Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

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Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-18 by Al Curatolo

I guess I don't understand the hostility and why some folks are so upset about this. The price is the price. If it's too expensive then don't buy it or look at alternative systems.

The fact that this instrument is even being made at all is a good thing. This product has a very limited audience, even if it were only $5k, and the makers need to make a profit and cover development costs on this for it to be viable. While I don't agree with the price and certainly won't be purchasing a new 30a at $17k I don't understand why some folks feel cheated and are so angry about price of this instrument. If you want a cheaper Fairlight go buy one of the IIx's that were on the 'bay this week or one of the Series III's up on the Horizontal Productions website. Those of you that already own an older system should be happy to have your investment protected because the new system isn't cheaper than your "vintage" system so your machines weren't devalued by 50% overnight. Would I like a Series III with 200+ note polyphony for under $5k? Sure I would, but if they only sold a 100 of them and were only making $1400 a piece you can bet they wouldn't be around to sell any more or support your new machine the following year.

I believe the 30A is a way to generate some R&D money for a new sampling system based on the cc-1. I'm hoping this thing is successful so that we can have a chance to get that plugin pci card version without the vintage style case, monitor, and standalone cpu at a price we can all afford after the development costs have been recovered. I'm also hoping that it's sucessful so that a series IV can be made with all the updates that would make it the ultimate sampling workstation. My thinking is that the 30a is only the first step and that the really exciting stuff will be coming a year or two after the 30A assuming they can sell that first 100 machines. Meanwhile I'll kick back and wait for CC-1 plugin card version or CMI IV.

As for a poll: Are you serious? What do you hope to accomplish with that?

Al

------ Original Message ------
Received: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:51:50 AM MDT
From: colin.a.ross@btinternet.com
To: Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Fairlight CMI 30A

I have been approuched by nearly 20 members on the forum so far and as this issue hots up there will be more. I feel the same as them that $17000 is criminal in this day and age. $5000 was more the correct price and my calulations making $2000 on that price. Now that Peter has handed it over to Fairlight they are out to screw as much out of the Fairlight community as possible. Members on here kept the fairlight name and product running since the last CMI's came of the product line around 1990 and even after when Fairlight went under down under in the early 90s.
Last year I made a top spec 19 inch rack sampler with 24 outputs which can be expanded to 64 if I wanted due to a MADI connection on the sound card. It sampling is up to 196Khz. unlimited sequencer and a touch screen with pen using a tablet and a CME 7 octave master keyboard sprayed an off white and named and registated it the name Fairlite [ given to me from a joke Martin Gore did in the mid 80s as a dig to Fairlight again over cost he had it wrote on the back of a Casio ] my cost for the above was €1600 pounds sterling. It doesn't take $14000 for the software cloning. Come on Peter in this global climit make it, well the clue is in the name of both our products. Everyone has to make a few pounds I know but the first price was nearer the mark. The days and prices of the 80s are long gone. I did not set this forum up to be used as a marketing forum either but in this case I want everyones views I am going to put a pole on later and I want as many of this membership to make there views heard. No new member will be added to the forum until the poll is over. I want members to let Fairlight know what we think so keep posting normal posts and if there are any fairlight staff or friends on this forum trying to swade normal member please don't or you will be thrown out of the group ie the new few members that have just joined.
Colin moderator

Sent via BlackBerry® from BT

Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-18 by bty496052

The writer of the post below has not got a clue "Al Curatolo" I own a IIx and had 2 Series III until Coldplay bought one if he's hinting at me which he is. Dont give me "the price is the price" when peter held off and kept us waiting and wouldnt give us a price till he worked it out he came back onto the forum saying it would be $5000ish so dont make a comment if you dont know what your talking about. Dont get me wrong i'm all on for the A30 CMI and when i heard $5000ish the money was being put aside. I'm feed up with people trying to rip people off within the fairlight community it has been happening for years. I was told today that Fairlight are involve and investing with this venture and that a meeting was held just over a week ago and insisted they wanted to make money out of it hense the $12000 more and that came from someone within Fairlight. If someone wants to give $17000 for it well good for you but i wont be paying that. There is a bigger market for this product than you think if it was $5000 at $17000 it will be limited orders only. See what high prices and limited orders did to Fairlight in the past. Look I call a spade a spade. Peter shouldnt have stated $5000 in the first place then turned round and look over 3 times the amount. Thats like asking a car dealer how much is the car he states $5000 then you go to get your wallet out and he says that will be $17000 please it doesnt happen. Peter good luck with the product but be prepaired for the flac.
Colin

Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-18 by Tobias Enhus

If the features, sound and quality really warrants the price tag, then fine.

However at 17k I would need a rather convincing demo and sales pitch, where as at 5k I would buy it on the mere word of the product.

Tobias

On 18 aug 2009, at 16.24, bty496052 wrote:

The writer of the post below has not got a clue "Al Curatolo" I own a IIx and had 2 Series III until Coldplay bought one if he's hinting at me which he is. Dont give me "the price is the price" when peter held off and kept us waiting and wouldnt give us a price till he worked it out he came back onto the forum saying it would be $5000ish so dont make a comment if you dont know what your talking about. Dont get me wrong i'm all on for the A30 CMI and when i heard $5000ish the money was being put aside. I'm feed up with people trying to rip people off within the fairlight community it has been happening for years. I was told today that Fairlight are involve and investing with this venture and that a meeting was held just over a week ago and insisted they wanted to make money out of it hense the $12000 more and that came from someone within Fairlight. If someone wants to give $17000 for it well good for you but i wont be paying that. There is a bigger market for this product than you think if it was $5000 at $17000 it will be limited orders only. See what high prices and limited orders did to Fairlight in the past. Look I call a spade a spade. Peter shouldnt have stated $5000 in the first place then turned round and look over 3 times the amount. Thats like asking a car dealer how much is the car he states $5000 then you go to get your wallet out and he says that will be $17000 please it doesnt happen. Peter good luck with the product but be prepaired for the flac.
Colin

RE: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-19 by Peter Vogel

There is some confusion which I hope I can clear up.

The first product, the 30A is aimed squarely at the nostalgia market. I have
said clearly that it is not intended to compete price-performance-wise with
the many excellent products already on the market.

If that product is a success, it will pay for the software development which
can then be deployed in a "no frills" package the Series IV, that is a card
and software, which should be possible at the $5k figure I mentioned.

Fairlight.au is not investing in this project. It is my own initiative, and
I will be paying Fairlight for the development. If someone within Fairlight
said otherwise, they are mistaken. 

No-one is gouging. The price is calculated on a normal commercial basis. The
major cost is the design and development for a small run of special items
such as the wooden keyboard case.  For those who are not interested in the
packaging, it indeed makes no sense to buy the 30A.

There is a huge difference in cost between what one can cobble together as a
labour of love and what it costs to do something commercially, where
programmers have to be paid for every day they work, someone has to answer
phones, international shipping has to be paid for, distributors get their
cut, and service and support must be paid for.  As a rough rule, the
manufacturer makes about 10% of the end price. 

That's why products like Protools HD are in the price range they are.

I hope Colin is right about the market being bigger than I think at $5000
and we will find out in due course.  If someone puts about $2m on the table
to fund the development of a low-cost CMI I'd be very interested to cut
straight to the chase!

There has been some good suggestions on this list about future directions,
and I invite those interesting in pursuing the discussion to join the forum
at www.fairlightinstruments.com.au

Cheers,

Peter
 

----------------------------------------------------

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of bty496052
Sent: Wednesday, 19 August 2009 9:25 AM
To: Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

The writer of the post below has not got a clue "Al Curatolo" I own a IIx
and had 2 Series III until Coldplay bought one if he's hinting at me which
he is. Dont give me "the price is the price" when peter held off and kept us
waiting and wouldnt give us a price till he worked it out he came back onto
the forum saying it would be $5000ish so dont make a comment if you dont
know what your talking about. Dont get me wrong i'm all on for the A30 CMI
and when i heard $5000ish the money was being put aside. I'm feed up with
people trying to rip people off within the fairlight community it has been
happening for years. I was told today that Fairlight are involve and
investing with this venture and that a meeting was held just over a week ago
and insisted they wanted to make money out of it hense the $12000 more and
that came from someone within Fairlight. If someone wants to give $17000 for
it well good for you but i wont be paying that. There is a bigger market for
this product than you think if it was $5000 at $17000 it will be limited
orders only. See what high prices and limited orders did to Fairlight in the
past. Look I call a spade a spade. Peter shouldnt have stated $5000 in the
first place then turned round and look over 3 times the amount. Thats like
asking a car dealer how much is the car he states $5000 then you go to get
your wallet out and he says that will be $17000 please it doesnt happen.
Peter good luck with the product but be prepaired for the flac.
Colin

Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-19 by Tobias Enhus

Btw, just as a price comparison for what you get for your money compared to some other top of the range products.

17k Buchla 200. Very expensive, but absolutely totally worth the price because of the complex hybrid design.

10k Will buy you a monster Synclavier. Expect a Power PC card, 96 voices 32 FM. AKA all you would ever want from a Synclav.

4k Kyma. Insane DSP. No other FFT product can even come close.

At 17k I would need the 30A to do some pretty outstanding stuff for me to replace my Synclav, or to add it to my existing arsenal. It can't just be a novelty item.

And again at 5K I would buy it no questions asked.

There's a collectors value in an old CMI. However the 30A is viewed as a modern work tool, and not a vintage product. It's the same way I compare a real B3 organ and a Nord stage. That means my expectations for the 30A is based on a modern gear performance comparison. It's gotta sound real good and deliver.

I'm very curious to hear what the 30A will do, blow me away Peter! But at 17k I'll be a pretty tough critic before I decide to drop the coin.

Tobias Enhus

On 18 aug 2009, at 16.34, Tobias Enhus wrote:

If the features, sound and quality really warrants the price tag, then fine.
However at 17k I would need a rather convincing demo and sales pitch, where as at 5k I would buy it on the mere word of the product.

Tobias

On 18 aug 2009, at 16.24, bty496052 wrote:

The writer of the post below has not got a clue "Al Curatolo" I own a IIx and had 2 Series III until Coldplay bought one if he's hinting at me which he is. Dont give me "the price is the price" when peter held off and kept us waiting and wouldnt give us a price till he worked it out he came back onto the forum saying it would be $5000ish so dont make a comment if you dont know what your talking about. Dont get me wrong i'm all on for the A30 CMI and when i heard $5000ish the money was being put aside. I'm feed up with people trying to rip people off within the fairlight community it has been happening for years. I was told today that Fairlight are involve and investing with this venture and that a meeting was held just over a week ago and insisted they wanted to make money out of it hense the $12000 more and that came from someone within Fairlight. If someone wants to give $17000 for it well good for you but i wont be paying that. There is a bigger market for this product than you think if it was $5000 at $17000 it will be limited orders only. See what high prices and limited orders did to Fairlight in the past. Look I call a spade a spade. Peter shouldnt have stated $5000 in the first place then turned round and look over 3 times the amount. Thats like asking a car dealer how much is the car he states $5000 then you go to get your wallet out and he says that will be $17000 please it doesnt happen. Peter good luck with the product but be prepaired for the flac.
Colin

Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-19 by Greg Holmes

Thank you, Peter.


Peter Vogel wrote:
> There is some confusion which I hope I can clear up.
> 
> The first product, the 30A is aimed squarely at the nostalgia market. I have
> said clearly that it is not intended to compete price-performance-wise with
> the many excellent products already on the market.
> 
> If that product is a success, it will pay for the software development which
> can then be deployed in a "no frills" package the Series IV, that is a card
> and software, which should be possible at the $5k figure I mentioned.
> 
> Fairlight.au is not investing in this project. It is my own initiative, and
> I will be paying Fairlight for the development. If someone within Fairlight
> said otherwise, they are mistaken. 
> 
> No-one is gouging. The price is calculated on a normal commercial basis. The
> major cost is the design and development for a small run of special items
> such as the wooden keyboard case.  For those who are not interested in the
> packaging, it indeed makes no sense to buy the 30A.
> 
> There is a huge difference in cost between what one can cobble together as a
> labour of love and what it costs to do something commercially, where
> programmers have to be paid for every day they work, someone has to answer
> phones, international shipping has to be paid for, distributors get their
> cut, and service and support must be paid for.  As a rough rule, the
> manufacturer makes about 10% of the end price. 
> 
> That's why products like Protools HD are in the price range they are.
> 
> I hope Colin is right about the market being bigger than I think at $5000
> and we will find out in due course.  If someone puts about $2m on the table
> to fund the development of a low-cost CMI I'd be very interested to cut
> straight to the chase!
> 
> There has been some good suggestions on this list about future directions,
> and I invite those interesting in pursuing the discussion to join the forum
> at www.fairlightinstruments.com.au
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter


-- 
Greg Holmes
GH Services, Ontario, Canada
http://www.ghservices.com/
http://www.gregholmes.com/

RE: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-19 by Peter Vogel

There's a fair amount of detail on my website
www.fairlightinstruments.com.au/specs.html

 

I repeat; Tobias you are not a likely customer for the 30A.  However you
might benefit from the development work which will lead to other products.

 

Peter

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Tobias Enhus
Sent: Wednesday, 19 August 2009 10:11 AM
To: Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

Btw, just as a price comparison for what you get for your money compared to
some other top of the range products.

17k Buchla 200. Very expensive, but absolutely totally worth the price
because of the complex hybrid design.

10k Will buy you a monster Synclavier. Expect a Power PC card, 96 voices 32
FM. AKA all you would ever want from a Synclav. 

4k Kyma. Insane DSP. No other FFT product can even come close.  

At 17k I would need the 30A to do some pretty outstanding stuff for me to
replace my Synclav, or to add it to my existing arsenal. It can't just be a
novelty item. 

And again at 5K I would buy it no questions asked. 

There's a collectors value in an old CMI. However the 30A is viewed as a
modern work tool, and not a vintage product. It's the same way I compare a
real B3 organ and a Nord stage. That means my expectations for the 30A is
based on a modern gear performance comparison. It's gotta sound real good
and deliver.

I'm very curious to hear what the 30A will do, blow me away Peter! But at
17k I'll be a pretty tough critic before I decide to drop the coin. 

Tobias Enhus

On 18 aug 2009, at 16.34, Tobias Enhus wrote:

If the features, sound and quality really warrants the price tag, then fine.

However at 17k I would need a rather convincing demo and sales pitch, where
as at 5k I would buy it on the mere word of the product.  

Tobias

On 18 aug 2009, at 16.24, bty496052 wrote:

The writer of the post below has not got a clue "Al Curatolo" I own a IIx
and had 2 Series III until Coldplay bought one if he's hinting at me which
he is. Dont give me "the price is the price" when peter held off and kept us
waiting and wouldnt give us a price till he worked it out he came back onto
the forum saying it would be $5000ish so dont make a comment if you dont
know what your talking about. Dont get me wrong i'm all on for the A30 CMI
and when i heard $5000ish the money was being put aside. I'm feed up with
people trying to rip people off within the fairlight community it has been
happening for years. I was told today that Fairlight are involve and
investing with this venture and that a meeting was held just over a week ago
and insisted they wanted to make money out of it hense the $12000 more and
that came from someone within Fairlight. If someone wants to give $17000 for
it well good for you but i wont be paying that. There is a bigger market for
this product than you think if it was $5000 at $17000 it will be limited
orders only. See what high prices and limited orders did to Fairlight in the
past. Look I call a spade a spade. Peter shouldnt have stated $5000 in the
first place then turned round and look over 3 times the amount. Thats like
asking a car dealer how much is the car he states $5000 then you go to get
your wallet out and he says that will be $17000 please it doesnt happen.
Peter good luck with the product but be prepaired for the flac.
Colin

Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-19 by Tobias Enhus

Cheers to that!

Tobias

On 18 aug 2009, at 17.40, Peter Vogel wrote:

There’s a fair amount of detail on my website www.fairlightinstruments.com.au/specs.html

I repeat; Tobias you are not a likely customer for the 30A. However you might benefit from the development work which will lead to other products.

Peter

From: Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Enhus
Sent: Wednesday, 19 August 2009 10:11 AM
To: Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

Btw, just as a price comparison for what you get for your money compared to some other top of the range products.

17k Buchla 200. Very expensive, but absolutely totally worth the price because of the complex hybrid design.

10k Will buy you a monster Synclavier. Expect a Power PC card, 96 voices 32 FM. AKA all you would ever want from a Synclav.

4k Kyma. Insane DSP. No other FFT product can even come close.

At 17k I would need the 30A to do some pretty outstanding stuff for me to replace my Synclav, or to add it to my existing arsenal. It can't just be a novelty item.
And again at 5K I would buy it no questions asked.
There's a collectors value in an old CMI. However the 30A is viewed as a modern work tool, and not a vintage product. It's the same way I compare a real B3 organ and a Nord stage. That means my expectations for the 30A is based on a modern gear performance comparison. It's gotta sound real good and deliver.

I'm very curious to hear what the 30A will do, blow me away Peter! But at 17k I'll be a pretty tough critic before I decide to drop the coin.

Tobias Enhus

On 18 aug 2009, at 16.34, Tobias Enhus wrote:

If the features, sound and quality really warrants the price tag, then fine.
However at 17k I would need a rather convincing demo and sales pitch, where as at 5k I would buy it on the mere word of the product.

Tobias

On 18 aug 2009, at 16.24, bty496052 wrote:

The writer of the post below has not got a clue "Al Curatolo" I own a IIx and had 2 Series III until Coldplay bought one if he's hinting at me which he is. Dont give me "the price is the price" when peter held off and kept us waiting and wouldnt give us a price till he worked it out he came back onto the forum saying it would be $5000ish so dont make a comment if you dont know what your talking about. Dont get me wrong i'm all on for the A30 CMI and when i heard $5000ish the money was being put aside. I'm feed up with people trying to rip people off within the fairlight community it has been happening for years. I was told today that Fairlight are involve and investing with this venture and that a meeting was held just over a week ago and insisted they wanted to make money out of it hense the $12000 more and that came from someone within Fairlight. If someone wants to give $17000 for it well good for you but i wont be paying that. There is a bigger market for this product than you think if it was $5000 at $17000 it will be limited orders only. See what high prices and limited orders did to Fairlight in the past. Look I call a spade a spade. Peter shouldnt have stated $5000 in the first place then turned round and look over 3 times the amount. Thats like asking a car dealer how much is the car he states $5000 then you go to get your wallet out and he says that will be $17000 please it doesnt happen. Peter good luck with the product but be prepaired for the flac.
Colin

Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-19 by Martin Selwood

Hi everyone,

At $17K for me its not going to happen, if it had been closer to $10K, that would have been closer to what I expected from Peters original estimate.

I really hope the interest/sales are generated and that the 30A is a success but I do agree with some of the others on here that had it been closer to $5K it would have put it within reach of a lot more people and I certainly would have been ordering one.

Lets hope there is enough interest to spark some further development more of us can afford.

Best regards, Martin

Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-19 by paradyse_james

Hello Peter, 

What will be the size and weight of the mainframe ? Will it be possible to sample the same way as the IIX ( il like to record à 16khz ! ) 

regards

James

Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-19 by Greg Holmes

Again, for clarification, Peter never made an original estimate of US$5K 
for the CMI-30A on this forum. He wrote (2009-08-08 22:55):

"Re pricing: yet to be finalised, but the choice to go with the CC-1 
does come at a price. Although the CC-1 is not sold currently as a 
separate card (it would be no use without the software etc that goes 
with it), the retail price would be around the $5,000 mark.  So you can 
do the sums, the CMI 30-A is not going to be price competitive with the 
mass-market synths which abound."

The "$5,000 mark" refers to an estimated retail price for the CC-1 card 
- BY ITSELF.

Perhaps Peter should not have suggested that we "do the sums", since 
most of us don't have experience calculating all the costs in commercial 
manufacturing.



-- 
Greg Holmes
GH Services, Ontario, Canada
http://www.ghservices.com/
http://www.gregholmes.com/

Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

2009-08-19 by colin.a.ross@btinternet.com

I have just read that posting thanks Greg and apologise to everyone for my ranting and raving yesterday there was me thinking I was getting a new fairlight sadly not. That card will not make a computer base fairlight sound like a CMI without cloning algorithims software. It would be interesting to know how Peter is going to do it. Colin

Sent via BlackBerry® from BT

From: Greg Holmes
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 11:36:11 -0400
To: <Fairlight-CMI@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Fairlight-CMI] Re: Fairlight CMI 30A

Again, for clarification, Peter never made an original estimate of US$5K
for the CMI-30A on this forum. He wrote (2009-08-08 22:55):

"Re pricing: yet to be finalised, but the choice to go with the CC-1
does come at a price. Although the CC-1 is not sold currently as a
separate card (it would be no use without the software etc that goes
with it), the retail price would be around the $5,000 mark. So you can
do the sums, the CMI 30-A is not going to be price competitive with the
mass-market synths which abound."

The "$5,000 mark" refers to an estimated retail price for the CC-1 card
- BY ITSELF.

Perhaps Peter should not have suggested that we "do the sums", since
most of us don't have experience calculating all the costs in commercial
manufacturing.

--
Greg Holmes
GH Services, Ontario, Canada
http://www.ghservices.com/
http://www.gregholmes.com/