Digital BW, The Print

Antonis 
The larger HP 's print as fast as the Epson 10000 (or so I am told) but I don't think that MIS or Cone have carts for these, so you would have to reload  or load your own carts.
And of course the curves would be custom made. Has any one done this yet ?
Don

  Are we too entrenched in the Epson camp to notice other printers? Does 
  anyone have pluses and minuses for HPs and other alternatives?

  Art papers using the Hewlett Packard Designjet 5000PS printer, which with its 
  UV inks combined with the Hahnemuhle media will last up to 200 years, much 
  longer than a traditional photograph. 
  <<<

  more at:
  http://www.hahnemuhle.com/
  under "news".

  Any thoughts?  Nij?...

  Antonis


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

I just read an article in the Professional Photographer Magazine about
Milton Greene and his photography.

His son has been a Beta tester for HP for the last two years and is
restoring a lot of his fathers photographs and offers the service for
others.

The printer he is using, HP DesignJet 5000PS, starts at $12,000 and goes up
to 18,000.00 US.

He is using Hahn....Albrecht Durer WC paper and photo rag.

They quoted results from Wilhelm for the 200 years.

Regards,

John in OKC

----- Original Message -----
From: "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:00 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson vs HP for fine art bw???


| Hello all,
|
| I just stumbled across the details for a Milton Greene exhibit in the UK.
| Apparently these are bw ( and color ) prints that were printed on
Hahnemuhle
| papers (on whose site I read this). But the surprise is that they were
done on
| an HP printer.
|
| Are we too entrenched in the Epson camp to notice other printers? Does
| anyone have pluses and minuses for HPs and other alternatives?
|
| Here is an excerpt:
| >>>Having taken hours of digital retouching in some cases, Joshua Greene
| has found a solution for outputting these prints onto Hahnemuhle Digital
Fine
| Art papers using the Hewlett Packard Designjet 5000PS printer, which with
its
| UV inks combined with the Hahnemuhle media will last up to 200 years, much
| longer than a traditional photograph.
| <<<
|
| more at:
| http://www.hahnemuhle.com/
| under "news".
|
| Any thoughts?  Nij?...
|
| Antonis
|
|
|
| Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
|
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
|
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| - Include your full name with your message.
| - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
| - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
| - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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| - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
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|
|
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|
|

Hello again,

It also states that:

"This month at PMA, Greene and Hahn... will introduce the Cone Edition
Piezography system for
 B & W inkjet reproduction. With 6 tones of black, it will give the printer
full control over the entire spectrum of white to black. The inkjets lay
down tiny droplets of ink to produce 1,280 x 1,280 resolution."
"Tour venues and ordering information are available at:"

www.archivesmhg.com


Regards,

John in OKC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Rooney" <donr@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson vs HP for fine art bw???


| Antonis
| The larger HP 's print as fast as the Epson 10000 (or so I am told) but I
don't think that MIS or Cone have carts for these, so you would have to
reload  or load your own carts.
| And of course the curves would be custom made. Has any one done this yet ?
| Don
|
|   Are we too entrenched in the Epson camp to notice other printers? Does
|   anyone have pluses and minuses for HPs and other alternatives?
|
|   Art papers using the Hewlett Packard Designjet 5000PS printer, which
with its
|   UV inks combined with the Hahnemuhle media will last up to 200 years,
much
|   longer than a traditional photograph.
|   <<<
|
|   more at:
|   http://www.hahnemuhle.com/
|   under "news".
|
|   Any thoughts?  Nij?...
|
|   Antonis
|
|
|         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
|               ADVERTISEMENT
|
|
|
|
|   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
|
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|
|   Please follow these basic guidelines:
|   - Include your full name with your message.
|   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
|   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
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header.
|   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
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|   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
|
|
|
|
|   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
|
|
|
| [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
|
|
| Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
|
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
|
| Please follow these basic guidelines:
| - Include your full name with your message.
| - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
| - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
| - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
| - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
| - Complete your Yahoo profile.
| - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
|
|
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|
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|
|

>Hello all,
>
>I just stumbled across the details for a Milton Greene exhibit in the UK.
>Apparently these are bw ( and color ) prints that were printed on Hahnemuhle
>papers (on whose site I read this). But the surprise is that they were done on
>an HP printer.
>
>Are we too entrenched in the Epson camp to notice other printers? Does
>anyone have pluses and minuses for HPs and other alternatives?
>
>Here is an excerpt:
>>>>Having taken hours of digital retouching in some cases, Joshua Greene
>has found a solution for outputting these prints onto Hahnemuhle Digital Fine
>Art papers using the Hewlett Packard Designjet 5000PS printer, which with its
>UV inks combined with the Hahnemuhle media will last up to 200 years, much
>longer than a traditional photograph.
><<<
>
>more at:
>http://www.hahnemuhle.com/
>under "news".
>
>Any thoughts?  Nij?...
>
>Antonis

Two week ago I was two days in Epson DE. Main interest of lessons was 
technical parameters, setup and care of Pro printers - 5000-10000. I 
may say, that difference between Epson Stylus Pro 10000 and HP 5000 
is only 3 m of paper - the test which shows all parameters which MUST 
be set up to print in 100 % quality on Epson SP 10000. It is realy 
simple.

Martin Sluka
--

> "Tour venues and ordering information are available at:"
>
> www.archivesmhg.com

Hi John,

Where is that link suppose to lead me?  May be I just didn't look
enough...but I couldn't find anything related to "the Cone Edition
Piezography system for  B & W inkjet reproduction. With 6 tones of
black...".

Would you mind please pointing me in the right direction?

Thanks,

Austin

Hi Austin,

I was just quoting from the mag article, the web site is for the
photographer in the article.
I'm not sure where you would find out about the PMA and Cone.

Regards,

John in OKC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson vs HP for fine art bw???


| > "Tour venues and ordering information are available at:"
| >
| > www.archivesmhg.com
|
| Hi John,
|
| Where is that link suppose to lead me?  May be I just didn't look
| enough...but I couldn't find anything related to "the Cone Edition
| Piezography system for  B & W inkjet reproduction. With 6 tones of
| black...".
|
| Would you mind please pointing me in the right direction?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Austin
|
|
|
| Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
|
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
|
| Please follow these basic guidelines:
| - Include your full name with your message.
| - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
| - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
| - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
| - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
| - Complete your Yahoo profile.
| - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
|
|
|
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|

Antonis,

As architects we have used HP printers for many years. I will tell you that
they are build like tanks and require very little service. When I was
considering the HP 5000 vs. the ESP 10000 a few months ago I opted to
purchase the 10000 for a couple of reasons. First the quality of the HP 5000
is equal to the Epson 9000/9500. The Epson 10000 print qualty exceeds the HP
5000 and Epson 9000. Second, the HP 5000 does not have a straight through
paper path. Using sheets like Hahnemuhle William Turner, Torchon, and German
Etching Board is near impossible. Using roll paper becomes imperative.
Sheets are too stiff and get runied in the 5000.

The good part is that the HP LF inks are excellent. They have wonderful
gamut, superior life with virtually no fade, and I hear metamerism is all
but non-existent. I have a small HP 1280 desktop printer in the office.
Believe it or not, I get a fairly neutral grayscale from this machine using
color inks with no observable crossover. HP photo quality printer produce
very smooth images. The neat thing about the 1280 is that when I get
banding, it means the cartridge is about to run out of ink. I buy a new
cartridge which comes with a new print head and away we go. HP desktop
printers have the print head in the cartridge.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:00 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson vs HP for fine art bw???


> Hello all,
>
> I just stumbled across the details for a Milton Greene exhibit in the UK.
> Apparently these are bw ( and color ) prints that were printed on
Hahnemuhle
> papers (on whose site I read this). But the surprise is that they were
done on
> an HP printer.
>
> Are we too entrenched in the Epson camp to notice other printers? Does
> anyone have pluses and minuses for HPs and other alternatives?
>
> Here is an excerpt:
> >>>Having taken hours of digital retouching in some cases, Joshua Greene
> has found a solution for outputting these prints onto Hahnemuhle Digital
Fine
> Art papers using the Hewlett Packard Designjet 5000PS printer, which with
its
> UV inks combined with the Hahnemuhle media will last up to 200 years, much
> longer than a traditional photograph.
> <<<
>
> more at:
> http://www.hahnemuhle.com/
> under "news".
>
> Any thoughts?  Nij?...
>
> Antonis
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Mike, your reply is something what I dont't understand. I met several 
products of HP in my life and every time I was very disapointed. The 
marketing data was so different from reality.

One and half year ago I was on a fair on Epson boot. There was an ESP 
7500. Beside was a boot of Olympus and they made there big 
photographers show every day. Photographers printed their digital 
prints on HP 5000. Several of them came to Epson try ESP 7500. After 
two day they printed print outs on HP 5000 for show and good pictures 
on Epsons 7500 for themselfs. :)

HP 5000 has exchangable heads and ink system. They say in 20 minutes 
you may change inks from dye to pigment. Funy - to change heads on 
any Epson (including small A4 ones) means to set up geometrical 
linearity of heads and timing for all sizes of drops and each ink - 
work for quite long time. Are you realy sure the physical laws work 
fifferent for HP and for Epson or Epson is simply not able to do the 
same physical tricks HP does or for dpi over 300 one doesn't need 
such setup, or...?

The way how Epsons/Seiko new heads (10000 and others) produce drops - 
absolute control of meniscus of ink in the end of nozle - is possible 
only with piezo, never with thermal heads.

The HP inks - I have seen several exhibitions printed on HP 5000 here 
- including BW prints. Compare to Piezography horrific. No details in 
shadows, very flat, and strong metamerism from greenish to pinkish 
and to silver efect.

Good luck

Martin

>Antonis,
>
>As architects we have used HP printers for many years. I will tell you that
>they are build like tanks and require very little service. When I was
>considering the HP 5000 vs. the ESP 10000 a few months ago I opted to
>purchase the 10000 for a couple of reasons. First the quality of the HP 5000
>is equal to the Epson 9000/9500. The Epson 10000 print qualty exceeds the HP
>5000 and Epson 9000. Second, the HP 5000 does not have a straight through
>paper path. Using sheets like Hahnemuhle William Turner, Torchon, and German
>Etching Board is near impossible. Using roll paper becomes imperative.
>Sheets are too stiff and get runied in the 5000.
>
>The good part is that the HP LF inks are excellent. They have wonderful
>gamut, superior life with virtually no fade, and I hear metamerism is all
>but non-existent. I have a small HP 1280 desktop printer in the office.
>Believe it or not, I get a fairly neutral grayscale from this machine using
>color inks with no observable crossover. HP photo quality printer produce
>very smooth images. The neat thing about the 1280 is that when I get
>banding, it means the cartridge is about to run out of ink. I buy a new
>cartridge which comes with a new print head and away we go. HP desktop
>printers have the print head in the cartridge.
>
>Mike
>


--

Martin,

I went to my distributors service bureau (shop) when I was looking at the
HP5000. I looked at printed being made for photographers, I found that the
HP5000 quality was as good as the ESP9000, but did not compare to the
ESP10000 as I mentioned. I don't know alot about the head technology so I
really can not comment as to how HP does things.

Mike


----- Original Message -----

From: "Martin Sluka" <martinsluka@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson vs HP for fine art bw???


> Mike, your reply is something what I dont't understand. I met several
> products of HP in my life and every time I was very disapointed. The
> marketing data was so different from reality.

Mike,

thanks for that comparative report. I hadn't thought of the paper path 
difference.
Regarding the inks: What's to stop one from using them in the Epson if they 
are indeed superior - or are they?  Are LF different than UV (that were used in 
this exhibit with incredible archival claims)?

Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
 The Epson 10000 print qualty exceeds the HP
> 5000 and Epson 9000. Second, the HP 5000 does not have a straight 
through
> paper path. Using sheets like Hahnemuhle William Turner, Torchon, and 
German

> Etching Board is near impossible. Using roll paper becomes imperative.
> Sheets are too stiff and get runied in the 5000.
> 
> The good part is that the HP LF inks are excellent.

Antonis,

I don't know if the inks are compatible. I think the HP print prcess uses
heat to set up the inks. I asked my dealer and she did state that they are
different. Next time I speak with her I will ask again, but for specifics.

I was looking at the HP site yesterday and noticed that they have a couple
of photo quality desktop printers. I would like to see how their quality
compares to Epson using watercolor papers. I might have to take a could
sheets of H. Photo Rag to Office Depot and give it a run.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 4:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson vs HP for fine art bw???


> Mike,
>
> thanks for that comparative report. I hadn't thought of the paper path
> difference.
> Regarding the inks: What's to stop one from using them in the Epson if
they
> are indeed superior - or are they?  Are LF different than UV (that were
used in

> this exhibit with incredible archival claims)?
>
> Antonis

SANITY!

HP use thermal inkjet printing, and the inks are completely different to the 
Epson piezo-head inks.

On Sunday 17 Feb 2002 10:46 am, antonisphoto wrote:
> What's to stop one from using them in the Epson if they
> are indeed superior - or are they?