> This is valid for some "good heavy" papers and not for others. Some,
> particularly the baryta experiments (that's where they're at) pose
> major curvature challenges, particularly in changing humidity.
>

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing 101)

2009-01-23 by Antonis

Randy,

thanks for an excellent, concise intro to archival framing!

Since you mentioned dry mounting and Adams prints....  I'd like to add
a bit of history:
First, as you say, the term archival isn't just about preventing
yellowing and such, it's also about mounting in a way that is
_reversible_.

Back in the 80's, when I was restoring some original Adams prints I
had to remove them from their dry-mounted board (because they had to
be drum-scanned for a book). I did so by reheating them in a dry mount
press and slowly separating the print from the board.
Not a job for the faint of heart, for sure - the print could have been
torn if the temperature fell below the melting point for the adhesive.
But the important issue here is that the mounting was indeed
"reversible" as well as archival in other ways.

Now, I have been out of the dry mounting business for a while (or of
the un-mounting business!) and don't know what is current. But back
then, Seal offered Fusion 4000 and perhaps other sheets that were made
up of just the adhesive itself (without a tissue to carry the
adhesive) and that adhesive was pH neutral (if memory serves) and
melted at relatively low temperatures. It was quite accepted practice
for silver prints to be dry mounted with such materials. I mention all
this to make the point that "dry mounting" is not monolithic - there
are important variables that can make or break its archival
characteristics.

With inkjet prints, of course, heat is an issue. Yet, I have seen
large B&W inkjets dry-mounted to aluminum and other substrates for
exhibition and sale in high-end galleries. Assuming proper care and
choice of adhesive, dry mounting seems a respectable (and necessary)
way to achieve print flatness in an archival presentation - at least
for those giant prints we seem to make so easily these days!

Antonis

 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Rancier"
<randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
>
> You've made some good points, you are right though, dry mounting is
less desirable than 
> attaching prints with T-hinges, but if you want large prints to stay
flat and look their 
> "best", dry mounting with the proper materials and techniques is
probably the best 
> technique for me and "should" last as long as the print without
degrading the image.  I 
> believe is good way to go  and more desirable to me than the
alternative of wavy prints.
> 
> I tried to point out which of the techniques were archival and which
were not, obviously 
> any mounting method to anything other than an acid/lignin free Rag
or Alpha board isn't 
> archival.  Not all things need to be "Archival", which depends on
the intended purpose of 
> the image.
> 
> I do doubt that the yellowing of Weston's prints is due to actually
being dry mounted.  
> More than likely due to improper washing or the use of improper dry
mount materials i.e. 
> the board or the dry mount tissue wasn't acid/lignin free.  Could
even be due to the 
> photographic paper itself not being designed to archival standards,
I don't think much 
> thought was given to such things back in the 30's & 40's.  Today we
are blessed with 
> much better materials and research.

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-23 by Steven Karafyllakis

Hi Paul;

Interesting to drop back in and find this thread at a time I too have 
had to go back to dry-mounting, which I always hated.

I've had major trouble with the Innova glossy papers and the Red 
River Ultrapro satin, when I've sprayed first. The heat just ruined 
the surface, and no amount of overcoating could hide it. Perhaps I 
just didn't let the premier dry long enough, though I did wait 
overnight. I've had better luck drymounting first, then spaaying, 
which also alows you to protect the matte border showing in the 
window, and your signature. And since I am trimming the print photo-
style, an extra layer of spray along the edge might help keep the 
paper edge from flaking. 

>>  I usually 
> have sprayed the glossy print with Print Shield to give it a little 
> more protection and wipe out the reflective artifacts.  I also use 
> release paper.  I press onto a Light Impressions acid free mat 
board 
> for about 1 minute at the Seal recommended temperature.  
> 
> Frankly, I don't like to dry mount things, but if I have used 
glossy 
> paper, then it's the only way I think they look good and are 
> considered "archival."
> 

I agree that they look best dry-mounted, no matter the archival 
issues. That for me is paramount- I want my work to look good for as 
long as someone chooses to keep it on their walls. Once it comes 
down...all bets are off as to where any of it will wind up. 

Steve Karafyllakis

http://stevekphoto.com

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing 101)

2009-01-23 by Randy Rancier

Antonis and those that are interested, I believe that the Fusion 4000 is still available, but to 
be honest I haven't dry mounted my own prints in years (but will probably be doing so for 
larger prints in the near future), so I'm not exactly sure exactly sure what the current 
products are in the industry.  Most dry mounting these days in frameshops use a special dry 
mount board (usually a foamcore) that would definitely NOT be considered archival.  
Framers, at least the good ones, would never consider dry mounting an original work of art 
unless specifically asked to do so, and many will have you sign a form stating that dry 
mounting could possibly devalue the work.  Dry mounting us usually reserved for items like 
posters and commercial work where permanence is not an issue, but cheap and flat is!

Probably the best thing to do is to go to "Seals" website and research current available 
materials, and inquire from individuals like Paul, who have been dry mounting their work and 
are concerned with permanence.  For the best permanence always use rag, or at least alpha 
cellulose board; I believe it is ok to use the buffered variety with inkjet prints, but not sure 
and would need to check!

Glad to hear some of you got something out of my short dissertation on framing!

Randy

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-24 by Jules

We sell our photographic prints mounted and framed as Archival. Ours
are typically 16x12, 20x24, and some 10x8. To achieve the mounting
part we cold mount onto archival card using Neschen, water based
archival double sided. 
Jules


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "namibiajohnston"
<chris@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I do my own framing, and printing to A3+ 13 x 19. I have had some 
> prints done at the 24 x 36 size and I cannot get them to stay flat 
> once framed. I have tried minimal fixing via tape the matt board and 
> maximum by using spray fix to the foam core backing. Either way they 
> move and wrinkle and are thus unusable. Bear in mind that where I live 
> it's really hot, sometimes hot and dry and some times hot and humid. I 
> live in the middle of now where so whatever solutions are offered try 
> and keep that in mind.....
> 
> Thanks
>

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame. (Framing 101)

2009-01-24 by jerryhadam

As a framer and a photographer just a point of view.
I have had the pleasure of working on three Ansel Adams prints in the
last year and all were dry mounted onto matboard, and all looked great. 

I mean it's one thing to look down your nose at dry mount, but if it's
good enough for Ansel it's good enough for me. I dry mount a lot of my
own work and have prints that are 30 yr old dry mounts that look great. 

I have also reframed some 50 yr old dry mount onto some kind of board
that looked good, and some that looked awful, but that looked like bad
fixing or rinsing and resulting image loss.
>
> Antonis and those that are interested, I believe that the Fusion
4000 is still available, but to 
> be honest I haven't dry mounted my own prints in years (but will
probably be doing so for 
> larger prints in the near future), so I'm not exactly sure exactly
sure what the current 
> products are in the industry.  

I have found fusion 4000 to be a difficult product to work with. It
has some static to it, is a little clammy and hard to lay out. 

Most dry mounting these days in frameshops use a special dry 
> mount board (usually a foamcore) that would definitely NOT be
considered archival.  
> Framers, at least the good ones, would never consider dry mounting
an original work of art 
> unless specifically asked to do so, and many will have you sign a
form stating that dry 
> mounting could possibly devalue the work.  Dry mounting us usually
reserved for items like 
> posters and commercial work where permanence is not an issue, but
cheap and flat is!

There are a lot of other ways to do it which I base on customer needs
as well.
Some people value flat more than someone elses idea of what archival
is. A dry mount can be done to 4 ply cotton rag or 8 ply cotton rag. 
There is also a product by Drytac? called drychival which is supposed
to be even more neutral to the art. 

I never put anything in the press that cannot be replaced reasonably,
but I do tell my customers that something (even L/E prints sometimes )
won't magically become flat and dry mounting fixes that. 

If you, or viewers of your artwork, see the ripples from hinging that
will inevitably show at different times of year, you are doing a
disservice to your art IMHO.

Hope I don't sound too crotchety. I like the look of dry mounting
(flat) and think far too many people are hung up on "archival". Which
is just a point on the compass with no reference.

Good mounting to you,
Jerry
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Randy
>

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-24 by Clayton Price

Hi All -
Just a few words about mounting -
Within my knowledge, all of the sprays have some sort of lacquer or  
shellac base. There are newer compounds for spraying, but they
mostly will behave the same way when exposed to heat. So if one is  
serious about dry mounting with a Seal or similar press,
you should never spray the print first. Aside from that, there  
probably is not a lab in NYC (where I live) that still mounts prints  
with heat.
There are some very safe cold mounting processes, and they very often  
mount on archival "gator board". For large prints there's
a chrome roller unit that squeezes the print, tissue (which is 100%  
archival) and the gater board together. For one of my clients,
  I'll regularly have glossy inkjet prints (and occasional "C"  
prints) around 60 X 48 inches mounted on 3/16 inch gator bd, which are
  then framed by the client. BTW, Gator Board comes in thicker  
versions, as well.
For small prints one can do it yourself with a paint-on solution and  
a roller, but you'll have to research for the most archival of those!

Hope this helps.
Clay Price

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-24 by Eric Neilsen

Clayton, I don't think the water based sprays have lacquer or shellac in
them. I use both DCP and Glamour II both water based sprays in an HPLV. I'll
certainly add that mounting first is important. A sprayed print in even low
heat with pressure is certainly asking for a surface change from fiber
material. 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

 

SKYPE   ejprinter

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton
Price
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 11:13 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

 

Hi All -
Just a few words about mounting -
Within my knowledge, all of the sprays have some sort of lacquer or 
shellac base. There are newer compounds for spraying, but they
mostly will behave the same way when exposed to heat. So if one is 
serious about dry mounting with a Seal or similar press,
you should never spray the print first. Aside from that, there 
probably is not a lab in NYC (where I live) that still mounts prints 
with heat.
There are some very safe cold mounting processes, and they very often 
mount on archival "gator board". For large prints there's
a chrome roller unit that squeezes the print, tissue (which is 100% 
archival) and the gater board together. For one of my clients,
I'll regularly have glossy inkjet prints (and occasional "C" 
prints) around 60 X 48 inches mounted on 3/16 inch gator bd, which are
then framed by the client. BTW, Gator Board comes in thicker 
versions, as well.
For small prints one can do it yourself with a paint-on solution and 
a roller, but you'll have to research for the most archival of those!

Hope this helps.
Clay Price

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Keeping big prints flat in the frame.

2009-01-25 by Randy Rancier

Clayton,  I didn't think "gator board" was archival or even acid free or that matter.  I'm not 
that familiar with it, perhaps there are some varieties that are considered archival; I'll have 
to do some research on it!

Randy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Clayton Price <clay@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi All -
> Just a few words about mounting -
> Within my knowledge, all of the sprays have some sort of lacquer or  
> shellac base. There are newer compounds for spraying, but they
> mostly will behave the same way when exposed to heat. So if one is  
> serious about dry mounting with a Seal or similar press,
> you should never spray the print first. Aside from that, there  
> probably is not a lab in NYC (where I live) that still mounts prints  
> with heat.
> There are some very safe cold mounting processes, and they very often  
> mount on archival "gator board". For large prints there's
> a chrome roller unit that squeezes the print, tissue (which is 100%  
> archival) and the gater board together. For one of my clients,
>   I'll regularly have glossy inkjet prints (and occasional "C"  
> prints) around 60 X 48 inches mounted on 3/16 inch gator bd, which are
>   then framed by the client. BTW, Gator Board comes in thicker  
> versions, as well.
> For small prints one can do it yourself with a paint-on solution and  
> a roller, but you'll have to research for the most archival of those!
> 
> Hope this helps.
> Clay Price
>

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