Homebrew PCBs

Sigh... well, I knew I'd never get a consensus when I asked about this a year ago.

So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It is free or cheap.

I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do you think it will hurt or help? 

In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, my instructor told me to choose which Schem. Capture/ PCB Router I would learn. There is a classroom budget for software, so I could pick something not free, but something that costs $2,000 to $15,000 isn't going to happen. I don't want something so limited that I can only put a few generic ICs on a board.

I'm attending Bates Technical College, Electronic Engineering Technician course. While I'm here, I'm getting the CET I should have gotten long ago and going for the FCC commercial license.

Steve Greenfield

Hi Steve,

I've ended up going with AutoTrax myself.
It is low cost and after trying it for a while, found that it 
actually works.
There are some surprises with it, such as not a lot of packages in 
the library, and some heavy duty reading needed to understand it - 
but once you see what it does it is actuallay very good for the price.

I'm an registered electrician / electronics technician / designer / 
inventor / and  heavy drinker, and I get really pissed of with 
software (and other things) that don't fit the bill.
AutoTrax has work for me and doesn't cost the huge price of things 
like Easy-PC.

It easily suits multi-monitor computers (would advise something beter 
than an Atari though) and is flexible in what it can do from package 
design, footprint design, 3D, spice, schematic and pcb - although I 
have not been using it for long and have not mastered complex PCBs, 
it is doing what I want for now.

Good luck with your endevours.

Daryl Mills
LogicResearch.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve Greenfield 
<alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> Sigh... well, I knew I'd never get a consensus when I asked about 
this a year ago.
> 
> So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about 
using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for 
the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It 
is free or cheap.
> 
> I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do 
you think it will hurt or help? 
> 
> In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, my instructor told me 
to choose which Schem. Capture/ PCB Router I would learn. There is a 
classroom budget for software, so I could pick something not free, 
but something that costs $2,000 to $15,000 isn't going to happen. I 
don't want something so limited that I can only put a few generic ICs 
on a board.
> 
> I'm attending Bates Technical College, Electronic Engineering 
Technician course. While I'm here, I'm getting the CET I should have 
gotten long ago and going for the FCC commercial license.

> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Steve Greenfield" <alienrelics@...>
To: "Homebrew_PCBs Mailing List" <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 5:23 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Which PCB CAD for someone entering the job market?


> Sigh... well, I knew I'd never get a consensus when I asked about this a 
> year ago.
>
> So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about using it 
> in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for the PIC32MXxxxx 
> series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It is free or cheap.
>
> I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do you 
> think it will hurt or help?
>
> In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, my instructor told me to 
> choose which Schem. Capture/ PCB Router I would learn. There is a 
> classroom budget for software, so I could pick something not free, but 
> something that costs $2,000 to $15,000 isn't going to happen. I don't want 
> something so limited that I can only put a few generic ICs on a board.
>
> I'm attending Bates Technical College, Electronic Engineering Technician 
> course. While I'm here, I'm getting the CET I should have gotten long ago 
> and going for the FCC commercial license.

It might be better to describe the PCBs you've designed, rather than mention 
the package you used.

Leon

I'll second Leon's suggestion that you describe the pcbs that you have made.
Mentioning your use of EAGLE is a two edged sword. On one hand it says that
you are familiar with the pcb layout and design process, but on the other
hand, it says you will have to "unlearn" the unique commands of EAGLE. Old
habits die hard.

Your skills would be more desirable if you were able to use one of the more
mainstream commercial pcb programs.

Myc

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 3:23 PM, leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

>   ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Greenfield" <alienrelics@... <alienrelics%40yahoo.com>>
> To: "Homebrew_PCBs Mailing List" <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com<homebrew_pcbs%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 5:23 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Which PCB CAD for someone entering the job market?
>
> > Sigh... well, I knew I'd never get a consensus when I asked about this a
> > year ago.
> >
> > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about using it
> > in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for the
> PIC32MXxxxx
> > series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It is free or cheap.
> >
> > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do you
> > think it will hurt or help?
> >
> > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, my instructor told me to
> > choose which Schem. Capture/ PCB Router I would learn. There is a
> > classroom budget for software, so I could pick something not free, but
> > something that costs $2,000 to $15,000 isn't going to happen. I don't
> want
> > something so limited that I can only put a few generic ICs on a board.
> >
> > I'm attending Bates Technical College, Electronic Engineering Technician
> > course. While I'm here, I'm getting the CET I should have gotten long ago
>
> > and going for the FCC commercial license.
>
> It might be better to describe the PCBs you've designed, rather than
> mention
> the package you used.
>
> Leon
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That'd be a good idea ;-)

If you say you can use Eagle, they will surely hire you. After all
they will know that you are a _very_ patient man!
Also they'll think we can give this guy really crappy tools and he
won't complain ;-)

Seriously it doesn't matter much if you have no experience with the
particular layout tool they use. What matters is that you have
experience with some layout tool, and other software, and that you are
able to learn quickly. I had never seen eagle and it wasn't hard to
start right off making a board, well, no harder than it is now after
two years of using this cr@p.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, use what you like most.

ST

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 9:23 PM, leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

> It might be better to describe the PCBs you've designed, rather than mention
> the package you used.
>
> Leon
>

I just joined this group with the recommendation of people in some other
groups, so I'm sorry if someone else has said the same thing i have
recently.

I have had fairly good luck with Eagle so far.  Although, I was using the
premium version my boss had paid for.  I didn't even know there was an auto
route tool.  So I guess if you know the ins and the out of any software that
would make it useful.  Now I know how to better exploit it, although it did
seem like it needed to be kicked in the right direction pretty frequently to
get what I wanted done.  It is also very easy to lay out traces in the
schematic side and have them not actually connect, just sit next to each
other...pretty useless in my mind.

-- 
Erik L. Knise
Pacific Shipping Company
Seattle, WA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Steve.

I'll agree with all the other comments to date, and add my 2d.

Having used any schematic capture and PCB layout package will be an advantage. 
I would try a few if possible - some companies prefer OrCad (wow - I've got the 
version from DOS 1.? days :) others go for the Pulsonix, DipTrace or Eagle. 
Even if you do a simple board in several, you can claim experience (if not 
expertise) in them all.

HTH,
Donald.
-- Who has benefited from many of your sage words over the years.

Steve Greenfield wrote:

> Sigh... well, I knew I'd never get a consensus when I asked about this a year ago.
> 
> So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It is free or cheap.
> 
> I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do you think it will hurt or help? 
> 
> In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, my instructor told me to choose which Schem. Capture/ PCB Router I would learn. There is a classroom budget for software, so I could pick something not free, but something that costs $2,000 to $15,000 isn't going to happen. I don't want something so limited that I can only put a few generic ICs on a board.
> 
> I'm attending Bates Technical College, Electronic Engineering Technician course. While I'm here, I'm getting the CET I should have gotten long ago and going for the FCC commercial license.
> 
> Steve Greenfield

Silvercircuits.com offer pcb layout for $15/hr using Eagle pcb if you supply
the schematic.  Probably not a good line to get into get rich.

I'd say try to learn industry OrCAD or Altium designer (formerly Protel).
They should offer student licenses.  When I was a EE, OrCAD and pspice
simulation were the rave to have on your resume.


On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Erik Knise <elknise@...> wrote:

>   I just joined this group with the recommendation of people in some other
> groups, so I'm sorry if someone else has said the same thing i have
> recently.
>
> I have had fairly good luck with Eagle so far. Although, I was using the
> premium version my boss had paid for. I didn't even know there was an auto
> route tool. So I guess if you know the ins and the out of any software that
> would make it useful. Now I know how to better exploit it, although it did
> seem like it needed to be kicked in the right direction pretty frequently
> to
> get what I wanted done. It is also very easy to lay out traces in the
> schematic side and have them not actually connect, just sit next to each
> other...pretty useless in my mind.
>
> --
> Erik L. Knise
> Pacific Shipping Company
> Seattle, WA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Steve,

> So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about 
using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for 
the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It 
is free or cheap.

There are a few unlimited and 100% free PCB-tools available, so there 
is no need to work with crippleware. IMHO EAGLE is crippleware and 
this opinion is not limited to the free version. A schematic-tool 
without any support for hirarchical designs is crippleware even if 
you have to pay for.

> I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do 
you think it will hurt or help? 

I guess, the question about tools is as stupid as to say what type of 
car you learned to drive. It is more interesting if you are able to 
design good electronics and that you have the knowledge to design a 
PCB that is EMC compatible. 

> In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, 

AutoCAD for ECAD? Never seen this in the field.

Regards
Martin

for my ee hobby.. I have autotrax... Lowest cost $99, 
full version SCH, PCB and a simulator.
http://kov.com/Default.aspx

I in the past when it was a good buisness had a PCB design service , 
used, Zuken, Mentor, Cadence, PCAD, ORCAD, PADS, Protel...
I liked protel the best... of the middle end but they are basicaly 
history... Many are now dust or combined...

  Due to china Layout people costing $15 ~ $20 a "DAY".... including 
benifits... You can make more being a plummer...

PCB Layout people are a dime a dozen now... 
except for those who operate the three largest Most expensive 
software packages. Cadence , Mentor, and Zuken.. and they really 
only pay well for IC, RF and Hybrid designers...

BoonS






--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "martin_schoenegg" 
<Martin.Schoenegg@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> 
> > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about 
> using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library 
for 
> the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. 
It 
> is free or cheap.
> 
> There are a few unlimited and 100% free PCB-tools available, so 
there 
> is no need to work with crippleware. IMHO EAGLE is crippleware and 
> this opinion is not limited to the free version. A schematic-tool 
> without any support for hirarchical designs is crippleware even if 
> you have to pay for.
> 
> > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, 
do 
> you think it will hurt or help? 
> 
> I guess, the question about tools is as stupid as to say what type 
of 
> car you learned to drive. It is more interesting if you are able 
to 
> design good electronics and that you have the knowledge to design 
a 

> PCB that is EMC compatible. 
> 
> > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, 
> 
> AutoCAD for ECAD? Never seen this in the field.
> 
> Regards
> Martin
>

I think if I was going to hire someone, I couldn't really give a rats 
patutee what the resume looked like as long as they did the job.
I have worked with guys who have police tracking fitted, but they are 
brilliant.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "boons007" <boons007@...> wrote:
>
> 
> for my ee hobby.. I have autotrax... Lowest cost $99, 
> full version SCH, PCB and a simulator.
> http://kov.com/Default.aspx
> 
> I in the past when it was a good buisness had a PCB design 
service , 
> used, Zuken, Mentor, Cadence, PCAD, ORCAD, PADS, Protel...
> I liked protel the best... of the middle end but they are basicaly 
> history... Many are now dust or combined...
> 
>   Due to china Layout people costing $15 ~ $20 a "DAY".... 
including 
> benifits... You can make more being a plummer...
> 
> PCB Layout people are a dime a dozen now... 
> except for those who operate the three largest Most expensive 
> software packages. Cadence , Mentor, and Zuken.. and they really 
> only pay well for IC, RF and Hybrid designers...
> 
> BoonS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "martin_schoenegg" 
> <Martin.Schoenegg@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> > 
> > > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about 
> > using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library 
> for 
> > the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. 
> It 
> > is free or cheap.
> > 
> > There are a few unlimited and 100% free PCB-tools available, so 
> there 
> > is no need to work with crippleware. IMHO EAGLE is crippleware 
and 
> > this opinion is not limited to the free version. A schematic-tool 
> > without any support for hirarchical designs is crippleware even 
if 
> > you have to pay for.
> > 
> > > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my 
resume, 
> do 
> > you think it will hurt or help? 
> > 
> > I guess, the question about tools is as stupid as to say what 
type 

> of 
> > car you learned to drive. It is more interesting if you are able 
> to 
> > design good electronics and that you have the knowledge to design 
> a 
> > PCB that is EMC compatible. 
> > 
> > > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, 
> > 
> > AutoCAD for ECAD? Never seen this in the field.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Martin
> >
>

I agree... Resumes are SQUAT... Many are just KEY words for HR.

The important thing is can they do the job... at your price and 
schedule ...

  So did your Guy do it  $20 a "DAY" including overhead like China ?
These days businesses get a Chinese EE with a masters to also to 
look over the design when he is laying it out.... OH and he will 
work 12+ hours a day without a complaint..

BoonS


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "logicresearch" 
<logicresearch@...> wrote:
>
> I think if I was going to hire someone, I couldn't really give a 
rats 
> patutee what the resume looked like as long as they did the job.
> I have worked with guys who have police tracking fitted, but they 
are 
> brilliant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "boons007" <boons007@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > for my ee hobby.. I have autotrax... Lowest cost $99, 
> > full version SCH, PCB and a simulator.
> > http://kov.com/Default.aspx
> > 
> > I in the past when it was a good buisness had a PCB design 
> service , 
> > used, Zuken, Mentor, Cadence, PCAD, ORCAD, PADS, Protel...
> > I liked protel the best... of the middle end but they are 
basicaly 
> > history... Many are now dust or combined...
> > 
> >   Due to china Layout people costing $15 ~ $20 a "DAY".... 
> including 
> > benifits... You can make more being a plummer...
> > 
> > PCB Layout people are a dime a dozen now... 
> > except for those who operate the three largest Most expensive 
> > software packages. Cadence , Mentor, and Zuken.. and they really 
> > only pay well for IC, RF and Hybrid designers...
> > 
> > BoonS
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "martin_schoenegg" 
> > <Martin.Schoenegg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Steve,
> > > 
> > > > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book 
about 
> > > using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a 
library 
> > for 
> > > the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 
3. 
> > It 
> > > is free or cheap.
> > > 
> > > There are a few unlimited and 100% free PCB-tools available, 
so 
> > there 
> > > is no need to work with crippleware. IMHO EAGLE is crippleware 
> and 
> > > this opinion is not limited to the free version. A schematic-
tool 
> > > without any support for hirarchical designs is crippleware 
even 
> if 
> > > you have to pay for.
> > > 
> > > > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my 
> resume, 
> > do 
> > > you think it will hurt or help? 
> > > 
> > > I guess, the question about tools is as stupid as to say what 
> type 
> > of 
> > > car you learned to drive. It is more interesting if you are 
able 
> > to 
> > > design good electronics and that you have the knowledge to 
design 

> > a 
> > > PCB that is EMC compatible. 
> > > 
> > > > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, 
> > > 
> > > AutoCAD for ECAD? Never seen this in the field.
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > Martin
> > >
> >
>

> 
>   So did your Guy do it  $20 a "DAY" including overhead like China ?
> These days businesses get a Chinese EE with a masters to also to 
> look over the design when he is laying it out.... OH and he will 
> work 12+ hours a day without a complaint..
> 
> BoonS

He is now very high up in engineering (about 2IC I beleive) and greatly 
respected by everyone for his work attitude, ethics and ability - on 
the same pay rate as everyone else and as he desirves.

Daryl.

I should add also that although he was a bad bugger in his younger day, 
he realised the error of his ways and is a highly respected man these 
days.  I regeard him in the highest for that alone, then more again for 
his work abilities.

Daryl.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "logicresearch" 
<logicresearch@...> wrote:
>
> > 
> >   So did your Guy do it  $20 a "DAY" including overhead like China ?
> > These days businesses get a Chinese EE with a masters to also to 
> > look over the design when he is laying it out.... OH and he will 
> > work 12+ hours a day without a complaint..
> > 
> > BoonS
> 
> He is now very high up in engineering (about 2IC I beleive) and 
greatly 

> respected by everyone for his work attitude, ethics and ability - on 
> the same pay rate as everyone else and as he desirves.
> 
> Daryl.
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "boons007" <boons007@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I agree... Resumes are SQUAT... Many are just KEY words for HR.
> 
> The important thing is can they do the job... at your price and 
> schedule ...

From the perspective of someone who has been looking/working without 
a degree, all the HR departments I've interacted with are not 
interested in even considering someone without that official 
paperwork. With few exceptions, I've ended up working in one-man TV 
shops, because then the person interviewing me can do the job, and so 
can tell if I know what I'm talking about.

Two exceptions, I had a personal recommendation from a friend who 
worked there. The third exception, I was hired into a very low-skill 
level position with the intention to move me into R&D after about 9 
months, and I'm sure they were checking me out to make sure I was 
what I seemed. Unfortunately the corporation that had bought it out 
three years before had other plans and they closed the factory.

Fortunately, that made me eligible for Displaced Worker Retraining, 
which I hadn't even known existed, so I get up to 2 years of 
schooling paid for, with a bit extra to help pay for books and 
supplies. Thank the great spaghetti monster for Amazon's used book 
sellers!

I'm pushing 50. It is my intention to get as much as I can out of 
school and get good scores from all my instructors. So I'm often 
there an hour before class starts, I am taking additional classes not 
required in my course (microcontrollers in assembler and C, for 
example), finally getting a CET Associate and Journeyman (preferably 
at least two) and the GROL, and I started a club that is building a 
CNC mill that I'm designing.

I want to be impressive enough that potential employers won't even be 
thinking about my age.

Steve Greenfield

It is difficult but not impossible to make non-documented experience
and skills count for you.
You need to try smaller companies as you say, where you will speak
with an engineer and not just a form filling robot. Definitely avoid
any general purpose recruitment agents, they are only wasting your
time.

Someone has to take a risk to employ you despite the missing
paperwork, you must make them confident that it is worth it.
Demand reasonable pay, you can't expect to get as much as someone with
a degree, but if you bring more to the job than your paperwork says
you deserve more in return.

Anyway for you personally this advise is useless now, since you will
have all the paperwork an employer can dream of ;-)
I don't know when you want to retire, but it will probably be longer
than most young employees seem to stay in one company these days. Your
potential employer ought to consider that.


ST

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> From the perspective of someone who has been looking/working without
> a degree, all the HR departments I've interacted with are not
> interested in even considering someone without that official
> paperwork. With few exceptions, I've ended up working in one-man TV
> shops, because then the person interviewing me can do the job, and so
> can tell if I know what I'm talking about.
>
> Two exceptions, I had a personal recommendation from a friend who
> worked there. The third exception, I was hired into a very low-skill
> level position with the intention to move me into R&D after about 9
> months, and I'm sure they were checking me out to make sure I was
> what I seemed. Unfortunately the corporation that had bought it out
> three years before had other plans and they closed the factory.
>
> Fortunately, that made me eligible for Displaced Worker Retraining,
> which I hadn't even known existed, so I get up to 2 years of
> schooling paid for, with a bit extra to help pay for books and
> supplies. Thank the great spaghetti monster for Amazon's used book
> sellers!
>
> I'm pushing 50. It is my intention to get as much as I can out of
> school and get good scores from all my instructors. So I'm often
> there an hour before class starts, I am taking additional classes not
> required in my course (microcontrollers in assembler and C, for
> example), finally getting a CET Associate and Journeyman (preferably
> at least two) and the GROL, and I started a club that is building a
> CNC mill that I'm designing.
>
> I want to be impressive enough that potential employers won't even be
> thinking about my age.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
>
>

2009/2/6 boons007 <boons007@...>:

> I in the past when it was a good buisness had a PCB design service ,
> used, Zuken, Mentor, Cadence, PCAD, ORCAD, PADS, Protel...
> I liked protel the best... of the middle end but they are basicaly
> history... Many are now dust or combined..

Huh? If you're saying Protel is history, that's far from the case.
They've renamed to Altium (for some reason, when they added a bunch of
FPGA and software tools, they changed the name).
Their Schematic and PCB tools are really rather good.
www.altium.com/products/altiumdesigner/

(No connection, just a user)

Steve

Steve

True altium designer is the next generation
sort of like Horse and Buggy transformeation to the Car...
the Omish still do use the horse and buggy...
  Protel the software package is history just like PCAD (also owned 
by altium)

  I had decided not to buy Altuim Designer and go forward in the 
market bcause the pcb design market is being heavily outsourced to 
china, indonesia, malaysia etc..

  After "Slaving" in the business for too many years.. I have 
decided it's a loosing proposition to compete against $15~25 per 
hour including overhead for oversease Design services.
Part of the reason for the low cost is PCB designer making $8 ~ 25 
a "DAY" depending on country...

  the USA rate $75 ~ $150 per hour for services (PCB designer, 
depreciated software Cost, Anual maintenance, and Overhead is no 
longer ompetitive.. 

so to compete...
   I evaluated the P/L and am now considering changing to "Techincal 
interfcae/SALES" for USA companies that need the service to change 
and use those "LOW WAGE" Design Houses.. therby reducing the USA 
employment oportunities and the general wages in the USA for that 
mid level market... 

  I have come to the conclusion. It's more Lucrative and fewer 
ULSERS in sales nowdays than actualy doing the work. Just look at 
the "ADVERTISING and SALES" budget versus "ENGINEERING" budget in 
most modern USA companies... Also look at the number of Millionares 
from sales/Marketing versus Engineering....

after being layed off..
Have you learned the next USA Engineers job technical phrase... 
WOULD YOU LIKE TO SUPER SIZE IT ???


BoonS






--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve Wiseman <sjwiseman@...> 
wrote:
>
> 2009/2/6 boons007 <boons007@...>:
> 
> > I in the past when it was a good buisness had a PCB design 
service ,
> > used, Zuken, Mentor, Cadence, PCAD, ORCAD, PADS, Protel...
> > I liked protel the best... of the middle end but they are 
basicaly
> > history... Many are now dust or combined..
> 
> Huh? If you're saying Protel is history, that's far from the case.
> They've renamed to Altium (for some reason, when they added a 
bunch of

> FPGA and software tools, they changed the name).
> Their Schematic and PCB tools are really rather good.
> www.altium.com/products/altiumdesigner/
> 
> (No connection, just a user)
> 
> Steve
> 
> Steve
>

Not that this has anything to actually do with Homebrew PCBs, but this
is the problem with outsourcing. Simple economics and risk management
are lost in this process.

The NREs (Non-Recurring Engineering charges) are divided across the
manufacturing volume as a cost. Now, if we make 20 of the product,
then the design NRE will be very large per unit. If we make 20,000 of
them, it will be small. The difference per unit between a high and a
low cost designer is tiny. 

However, by having the design done in-house or by a separate design
contractor locally, you have a much greater level of control over the
design copyrights, and consequently a lower risk profile.

I've had clients discover this the hard way .. outsource the design to
India, and then discover that the designer suddenly becomes their
competitor by making some small improvements or changes to the product
and selling it himself. And what can we do about it? Nothing, because
there is no design protection in those countries worth speaking of.

And I've seen it more than once.

Manufacturing outsourcing is an absolute must, simply because it is
the only way to compete at the manufacturing level with anyone else
making product in those countries. But keep the real value of the
product - the intellectual property embodied in it - at home.

And I'm not an American .. I'm Australian. Outsource to us at 65 cents
on the dollar for design work if you really want to save some money -
at least we do have decent intellectual property protection laws here.

But when your clients say they're going to get the design (or
programming) done in India or whatever .. tell them they're probably
giving away the very core asset of their company while they're doing it.

Even more off topic .. what really frightens me is outsourced data
management. The thought of my bank outsourcing all of my personal
details to a database running in India scares the heck out of me. If
there was one thing I could change, it would be to amend the data
privacy laws in my country to state that not only can the data not be
revealed to a third party, it must be fully managed in the country in
which it was originally provided. The second that data crosses a
national boundary it may as well be posted on the internet for all the
security on it is worth. Ask your bank where their data is managed and
take your money out if it is in a country other than the one you live
in .. or think about the possibility of trying to sue a Cambodian data
operations company for revealing your financial details to your
ex-spouse (and I'm married and have no ex! :^)

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "boons007" <boons007@...> wrote:

>
>   I had decided not to buy Altuim Designer and go forward in the 
> market bcause the pcb design market is being heavily outsourced to 
> china, indonesia, malaysia etc..
> 
>   After "Slaving" in the business for too many years.. I have 
> decided it's a loosing proposition to compete against $15~25 per 
> hour including overhead for oversease Design services.
> Part of the reason for the low cost is PCB designer making $8 ~ 25 
> a "DAY" depending on country...

That's the only way to _really_ impress them.  Get a foot in the door and show 
them you can do the job.  Keep it up!

Flexibility, consistency, accuracy, quality -- do it all.

(pushing the low end of 60 and just started a new R&D job.)
Donald.

Steve wrote:

[snip]

> I want to be impressive enough that potential employers won't even be 
> thinking about my age.
> 
> Steve Greenfield

I see that OrCAD has a free demo limited in size of project, I don't recall that being available before. It is almost a Gig download so don't try this on dialup.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Henry Liu <henryjliu@...> wrote:

>
> Silvercircuits.com offer pcb layout for $15/hr using Eagle pcb if you supply
> the schematic.  Probably not a good line to get into get rich.
> 
> I'd say try to learn industry OrCAD or Altium designer (formerly Protel).
> They should offer student licenses.  When I was a EE, OrCAD and pspice
> simulation were the rave to have on your resume.
>

I've been in this business about 30 years.  You will be on a constant learning curve - in the past you did here about a few engineers that made it rich - it looks like that might belong to china now.  So if you are getting into this field you better love it.  The work and lack of appreciation for your brilliance is lacking.
There will always be a new CAD package to learn.  It's important that you understand the concepts and have a fast learning curve.  Eagle has a learning curve (at least for me).  It's a German product written on a linux platform - translation and porting have taken it's toll.
The biggest problem with CAD systems it the libraries are all wrong.  You can't just put a part on the board and go.  Normally you spend 90% of your time designing parts for your application.  The parts basically have to be designed for the house that is going to manufacture the board.  You will not make any money doing this.  But as a hands on guy I think it is mandatory that an engineer know HOW TO design a board from concept through production.  There will be cheap CAD designers for some time to come.  
I don't know if there is a group to review and post parts for Eagle but it sure would be a good idea.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "phildimond" <my-yahoo-groups@...> wrote:

>
> Not that this has anything to actually do with Homebrew PCBs, but this
> is the problem with outsourcing. Simple economics and risk management
> are lost in this process.
> 
> The NREs (Non-Recurring Engineering charges) are divided across the
> manufacturing volume as a cost. Now, if we make 20 of the product,
> then the design NRE will be very large per unit. If we make 20,000 of
> them, it will be small. The difference per unit between a high and a
> low cost designer is tiny. 
> 
> However, by having the design done in-house or by a separate design
> contractor locally, you have a much greater level of control over the
> design copyrights, and consequently a lower risk profile.
> 
> I've had clients discover this the hard way .. outsource the design to
> India, and then discover that the designer suddenly becomes their
> competitor by making some small improvements or changes to the product
> and selling it himself. And what can we do about it? Nothing, because
> there is no design protection in those countries worth speaking of.
> 
> And I've seen it more than once.
> 
> Manufacturing outsourcing is an absolute must, simply because it is
> the only way to compete at the manufacturing level with anyone else
> making product in those countries. But keep the real value of the
> product - the intellectual property embodied in it - at home.
> 
> And I'm not an American .. I'm Australian. Outsource to us at 65 cents
> on the dollar for design work if you really want to save some money -
> at least we do have decent intellectual property protection laws here.
> 
> But when your clients say they're going to get the design (or
> programming) done in India or whatever .. tell them they're probably
> giving away the very core asset of their company while they're doing it.
> 
> Even more off topic .. what really frightens me is outsourced data
> management. The thought of my bank outsourcing all of my personal
> details to a database running in India scares the heck out of me. If
> there was one thing I could change, it would be to amend the data
> privacy laws in my country to state that not only can the data not be
> revealed to a third party, it must be fully managed in the country in
> which it was originally provided. The second that data crosses a
> national boundary it may as well be posted on the internet for all the
> security on it is worth. Ask your bank where their data is managed and
> take your money out if it is in a country other than the one you live
> in .. or think about the possibility of trying to sue a Cambodian data
> operations company for revealing your financial details to your
> ex-spouse (and I'm married and have no ex! :^)
> 
> Phil
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "boons007" <boons007@> wrote:
> >
> >   I had decided not to buy Altuim Designer and go forward in the 
> > market bcause the pcb design market is being heavily outsourced to 
> > china, indonesia, malaysia etc..
> > 
> >   After "Slaving" in the business for too many years.. I have 
> > decided it's a loosing proposition to compete against $15~25 per 
> > hour including overhead for oversease Design services.
> > Part of the reason for the low cost is PCB designer making $8 ~ 25 
> > a "DAY" depending on country...
>

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 4:16 PM, rtrtbb <robert_terrell@...> wrote:
> Eagle has a learning curve (at least for me).  It's a German product written on a linux platform - translation and porting have taken it's toll.

If you attribute it's shortcomings to translation and porting, you are
far more generous a man than I. ;-)

> The biggest problem with CAD systems it the libraries are all wrong.

Yes. They usually are.

> I don't know if there is a group to review and post parts for Eagle but it sure would be a good idea.

I'm not sure. Even reviewed they will not be right for you or me.
Probably they were right for someone as they are, just not us.

I've accepted a long time ago libraries are not to be relied upon,
with any PCB package.

ST

On 14/03/2009, at 2:16 AM, rtrtbb wrote:

> I don't know if there is a group to review and post parts for Eagle  
> but it sure would be a good idea.

CADSoft do have a public, we-don't-guarantee-it library sharing area:

http://www.cadsoft.de/cgi-bin/download.pl?page=/home/cadsoft/html_public/download.htm.en&dir=pub/userfiles/libraries

And sparkfun also maintain a library which contains a good deal of the  
stuff they sell, if you're able to limit yourself to just them.

Maybe that helps ...

PG