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a brief explanation about the uses of a PLL VCO.(from doepfer.)

a brief explanation about the uses of a PLL VCO.(from doepfer.)

2003-06-26 by Bakis Sirros

dieter says:
"a PLL and it's application is not very easy to
understand. I will try to write an explanation and
publish it on our web site as soon as we publish the
preliminary page for the PLL module (no A-100 number
so far).
Here is a simplified explanation: A PLL is a linear
rectangle VCO with a frequency comparator that
compares the frequency of the internal PLL-VCO with an
external frequency (master frequency) - e.g. the
rectangle output of  "normal" A-100 VCO - and makes
the the internal VCO frequency equal to the external
frequency. Or better said: it tries to adjust the
internal frequency so that it becomes equal to the
external frequency. The problem is the frequency
comparator - even called phase comparator - that
generates a kind of a correction voltage that becomes
zero if both frequencies are identical. Different
versions with different advantages/disadvantages of
frequency comparators are available. Some types of
comparators e.g. will "lock" even at multiples of the
frequencies. Another problem is the time that is
necessary until the PLL-VCO is adjusted. It will
always take some time until the new frequency of the
PLL-VCO is reached (similar to portamento). The time
constant of the internal low pass filter (not an audio
low pass but a low pass/slew limiter for the
correction CV) defines the time until the new
frequency is reached. But this time has not to be too
short otherwise the frequency of the PLL-VCO will
"wobble" around the master frequency. These
"disadvantages" lead to additional musical
applications like portamento effects or wobbling
frequencies according to the type of frequency
comparator and time constant of the PLL low pass
filter.
Another application is frequency multiplication in
combination with an external frequency divider. For
this the output of the PLL-VCO is processed through a
frequency divider (e.g. A-160, A-161, A-163) before it
is fed to the PLL frequency comparator. In this case
the frequency of the PLL-VCO will be a multiple of the
master frequency. E.g if the the A-163 is used and
adjusted to dividing factor 5 the frequency of the
PLL-VCO will be 5 times the frequency of the master
VCO. Consequently frequency division (A-163) leads to
frequency multiplication with the PLL circuit. In
combination with the PLL low pass frequency several
effects can be realized (frequency multiplication with
portamento or wobbling). The frequency multiplication
can even be used to drive a graphic VCO. If your
graphic VCO e.g. has 8 steps (e.g. A-155) and you use
a frequency divider with factor 8 in the PLL feedback
the output of the graphic VCO has the same frequency
as the master VCO. Another application is the
generation of pseudo-harmonics (not real harmonics as
only rectangle waves are available).
 
I hope this explanation will help and not cause more
confusion. I know that the PLL is not very easy to
understand. 
Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer"



INTERESTING???????OF COURSE,YES!
bakis.




=====
synthfreak(parallel worlds)
athens-greece
[Doepfer_a100] group owner

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Re: [Doepfer_a100] a brief explanation about the uses of a PLL VCO.(from doepfer.)

2003-06-26 by Andreas Lindholm

That sounds interesting to me although I don't completey grasap it, but the
wobbling and inaccuracy in this case could be more advatageous as an effect
than a pure VCO it seems to me... when did this module come up on the
agenda? I didn't even know it was something Doepfer had in mind....


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bakis Sirros" <synth_freak_2000@yahoo.com>
To: "Doepfer_a100 group" <doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 6:06 PM
Subject: [Doepfer_a100] a brief explanation about the uses of a PLL
VCO.(from doepfer.)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> dieter says:
> "a PLL and it's application is not very easy to
> understand. I will try to write an explanation and
> publish it on our web site as soon as we publish the
> preliminary page for the PLL module (no A-100 number
> so far).
> Here is a simplified explanation: A PLL is a linear
> rectangle VCO with a frequency comparator that
> compares the frequency of the internal PLL-VCO with an
> external frequency (master frequency) - e.g. the
> rectangle output of  "normal" A-100 VCO - and makes
> the the internal VCO frequency equal to the external
> frequency. Or better said: it tries to adjust the
> internal frequency so that it becomes equal to the
> external frequency. The problem is the frequency
> comparator - even called phase comparator - that
> generates a kind of a correction voltage that becomes
> zero if both frequencies are identical. Different
> versions with different advantages/disadvantages of
> frequency comparators are available. Some types of
> comparators e.g. will "lock" even at multiples of the
> frequencies. Another problem is the time that is
> necessary until the PLL-VCO is adjusted. It will
> always take some time until the new frequency of the
> PLL-VCO is reached (similar to portamento). The time
> constant of the internal low pass filter (not an audio
> low pass but a low pass/slew limiter for the
> correction CV) defines the time until the new
> frequency is reached. But this time has not to be too
> short otherwise the frequency of the PLL-VCO will
> "wobble" around the master frequency. These
> "disadvantages" lead to additional musical
> applications like portamento effects or wobbling
> frequencies according to the type of frequency
> comparator and time constant of the PLL low pass
> filter.
> Another application is frequency multiplication in
> combination with an external frequency divider. For
> this the output of the PLL-VCO is processed through a
> frequency divider (e.g. A-160, A-161, A-163) before it
> is fed to the PLL frequency comparator. In this case
> the frequency of the PLL-VCO will be a multiple of the
> master frequency. E.g if the the A-163 is used and
> adjusted to dividing factor 5 the frequency of the
> PLL-VCO will be 5 times the frequency of the master
> VCO. Consequently frequency division (A-163) leads to
> frequency multiplication with the PLL circuit. In
> combination with the PLL low pass frequency several
> effects can be realized (frequency multiplication with
> portamento or wobbling). The frequency multiplication
> can even be used to drive a graphic VCO. If your
> graphic VCO e.g. has 8 steps (e.g. A-155) and you use
> a frequency divider with factor 8 in the PLL feedback
> the output of the graphic VCO has the same frequency
> as the master VCO. Another application is the
> generation of pseudo-harmonics (not real harmonics as
> only rectangle waves are available).
>
> I hope this explanation will help and not cause more
> confusion. I know that the PLL is not very easy to
> understand.
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer"
>
>
>
> INTERESTING???????OF COURSE,YES!
> bakis.
>
>
>
>
> =====
> synthfreak(parallel worlds)
> athens-greece
> [Doepfer_a100] group owner
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> doepfer_a100-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: a brief explanation about the uses of a PLL VCO.(from doepfer.)

2003-06-26 by ps_minor

hey that sounds nearly identical to my new favorite device, a box a friend of 
mine has put into production recently, called simply the PLL.   it's an amazing 
thing..  mine will have CV added soon, and an arpegiator for cycling through 
harmonics.  it has germainium overdrive circuits built into the mixer controls 
and a waveshaper on final output.  very musical device!
  
have a look:

http://members.toast.net/photos/album.asp?user=pscottm&album=
schumann%20PLL

also, i just loaned him a doepfer mini power supply/bus board & blank panel 
so he can develop one in euro module format.  (actually, it'll just be the PLL 
'front end' osc control circuit, not the multiplier/divider, or mixer.
-psm



 Lindholm" <andreas.k.lindholm@t...> wrote:
> That sounds interesting to me although I don't completey grasap it, but the
> wobbling and inaccuracy in this case could be more advatageous as an 
effect
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> than a pure VCO it seems to me... when did this module come up on the
> agenda? I didn't even know it was something Doepfer had in mind....
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bakis Sirros" <synth_freak_2000@y...>
> To: "Doepfer_a100 group" <doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 6:06 PM
> Subject: [Doepfer_a100] a brief explanation about the uses of a PLL
> VCO.(from doepfer.)
> 
> 
> > dieter says:
> > "a PLL and it's application is not very easy to
> > understand. I will try to write an explanation and
> > publish it on our web site as soon as we publish the
> > preliminary page for the PLL module (no A-100 number
> > so far).
> > Here is a simplified explanation: A PLL is a linear
> > rectangle VCO with a frequency comparator that
> > compares the frequency of the internal PLL-VCO with an
> > external frequency (master frequency) - e.g. the
> > rectangle output of  "normal" A-100 VCO - and makes
> > the the internal VCO frequency equal to the external
> > frequency. Or better said: it tries to adjust the
> > internal frequency so that it becomes equal to the
> > external frequency. The problem is the frequency
> > comparator - even called phase comparator - that
> > generates a kind of a correction voltage that becomes
> > zero if both frequencies are identical. Different
> > versions with different advantages/disadvantages of
> > frequency comparators are available. Some types of
> > comparators e.g. will "lock" even at multiples of the
> > frequencies. Another problem is the time that is
> > necessary until the PLL-VCO is adjusted. It will
> > always take some time until the new frequency of the
> > PLL-VCO is reached (similar to portamento). The time
> > constant of the internal low pass filter (not an audio
> > low pass but a low pass/slew limiter for the
> > correction CV) defines the time until the new
> > frequency is reached. But this time has not to be too
> > short otherwise the frequency of the PLL-VCO will
> > "wobble" around the master frequency. These
> > "disadvantages" lead to additional musical
> > applications like portamento effects or wobbling
> > frequencies according to the type of frequency
> > comparator and time constant of the PLL low pass
> > filter.
> > Another application is frequency multiplication in
> > combination with an external frequency divider. For
> > this the output of the PLL-VCO is processed through a
> > frequency divider (e.g. A-160, A-161, A-163) before it
> > is fed to the PLL frequency comparator. In this case
> > the frequency of the PLL-VCO will be a multiple of the
> > master frequency. E.g if the the A-163 is used and
> > adjusted to dividing factor 5 the frequency of the
> > PLL-VCO will be 5 times the frequency of the master
> > VCO. Consequently frequency division (A-163) leads to
> > frequency multiplication with the PLL circuit. In
> > combination with the PLL low pass frequency several
> > effects can be realized (frequency multiplication with
> > portamento or wobbling). The frequency multiplication
> > can even be used to drive a graphic VCO. If your
> > graphic VCO e.g. has 8 steps (e.g. A-155) and you use
> > a frequency divider with factor 8 in the PLL feedback
> > the output of the graphic VCO has the same frequency
> > as the master VCO. Another application is the
> > generation of pseudo-harmonics (not real harmonics as
> > only rectangle waves are available).
> >
> > I hope this explanation will help and not cause more
> > confusion. I know that the PLL is not very easy to
> > understand.
> > Best wishes
> > Dieter Doepfer"
> >
> >
> >
> > INTERESTING???????OF COURSE,YES!
> > bakis.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > synthfreak(parallel worlds)
> > athens-greece
> > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > doepfer_a100-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Re: a brief explanation about the uses of a PLL VCO.(from doepfer.)

2003-06-26 by klamb000

Ahh... the Schumann custom stuff.  I hear it's very nice stuff.

Regards,
Kevin

--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "ps_minor" <pscottm@h...> wrote:
> hey that sounds nearly identical to my new favorite device, a box a 
friend of 
> mine has put into production recently, called simply the PLL.   
it's an amazing 
> thing..  mine will have CV added soon, and an arpegiator for 
cycling through 
> harmonics.  it has germainium overdrive circuits built into the 
mixer controls 
> and a waveshaper on final output.  very musical device!
>   
> have a look:
> 
> http://members.toast.net/photos/album.asp?user=pscottm&album=
> schumann%20PLL
> 
> also, i just loaned him a doepfer mini power supply/bus board & 
blank panel 
> so he can develop one in euro module format.  (actually, it'll just 
be the PLL 
> 'front end' osc control circuit, not the multiplier/divider, or 
mixer.
> -psm
> 
> 
> 
>  Lindholm" <andreas.k.lindholm@t...> wrote:
> > That sounds interesting to me although I don't completey grasap 
it, but the
> > wobbling and inaccuracy in this case could be more advatageous as 
an 
> effect
> > than a pure VCO it seems to me... when did this module come up on 
the
> > agenda? I didn't even know it was something Doepfer had in 
mind....
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Bakis Sirros" <synth_freak_2000@y...>
> > To: "Doepfer_a100 group" <doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 6:06 PM
> > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] a brief explanation about the uses of a 
PLL
> > VCO.(from doepfer.)
> > 
> > 
> > > dieter says:
> > > "a PLL and it's application is not very easy to
> > > understand. I will try to write an explanation and
> > > publish it on our web site as soon as we publish the
> > > preliminary page for the PLL module (no A-100 number
> > > so far).
> > > Here is a simplified explanation: A PLL is a linear
> > > rectangle VCO with a frequency comparator that
> > > compares the frequency of the internal PLL-VCO with an
> > > external frequency (master frequency) - e.g. the
> > > rectangle output of  "normal" A-100 VCO - and makes
> > > the the internal VCO frequency equal to the external
> > > frequency. Or better said: it tries to adjust the
> > > internal frequency so that it becomes equal to the
> > > external frequency. The problem is the frequency
> > > comparator - even called phase comparator - that
> > > generates a kind of a correction voltage that becomes
> > > zero if both frequencies are identical. Different
> > > versions with different advantages/disadvantages of
> > > frequency comparators are available. Some types of
> > > comparators e.g. will "lock" even at multiples of the
> > > frequencies. Another problem is the time that is
> > > necessary until the PLL-VCO is adjusted. It will
> > > always take some time until the new frequency of the
> > > PLL-VCO is reached (similar to portamento). The time
> > > constant of the internal low pass filter (not an audio
> > > low pass but a low pass/slew limiter for the
> > > correction CV) defines the time until the new
> > > frequency is reached. But this time has not to be too
> > > short otherwise the frequency of the PLL-VCO will
> > > "wobble" around the master frequency. These
> > > "disadvantages" lead to additional musical
> > > applications like portamento effects or wobbling
> > > frequencies according to the type of frequency
> > > comparator and time constant of the PLL low pass
> > > filter.
> > > Another application is frequency multiplication in
> > > combination with an external frequency divider. For
> > > this the output of the PLL-VCO is processed through a
> > > frequency divider (e.g. A-160, A-161, A-163) before it
> > > is fed to the PLL frequency comparator. In this case
> > > the frequency of the PLL-VCO will be a multiple of the
> > > master frequency. E.g if the the A-163 is used and
> > > adjusted to dividing factor 5 the frequency of the
> > > PLL-VCO will be 5 times the frequency of the master
> > > VCO. Consequently frequency division (A-163) leads to
> > > frequency multiplication with the PLL circuit. In
> > > combination with the PLL low pass frequency several
> > > effects can be realized (frequency multiplication with
> > > portamento or wobbling). The frequency multiplication
> > > can even be used to drive a graphic VCO. If your
> > > graphic VCO e.g. has 8 steps (e.g. A-155) and you use
> > > a frequency divider with factor 8 in the PLL feedback
> > > the output of the graphic VCO has the same frequency
> > > as the master VCO. Another application is the
> > > generation of pseudo-harmonics (not real harmonics as
> > > only rectangle waves are available).
> > >
> > > I hope this explanation will help and not cause more
> > > confusion. I know that the PLL is not very easy to
> > > understand.
> > > Best wishes
> > > Dieter Doepfer"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > INTERESTING???????OF COURSE,YES!
> > > bakis.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > synthfreak(parallel worlds)
> > > athens-greece
> > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > doepfer_a100-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >

Re: [Doepfer_a100] a brief explanation about the uses of a PLL VCO.(from doepfer.)

2003-06-26 by Bakis Sirros

hi andreas,
there is an old poll...it was a module proposed by
florian a long time ago...
bakis.


--- Andreas Lindholm <andreas.k.lindholm@telia.com>
wrote:
> That sounds interesting to me although I don't
> completey grasap it, but the
> wobbling and inaccuracy in this case could be more
> advatageous as an effect
> than a pure VCO it seems to me... when did this
> module come up on the
> agenda? I didn't even know it was something Doepfer
> had in mind....
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bakis Sirros" <synth_freak_2000@yahoo.com>
> To: "Doepfer_a100 group"
> <doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 6:06 PM
> Subject: [Doepfer_a100] a brief explanation about
> the uses of a PLL
> VCO.(from doepfer.)
> 
> 
> > dieter says:
> > "a PLL and it's application is not very easy to
> > understand. I will try to write an explanation and
> > publish it on our web site as soon as we publish
> the
> > preliminary page for the PLL module (no A-100
> number
> > so far).
> > Here is a simplified explanation: A PLL is a
> linear
> > rectangle VCO with a frequency comparator that
> > compares the frequency of the internal PLL-VCO
> with an
> > external frequency (master frequency) - e.g. the
> > rectangle output of  "normal" A-100 VCO - and
> makes
> > the the internal VCO frequency equal to the
> external
> > frequency. Or better said: it tries to adjust the
> > internal frequency so that it becomes equal to the
> > external frequency. The problem is the frequency
> > comparator - even called phase comparator - that
> > generates a kind of a correction voltage that
> becomes
> > zero if both frequencies are identical. Different
> > versions with different advantages/disadvantages
> of
> > frequency comparators are available. Some types of
> > comparators e.g. will "lock" even at multiples of
> the
> > frequencies. Another problem is the time that is
> > necessary until the PLL-VCO is adjusted. It will
> > always take some time until the new frequency of
> the
> > PLL-VCO is reached (similar to portamento). The
> time
> > constant of the internal low pass filter (not an
> audio
> > low pass but a low pass/slew limiter for the
> > correction CV) defines the time until the new
> > frequency is reached. But this time has not to be
> too
> > short otherwise the frequency of the PLL-VCO will
> > "wobble" around the master frequency. These
> > "disadvantages" lead to additional musical
> > applications like portamento effects or wobbling
> > frequencies according to the type of frequency
> > comparator and time constant of the PLL low pass
> > filter.
> > Another application is frequency multiplication in
> > combination with an external frequency divider.
> For
> > this the output of the PLL-VCO is processed
> through a
> > frequency divider (e.g. A-160, A-161, A-163)
> before it
> > is fed to the PLL frequency comparator. In this
> case
> > the frequency of the PLL-VCO will be a multiple of
> the
> > master frequency. E.g if the the A-163 is used and
> > adjusted to dividing factor 5 the frequency of the
> > PLL-VCO will be 5 times the frequency of the
> master
> > VCO. Consequently frequency division (A-163) leads
> to
> > frequency multiplication with the PLL circuit. In
> > combination with the PLL low pass frequency
> several
> > effects can be realized (frequency multiplication
> with
> > portamento or wobbling). The frequency
> multiplication
> > can even be used to drive a graphic VCO. If your
> > graphic VCO e.g. has 8 steps (e.g. A-155) and you
> use
> > a frequency divider with factor 8 in the PLL
> feedback
> > the output of the graphic VCO has the same
> frequency
> > as the master VCO. Another application is the
> > generation of pseudo-harmonics (not real harmonics
> as
> > only rectangle waves are available).
> >
> > I hope this explanation will help and not cause
> more
> > confusion. I know that the PLL is not very easy to
> > understand.
> > Best wishes
> > Dieter Doepfer"
> >
> >
> >
> > INTERESTING???????OF COURSE,YES!
> > bakis.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > synthfreak(parallel worlds)
> > athens-greece
> > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > doepfer_a100-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 


=====
synthfreak(parallel worlds)
athens-greece
[Doepfer_a100] group owner

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Re: [Doepfer_a100] a brief explanation about the uses of a PLL VCO.(from doepfer.)

2003-06-27 by Florian Anwander

Hi Bakis 

Andreas
> > I didn't even know it was something Doepfer had in mind....
Bakis
> it was a module proposed by florian a long time ago...
Indeed I am annyoing Dieter with my wish for a PLL since a long time ;)

I have an old sampler module (from the 1984 SoundSampler) which uses a PLL
as high speed VCO; I modified it so I could use the PLLs OSC out and it was
always fun. These modules are grabbing dust in my attic now - it's a shame.

I also learned the PLLs to know in the polymoog, where a normal audio VCO
is  modulated by a LFO for vibrato and by the ribbon controller. Then the
VCOs frequency is multiplied up and feeds a so called top octave
synthesizer, a special chip which produces all 12 notes of an octave. These
12 notes are divided down to the lower octaves (in fact this circuit is
built two times for two Oscillators).

Florian

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