Homebrew PCBs

Now I can seriously join Stefan in on all the fun....

I received my refurbished ($57) Epson R220 last week from the Epson
online store. The R220 will print on cd's.

Earlier today, I paid a visit to the local "Island Inkjet" kiosk at
the mall. Island inkjet refills cartiridges while you wait and also
sells ink. they were kind enough to "spot" some Durabrite-type pigment
ink on a pcb for testing.

After drying and etching, their ink seemed to have promise.

I went back and had them refill a standard Epson Black R220 cartridge
with black dye ink, just to watch the technique. It was interesting.
After puncturing the seal they inserted a plastic diaphragm in the
hole.  Then using syringes, one to push the ink in and another to
receive the vented air and ink. They actually flushed the cartridge
with new ink. Then sealed the diaphragm with a small ball and reset
the chip. The cost was about $8. The clerk's comment that this
cartridge was one of the most difficult to refill.

I then asked them to refill one of the R220 cartidges with pigment
ink. They declined, because of the flushing procedure and cross
contamination of their equipment and ink. I felt it was a reasonable
refusal. They were also concerned with their liabilities and guarantees.

I then explained that I would do it myself and was able to buy 30 ml
of the yellow pigment ink for $5. I also talked the clerk into selling
me a few of the diaphragms and sealer balls and resetting the other
cartridge. 

The grand total was $14. I now have spent a total of $71 out of pocket.

I'll post some pictures of the parts tommorow.

Well that's it for Report #1. The next step is to determine if the
pigment ink will flow through the print head.

Myc

PS. Anypne else out there working ith the Epson R220?

Links:

http://www.islandinkjet.com/

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152y@...>
wrote:
>
> Now I can seriously join Stefan in on all the fun....
> 
> I received my refurbished ($57) Epson R220 last week from the Epson
> online store. The R220 will print on cd's.
> <SNIP>

I measured a CD and found it to be about 4.7", is that the maximum
width the R220 can accept?   Also, does the R220 use a tray or a
direct feed?

Thanks.

The R220 uses a tray.  Based on previous posts, there seems to be some
optical sensors in the printer to detect the tray position. thre are also
"white" targets on the tray.

I plan on crawling before walking. The first step is to get the R220 to
print on the pcb. Only after that is successfull will I worry aboutthe size
of the pcb.

Myc

On 7/22/06, sethkoster <sethkoster@...> wrote:
>
>   --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152y@...>
>
> wrote:
> >
> > Now I can seriously join Stefan in on all the fun....
> >
> > I received my refurbished ($57) Epson R220 last week from the Epson
> > online store. The R220 will print on cd's.
> > <SNIP>
>
> I measured a CD and found it to be about 4.7", is that the maximum
> width the R220 can accept? Also, does the R220 use a tray or a
> direct feed?
>
> Thanks.
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mycroft,

Be careful trying to run a PCB in on that tray, I jammed my printer  
up real bad trying that.  I finally got it all back working normal 
again and won't be messing with that one anymore.

The good news is (not only did I save the other printer) that I was 
in office depot this past weekend to get a USB cable and they had an 
R220 on the clearance rack for $37.00 - I snatched it up right quick!

So, I now have two R220s - one designated for the PCB project.

I highly recommend you start out by running your printer normally 
for a while.  Print on some ordinary paper and watch all the sensors 
and such.  Then print on a some CDs for a while, again, watching all 
the sensors and determining what "Changes" when the printer is 
printing on CDs as opposed to paper.  

Based on my observations so far, I really think the goal isn't to 
use the existing CD Printing features.  Rather, I think it would be 
easier to work out a way to print the PCBs as if they were fed 
through the standard sheet feeder.

If you try to treat the PCBs as "CDs", the printer is going to use 
it's "SPecial logic" and may constrain the printing only in the area 
where a CD is suppose to be.  By working with the standard paper 
feeder's rear feed method, you should be able to print full size 
(8.5 X 11).

I have not had a chance to tinker yet but I think there would be a 
couple of things that have to be done.

1) when you print CDs it appears as though the print head moves up - 
so this needs to be done for printing on PCBs. Yet, when this is 
done, you dont want the printer thinking it is being fed a CD to 
print on!

2) There is a slot in the back to allow the CD tray to pass through 
for printing.  This is too narrow to allow a large PCB to pass 
through,  So, Figure out how to widen that slot. 

3) Determine what the printer senses to know paper is being fed and 
that there is paper in the printer.  Something needs to be done to 
trick the printer into seeing sensors behave normally while feeding 
a PCB into the newly widened back slot.

That's about all I have so far.  It may be weeks, possibly months 
before I can get back into it so I will be watching your progress 
with much interest!

Chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the comments and the suggestions.

This is my "spare" hackable R220 dedicated to the pcb project. My wife has
one that I've been using, at risk of death ;)

I've said that I want to crawl before I walk. At his point. I'm not
concerned with size of pcb, just getting a reliable method to direct print
on pcbs. I've got both CD thin and flexible copper that I can run through
the printer. Initially I'll only be making procedure trials on small
samples.

I'm filling the cartridges with test inks. I have the MIS ink coming in and
also have some local "Island Inkjet" ink to try.

One of the things that has not been discussed, is getting the artwork
printed in the correct ink. Generally, the pcb artwork prints in black. On a
dedicated printer the black cartridge can be replaced with the yellow ink.
Now the question is, whether the printing process for  a black cartridge is
different than color printing with a yellow cartridge.

It is only a moot point at the present time. Since the board prep,
"priming", dry / cure conditions and etching conditions are still not
clearly defined.

Voltan's  procedure has yet to be successfully and reliably repeated. We
have only heard from Voltan that it is do-able, but nothing about the
reliability. From Stefan's posts, his trials show a repeatability problem.

All in all, its going to be a fun project. I'll keep you posted. I'll
probably get back to work on my cnc pcb driller, during those "being really
frustrated and pissed off" breaks in the inkjet pcb project. :)

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

On 7/24/06, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
>   Mycroft,
>
> Be careful trying to run a PCB in on that tray, I jammed my printer
> up real bad trying that. I finally got it all back working normal
> again and won't be messing with that one anymore.
>
> The good news is (not only did I save the other printer) that I was
> in office depot this past weekend to get a USB cable and they had an
> R220 on the clearance rack for $37.00 - I snatched it up right quick!
>
> So, I now have two R220s - one designated for the PCB project.
>
> I highly recommend you start out by running your printer normally
> for a while. Print on some ordinary paper and watch all the sensors
> and such. Then print on a some CDs for a while, again, watching all
> the sensors and determining what "Changes" when the printer is
> printing on CDs as opposed to paper.
>
> Based on my observations so far, I really think the goal isn't to
> use the existing CD Printing features. Rather, I think it would be
> easier to work out a way to print the PCBs as if they were fed
> through the standard sheet feeder.
>
> If you try to treat the PCBs as "CDs", the printer is going to use
> it's "SPecial logic" and may constrain the printing only in the area
> where a CD is suppose to be. By working with the standard paper
> feeder's rear feed method, you should be able to print full size
> (8.5 X 11).
>
> I have not had a chance to tinker yet but I think there would be a
> couple of things that have to be done.
>
> 1) when you print CDs it appears as though the print head moves up -
> so this needs to be done for printing on PCBs. Yet, when this is
> done, you dont want the printer thinking it is being fed a CD to
> print on!
>
> 2) There is a slot in the back to allow the CD tray to pass through
> for printing. This is too narrow to allow a large PCB to pass
> through, So, Figure out how to widen that slot.
>
> 3) Determine what the printer senses to know paper is being fed and
> that there is paper in the printer. Something needs to be done to
> trick the printer into seeing sensors behave normally while feeding
> a PCB into the newly widened back slot.
>
> That's about all I have so far. It may be weeks, possibly months
> before I can get back into it so I will be watching your progress
> with much interest!
>
> Chris
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mycroft,

You brought up a good point that needs checking.  My first attempts 
will be with the Epson Ink I have on hand.  When I did some crude 
tests a while back, the yellow ink is what I had on hand and it sort 
of worked.

So, What I am wondering and thinkning of trying is to put the yellow 
cartridge in the slot for the black ink.  If the printer allows this 
(Does anyone know?), it will be a starting point for me.  Then as I 
make progress there, I will get some sort of refillable cartridge from 
MIS as I already have their ink.

Chris

Hi Chris,

My initial tests were run on an Epson C66 with Durabrite ink on flexible pcb
stock. The yellow "seemed " the best also.

I just ordered some MIS yellow ink also with a refillable cartridge. The
cartridge is now being offered prefilled with MIS pigment ink for $10.95. It
is an inexpensive way to get started. For dedicated pcb use, only one
cartridge is really needed.

In talking with Voltan, the MIS ink just happened to be the refill ink that
he uses. There was never any search for the best ink. It is a good starting
point, though.

I'm hoping the "Island Inkjet" ink from the mall will work as well. It is a
lot easier to make a quick trip to pick it up. Five bucks for 30 ml was
cheap, that was the minimum they would sell. I'm sure larger amounts are
less expensive per unit volume. 30 ml is still 3 cartridge refills.

I'm wondering myself if the C66 Durabrite cartidges will work in the the
R220.

Myc


On 7/24/06, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
>
> Mycroft,
>
> You brought up a good point that needs checking. My first attempts
> will be with the Epson Ink I have on hand. When I did some crude
> tests a while back, the yellow ink is what I had on hand and it sort
> of worked.
>
> So, What I am wondering and thinkning of trying is to put the yellow
> cartridge in the slot for the black ink. If the printer allows this
> (Does anyone know?), it will be a starting point for me. Then as I
> make progress there, I will get some sort of refillable cartridge from
> MIS as I already have their ink.
>
> Chris
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> The good news is (not only did I save the other printer) that I was 
> in office depot this past weekend to get a USB cable and they had an 
> R220 on the clearance rack for $37.00 - I snatched it up right quick!

Good deal on the printer, bad deal on the USB cable. Go to Wal-mart
next time. I'd even mail you a USB cable for $10. The prices office
supply stores ($25+) and big box computer stores ($35+) charge for USB
cables is a /huge/ ripoff.

Cables are a high profit item. The cost to the store is about $3.

Myc

On 7/24/06, fenrir_co <fenrir@...> wrote:
>
>   --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "lcdpublishing"
>
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> >
> > The good news is (not only did I save the other printer) that I was
> > in office depot this past weekend to get a USB cable and they had an
> > R220 on the clearance rack for $37.00 - I snatched it up right quick!
>
> Good deal on the printer, bad deal on the USB cable. Go to Wal-mart
> next time. I'd even mail you a USB cable for $10. The prices office
> supply stores ($25+) and big box computer stores ($35+) charge for USB
> cables is a /huge/ ripoff.
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Mycroft,
> 
> You brought up a good point that needs checking.  My first attempts 
> will be with the Epson Ink I have on hand.  When I did some crude 
> tests a while back, the yellow ink is what I had on hand and it sort 
> of worked.

If you are thinking of using the ink that came with the R220, you are
better off selling it on craigslist or eBay if you haven't opened them
yet. Those inks will definitely not work. I've gotten things to the
point where the print /looked/ nice, and heat-set the ink with an
iron, but they just wash away when put in etchant. 

 
> So, What I am wondering and thinkning of trying is to put the yellow 
> cartridge in the slot for the black ink.  If the printer allows this 
> (Does anyone know?), it will be a starting point for me.  Then as I 
> make progress there, I will get some sort of refillable cartridge 
> from 
> MIS as I already have their ink.
> 
> Chris
>

You would have to swap the chips on the cartridges. They're all shaped
the same, but the chips are different - and interchangable.

I just put in an order from the eBay seller InkJetCarts. While I can't
comment on the ink or cartridge quality yet, his customer service has
been miles above what I've gotten from MIS. He has PDFs with
photographs to show the best ways to prime refill carts on the first
use. His sets of resettable cartridges and inks for the C88 and the
R200 series are half the price of what MIS charges. Once I get my C88
refill kit and start using it, I'll post a review. While I'm using my
C88 for high volume document printing, and not PCB work, I'll try
using some of his inks to print on a thin copper sheet. From what I
can tell, I think he gets the ink from the same supplier as MIS (Image
Specialists), but I'm not 100% sure.

Try second hand stores/thrift shops - all my USB & Ethernet cables were 
$1.99 or less.  You do get an occasional bad one, but on balance, I'm 
way ahead on variety of lengths and low price.

Norm


>
> Good deal on the printer, bad deal on the USB cable. Go to Wal-mart
> next time. I'd even mail you a USB cable for $10. The prices office
> supply stores ($25+) and big box computer stores ($35+) charge for USB
> cables is a /huge/ ripoff.
>
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I had previousy tried the dye based ink from the R220. Yup, it just washes
away.

The carts that came with my R220 are going to my wife for use with her R220.
The cost of the R220 was the same as a new set of Epson carts. SHE likes the
Epson carts, I've learned not to argue with her on certain subjects. But I
ended up with a "free" R220 printer to play with and all her empty carts.

I had one of the Epson R220 carts refilled at Island Inkjet with dye ink for
$8 and watched the technique. A couple of tricks, but not very difficult.

My goal is to make this procedure as simple as possible, so the average guy
can use it. Similar to the  current Toner Transfer method. No special hacks
to the printer or spending a lot of money to start. There are always a few
who will go to extremes of time and money to make something work, but it is
not practical.

Myc

On 7/24/06, fenrir_co <fenrir@...> wrote:
>
>   --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "lcdpublishing"
>
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mycroft,
> >
> > You brought up a good point that needs checking. My first attempts
> > will be with the Epson Ink I have on hand. When I did some crude
> > tests a while back, the yellow ink is what I had on hand and it sort
> > of worked.
>
> If you are thinking of using the ink that came with the R220, you are
> better off selling it on craigslist or eBay if you haven't opened them
> yet. Those inks will definitely not work. I've gotten things to the
> point where the print /looked/ nice, and heat-set the ink with an
> iron, but they just wash away when put in etchant.
>
>
> > So, What I am wondering and thinkning of trying is to put the yellow
> > cartridge in the slot for the black ink. If the printer allows this
> > (Does anyone know?), it will be a starting point for me. Then as I
> > make progress there, I will get some sort of refillable cartridge
> > from
> > MIS as I already have their ink.
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
> You would have to swap the chips on the cartridges. They're all shaped
> the same, but the chips are different - and interchangable.
>
> I just put in an order from the eBay seller InkJetCarts. While I can't
> comment on the ink or cartridge quality yet, his customer service has
> been miles above what I've gotten from MIS. He has PDFs with
> photographs to show the best ways to prime refill carts on the first
> use. His sets of resettable cartridges and inks for the C88 and the
> R200 series are half the price of what MIS charges. Once I get my C88
> refill kit and start using it, I'll post a review. While I'm using my
> C88 for high volume document printing, and not PCB work, I'll try
> using some of his inks to print on a thin copper sheet. From what I
> can tell, I think he gets the ink from the same supplier as MIS (Image
> Specialists), but I'm not 100% sure.
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:17:20 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...m> wrote:

>
> So, What I am wondering and thinkning of trying is to put the yellow
> cartridge in the slot for the black ink.  If the printer allows this
> (Does anyone know?), it will be a starting point for me.  Then as I
> make progress there, I will get some sort of refillable cartridge from
> MIS as I already have their ink.


The printer does not know what ink is in it. It doesn't even know if you  
fill in distilled water, or if it runs dry.
I put the yellow ink in the yellow cart, but put that cart in the black  
position. The C84 has the chips in parallel so it does not know which cart  
is where. The idea was to keep the yellow cart yellow. But now i had to  
add some black for visibility. Not a problem spongeless carts are easy to  
clean.


About the carts, i bought mine at <http://www.4-u-all.com>, much cheaper  
than MIS and in the EU. I can recommend them, especially for people in the  
EU, the import may not work out cheaper for you.


I got my printer working again, and have some things to report in my next  
mail.

ST

I didn't understand you reliability question, if possible please explain a little bit more, what are your reliability criteria? Do you mean successful repeatability or reliable as TT :)? Please don't ask me to have 99% success rate.

I could be able print on pcb without any failure, it may be because of the printer that I am using. The main thing is, board needs to be clean, free of finger print, dust, and grease like required in TT process and you need to use as many colors as possible to decrease the effects of clogged nozzle. I am always using 3 colors. I didn't do 100 pcbs with this technique but I can say that, at least for me, success rate is much higher than TT. If someone plans to do double layer PCB with CNC drill or applying solder resist then there is no chance to do it with TT, either he needs to use photo-resist /dry-film or direct inkjet.
 The curing process is the key for direct printing, you need to cure it until seeing some smoke on pcb, ink color becomes much darker and copper will be oxidized. I think after a few trials you will understand what I mean. 
 Good luck,
 Volkan
  
....successfully and reliably repeated. We have only heard from Voltan that it is do-able, but nothing about the 
 reliability. From Stefan's posts, his trials show a repeatability problem.

OKay, so it looks like the printer does not know which cartridge is 
in which slot - so that's good. I didn't think it could tell by the 
color of the ink, rather, that damn chip everyone is having troubles 
with.

Anyway, I guess this ink won't work anyway, so I will have to get a 
refillable cartridge.

I did take a few minutes earlier to look at the path through that 
printer.  It doesn't appear to be as clear as I had hoped :-(  
Obviously, the area where the CD passes through is clear. However, 
the area on the other end is blocked by something. I believe it is 
the paper feeder thing - very deep in the printer so didn't get to 
look really good at it.

GRRRR, don't these printer Mfgs. know that we have a "Special 
purpose" for these printers that requires a clear - straight and 
flat path for our PCBs!  ;-)

Chris

Hi Voltan,

First of all, I congratulate you on a great idea and the work  cleverness
that have made it work for you.. I agree, a 99% reliability rate is not
needed, just somewhat equal to Toner Transfer.

As part of my research chemist background, I find it is important to
identify and document all the details for repeatable results.  The key is in
the details.

I've been following your work and am trying to repeat it. It is frustrating
when it fails and  appears that the process has been duplicated. Until just
recently, the use of Brake Fluid to reduce surface tension and now the fact
3 sets of nozzles / cartridges are being used to correct coverage problems
has been published. It is very normal that some details the you just  take
for granted are especially important and need to be mentioned.

These are the missed details that slow down the progress by others. After
all, it has been 4 months since your original post and no one yet has
successfully duplicated your results.

It could be similar to Toner Transfer, where apparently minor variations
have a major impact.

Again, I apologize if it appears that I am disparaging you efforts, but I am
trying to get a grasp on all the details to be able to repeat them.

Myc

On 7/24/06, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
>
>    I didn't understand you reliability question, if possible please
> explain a little bit more, what are your reliability criteria? Do you mean
> successful repeatability or reliable as TT :)? Please don't ask me to have
> 99% success rate.
>
> I could be able print on pcb without any failure, it may be because of the
> printer that I am using. The main thing is, board needs to be clean, free of
> finger print, dust, and grease like required in TT process and you need to
> use as many colors as possible to decrease the effects of clogged nozzle. I
> am always using 3 colors. I didn't do 100 pcbs with this technique but I can
> say that, at least for me, success rate is much higher than TT. If someone
> plans to do double layer PCB with CNC drill or applying solder resist then
> there is no chance to do it with TT, either he needs to use photo-resist
> /dry-film or direct inkjet.
> The curing process is the key for direct printing, you need to cure it
> until seeing some smoke on pcb, ink color becomes much darker and copper
> will be oxidized. I think after a few trials you will understand what I
> mean.
> Good luck,
> Volkan
>
> ....successfully and reliably repeated. We have only heard from Voltan
> that it is do-able, but nothing about the
>
> reliability. From Stefan's posts, his trials show a repeatability problem.
>
>
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:44:19 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>  
wrote:

>
> Again, I apologize if it appears that I am disparaging you efforts, but  
> I am
> trying to get a grasp on all the details to be able to repeat them.
> Myc


It does! and you could make more of an effort to get names right ;-)

Volkan did not / does not use the brake fluid all the time, it is not  
necessarily needed.
Also all colors are not needed, he tried yellow only upon my request and  
it worked just fine.
As he says - using all colors is to avoid problems with non-working  
nozzles. If you make a nozzle test before printing to ensure all are  
firing this is not required.

So please do carefully read the details that are given.

ST

I apologize for mistyping Volkan's name.

I am merely stating the facts about the status of pcb inkjet printing. It
looks like it could be a great technique, but it is a long way from being
practical. Looking at it through rose colored glasses and happy talk won't
make any progress.,

The point is Stefan, the details ARE important. Whether sometimes this is
used and sometimes that is done is important. This has to be part of the
discussion.

Of course, you CAN do a nozzle test before hand. But as Volkan said, he uses
THREE nozzles to increase reliabilty.

We need to find out EXACTLY what works for one person so it can be tried.

Let's just put aside the pissing match for a while and make this thing work
together. I would rather spend the time working on the project than playing
mind games with you.  If you want the credit and ego boost for making it
work - take it! It'll always be Volkan's procedure to me..

Myc

On 7/24/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:44:19 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Again, I apologize if it appears that I am disparaging you efforts, but
> > I am
> > trying to get a grasp on all the details to be able to repeat them.
> > Myc
>
>
> It does! and you could make more of an effort to get names right ;-)
>
> Volkan did not / does not use the brake fluid all the time, it is not
> necessarily needed.
> Also all colors are not needed, he tried yellow only upon my request and
> it worked just fine.
> As he says - using all colors is to avoid problems with non-working
> nozzles. If you make a nozzle test before printing to ensure all are
> firing this is not required.
>
> So please do carefully read the details that are given.
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Definitely, brake fluid is not necessary. If your board is clean ink sticks good enough. I am only using it while printing on the other side of  2 layer pcb since board start to oxidize while drying step of first side. If you use brake fluid be sure that  it is very very thin and ink settings of the printer is at minimum otherwise ink will start to cover whole board. As Stefan says, 3-colors are only required if you are not sure about the status of the nozzles. I am lazy enough to do nozzle test each time so this is my approach. As an ink mixture I am using 90% yellow+10%magenta MIS inks in all cartridges except black. The black cartridge is filled with only water in my printer.
  
Volkan 
.....not use the brake fluid all the time, it is not  necessarily needed.

Then how about stopping the complaining and getting your behind to the  
printer and _doing_ things?
I for one am damn glad Volkan shared this with us at all, and i won't  
stand idly by while someone complains that he didn't say this or that,  
especially when he had in fact all along and you just didn't read it. In  
one of the very first posts he said he uses several colors at once!
Some people are just never satisfied with anything...

Remember not all people are as competitive as you are, i will just trust  
people to know me well enough so that i don't even have to be offended by  
your last remark.

ST


On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:21:28 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>  
wrote:

> I apologize for mistyping Volkan's name.
> I am merely stating the facts about the status of pcb inkjet printing. It
> looks like it could be a great technique, but it is a long way from being
> practical. Looking at it through rose colored glasses and happy talk  
> won't
> make any progress.,
> The point is Stefan, the details ARE important. Whether sometimes this is
> used and sometimes that is done is important. This has to be part of the
> discussion.
> Of course, you CAN do a nozzle test before hand. But as Volkan said, he  
> uses
> THREE nozzles to increase reliabilty.
> We need to find out EXACTLY what works for one person so it can be tried.
> Let's just put aside the pissing match for a while and make this thing  
> work
> together. I would rather spend the time working on the project than  
> playing
> mind games with you.  If you want the credit and ego boost for making it
> work - take it! It'll always be Volkan's procedure to me..
> Myc

Heyyyy, 
    
What is going on? We are all at the same side. No need to hate each other and never loose positive approach. 
 Agree all details are important may be I am doing something which is clear for me but not clear everyone else. So, I am open to explain everything that I know on this topic. 
 I have always tried to share everything that I have experienced on the list and never try to keep the things as secret.
    
Volkan 
 
 ... EXACTLY what works for one person so it can be tried. 
  Let's just put aside the pissing match for a while and make this thing work 
 together.

Careful in your accusations Stefan. This is not a competition for me. It is
an interesting project period. Toner Transfer works for me. If I could
inkjet print the solder mask it would be a success.

The lack of postings doesn't mean I am not working on the project.when there
is something helpful to post, I will.

I don't also post every time I wipe my butt, or that I wiped it successfully
three years ago and here is how to do it on every group that I belong to.

Thirty years in industry as a technical manager has taught me to speak
frankly and report all of the information, the successes and the failures
when brainstorming. Ego's aside, it achieves results.

Don't put words in my mouth. Volkan's efforts to date have been amazing and
appreciated and I have said so repeatedly.

Note:
There is a major difference in using multiple colors and using multiple
heads. Would your previous striping problems have been minimized by using
multiple heads?

Myc


On 7/24/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Then how about stopping the complaining and getting your behind to the
> printer and _doing_ things?
> I for one am damn glad Volkan shared this with us at all, and i won't
> stand idly by while someone complains that he didn't say this or that,
> especially when he had in fact all along and you just didn't read it. In
> one of the very first posts he said he uses several colors at once!
> Some people are just never satisfied with anything...
>
> Remember not all people are as competitive as you are, i will just trust
> people to know me well enough so that i don't even have to be offended by
> your last remark.
>
> ST
>
>
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:21:28 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>
> wrote:
>
> > I apologize for mistyping Volkan's name.
> > I am merely stating the facts about the status of pcb inkjet printing.
> It
> > looks like it could be a great technique, but it is a long way from
> being
> > practical. Looking at it through rose colored glasses and happy talk
> > won't
> > make any progress.,
> > The point is Stefan, the details ARE important. Whether sometimes this
> is
> > used and sometimes that is done is important. This has to be part of the
> > discussion.
> > Of course, you CAN do a nozzle test before hand. But as Volkan said, he
> > uses
> > THREE nozzles to increase reliabilty.
> > We need to find out EXACTLY what works for one person so it can be
> tried.
> > Let's just put aside the pissing match for a while and make this thing
> > work
> > together. I would rather spend the time working on the project than
> > playing
> > mind games with you.  If you want the credit and ego boost for making it
> > work - take it! It'll always be Volkan's procedure to me..
> > Myc
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I realy doubt that big places like wally world
and home office dungeon realy pay 3 $ for a USB
cable.

That is just proposterous.

3 $ is way too much.

I pay $16.50 (Australian = $13 USD) for 10 of
1.5 meter USB A-B cables.

Thats 1.65 $ ($1.30 USD) each and I am only
buying 10 at a time.  I would imagine that the
big guys would pay sub $1 :D

It amazing they can survive on only 97% GP
markups isn't it :S

> MYC wrote:
> Cables are a high profit item. The cost to the
> store is about $3.

>> Lots of people wrote:
>> <stuff about USB cable cost>

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 01:04:07 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

> I realy doubt that big places like wally world
> and home office dungeon realy pay 3 $ for a USB
> cable.
> That is just proposterous.
> 3 $ is way too much.
> I pay $16.50 (Australian = $13 USD) for 10 of
> 1.5 meter USB A-B cables.
> Thats 1.65 $ ($1.30 USD) each and I am only
> buying 10 at a time.  I would imagine that the
> big guys would pay sub $1 :D
> It amazing they can survive on only 97% GP
> markups isn't it :S


Same here, i bought a LAN cable at the wrong store for a similarly  
incredible price.

ST

Based on all the "Super shopper" comments I got about my USB cable, 
perhaps someone knows where I can buy some USB Hubs at good prices?

I recall them being fairly cheap a few years ago and they seem to be 
going UP in price rather than DOWN.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 01:04:07 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
> 
> > I realy doubt that big places like wally world
> > and home office dungeon realy pay 3 $ for a USB
> > cable.
> > That is just proposterous.
> > 3 $ is way too much.
> > I pay $16.50 (Australian = $13 USD) for 10 of
> > 1.5 meter USB A-B cables.
> > Thats 1.65 $ ($1.30 USD) each and I am only
> > buying 10 at a time.  I would imagine that the
> > big guys would pay sub $1 :D
> > It amazing they can survive on only 97% GP
> > markups isn't it :S
> 
> 
> Same here, i bought a LAN cable at the wrong store for a 
similarly  

> incredible price.
> 
> ST
>

Hi Myc Holmes,
    Based on your research chemist background, maybe we can utilize your 
experience in that regard.
I have been racking my brain tryng to think of chemicals that may be 
suitable as an ink replacement for printing PCB etch resist.

I am thinking that a two part ink similar to an epoxy  would be the 
best.  My C88 printer  has 120 black jets and 179 jets for the colours.

Therefore if we can work out a two part ink then the black jets could 
lay down PART A with the remaining colour jets laying down the PART B to 
set
it.

Naturally these substances would need to have a similar 
physical/chemical properties as the inks which the printer is supposed 
to use and most likely need to have a fairly neutral pH.

Any ideas?

Cheers,
David


Myc Holmes wrote:

>Hi Voltan,
>
>First of all, I congratulate you on a great idea and the work  cleverness
>that have made it work for you.. I agree, a 99% reliability rate is not
>needed, just somewhat equal to Toner Transfer.
>
>As part of my research chemist background, I find it is important to
>identify and document all the details for repeatable results.  The key is in
>the details.
>
>I've been following your work and am trying to repeat it. It is frustrating
>when it fails and  appears that the process has been duplicated. Until just
>recently, the use of Brake Fluid to reduce surface tension and now the fact
>3 sets of nozzles / cartridges are being used to correct coverage problems
>has been published. It is very normal that some details the you just  take
>for granted are especially important and need to be mentioned.
>
>These are the missed details that slow down the progress by others. After
>all, it has been 4 months since your original post and no one yet has
>successfully duplicated your results.
>
>It could be similar to Toner Transfer, where apparently minor variations
>have a major impact.
>
>Again, I apologize if it appears that I am disparaging you efforts, but I am
>trying to get a grasp on all the details to be able to repeat them.
>
>Myc
>
>On 7/24/06, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
>  
>
>>   I didn't understand you reliability question, if possible please
>>explain a little bit more, what are your reliability criteria? Do you mean
>>successful repeatability or reliable as TT :)? Please don't ask me to have
>>99% success rate.
>>
>>I could be able print on pcb without any failure, it may be because of the
>>printer that I am using. The main thing is, board needs to be clean, free of
>>finger print, dust, and grease like required in TT process and you need to
>>use as many colors as possible to decrease the effects of clogged nozzle. I
>>am always using 3 colors. I didn't do 100 pcbs with this technique but I can
>>say that, at least for me, success rate is much higher than TT. If someone
>>plans to do double layer PCB with CNC drill or applying solder resist then
>>there is no chance to do it with TT, either he needs to use photo-resist
>>/dry-film or direct inkjet.
>>The curing process is the key for direct printing, you need to cure it
>>until seeing some smoke on pcb, ink color becomes much darker and copper
>>will be oxidized. I think after a few trials you will understand what I
>>mean.
>>Good luck,
>>Volkan
>>
>>....successfully and reliably repeated. We have only heard from Voltan
>>that it is do-able, but nothing about the
>>
>>reliability. From Stefan's posts, his trials show a repeatability problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
> 
> ** ACCEPT: CRM114 PASS Markovian Matcher ** 
>CLASSIFY succeeds; success probability: 1.0000  pR: 43.8618
>Best match to file #0 (nonspam.css) prob: 1.0000  pR: 43.8618  
>Total features in input file: 6086
>#0 (nonspam.css): features: 1603168, hits: 161233, prob: 1.00e+00, pR:  43.86 
>#1 (spam.css): features: 797120, hits: 122054, prob: 1.37e-44, pR: -43.86 
> 
>-=-Extra Stuff-=-
>
>  From sentto-4505361-15314-1153763115-yahoo=dcureton.com@... Tue Jul 25 03:45:23 2006
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>>X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0
> From: "Myc Holmes" <mycroft2152y@...>
>X-Yahoo-Profile: mycroft2152
>Sender: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:44:19 -0400
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report #1
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Hi Voltan,
>
>First of all, I congratulate you on a great idea and the work  cleverness
>that have made it work for you.. I agree, a 99% reliability rate is not
>needed, just somewhat equal to Toner Transfer.
>
>As part of my research chemist background, I find it is important to
>identify and document all the details for repeatable results.  The key is in
>the details.
>
>I've been following your work and am trying to repeat it. It is frustrating
>when it fails and  appears that the process has been duplicated. Until just
>recently, the use of Brake Fluid to reduce surface tension and now the fact
>3 sets of nozzles / cartridges are being used to correct coverage problems
>has been published. It is very normal that some details the you just  take
>for granted are especially important and need to be mentioned.
>
>These are the missed details that slow down the progress by others. After
>all, it has been 4 months since your original post and no one yet has
>successfully duplicated your results.
>
>It could be similar to Toner Transfer, where apparently minor variations
>have a major impact.
>
>Again, I apologize if it appears that I am disparaging you efforts, but I am
>trying to get a grasp on all the detai 
>  
>  
> -0-0-0- 
>  
>

I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using a UV 
cured Ink.  My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured ink but 
being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the courage to 
try and run a PCB through it.

With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print head puts 
the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV light 
source that cures it instantly.  

Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through it, but 
that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.

Just some thoughts.

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Cureton <yahoo@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi Myc Holmes,
>     Based on your research chemist background, maybe we can 
utilize your 
> experience in that regard.
> I have been racking my brain tryng to think of chemicals that may 
be 
> suitable as an ink replacement for printing PCB etch resist.
> 
> I am thinking that a two part ink similar to an epoxy  would be 
the 
> best.  My C88 printer  has 120 black jets and 179 jets for the 
colours.
> 
> Therefore if we can work out a two part ink then the black jets 
could 
> lay down PART A with the remaining colour jets laying down the 
PART B to 
> set
> it.
> 
> Naturally these substances would need to have a similar 
> physical/chemical properties as the inks which the printer is 
supposed 
> to use and most likely need to have a fairly neutral pH.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Cheers,
> David
> 
> 
> Myc Holmes wrote:
> 
> >Hi Voltan,
> >
> >First of all, I congratulate you on a great idea and the work  
cleverness
> >that have made it work for you.. I agree, a 99% reliability rate 
is not
> >needed, just somewhat equal to Toner Transfer.
> >
> >As part of my research chemist background, I find it is important 
to
> >identify and document all the details for repeatable results.  
The key is in
> >the details.
> >
> >I've been following your work and am trying to repeat it. It is 
frustrating
> >when it fails and  appears that the process has been duplicated. 
Until just
> >recently, the use of Brake Fluid to reduce surface tension and 
now the fact
> >3 sets of nozzles / cartridges are being used to correct coverage 
problems
> >has been published. It is very normal that some details the you 
just  take
> >for granted are especially important and need to be mentioned.
> >
> >These are the missed details that slow down the progress by 
others. After
> >all, it has been 4 months since your original post and no one yet 
has
> >successfully duplicated your results.
> >
> >It could be similar to Toner Transfer, where apparently minor 
variations
> >have a major impact.
> >
> >Again, I apologize if it appears that I am disparaging you 
efforts, but I am
> >trying to get a grasp on all the details to be able to repeat 
them.
> >
> >Myc
> >
> >On 7/24/06, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>   I didn't understand you reliability question, if possible 
please
> >>explain a little bit more, what are your reliability criteria? 
Do you mean
> >>successful repeatability or reliable as TT :)? Please don't ask 
me to have
> >>99% success rate.
> >>
> >>I could be able print on pcb without any failure, it may be 
because of the
> >>printer that I am using. The main thing is, board needs to be 
clean, free of
> >>finger print, dust, and grease like required in TT process and 
you need to
> >>use as many colors as possible to decrease the effects of 
clogged nozzle. I
> >>am always using 3 colors. I didn't do 100 pcbs with this 
technique but I can
> >>say that, at least for me, success rate is much higher than TT. 
If someone
> >>plans to do double layer PCB with CNC drill or applying solder 
resist then
> >>there is no chance to do it with TT, either he needs to use 
photo-resist
> >>/dry-film or direct inkjet.
> >>The curing process is the key for direct printing, you need to 
cure it
> >>until seeing some smoke on pcb, ink color becomes much darker 
and copper
> >>will be oxidized. I think after a few trials you will understand 
what I
> >>mean.
> >>Good luck,
> >>Volkan
> >>
> >>....successfully and reliably repeated. We have only heard from 
Voltan
> >>that it is do-able, but nothing about the
> >>
> >>reliability. From Stefan's posts, his trials show a 
repeatability problem.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, 
and Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> >If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> > ** ACCEPT: CRM114 PASS Markovian Matcher ** 
> >CLASSIFY succeeds; success probability: 1.0000  pR: 43.8618
> >Best match to file #0 (nonspam.css) prob: 1.0000  pR: 43.8618  
> >Total features in input file: 6086
> >#0 (nonspam.css): features: 1603168, hits: 161233, prob: 
1.00e+00, pR:  43.86 
> >#1 (spam.css): features: 797120, hits: 122054, prob: 1.37e-44, 
pR: -43.86 
> > 
> >-=-Extra Stuff-=-
> >
> >  From sentto-4505361-15314-1153763115-yahoo=dcureton.com@... Tue 
Jul 25 03:45:23 2006
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> >> >X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0
> > From: "Myc Holmes" <mycroft2152y@...>
> >X-Yahoo-Profile: mycroft2152
> >Sender: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
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Homebrew_PCBs-owner@yahoogroups.com
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> >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:44:19 -0400
> >Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report #1
> >Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> >Hi Voltan,
> >
> >First of all, I congratulate you on a great idea and the work  
cleverness
> >that have made it work for you.. I agree, a 99% reliability rate 
is not
> >needed, just somewhat equal to Toner Transfer.
> >
> >As part of my research chemist background, I find it is important 
to
> >identify and document all the details for repeatable results.  
The key is in
> >the details.
> >
> >I've been following your work and am trying to repeat it. It is 
frustrating
> >when it fails and  appears that the process has been duplicated. 
Until just
> >recently, the use of Brake Fluid to reduce surface tension and 
now the fact
> >3 sets of nozzles / cartridges are being used to correct coverage 
problems
> >has been published. It is very normal that some details the you 
just  take
> >for granted are especially important and need to be mentioned.
> >
> >These are the missed details that slow down the progress by 
others. After
> >all, it has been 4 months since your original post and no one yet 
has
> >successfully duplicated your results.
> >
> >It could be similar to Toner Transfer, where apparently minor 
variations
> >have a major impact.
> >
> >Again, I apologize if it appears that I am disparaging you 
efforts, but I am

> >trying to get a grasp on all the detai 
> >  
> >  
> > -0-0-0- 
> >  
> >
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "David Cureton" <yahoo@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report #1


> Hi Myc Holmes,
>    Based on your research chemist background, maybe we can utilize your
> experience in that regard.
> I have been racking my brain tryng to think of chemicals that may be
> suitable as an ink replacement for printing PCB etch resist.

I've just bought an Epson D88, and am returning it because it won't print 
properly on transparency material (confirmed by Epson) as the ink is 
pigment-based. I noticed that the ink (Durabrite Ultra) is claimed to be 
waterproof, I think that someone else has mentioned this.

It looks like I'll be swapping the D88 for an R220. That uses dye-based ink 
which should be OK for my PCB artwork.

Leon

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report #1


>I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using a UV
> cured Ink.  My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured ink but
> being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the courage to
> try and run a PCB through it.
>
> With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print head puts
> the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV light
> source that cures it instantly.
>
> Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through it, but
> that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.

That's how industrial ink jet printers work, for printing on all sorts of 
materials, including PCBs.

Leon

I would think a UV cure system would be they way to go. You could even
'cure' the board outside the printer. Unless your are very careful, light
'spillage" in the printer will cure the ink on the head or glue the head to
excess ink pad.

The high solids UV cure systems are used to reduce VOC (Volatile Organic
compounds) emissions in industry to meet air quality standards. These still
do have minor amounts of solvents and tend to be very viscous (thick).

Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how does it compare
to the MIS  or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow characteristics)? Is the
inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle does it use?

So what is needed? Starting with an Epson piezo print head, you need a
fluid  that has the same flow and drying characteristics as the pigment ink.
That means, water based, small particle size, and 'slow' drying. Also it has
to have the proper wetting out characteristics and adhesion to the prepared
copper pcb, both before and after the cure step. Of course it has to be
applied in a layer thick enough and durable to survive the etching bath.

Finally, it has to be KISS simple, inexpensive and easily available.

I've been thinking about this for quite a while, and the only possibility
that I have been able to come up with, short of specially compounding, is
the spray-on photo sensitizing liquid for pcbs. It has the proper after
printer characteristics. the question is what needs to be done to get it
through the EPSON print head successfully.

Up until just recently, I have not had an Epson printer to experiment with,
only the Lexmarks's that use the vaporized droplet method. Since there are 6
separate heads on the R220, I think a few could be sacrificed to try this.

Myc



On 7/25/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@... <lcdpublishing%40yahoo.com>
> >
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:12 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report #1
>
> >I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using a UV
> > cured Ink. My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured ink but
> > being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the courage to
> > try and run a PCB through it.
> >
> > With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print head puts
> > the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV light
> > source that cures it instantly.
> >
> > Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through it, but
> > that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.
>
> That's how industrial ink jet printers work, for printing on all sorts of
> materials, including PCBs.
>
> Leon
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:07:11 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...m> wrote:

> Based on all the "Super shopper" comments I got about my USB cable,
> perhaps someone knows where I can buy some USB Hubs at good prices?
> I recall them being fairly cheap a few years ago and they seem to be
> going UP in price rather than DOWN.


I agree!
I was surprised when i needed one!

Ebay ought to have one for 1eur, but there's the shipping...

My PC is a bit funny with the USB. First it wouldn't want to know the  
digital camera, so i bought a separate card reader. that worked until i  
installed xp again after a hd failure, then the reader wouldn't work but  
the camera would. By then i liked the reader better so in the end i got  
another reader. Same with keyboards. It doesn't like it at all if i use  
phone cable for USB, especially if over a few meters. Works for a while,  
then doesn't. Crap really that USB...

ST

The $3  was based on the what one of my family members who worked at a
national retail computer chain could buy the cable for "at cost". I'm sure
the store's "cost" included advertising, shipping, overhead,etc.

The USB spec calls for a cable of a maximum length of about 2 meters, so any
longer kluged telephone cables will have probelms.

Myc



On 7/25/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:07:11 +0200, lcdpublishing
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> > Based on all the "Super shopper" comments I got about my USB cable,
> > perhaps someone knows where I can buy some USB Hubs at good prices?
> > I recall them being fairly cheap a few years ago and they seem to be
> > going UP in price rather than DOWN.
>
>
> I agree!
> I was surprised when i needed one!
>
> Ebay ought to have one for 1eur, but there's the shipping...
>
> My PC is a bit funny with the USB. First it wouldn't want to know the
> digital camera, so i bought a separate card reader. that worked until i
> installed xp again after a hd failure, then the reader wouldn't work but
> the camera would. By then i liked the reader better so in the end i got
> another reader. Same with keyboards. It doesn't like it at all if i use
> phone cable for USB, especially if over a few meters. Works for a while,
> then doesn't. Crap really that USB...
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I want to find UV curable conductive ink.
I once found a company that had a conductive ink that "set"
at 150 Centigrade.  Then it could be used above that temperature
after it was cooled.

AGSC

On 2006-Jul 25, at 06:12hrs AM, lcdpublishing wrote:

I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using a UV
cured Ink. My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured ink but
being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the courage to
try and run a PCB through it.

With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print head puts
the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV light
source that cures it instantly.

Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through it, but
that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.

Just some thoughts.

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Cureton <yahoo@...>
wrote:
 >
 > Hi Myc Holmes,
 > Based on your research chemist background, maybe we can
utilize your
 > experience in that regard.
 > I have been racking my brain tryng to think of chemicals that may
be
 > suitable as an ink replacement for printing PCB etch resist.
 >
 > I am thinking that a two part ink similar to an epoxy would be
the
 > best. My C88 printer has 120 black jets and 179 jets for the
colours.
 >
 > Therefore if we can work out a two part ink then the black jets
could
 > lay down PART A with the remaining colour jets laying down the
PART B to
 > set
 > it.
 >
 > Naturally these substances would need to have a similar
 > physical/chemical properties as the inks which the printer is
supposed
 > to use and most likely need to have a fairly neutral pH.
 >
 > Any ideas?
 >
 > Cheers,
 > David
 >
 >
 > Myc Holmes wrote:
 >
 > >Hi Voltan,
 > >
 > >First of all, I congratulate you on a great idea and the work
cleverness
 > >that have made it work for you.. I agree, a 99% reliability rate
is not
 > >needed, just somewhat equal to Toner Transfer.
 > >
 > >As part of my research chemist background, I find it is important
to
 > >identify and document all the details for repeatable results.
The key is in
 > >the details.
 > >
 > >I've been following your work and am trying to repeat it. It is
frustrating
 > >when it fails and appears that the process has been duplicated.
Until just
 > >recently, the use of Brake Fluid to reduce surface tension and
now the fact
 > >3 sets of nozzles / cartridges are being used to correct coverage
problems
 > >has been published. It is very normal that some details the you
just take
 > >for granted are especially important and need to be mentioned.
 > >
 > >These are the missed details that slow down the progress by
others. After
 > >all, it has been 4 months since your original post and no one yet
has
 > >successfully duplicated your results.
 > >
 > >It could be similar to Toner Transfer, where apparently minor
variations
 > >have a major impact.
 > >
 > >Again, I apologize if it appears that I am disparaging you
efforts, but I am
 > >trying to get a grasp on all the details to be able to repeat
them.
 > >
 > >Myc
 > >
 > >On 7/24/06, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
 > >
 > >
 > >> I didn't understand you reliability question, if possible
please
 > >>explain a little bit more, what are your reliability criteria?
Do you mean
 > >>successful repeatability or reliable as TT :)? Please don't ask
me to have
 > >>99% success rate.
 > >>
 > >>I could be able print on pcb without any failure, it may be
because of the
 > >>printer that I am using. The main thing is, board needs to be
clean, free of
 > >>finger print, dust, and grease like required in TT process and
you need to
 > >>use as many colors as possible to decrease the effects of
clogged nozzle. I
 > >>am always using 3 colors. I didn't do 100 pcbs with this
technique but I can
 > >>say that, at least for me, success rate is much higher than TT.
If someone
 > >>plans to do double layer PCB with CNC drill or applying solder
resist then
 > >>there is no chance to do it with TT, either he needs to use
photo-resist
 > >>/dry-film or direct inkjet.
 > >>The curing process is the key for direct printing, you need to
cure it
 > >>until seeing some smoke on pcb, ink color becomes much darker
and copper
 > >>will be oxidized. I think after a few trials you will understand
what I
 > >>mean.
 > >>Good luck,
 > >>Volkan
 > >>
 > >>....successfully and reliably repeated. We have only heard from
Voltan
 > >>that it is do-able, but nothing about the
 > >>
 > >>reliability. From Stefan's posts, his trials show a
repeatability problem.
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>
 > >
 > >
 > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files,
and Photos:
 > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
 > >
 > >If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
 > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
 > >Yahoo! Groups Links
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > ** ACCEPT: CRM114 PASS Markovian Matcher **
 > >CLASSIFY succeeds; success probability: 1.0000 pR: 43.8618
 > >Best match to file #0 (nonspam.css) prob: 1.0000 pR: 43.8618
 > >Total features in input file: 6086
 > >#0 (nonspam.css): features: 1603168, hits: 161233, prob:
1.00e+00, pR: 43.86
 > >#1 (spam.css): features: 797120, hits: 122054, prob: 1.37e-44,
pR: -43.86
 > >
 > >-=-Extra Stuff-=-
 > >
 > > From sentto-4505361-15314-1153763115-yahoo=dcureton.com@... Tue
Jul 25 03:45:23 2006
 > >Return-path: <sentto-4505361-15314-1153763115-
yahoo=dcureton.com@...>
 > >Envelope-to: yahoo@...
 > >Delivery-date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 03:45:23 +1000
 > >Received: from n24c.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.215])
 > >	by whitetail with smtp (Exim 4.62)
 > >	(envelope-from <sentto-4505361-15314-1153763115-
yahoo=dcureton.com@...>)
 > >	id 1G54Ud-0007hS-7T
 > >	for yahoo@...; Tue, 25 Jul 2006 03:45:23 +1000
 > >Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys
 > >DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima;
d=yahoogroups.com;
 > >
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 > >X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 4505361-m15314
 > >X-Sender: mycroft2152y@...
 > >X-Apparently-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
 > >Received: (qmail 69678 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2006
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 > >Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id k27so1035398nfc
 > > for <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>; Mon, 24 Jul 2006
10:44:19 -0700 (PDT)
 > >Received: by 10.78.170.17 with SMTP id s17mr1721353hue;
 > > Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:44:19 -0700 (PDT)
 > >Received: by 10.78.193.14 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:44:19 -
0700 (PDT)
 > >Message-ID: <bd2a1fcc0607241044j5848744ci65256c80440472e2@...>
 > >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
 > >In-Reply-To: <20060724171238.85729.qmail@...>
 > >References: <bd2a1fcc0607240722l3211afd6gf0923c99c64ace07@...>
 > >	<20060724171238.85729.qmail@...>
 > >> >X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0
 > > From: "Myc Holmes" <mycroft2152y@...>
 > >X-Yahoo-Profile: mycroft2152
 > >Sender: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
 > >MIME-Version: 1.0
 > >Mailing-List: list Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com; contact
Homebrew_PCBs-owner@yahoogroups.com
 > >Delivered-To: mailing list Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
 > >List-Id: <Homebrew_PCBs.yahoogroups.com>
 > >Precedence: bulk
 > >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
 > >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:44:19 -0400
 > >Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report #1
 > >Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
 > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
 > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
 > >
 > >Hi Voltan,
 > >
 > >First of all, I congratulate you on a great idea and the work
cleverness
 > >that have made it work for you.. I agree, a 99% reliability rate
is not
 > >needed, just somewhat equal to Toner Transfer.
 > >
 > >As part of my research chemist background, I find it is important
to
 > >identify and document all the details for repeatable results.
The key is in
 > >the details.
 > >
 > >I've been following your work and am trying to repeat it. It is
frustrating
 > >when it fails and appears that the process has been duplicated.
Until just
 > >recently, the use of Brake Fluid to reduce surface tension and
now the fact
 > >3 sets of nozzles / cartridges are being used to correct coverage
problems
 > >has been published. It is very normal that some details the you
just take
 > >for granted are especially important and need to be mentioned.
 > >
 > >These are the missed details that slow down the progress by
others. After
 > >all, it has been 4 months since your original post and no one yet
has
 > >successfully duplicated your results.
 > >
 > >It could be similar to Toner Transfer, where apparently minor
variations
 > >have a major impact.
 > >
 > >Again, I apologize if it appears that I am disparaging you
efforts, but I am
 > >trying to get a grasp on all the detai
 > >
 > >
 > > -0-0-0-
 > >
 > >
 >




Gus S Calabrese
Denver, CO
720 222 1309     303 908 7716 cell
Please include and do not limit yourself to "spam2006". I allow  
everything with  "spam2006"  in the subject or text to pass my spam  
filters.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mycroft,

I am not certain of the INK, my only exposure with it is when I have 
problems with that printer and usually it's a messy problem!!!!!!

That printer has a problem that i have yet to figure out. When 
printing some drawings, it seems as though it is pissing out ink 
like a race horse.  I end up with drops of black ink everywhere.  
The ink-well where I think the head goes for cleaning is now so full 
it is leaking onto the floor - just noticed that this morning.

HP says it has a leaking hose - hogwash I say.  I think something 
else is wrong based on my observations.  HP also wants $170.00 for 
the stupid hoses so that I can replace them to "See if that corrects 
the problem".

Anyway, what I am getting to is this.  Usually the mess I find is 
large drops of ink.  Just guessing, I would say it is thicker than 
Epson ink - just a hunch though.  Furthermore, the spilled ink never 
seems to dry - it's just a big ole mess.

If the printer acts up on a day when I am in a really bad mood (like 
what has been happening lately alot), I may end up running a PCB 
through that damn thing just to see if it will work for our process.

I really don't know much more about that printer. It's big, it's 
expensive, it makes big messes, it annoys the heck out of me, but I 
need it for business.

The next time it "Leaks ink from the hose", I will try to scoop some 
up and put it on a PCB to test.  However, how would I cure the ink?  
What would I use for a UV light source for something like that?

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Myc Holmes" 
<mycroft2152y@...> wrote:
>
> I would think a UV cure system would be they way to go. You could 
even
> 'cure' the board outside the printer. Unless your are very 
careful, light
> 'spillage" in the printer will cure the ink on the head or glue 
the head to
> excess ink pad.
> 
> The high solids UV cure systems are used to reduce VOC (Volatile 
Organic
> compounds) emissions in industry to meet air quality standards. 
These still
> do have minor amounts of solvents and tend to be very viscous 
(thick).
> 
> Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how does it 
compare
> to the MIS  or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow 
characteristics)? Is the
> inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle does it use?
> 
> So what is needed? Starting with an Epson piezo print head, you 
need a
> fluid  that has the same flow and drying characteristics as the 
pigment ink.
> That means, water based, small particle size, and 'slow' drying. 
Also it has
> to have the proper wetting out characteristics and adhesion to the 
prepared
> copper pcb, both before and after the cure step. Of course it has 
to be
> applied in a layer thick enough and durable to survive the etching 
bath.
> 
> Finally, it has to be KISS simple, inexpensive and easily 
available.
> 
> I've been thinking about this for quite a while, and the only 
possibility
> that I have been able to come up with, short of specially 
compounding, is
> the spray-on photo sensitizing liquid for pcbs. It has the proper 
after
> printer characteristics. the question is what needs to be done to 
get it
> through the EPSON print head successfully.
> 
> Up until just recently, I have not had an Epson printer to 
experiment with,
> only the Lexmarks's that use the vaporized droplet method. Since 
there are 6
> separate heads on the R220, I think a few could be sacrificed to 
try this.
> 
> Myc
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/25/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
> >
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@... <lcdpublishing%
40yahoo.com>
> > >
> > To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%
40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:12 PM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report #1
> >
> > >I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using a UV
> > > cured Ink. My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured ink but
> > > being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the 
courage to
> > > try and run a PCB through it.
> > >
> > > With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print head 
puts
> > > the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV light
> > > source that cures it instantly.
> > >
> > > Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through it, 
but
> > > that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.
> >
> > That's how industrial ink jet printers work, for printing on all 
sorts of

> > materials, including PCBs.
> >
> > Leon
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

USB is a "Funny" animal.  However, when it works, it does seem to 
work good on my computer.  I have learned that it is sensitive to 
the power supply on the other device - not sure what that is all 
about yet.

What got me wanting another USB hub is that I am thinking about 
making my machine all USB as opposed to normal Serial (Rs232).  With 
USB, I could run 1 USB cable to the hub, then, from the hub I could 
add as many USB-Serial converters as I wanted.  The little testing I 
did last weekend worked pretty good so far.

Chris


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:07:11 +0200, lcdpublishing  
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> 
> > Based on all the "Super shopper" comments I got about my USB 
cable,
> > perhaps someone knows where I can buy some USB Hubs at good 
prices?
> > I recall them being fairly cheap a few years ago and they seem 
to be
> > going UP in price rather than DOWN.
> 
> 
> I agree!
> I was surprised when i needed one!
> 
> Ebay ought to have one for 1eur, but there's the shipping...
> 
> My PC is a bit funny with the USB. First it wouldn't want to know 
the  
> digital camera, so i bought a separate card reader. that worked 
until i  
> installed xp again after a hd failure, then the reader wouldn't 
work but  
> the camera would. By then i liked the reader better so in the end 
i got  
> another reader. Same with keyboards. It doesn't like it at all if 
i use  
> phone cable for USB, especially if over a few meters. Works for a 
while,  

> then doesn't. Crap really that USB...
> 
> ST
>

I think almost any UV source would work, probably not LEDs. Exposure time
will be dependant on the source and the thickness of the ink. Put it out on
a sunny day. :)

What is the model # and how much are the cartridges. What do you use to
clean up the mes? Just curious.

If you really get annoyed one day, I can send you some paper thin pcb
material. It feeds through an regular inkjet and laser printer just fine.

Myc

On 7/25/06, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
>   Mycroft,
>
> I am not certain of the INK, my only exposure with it is when I have
> problems with that printer and usually it's a messy problem!!!!!!
>
> That printer has a problem that i have yet to figure out. When
> printing some drawings, it seems as though it is pissing out ink
> like a race horse. I end up with drops of black ink everywhere.
> The ink-well where I think the head goes for cleaning is now so full
> it is leaking onto the floor - just noticed that this morning.
>
> HP says it has a leaking hose - hogwash I say. I think something
> else is wrong based on my observations. HP also wants $170.00 for
> the stupid hoses so that I can replace them to "See if that corrects
> the problem".
>
> Anyway, what I am getting to is this. Usually the mess I find is
> large drops of ink. Just guessing, I would say it is thicker than
> Epson ink - just a hunch though. Furthermore, the spilled ink never
> seems to dry - it's just a big ole mess.
>
> If the printer acts up on a day when I am in a really bad mood (like
> what has been happening lately alot), I may end up running a PCB
> through that damn thing just to see if it will work for our process.
>
> I really don't know much more about that printer. It's big, it's
> expensive, it makes big messes, it annoys the heck out of me, but I
> need it for business.
>
> The next time it "Leaks ink from the hose", I will try to scoop some
> up and put it on a PCB to test. However, how would I cure the ink?
> What would I use for a UV light source for something like that?
>
> Chris
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Myc Holmes"
>
> <mycroft2152y@...> wrote:
> >
> > I would think a UV cure system would be they way to go. You could
> even
> > 'cure' the board outside the printer. Unless your are very
> careful, light
> > 'spillage" in the printer will cure the ink on the head or glue
> the head to
> > excess ink pad.
> >
> > The high solids UV cure systems are used to reduce VOC (Volatile
> Organic
> > compounds) emissions in industry to meet air quality standards.
> These still
> > do have minor amounts of solvents and tend to be very viscous
> (thick).
> >
> > Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how does it
> compare
> > to the MIS or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow
> characteristics)? Is the
> > inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle does it use?
> >
> > So what is needed? Starting with an Epson piezo print head, you
> need a
> > fluid that has the same flow and drying characteristics as the
> pigment ink.
> > That means, water based, small particle size, and 'slow' drying.
> Also it has
> > to have the proper wetting out characteristics and adhesion to the
> prepared
> > copper pcb, both before and after the cure step. Of course it has
> to be
> > applied in a layer thick enough and durable to survive the etching
> bath.
> >
> > Finally, it has to be KISS simple, inexpensive and easily
> available.
> >
> > I've been thinking about this for quite a while, and the only
> possibility
> > that I have been able to come up with, short of specially
> compounding, is
> > the spray-on photo sensitizing liquid for pcbs. It has the proper
> after
> > printer characteristics. the question is what needs to be done to
> get it
> > through the EPSON print head successfully.
> >
> > Up until just recently, I have not had an Epson printer to
> experiment with,
> > only the Lexmarks's that use the vaporized droplet method. Since
> there are 6
> > separate heads on the R220, I think a few could be sacrificed to
> try this.
> >
> > Myc
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/25/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@... <lcdpublishing%
> 40yahoo.com>
> > > >
> > > To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> 40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:12 PM
> > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report #1
> > >
> > > >I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using a UV
> > > > cured Ink. My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured ink but
> > > > being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the
> courage to
> > > > try and run a PCB through it.
> > > >
> > > > With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print head
> puts
> > > > the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV light
> > > > source that cures it instantly.
> > > >
> > > > Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through it,
> but
> > > > that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.
> > >
> > > That's how industrial ink jet printers work, for printing on all
> sorts of
> > > materials, including PCBs.
> > >
> > > Leon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This printer is the DesignJet 500.  I think the ink tanks are around 
$30.00 or so.  That's the funny part about this printer. It doesn't 
get much use at all. I only print about 30 line drawings on about 5 
times a year. So, most of the ink it's used has leaked out or is 
sitting in that ink well :-(

The ink tanks are big, much bigger than the ones we use on desktop 
printers. So, it it isn't leaking, they last a long time - I can't 
remember the last time I bought some.

Seeing as this printer is 24" wide, and I don't know the minimum 
size it can print on (I am always printing from a 24" roll), I don't 
know if I can feed a small sheet through it.  How big of a sheet of 
that PCB material do you have?

Chris




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Myc Holmes" 
<mycroft2152y@...> wrote:
>
> I think almost any UV source would work, probably not LEDs. 
Exposure time
> will be dependant on the source and the thickness of the ink. Put 
it out on
> a sunny day. :)
> 
> What is the model # and how much are the cartridges. What do you 
use to
> clean up the mes? Just curious.
> 
> If you really get annoyed one day, I can send you some paper thin 
pcb
> material. It feeds through an regular inkjet and laser printer 
just fine.
> 
> Myc
> 
> On 7/25/06, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> >
> >   Mycroft,
> >
> > I am not certain of the INK, my only exposure with it is when I 
have
> > problems with that printer and usually it's a messy problem!!!!!!
> >
> > That printer has a problem that i have yet to figure out. When
> > printing some drawings, it seems as though it is pissing out ink
> > like a race horse. I end up with drops of black ink everywhere.
> > The ink-well where I think the head goes for cleaning is now so 
full
> > it is leaking onto the floor - just noticed that this morning.
> >
> > HP says it has a leaking hose - hogwash I say. I think something
> > else is wrong based on my observations. HP also wants $170.00 for
> > the stupid hoses so that I can replace them to "See if that 
corrects
> > the problem".
> >
> > Anyway, what I am getting to is this. Usually the mess I find is
> > large drops of ink. Just guessing, I would say it is thicker than
> > Epson ink - just a hunch though. Furthermore, the spilled ink 
never
> > seems to dry - it's just a big ole mess.
> >
> > If the printer acts up on a day when I am in a really bad mood 
(like
> > what has been happening lately alot), I may end up running a PCB
> > through that damn thing just to see if it will work for our 
process.
> >
> > I really don't know much more about that printer. It's big, it's
> > expensive, it makes big messes, it annoys the heck out of me, 
but I
> > need it for business.
> >
> > The next time it "Leaks ink from the hose", I will try to scoop 
some
> > up and put it on a PCB to test. However, how would I cure the 
ink?
> > What would I use for a UV light source for something like that?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%
40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Myc Holmes"
> >
> > <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would think a UV cure system would be they way to go. You 
could
> > even
> > > 'cure' the board outside the printer. Unless your are very
> > careful, light
> > > 'spillage" in the printer will cure the ink on the head or glue
> > the head to
> > > excess ink pad.
> > >
> > > The high solids UV cure systems are used to reduce VOC 
(Volatile
> > Organic
> > > compounds) emissions in industry to meet air quality standards.
> > These still
> > > do have minor amounts of solvents and tend to be very viscous
> > (thick).
> > >
> > > Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how 
does it
> > compare
> > > to the MIS or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow
> > characteristics)? Is the
> > > inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle does it use?
> > >
> > > So what is needed? Starting with an Epson piezo print head, you
> > need a
> > > fluid that has the same flow and drying characteristics as the
> > pigment ink.
> > > That means, water based, small particle size, and 'slow' 
drying.
> > Also it has
> > > to have the proper wetting out characteristics and adhesion to 
the
> > prepared
> > > copper pcb, both before and after the cure step. Of course it 
has
> > to be
> > > applied in a layer thick enough and durable to survive the 
etching
> > bath.
> > >
> > > Finally, it has to be KISS simple, inexpensive and easily
> > available.
> > >
> > > I've been thinking about this for quite a while, and the only
> > possibility
> > > that I have been able to come up with, short of specially
> > compounding, is
> > > the spray-on photo sensitizing liquid for pcbs. It has the 
proper
> > after
> > > printer characteristics. the question is what needs to be done 
to
> > get it
> > > through the EPSON print head successfully.
> > >
> > > Up until just recently, I have not had an Epson printer to
> > experiment with,
> > > only the Lexmarks's that use the vaporized droplet method. 
Since
> > there are 6
> > > separate heads on the R220, I think a few could be sacrificed 
to
> > try this.
> > >
> > > Myc
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7/25/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@ <lcdpublishing%
> > 40yahoo.com>
> > > > >
> > > > To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%
40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:12 PM
> > > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report 
#1
> > > >
> > > > >I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using 
a UV
> > > > > cured Ink. My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured 
ink but
> > > > > being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the
> > courage to
> > > > > try and run a PCB through it.
> > > > >
> > > > > With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print 
head
> > puts
> > > > > the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV 
light
> > > > > source that cures it instantly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through 
it,
> > but
> > > > > that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.
> > > >
> > > > That's how industrial ink jet printers work, for printing on 
all

> > sorts of
> > > > materials, including PCBs.
> > > >
> > > > Leon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how does it compare
> to the MIS  or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow characteristics)? Is the
> inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle does it use?
>
I haven't actually seen the Epson or MIS inks to directly compare them. As far 
as I can tell, the HP inks are not heated, and the ink is only slightly 
thicker than water.

Christopher Hart
KC8UFV

I just ran a fresh test print through my HP Deskjet 340, with only Black #33, 
and the ink works if the board is perfectly clean. Where my fingerprints were 
on the board, the ink did not stick consistently. The Tarn-X did not work 
well, as it seemed to increase the fingerprints. Cleaning with a Schotchbrite 
pad gets the ink to stick more consistently, and with only about a minute of 
air drying, the ink was much harder to remove than the Tarn-X. I suspect this 
is due to the scrubber adding a little texture to the surface, allowing the 
ink to grab better. The ink would not simply rinse off, as it did with the 
Tarn-X. 

Scrubbed again with Scotchbrite, and applied a thin coat of DOT3 brake fluid, 
and all I get is puddling, and after 1 minute of air drying, absolutely no 
adhesion to the copper. (All ink rinsed right off). I am better off with a 
board that has been sitting around with nothing done to it. 

I did a fresh scrub with Scotchbrite on the same board, and my fine line test 
pattern seems to be holding. I am going to let this board dry overnight 
tonight, and If it stays good, I will test etch tonight. 

Here is my test pattern: http://i7.tinypic.com/20zsjeu.png

I don't know why all those white dots appeared when I uploaded it. On my last 
test print, I didn't scrub the top very well, so there are some problems in 
those areas. I will post final pictures after it has been etched.

On Tuesday 25 July 2006 12:22, Christopher Hart wrote:
> > Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how does it
> > compare to the MIS  or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow
> > characteristics)? Is the inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle
> > does it use?
>
> I haven't actually seen the Epson or MIS inks to directly compare them. As
> far as I can tell, the HP inks are not heated, and the ink is only slightly
> thicker than water.
>
> Christopher Hart
> KC8UFV

Hey Chris,
Regarding the brake fluid, I seem to recall Volkan saying that he 
made sure he wiped it ALL off so that it was dry again.  You may 
want to back up a few posts to verify that technique.

Either way, here is something else you can try for better adhesion.  
Clean the PCB using acetone.  Then, etch the board for a few 
seconds, this should break up the surface a bit and allow for better 
adhesion.  The only reason I suspect this is because I had some PCB 
material that simply would not accept toner transfer unless I did 
that.  I tried all the scrubing, sanding, polishing, washing, etc., 
the only way I got toner to stick was with a quick pre-etch.  Might 
work for ink too, you never know.

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Hart 
<tech_guru@...> wrote:
>
> I just ran a fresh test print through my HP Deskjet 340, with only 
Black #33, 
> and the ink works if the board is perfectly clean. Where my 
fingerprints were 
> on the board, the ink did not stick consistently. The Tarn-X did 
not work 
> well, as it seemed to increase the fingerprints. Cleaning with a 
Schotchbrite 
> pad gets the ink to stick more consistently, and with only about a 
minute of 
> air drying, the ink was much harder to remove than the Tarn-X. I 
suspect this 
> is due to the scrubber adding a little texture to the surface, 
allowing the 
> ink to grab better. The ink would not simply rinse off, as it did 
with the 
> Tarn-X. 
> 
> Scrubbed again with Scotchbrite, and applied a thin coat of DOT3 
brake fluid, 
> and all I get is puddling, and after 1 minute of air drying, 
absolutely no 
> adhesion to the copper. (All ink rinsed right off). I am better 
off with a 
> board that has been sitting around with nothing done to it. 
> 
> I did a fresh scrub with Scotchbrite on the same board, and my 
fine line test 
> pattern seems to be holding. I am going to let this board dry 
overnight 
> tonight, and If it stays good, I will test etch tonight. 
> 
> Here is my test pattern: http://i7.tinypic.com/20zsjeu.png
> 
> I don't know why all those white dots appeared when I uploaded it. 
On my last 
> test print, I didn't scrub the top very well, so there are some 
problems in 
> those areas. I will post final pictures after it has been etched.
> 
> 
> On Tuesday 25 July 2006 12:22, Christopher Hart wrote:
> > > Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how 
does it
> > > compare to the MIS  or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow
> > > characteristics)? Is the inkjet head heated? What kind of 
cleaning cycle
> > > does it use?
> >
> > I haven't actually seen the Epson or MIS inks to directly 
compare them. As
> > far as I can tell, the HP inks are not heated, and the ink is 
only slightly

> > thicker than water.
> >
> > Christopher Hart
> > KC8UFV
>

I have a design jet 5000 here - the 42" 6
colour (CcYMmK) version.  I can print on
small single sheets of paper - however
loading them is a pain - so I always just
leave the A0 (36") rolls installed.

With ours at least I don't think the inks
are UV cured.  They smell like they have a
solvent in them rather than just water
based though.  We did not get any special
options with it for printing on anything
but paper/vinyl - so the UV curing must be
special.

The carts for this one are a box about 1-2
liters in volume.  Don't think they are
all ink inside though as they dont weight
2 kilograms.  The light Cyan cart is 95%
empty so I will investigate further when
I swap it in the next few weeks.








--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> This printer is the DesignJet 500.  I think the ink tanks are around 
> $30.00 or so.  That's the funny part about this printer. It doesn't 
> get much use at all. I only print about 30 line drawings on about 5 
> times a year. So, most of the ink it's used has leaked out or is 
> sitting in that ink well :-(
> 
> The ink tanks are big, much bigger than the ones we use on desktop 
> printers. So, it it isn't leaking, they last a long time - I can't 
> remember the last time I bought some.
> 
> Seeing as this printer is 24" wide, and I don't know the minimum 
> size it can print on (I am always printing from a 24" roll), I don't 
> know if I can feed a small sheet through it.  How big of a sheet of 
> that PCB material do you have?
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Myc Holmes" 
> <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> >
> > I think almost any UV source would work, probably not LEDs. 
> Exposure time
> > will be dependant on the source and the thickness of the ink. Put 
> it out on
> > a sunny day. :)
> > 
> > What is the model # and how much are the cartridges. What do you 
> use to
> > clean up the mes? Just curious.
> > 
> > If you really get annoyed one day, I can send you some paper thin 
> pcb
> > material. It feeds through an regular inkjet and laser printer 
> just fine.
> > 
> > Myc
> > 
> > On 7/25/06, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > >
> > >   Mycroft,
> > >
> > > I am not certain of the INK, my only exposure with it is when I 
> have
> > > problems with that printer and usually it's a messy problem!!!!!!
> > >
> > > That printer has a problem that i have yet to figure out. When
> > > printing some drawings, it seems as though it is pissing out ink
> > > like a race horse. I end up with drops of black ink everywhere.
> > > The ink-well where I think the head goes for cleaning is now so 
> full
> > > it is leaking onto the floor - just noticed that this morning.
> > >
> > > HP says it has a leaking hose - hogwash I say. I think something
> > > else is wrong based on my observations. HP also wants $170.00 for
> > > the stupid hoses so that I can replace them to "See if that 
> corrects
> > > the problem".
> > >
> > > Anyway, what I am getting to is this. Usually the mess I find is
> > > large drops of ink. Just guessing, I would say it is thicker than
> > > Epson ink - just a hunch though. Furthermore, the spilled ink 
> never
> > > seems to dry - it's just a big ole mess.
> > >
> > > If the printer acts up on a day when I am in a really bad mood 
> (like
> > > what has been happening lately alot), I may end up running a PCB
> > > through that damn thing just to see if it will work for our 
> process.
> > >
> > > I really don't know much more about that printer. It's big, it's
> > > expensive, it makes big messes, it annoys the heck out of me, 
> but I
> > > need it for business.
> > >
> > > The next time it "Leaks ink from the hose", I will try to scoop 
> some
> > > up and put it on a PCB to test. However, how would I cure the 
> ink?
> > > What would I use for a UV light source for something like that?
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "Myc Holmes"
> > >
> > > <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would think a UV cure system would be they way to go. You 
> could
> > > even
> > > > 'cure' the board outside the printer. Unless your are very
> > > careful, light
> > > > 'spillage" in the printer will cure the ink on the head or glue
> > > the head to
> > > > excess ink pad.
> > > >
> > > > The high solids UV cure systems are used to reduce VOC 
> (Volatile
> > > Organic
> > > > compounds) emissions in industry to meet air quality standards.
> > > These still
> > > > do have minor amounts of solvents and tend to be very viscous
> > > (thick).
> > > >
> > > > Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how 
> does it
> > > compare
> > > > to the MIS or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow
> > > characteristics)? Is the
> > > > inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle does it use?
> > > >
> > > > So what is needed? Starting with an Epson piezo print head, you
> > > need a
> > > > fluid that has the same flow and drying characteristics as the
> > > pigment ink.
> > > > That means, water based, small particle size, and 'slow' 
> drying.
> > > Also it has
> > > > to have the proper wetting out characteristics and adhesion to 
> the
> > > prepared
> > > > copper pcb, both before and after the cure step. Of course it 
> has
> > > to be
> > > > applied in a layer thick enough and durable to survive the 
> etching
> > > bath.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, it has to be KISS simple, inexpensive and easily
> > > available.
> > > >
> > > > I've been thinking about this for quite a while, and the only
> > > possibility
> > > > that I have been able to come up with, short of specially
> > > compounding, is
> > > > the spray-on photo sensitizing liquid for pcbs. It has the 
> proper
> > > after
> > > > printer characteristics. the question is what needs to be done 
> to
> > > get it
> > > > through the EPSON print head successfully.
> > > >
> > > > Up until just recently, I have not had an Epson printer to
> > > experiment with,
> > > > only the Lexmarks's that use the vaporized droplet method. 
> Since
> > > there are 6
> > > > separate heads on the R220, I think a few could be sacrificed 
> to
> > > try this.
> > > >
> > > > Myc
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 7/25/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@ <lcdpublishing%
> > > 40yahoo.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%
> 40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > > 40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:12 PM
> > > > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report 
> #1
> > > > >
> > > > > >I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using 
> a UV
> > > > > > cured Ink. My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured 
> ink but
> > > > > > being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the
> > > courage to
> > > > > > try and run a PCB through it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print 
> head
> > > puts
> > > > > > the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV 
> light
> > > > > > source that cures it instantly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through 
> it,
> > > but
> > > > > > that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's how industrial ink jet printers work, for printing on 
> all
> > > sorts of
> > > > > materials, including PCBs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Leon
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Ah - yes - store cost - thats a different
kettle of USB cables.

Your correct there

store cost OFTEN = 

(
Actual cost +
Rent +
Wages +
Advertising +
Electricity
)
* nominal GP mark up (usualy about 50%)




> Myc wrote:
>
> The $3  was based on the what one of my family members who worked at a
> national retail computer chain could buy the cable for "at cost".
I'm sure
> the store's "cost" included advertising, shipping, overhead,etc.
> 
> The USB spec calls for a cable of a maximum length of about 2
meters, so any
> longer kluged telephone cables will have probelms.
> 
> Myc
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/25/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:07:11 +0200, lcdpublishing
> > <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Based on all the "Super shopper" comments I got about my USB cable,
> > > perhaps someone knows where I can buy some USB Hubs at good prices?
> > > I recall them being fairly cheap a few years ago and they seem to be
> > > going UP in price rather than DOWN.
> >
> >
> > I agree!
> > I was surprised when i needed one!
> >
> > Ebay ought to have one for 1eur, but there's the shipping...
> >
> > My PC is a bit funny with the USB. First it wouldn't want to know the
> > digital camera, so i bought a separate card reader. that worked
until i
> > installed xp again after a hd failure, then the reader wouldn't
work but
> > the camera would. By then i liked the reader better so in the end
i got
> > another reader. Same with keyboards. It doesn't like it at all if
i use
> > phone cable for USB, especially if over a few meters. Works for a
while,

> > then doesn't. Crap really that USB...
> >
> > ST
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> > Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> > If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Yep - they seem to have gone up.

I used to be able to buy USB hubs for
sub $10 AUD.

These days my buy price on them is
over $20 AUD.

HOWEVER

The local coles store (australian
national supermarket/grocery chain)
has them for sub $20 AUD.

Crazy Clarks (Australian five and
dime discount store) has them for
$12 AUD

So check places you might not
expect to find them.

> lcdpublishing wrote:
>
> Based on all the "Super shopper" comments I got about my USB cable, 
> perhaps someone knows where I can buy some USB Hubs at good prices?
> 
> I recall them being fairly cheap a few years ago and they seem to be 
> going UP in price rather than DOWN.
> 
>

Hi Chris,

The flex pcb stock is 6" x 9", contact me off list with your address if you
would like some.

I have fed it directly through the R220 and laser printer as well as taping
it to a regular page carrier sheet.

Myc

On 7/25/06, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>
>   I have a design jet 5000 here - the 42" 6
> colour (CcYMmK) version. I can print on
> small single sheets of paper - however
> loading them is a pain - so I always just
> leave the A0 (36") rolls installed.
>
> With ours at least I don't think the inks
> are UV cured. They smell like they have a
> solvent in them rather than just water
> based though. We did not get any special
> options with it for printing on anything
> but paper/vinyl - so the UV curing must be
> special.
>
> The carts for this one are a box about 1-2
> liters in volume. Don't think they are
> all ink inside though as they dont weight
> 2 kilograms. The light Cyan cart is 95%
> empty so I will investigate further when
> I swap it in the next few weeks.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "lcdpublishing"
>
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> >
> > This printer is the DesignJet 500. I think the ink tanks are around
> > $30.00 or so. That's the funny part about this printer. It doesn't
> > get much use at all. I only print about 30 line drawings on about 5
> > times a year. So, most of the ink it's used has leaked out or is
> > sitting in that ink well :-(
> >
> > The ink tanks are big, much bigger than the ones we use on desktop
> > printers. So, it it isn't leaking, they last a long time - I can't
> > remember the last time I bought some.
> >
> > Seeing as this printer is 24" wide, and I don't know the minimum
> > size it can print on (I am always printing from a 24" roll), I don't
> > know if I can feed a small sheet through it. How big of a sheet of
> > that PCB material do you have?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Myc Holmes"
> > <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think almost any UV source would work, probably not LEDs.
> > Exposure time
> > > will be dependant on the source and the thickness of the ink. Put
> > it out on
> > > a sunny day. :)
> > >
> > > What is the model # and how much are the cartridges. What do you
> > use to
> > > clean up the mes? Just curious.
> > >
> > > If you really get annoyed one day, I can send you some paper thin
> > pcb
> > > material. It feeds through an regular inkjet and laser printer
> > just fine.
> > >
> > > Myc
> > >
> > > On 7/25/06, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mycroft,
> > > >
> > > > I am not certain of the INK, my only exposure with it is when I
> > have
> > > > problems with that printer and usually it's a messy problem!!!!!!
> > > >
> > > > That printer has a problem that i have yet to figure out. When
> > > > printing some drawings, it seems as though it is pissing out ink
> > > > like a race horse. I end up with drops of black ink everywhere.
> > > > The ink-well where I think the head goes for cleaning is now so
> > full
> > > > it is leaking onto the floor - just noticed that this morning.
> > > >
> > > > HP says it has a leaking hose - hogwash I say. I think something
> > > > else is wrong based on my observations. HP also wants $170.00 for
> > > > the stupid hoses so that I can replace them to "See if that
> > corrects
> > > > the problem".
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, what I am getting to is this. Usually the mess I find is
> > > > large drops of ink. Just guessing, I would say it is thicker than
> > > > Epson ink - just a hunch though. Furthermore, the spilled ink
> > never
> > > > seems to dry - it's just a big ole mess.
> > > >
> > > > If the printer acts up on a day when I am in a really bad mood
> > (like
> > > > what has been happening lately alot), I may end up running a PCB
> > > > through that damn thing just to see if it will work for our
> > process.
> > > >
> > > > I really don't know much more about that printer. It's big, it's
> > > > expensive, it makes big messes, it annoys the heck out of me,
> > but I
> > > > need it for business.
> > > >
> > > > The next time it "Leaks ink from the hose", I will try to scoop
> > some
> > > > up and put it on a PCB to test. However, how would I cure the
> > ink?
> > > > What would I use for a UV light source for something like that?
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com<Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > "Myc Holmes"
> > > >
> > > > <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I would think a UV cure system would be they way to go. You
> > could
> > > > even
> > > > > 'cure' the board outside the printer. Unless your are very
> > > > careful, light
> > > > > 'spillage" in the printer will cure the ink on the head or glue
> > > > the head to
> > > > > excess ink pad.
> > > > >
> > > > > The high solids UV cure systems are used to reduce VOC
> > (Volatile
> > > > Organic
> > > > > compounds) emissions in industry to meet air quality standards.
> > > > These still
> > > > > do have minor amounts of solvents and tend to be very viscous
> > > > (thick).
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how
> > does it
> > > > compare
> > > > > to the MIS or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow
> > > > characteristics)? Is the
> > > > > inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle does it use?
> > > > >
> > > > > So what is needed? Starting with an Epson piezo print head, you
> > > > need a
> > > > > fluid that has the same flow and drying characteristics as the
> > > > pigment ink.
> > > > > That means, water based, small particle size, and 'slow'
> > drying.
> > > > Also it has
> > > > > to have the proper wetting out characteristics and adhesion to
> > the
> > > > prepared
> > > > > copper pcb, both before and after the cure step. Of course it
> > has
> > > > to be
> > > > > applied in a layer thick enough and durable to survive the
> > etching
> > > > bath.
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, it has to be KISS simple, inexpensive and easily
> > > > available.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been thinking about this for quite a while, and the only
> > > > possibility
> > > > > that I have been able to come up with, short of specially
> > > > compounding, is
> > > > > the spray-on photo sensitizing liquid for pcbs. It has the
> > proper
> > > > after
> > > > > printer characteristics. the question is what needs to be done
> > to
> > > > get it
> > > > > through the EPSON print head successfully.
> > > > >
> > > > > Up until just recently, I have not had an Epson printer to
> > > > experiment with,
> > > > > only the Lexmarks's that use the vaporized droplet method.
> > Since
> > > > there are 6
> > > > > separate heads on the R220, I think a few could be sacrificed
> > to
> > > > try this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Myc
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7/25/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@ <lcdpublishing%
> > > > 40yahoo.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com<Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > 40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:12 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report
> > #1
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using
> > a UV
> > > > > > > cured Ink. My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured
> > ink but
> > > > > > > being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the
> > > > courage to
> > > > > > > try and run a PCB through it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print
> > head
> > > > puts
> > > > > > > the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV
> > light
> > > > > > > source that cures it instantly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through
> > it,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's how industrial ink jet printers work, for printing on
> > all
> > > > sorts of
> > > > > > materials, including PCBs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Leon
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Check your email :-)

Chris


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Myc Holmes" 
<mycroft2152y@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
> 
> The flex pcb stock is 6" x 9", contact me off list with your 
address if you
> would like some.
> 
> I have fed it directly through the R220 and laser printer as well 
as taping
> it to a regular page carrier sheet.
> 
> Myc
> 
> On 7/25/06, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
> >
> >   I have a design jet 5000 here - the 42" 6
> > colour (CcYMmK) version. I can print on
> > small single sheets of paper - however
> > loading them is a pain - so I always just
> > leave the A0 (36") rolls installed.
> >
> > With ours at least I don't think the inks
> > are UV cured. They smell like they have a
> > solvent in them rather than just water
> > based though. We did not get any special
> > options with it for printing on anything
> > but paper/vinyl - so the UV curing must be
> > special.
> >
> > The carts for this one are a box about 1-2
> > liters in volume. Don't think they are
> > all ink inside though as they dont weight
> > 2 kilograms. The light Cyan cart is 95%
> > empty so I will investigate further when
> > I swap it in the next few weeks.
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%
40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "lcdpublishing"
> >
> > <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > >
> > > This printer is the DesignJet 500. I think the ink tanks are 
around
> > > $30.00 or so. That's the funny part about this printer. It 
doesn't
> > > get much use at all. I only print about 30 line drawings on 
about 5
> > > times a year. So, most of the ink it's used has leaked out or 
is
> > > sitting in that ink well :-(
> > >
> > > The ink tanks are big, much bigger than the ones we use on 
desktop
> > > printers. So, it it isn't leaking, they last a long time - I 
can't
> > > remember the last time I bought some.
> > >
> > > Seeing as this printer is 24" wide, and I don't know the 
minimum
> > > size it can print on (I am always printing from a 24" roll), I 
don't
> > > know if I can feed a small sheet through it. How big of a 
sheet of
> > > that PCB material do you have?
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%
40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Myc Holmes"
> > > <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think almost any UV source would work, probably not LEDs.
> > > Exposure time
> > > > will be dependant on the source and the thickness of the 
ink. Put
> > > it out on
> > > > a sunny day. :)
> > > >
> > > > What is the model # and how much are the cartridges. What do 
you
> > > use to
> > > > clean up the mes? Just curious.
> > > >
> > > > If you really get annoyed one day, I can send you some paper 
thin
> > > pcb
> > > > material. It feeds through an regular inkjet and laser 
printer
> > > just fine.
> > > >
> > > > Myc
> > > >
> > > > On 7/25/06, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Mycroft,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not certain of the INK, my only exposure with it is 
when I
> > > have
> > > > > problems with that printer and usually it's a messy 
problem!!!!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > That printer has a problem that i have yet to figure out. 
When
> > > > > printing some drawings, it seems as though it is pissing 
out ink
> > > > > like a race horse. I end up with drops of black ink 
everywhere.
> > > > > The ink-well where I think the head goes for cleaning is 
now so
> > > full
> > > > > it is leaking onto the floor - just noticed that this 
morning.
> > > > >
> > > > > HP says it has a leaking hose - hogwash I say. I think 
something
> > > > > else is wrong based on my observations. HP also wants 
$170.00 for
> > > > > the stupid hoses so that I can replace them to "See if that
> > > corrects
> > > > > the problem".
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, what I am getting to is this. Usually the mess I 
find is
> > > > > large drops of ink. Just guessing, I would say it is 
thicker than
> > > > > Epson ink - just a hunch though. Furthermore, the spilled 
ink
> > > never
> > > > > seems to dry - it's just a big ole mess.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the printer acts up on a day when I am in a really bad 
mood
> > > (like
> > > > > what has been happening lately alot), I may end up running 
a PCB
> > > > > through that damn thing just to see if it will work for our
> > > process.
> > > > >
> > > > > I really don't know much more about that printer. It's 
big, it's
> > > > > expensive, it makes big messes, it annoys the heck out of 
me,
> > > but I
> > > > > need it for business.
> > > > >
> > > > > The next time it "Leaks ink from the hose", I will try to 
scoop
> > > some
> > > > > up and put it on a PCB to test. However, how would I cure 
the
> > > ink?
> > > > > What would I use for a UV light source for something like 
that?
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com<Homebrew_PCBs%
40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > "Myc Holmes"
> > > > >
> > > > > <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would think a UV cure system would be they way to go. 
You
> > > could
> > > > > even
> > > > > > 'cure' the board outside the printer. Unless your are 
very
> > > > > careful, light
> > > > > > 'spillage" in the printer will cure the ink on the head 
or glue
> > > > > the head to
> > > > > > excess ink pad.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The high solids UV cure systems are used to reduce VOC
> > > (Volatile
> > > > > Organic
> > > > > > compounds) emissions in industry to meet air quality 
standards.
> > > > > These still
> > > > > > do have minor amounts of solvents and tend to be very 
viscous
> > > > > (thick).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? 
how
> > > does it
> > > > > compare
> > > > > > to the MIS or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow
> > > > > characteristics)? Is the
> > > > > > inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle does it 
use?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So what is needed? Starting with an Epson piezo print 
head, you
> > > > > need a
> > > > > > fluid that has the same flow and drying characteristics 
as the
> > > > > pigment ink.
> > > > > > That means, water based, small particle size, and 'slow'
> > > drying.
> > > > > Also it has
> > > > > > to have the proper wetting out characteristics and 
adhesion to
> > > the
> > > > > prepared
> > > > > > copper pcb, both before and after the cure step. Of 
course it
> > > has
> > > > > to be
> > > > > > applied in a layer thick enough and durable to survive 
the
> > > etching
> > > > > bath.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Finally, it has to be KISS simple, inexpensive and easily
> > > > > available.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've been thinking about this for quite a while, and the 
only
> > > > > possibility
> > > > > > that I have been able to come up with, short of specially
> > > > > compounding, is
> > > > > > the spray-on photo sensitizing liquid for pcbs. It has 
the
> > > proper
> > > > > after
> > > > > > printer characteristics. the question is what needs to 
be done
> > > to
> > > > > get it
> > > > > > through the EPSON print head successfully.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Up until just recently, I have not had an Epson printer 
to
> > > > > experiment with,
> > > > > > only the Lexmarks's that use the vaporized droplet 
method.
> > > Since
> > > > > there are 6
> > > > > > separate heads on the R220, I think a few could be 
sacrificed
> > > to
> > > > > try this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Myc
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 7/25/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@ <lcdpublishing%
> > > > > 40yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com<Homebrew_PCBs%
40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > > 40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:12 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing 
Report
> > > #1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >I would suspect that you would be better off 
finding/using
> > > a UV
> > > > > > > > cured Ink. My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV 
cured
> > > ink but
> > > > > > > > being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet 
had the
> > > > > courage to
> > > > > > > > try and run a PCB through it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > With that system, if I understand it correctly, the 
print
> > > head
> > > > > puts
> > > > > > > > the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is 
a UV
> > > light
> > > > > > > > source that cures it instantly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB 
through
> > > it,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's how industrial ink jet printers work, for 
printing on

> > > all
> > > > > sorts of
> > > > > > > materials, including PCBs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Leon
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I'm curious about this flexible PCB. You say you've run it thru a
laser printer. Were you able to make a circuit? 

Is it possible to buy the stuff in hobbiest quantities?

Thanks much,
Royce


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Myc Holmes" <mycroft2152y@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
> 
> The flex pcb stock is 6" x 9", contact me off list with your address
if you
> would like some.
> 
> I have fed it directly through the R220 and laser printer as well as
taping
> it to a regular page carrier sheet.
> 
> Myc
> 
> On 7/25/06, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
> >
> >   I have a design jet 5000 here - the 42" 6
> > colour (CcYMmK) version. I can print on
> > small single sheets of paper - however
> > loading them is a pain - so I always just
> > leave the A0 (36") rolls installed.
> >
> > With ours at least I don't think the inks
> > are UV cured. They smell like they have a
> > solvent in them rather than just water
> > based though. We did not get any special
> > options with it for printing on anything
> > but paper/vinyl - so the UV curing must be
> > special.
> >
> > The carts for this one are a box about 1-2
> > liters in volume. Don't think they are
> > all ink inside though as they dont weight
> > 2 kilograms. The light Cyan cart is 95%
> > empty so I will investigate further when
> > I swap it in the next few weeks.
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "lcdpublishing"
> >
> > <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > >
> > > This printer is the DesignJet 500. I think the ink tanks are around
> > > $30.00 or so. That's the funny part about this printer. It doesn't
> > > get much use at all. I only print about 30 line drawings on about 5
> > > times a year. So, most of the ink it's used has leaked out or is
> > > sitting in that ink well :-(
> > >
> > > The ink tanks are big, much bigger than the ones we use on desktop
> > > printers. So, it it isn't leaking, they last a long time - I can't
> > > remember the last time I bought some.
> > >
> > > Seeing as this printer is 24" wide, and I don't know the minimum
> > > size it can print on (I am always printing from a 24" roll), I don't
> > > know if I can feed a small sheet through it. How big of a sheet of
> > > that PCB material do you have?
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Myc Holmes"
> > > <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think almost any UV source would work, probably not LEDs.
> > > Exposure time
> > > > will be dependant on the source and the thickness of the ink. Put
> > > it out on
> > > > a sunny day. :)
> > > >
> > > > What is the model # and how much are the cartridges. What do you
> > > use to
> > > > clean up the mes? Just curious.
> > > >
> > > > If you really get annoyed one day, I can send you some paper thin
> > > pcb
> > > > material. It feeds through an regular inkjet and laser printer
> > > just fine.
> > > >
> > > > Myc
> > > >
> > > > On 7/25/06, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Mycroft,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not certain of the INK, my only exposure with it is when I
> > > have
> > > > > problems with that printer and usually it's a messy
problem!!!!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > That printer has a problem that i have yet to figure out. When
> > > > > printing some drawings, it seems as though it is pissing out ink
> > > > > like a race horse. I end up with drops of black ink everywhere.
> > > > > The ink-well where I think the head goes for cleaning is now so
> > > full
> > > > > it is leaking onto the floor - just noticed that this morning.
> > > > >
> > > > > HP says it has a leaking hose - hogwash I say. I think something
> > > > > else is wrong based on my observations. HP also wants
$170.00 for
> > > > > the stupid hoses so that I can replace them to "See if that
> > > corrects
> > > > > the problem".
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, what I am getting to is this. Usually the mess I find is
> > > > > large drops of ink. Just guessing, I would say it is thicker
than
> > > > > Epson ink - just a hunch though. Furthermore, the spilled ink
> > > never
> > > > > seems to dry - it's just a big ole mess.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the printer acts up on a day when I am in a really bad mood
> > > (like
> > > > > what has been happening lately alot), I may end up running a PCB
> > > > > through that damn thing just to see if it will work for our
> > > process.
> > > > >
> > > > > I really don't know much more about that printer. It's big, it's
> > > > > expensive, it makes big messes, it annoys the heck out of me,
> > > but I
> > > > > need it for business.
> > > > >
> > > > > The next time it "Leaks ink from the hose", I will try to scoop
> > > some
> > > > > up and put it on a PCB to test. However, how would I cure the
> > > ink?
> > > > > What would I use for a UV light source for something like that?
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In
Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com<Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > "Myc Holmes"
> > > > >
> > > > > <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would think a UV cure system would be they way to go. You
> > > could
> > > > > even
> > > > > > 'cure' the board outside the printer. Unless your are very
> > > > > careful, light
> > > > > > 'spillage" in the printer will cure the ink on the head or
glue
> > > > > the head to
> > > > > > excess ink pad.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The high solids UV cure systems are used to reduce VOC
> > > (Volatile
> > > > > Organic
> > > > > > compounds) emissions in industry to meet air quality
standards.
> > > > > These still
> > > > > > do have minor amounts of solvents and tend to be very viscous
> > > > > (thick).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how
> > > does it
> > > > > compare
> > > > > > to the MIS or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow
> > > > > characteristics)? Is the
> > > > > > inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle does it use?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So what is needed? Starting with an Epson piezo print
head, you
> > > > > need a
> > > > > > fluid that has the same flow and drying characteristics as the
> > > > > pigment ink.
> > > > > > That means, water based, small particle size, and 'slow'
> > > drying.
> > > > > Also it has
> > > > > > to have the proper wetting out characteristics and adhesion to
> > > the
> > > > > prepared
> > > > > > copper pcb, both before and after the cure step. Of course it
> > > has
> > > > > to be
> > > > > > applied in a layer thick enough and durable to survive the
> > > etching
> > > > > bath.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Finally, it has to be KISS simple, inexpensive and easily
> > > > > available.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've been thinking about this for quite a while, and the only
> > > > > possibility
> > > > > > that I have been able to come up with, short of specially
> > > > > compounding, is
> > > > > > the spray-on photo sensitizing liquid for pcbs. It has the
> > > proper
> > > > > after
> > > > > > printer characteristics. the question is what needs to be done
> > > to
> > > > > get it
> > > > > > through the EPSON print head successfully.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Up until just recently, I have not had an Epson printer to
> > > > > experiment with,
> > > > > > only the Lexmarks's that use the vaporized droplet method.
> > > Since
> > > > > there are 6
> > > > > > separate heads on the R220, I think a few could be sacrificed
> > > to
> > > > > try this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Myc
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 7/25/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@ <lcdpublishing%
> > > > > 40yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To:
<Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com<Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%

> > > 40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:12 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report
> > > #1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using
> > > a UV
> > > > > > > > cured Ink. My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured
> > > ink but
> > > > > > > > being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the
> > > > > courage to
> > > > > > > > try and run a PCB through it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print
> > > head
> > > > > puts
> > > > > > > > the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV
> > > light
> > > > > > > > source that cures it instantly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through
> > > it,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's how industrial ink jet printers work, for printing on
> > > all
> > > > > sorts of
> > > > > > > materials, including PCBs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Leon
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I bought the flex pcb on Ebay a while ago. It was about $20 for 25 sheets, I
think. Check Ebay for any current listings.

I was able to print directly on it using an old HP Laserjet IIIP+, bu not
with the newer Samsung ML-2010.

Myc

shortly there after and not related to the pcb printing, my laserjet died;
so i was not able to continue trials with it. Iy was not worht the cost of
repairing it.

On 7/26/06, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...> wrote:
>
>   I'm curious about this flexible PCB. You say you've run it thru a
> laser printer. Were you able to make a circuit?
>
> Is it possible to buy the stuff in hobbiest quantities?
>
> Thanks much,
> Royce
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Myc Holmes" <mycroft2152y@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > The flex pcb stock is 6" x 9", contact me off list with your address
> if you
> > would like some.
> >
> > I have fed it directly through the R220 and laser printer as well as
> taping
> > it to a regular page carrier sheet.
> >
> > Myc
> >
> > On 7/25/06, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have a design jet 5000 here - the 42" 6
> > > colour (CcYMmK) version. I can print on
> > > small single sheets of paper - however
> > > loading them is a pain - so I always just
> > > leave the A0 (36") rolls installed.
> > >
> > > With ours at least I don't think the inks
> > > are UV cured. They smell like they have a
> > > solvent in them rather than just water
> > > based though. We did not get any special
> > > options with it for printing on anything
> > > but paper/vinyl - so the UV curing must be
> > > special.
> > >
> > > The carts for this one are a box about 1-2
> > > liters in volume. Don't think they are
> > > all ink inside though as they dont weight
> > > 2 kilograms. The light Cyan cart is 95%
> > > empty so I will investigate further when
> > > I swap it in the next few weeks.
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
>
> > > "lcdpublishing"
> > >
> > > <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This printer is the DesignJet 500. I think the ink tanks are around
> > > > $30.00 or so. That's the funny part about this printer. It doesn't
> > > > get much use at all. I only print about 30 line drawings on about 5
> > > > times a year. So, most of the ink it's used has leaked out or is
> > > > sitting in that ink well :-(
> > > >
> > > > The ink tanks are big, much bigger than the ones we use on desktop
> > > > printers. So, it it isn't leaking, they last a long time - I can't
> > > > remember the last time I bought some.
> > > >
> > > > Seeing as this printer is 24" wide, and I don't know the minimum
> > > > size it can print on (I am always printing from a 24" roll), I don't
> > > > know if I can feed a small sheet through it. How big of a sheet of
> > > > that PCB material do you have?
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com<Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "Myc Holmes"
> > > > <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I think almost any UV source would work, probably not LEDs.
> > > > Exposure time
> > > > > will be dependant on the source and the thickness of the ink. Put
> > > > it out on
> > > > > a sunny day. :)
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the model # and how much are the cartridges. What do you
> > > > use to
> > > > > clean up the mes? Just curious.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you really get annoyed one day, I can send you some paper thin
> > > > pcb
> > > > > material. It feeds through an regular inkjet and laser printer
> > > > just fine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Myc
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7/25/06, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mycroft,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not certain of the INK, my only exposure with it is when I
> > > > have
> > > > > > problems with that printer and usually it's a messy
> problem!!!!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That printer has a problem that i have yet to figure out. When
> > > > > > printing some drawings, it seems as though it is pissing out ink
> > > > > > like a race horse. I end up with drops of black ink everywhere.
> > > > > > The ink-well where I think the head goes for cleaning is now so
> > > > full
> > > > > > it is leaking onto the floor - just noticed that this morning.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > HP says it has a leaking hose - hogwash I say. I think something
> > > > > > else is wrong based on my observations. HP also wants
> $170.00 for
> > > > > > the stupid hoses so that I can replace them to "See if that
> > > > corrects
> > > > > > the problem".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyway, what I am getting to is this. Usually the mess I find is
> > > > > > large drops of ink. Just guessing, I would say it is thicker
> than
> > > > > > Epson ink - just a hunch though. Furthermore, the spilled ink
> > > > never
> > > > > > seems to dry - it's just a big ole mess.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the printer acts up on a day when I am in a really bad mood
> > > > (like
> > > > > > what has been happening lately alot), I may end up running a PCB
> > > > > > through that damn thing just to see if it will work for our
> > > > process.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I really don't know much more about that printer. It's big, it's
> > > > > > expensive, it makes big messes, it annoys the heck out of me,
> > > > but I
> > > > > > need it for business.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The next time it "Leaks ink from the hose", I will try to scoop
> > > > some
> > > > > > up and put it on a PCB to test. However, how would I cure the
> > > > ink?
> > > > > > What would I use for a UV light source for something like that?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
> Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
>
> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > > "Myc Holmes"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <mycroft2152y@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would think a UV cure system would be they way to go. You
> > > > could
> > > > > > even
> > > > > > > 'cure' the board outside the printer. Unless your are very
> > > > > > careful, light
> > > > > > > 'spillage" in the printer will cure the ink on the head or
> glue
> > > > > > the head to
> > > > > > > excess ink pad.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The high solids UV cure systems are used to reduce VOC
> > > > (Volatile
> > > > > > Organic
> > > > > > > compounds) emissions in industry to meet air quality
> standards.
> > > > > > These still
> > > > > > > do have minor amounts of solvents and tend to be very viscous
> > > > > > (thick).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chris, have you ever looked at the ink used in the HP? how
> > > > does it
> > > > > > compare
> > > > > > > to the MIS or Epson ink as far as viscosity (flow
> > > > > > characteristics)? Is the
> > > > > > > inkjet head heated? What kind of cleaning cycle does it use?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So what is needed? Starting with an Epson piezo print
> head, you
> > > > > > need a
> > > > > > > fluid that has the same flow and drying characteristics as the
> > > > > > pigment ink.
> > > > > > > That means, water based, small particle size, and 'slow'
> > > > drying.
> > > > > > Also it has
> > > > > > > to have the proper wetting out characteristics and adhesion to
> > > > the
> > > > > > prepared
> > > > > > > copper pcb, both before and after the cure step. Of course it
> > > > has
> > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > applied in a layer thick enough and durable to survive the
> > > > etching
> > > > > > bath.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Finally, it has to be KISS simple, inexpensive and easily
> > > > > > available.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've been thinking about this for quite a while, and the only
> > > > > > possibility
> > > > > > > that I have been able to come up with, short of specially
> > > > > > compounding, is
> > > > > > > the spray-on photo sensitizing liquid for pcbs. It has the
> > > > proper
> > > > > > after
> > > > > > > printer characteristics. the question is what needs to be done
> > > > to
> > > > > > get it
> > > > > > > through the EPSON print head successfully.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Up until just recently, I have not had an Epson printer to
> > > > > > experiment with,
> > > > > > > only the Lexmarks's that use the vaporized droplet method.
> > > > Since
> > > > > > there are 6
> > > > > > > separate heads on the R220, I think a few could be sacrificed
> > > > to
> > > > > > try this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Myc
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 7/25/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@ <lcdpublishing%
> > > > > > 40yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To:
> <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > > > 40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:12 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson R220 PCB printing Report
> > > > #1
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >I would suspect that you would be better off finding/using
> > > > a UV
> > > > > > > > > cured Ink. My large HP Printer (24" wide) uses UV cured
> > > > ink but
> > > > > > > > > being a big and expensive printer, I have not yet had the
> > > > > > courage to
> > > > > > > > > try and run a PCB through it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > With that system, if I understand it correctly, the print
> > > > head
> > > > > > puts
> > > > > > > > > the ink on the paper, and next to the print head is a UV
> > > > light
> > > > > > > > > source that cures it instantly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Some day I would like get the guts up to run a PCB through
> > > > it,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > that won't happen anytime soon I am afraid.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That's how industrial ink jet printers work, for printing on
> > > > all
> > > > > > sorts of
> > > > > > > > materials, including PCBs.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Leon
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]