QTR-Quadtone RIP

I am going to buy the Epson R3000 that will be used for my B&W artwork.
I would love to work with Carbon inks in several shades to achieve a very smooth result.
I have investigated several options for an alternative ink system based on the so-called 'Piezography' workflow, in where all color inks will be replaced for blacks in several shades. I know about John Cone's Piezography inks, but this is a pretty expensive investment. Besides that, I live in Europe and thanks for the links section here I found a great alternative; http://shop.farbenwerk.com/schwarzweiss-tinten/carbonprint-museum
-This is a German site who sells pure Carbon inks up to 8 shades. While for the Cone inks you will need a RIP like Quad Tone, this site suggest a different workflow (http://shop.farbenwerk.com/...69/schwarz-weiss-drucken-mit-carbonprint-museum).
-It boils down to keeping the image file in RGB (AdobeRGB1998), while making it B&W with a layer channel, but keeping it in RGB. Then just use the print command and so on.
I don't really understand this workflow, will all the shades of grey be used in this approach, just like it would with Quad Tone RIP? 
Another approach will be working with Quad Tone RIP. But I don't have a profile to load into QTR, like the pre-made files QTR has for Cone inks. And even if I would use Cone inks QTR does not have an Epson R3000 profile as far as I can see.. (Only for K3).
Can I still work with QTR in combi with these Carbon German inks or do I need profiling equipment to make QTR work with this ink?
Thank you for your time, I hope someone can help me out, I am new to this.

dannyvanrijswijk <nightf3v3r@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> ... Epson R3000 ... for my B&W artwork.
> I would love to work with Carbon inks in several shades to achieve a very
> smooth result.
>
If the best longevity is important, stay with 100% carbon.  The tinted or
toned carbon inks are very dependent on the quality of the color inks added
to them to avoid differential fade that causes the image tone to shift.  As
much as I like to save money on inks, I use HP Z3100/3200  where I want a
blended carbon + color (neutral) inkset, and I use Epson LC and LM inks
with MIS carbon where I want to have full control of the print tone.  See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf .  This last approach
does require QTR for control.



> ... a pretty expensive investment.
>

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Carbon-6.pdf for the least expensive
100% carbon printing approach that uses dilute inks.  You can mix the inks,
buy the pre-mixed base from MIS, or buy the entire inkset pre-mixed --
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf .

Note that these inkset can be printed with either QTR or the Epson driver.

... http://shop.farbenwerk.com/schwarzweiss-tinten/carbonprint-museum
>
Judging from the shades of the prints I see, I'd guess they are using a
rather standard warm carbon.  All carbon pigments are warm, but the reason
I selected and used the ink MIS sells as "Eboni" is that, in addition to a
good dmax on matte paper, it is less warm than the other 100% carbon inks
on almost all matte papers.

Good luck with your search.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul and Danny,

By the way, a few days ago Mark posted the h1 batch results on Aardenburg Imaging. My submission, #144, continues to do well... it has now hit the 100 Megalux-hours mark.

Danny, in case you're not familiar with this, I'm referring to a print longevity testing service in Western Massachusetts. See:

          http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/index.html

Membership is now free but I think you have to register to read the results.

Paul, my old 1800 setup continues to hold up, but I suspect one of these days I'll have to move to your carbon 6 setup.

Paul

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> dannyvanrijswijk <nightf3v3r@...> wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > ... Epson R3000 ... for my B&W artwork.
> > I would love to work with Carbon inks in several shades to achieve a very
> > smooth result.
> >
> If the best longevity is important, stay with 100% carbon.  The tinted or
> toned carbon inks are very dependent on the quality of the color inks added
> to them to avoid differential fade that causes the image tone to shift.  As
> much as I like to save money on inks, I use HP Z3100/3200  where I want a
> blended carbon + color (neutral) inkset, and I use Epson LC and LM inks
> with MIS carbon where I want to have full control of the print tone.  See
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf .  This last approach
> does require QTR for control.
> 
> 
> 
> > ... a pretty expensive investment.
> >
> 
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Carbon-6.pdf for the least expensive
> 100% carbon printing approach that uses dilute inks.  You can mix the inks,
> buy the pre-mixed base from MIS, or buy the entire inkset pre-mixed --
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf .
> 
> Note that these inkset can be printed with either QTR or the Epson driver.
> 
> ... http://shop.farbenwerk.com/schwarzweiss-tinten/carbonprint-museum
> >
> Judging from the shades of the prints I see, I'd guess they are using a
> rather standard warm carbon.  All carbon pigments are warm, but the reason
> I selected and used the ink MIS sells as "Eboni" is that, in addition to a
> good dmax on matte paper, it is less warm than the other 100% carbon inks
> on almost all matte papers.
> 
> Good luck with your search.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thank you both for your reply. MIS sounds very interesting as well. 

What if I just skip the QTR RIP software and use the standard print command.. (As suggested by the German Carbon ink reseller). Then I still don't understand one thing; if I would like to print with these carbon inks (MIS carbon inks or German Carbon ink 8 shades) and do this just with the standard print command from within Photoshop: how does the printer software know that it can print with all 8 ink gray cartridges? If I would insert K3 inks, it would pick black, the 2 shades of grey (LK, LLK) and perhaps some color to mix grey values.. But how does the print software know it does have not K3 but a whole range of Carbon grey shades to choose from?

On 06/01/2012 04:18 PM, dannyvanrijswijk wrote:
> Thank you both for your reply. MIS sounds very interesting as well.
>
> What if I just skip the QTR RIP software and use the standard print
> command.. (As suggested by the German Carbon ink reseller). Then I still
> don't understand one thing; if I would like to print with these carbon
> inks (MIS carbon inks or German Carbon ink 8 shades) and do this just
> with the standard print command from within Photoshop: how does the
> printer software know that it can print with all 8 ink gray cartridges?
> If I would insert K3 inks, it would pick black, the 2 shades of grey
> (LK, LLK) and perhaps some color to mix grey values.. But how does the
> print software know it does have not K3 but a whole range of Carbon grey
> shades to choose from?


Because the profiles contain special curves for Red, Green and Blue that 
interfere in the normal color mixing and translation to CMYK of the 
driver so grey inks can be used. Paul is a star in creating ACV curves 
in Photoshop for that purpose.

Load some curves in Photoshop to see how it is done:
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT2-curves.html

The curves can be embedded in a special B&W ICC profile made with the 
QTR RGB profile creator. Together with a linearisation measurements file 
so the tone range will be ideal.

I have done the same for an HP Officejet printer that now runs MK, PK, 
Grey and Light Grey inks, the last mixed from HP Vivera PK pigment inks. 
Printing through the HP driver from Qimage.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Hi Paul,

**
>
> ... Mark posted the h1 batch results on Aardenburg Imaging. My submission,
> #144, continues to do well... it has now hit the 100 Megalux-hours mark.
>

I think those Eboni 1800 3-MK results on Premier Art 205 (aka Epson
Scrapbook paper) are the best I've ever seen.  At 100 Mlux-hrs the average
as well as worst 10% I* Color scores are both 100.  The average I* tone is
98.7, and average delta-e is 0.2.  The worst delta-e is the paper at 0.5.
 The 50% patch delta-e is 0.1.

Your test strip was also sprayed with Premier Art Print Shield.  Sadly
there is no sample on that paper that was not sprayed, for comparison.  The
performance of the sample is certainly aided by both the paper and spray.
 The informal testing I did with that paper showed it to be the best I ever
tested.  Epson at one point also said that the Scrapbook paper was its
"most archival" (whatever that means).

The spray on the sample also makes it hard to compare to other
Aardenburg-Imaging samples.  The only Epson UltraChrome ABW samples that
are sprayed are on glossy Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk.  At 90 Mlux-hrs
that sample has a 50% delta-e of 1.8.

At any rate, I think the Eboni 3-MK on sprayed Premier Art 205 (Scrapbook)
paper sets the benchmark for lightfastness in these tests are far as I can
tell.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com




>
> Danny, in case you're not familiar with this, I'm referring to a print
> longevity testing service in Western Massachusetts. See:
>
> http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/index.html
>
> Membership is now free but I think you have to register to read the
> results.
>
> Paul, my old 1800 setup continues to hold up, but I suspect one of these
> days I'll have to move to your carbon 6 setup.
>
> Paul
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:
> >
> > dannyvanrijswijk <nightf3v3r@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > ... Epson R3000 ... for my B&W artwork.
> > > I would love to work with Carbon inks in several shades to achieve a
> very
> > > smooth result.
> > >
> > If the best longevity is important, stay with 100% carbon. The tinted or
> > toned carbon inks are very dependent on the quality of the color inks
> added
> > to them to avoid differential fade that causes the image tone to shift.
> As
> > much as I like to save money on inks, I use HP Z3100/3200 where I want a
> > blended carbon + color (neutral) inkset, and I use Epson LC and LM inks
> > with MIS carbon where I want to have full control of the print tone. See
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf . This last approach
> > does require QTR for control.
> >
> >
> >
> > > ... a pretty expensive investment.
> > >
> >
> > See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Carbon-6.pdf for the least
> expensive
> > 100% carbon printing approach that uses dilute inks. You can mix the
> inks,
> > buy the pre-mixed base from MIS, or buy the entire inkset pre-mixed --
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf .
> >
> > Note that these inkset can be printed with either QTR or the Epson
> driver.
> >
> > ... http://shop.farbenwerk.com/schwarzweiss-tinten/carbonprint-museum
> > >
> > Judging from the shades of the prints I see, I'd guess they are using a
> > rather standard warm carbon. All carbon pigments are warm, but the reason
> > I selected and used the ink MIS sells as "Eboni" is that, in addition to
> a
> > good dmax on matte paper, it is less warm than the other 100% carbon inks
> > on almost all matte papers.
> >
> > Good luck with your search.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,

Yes, I am pleased with those results... but soon after I submitted my samples I wished I had not used the spray, in order to get results more comparable to other tests in the database, most of which do not use a spray. At the time I was under the impression the spray would help improve the test results. Moreover, a while back you mentioned the spray lessened the DMax. 

I guess I could submit some test patterns without the spray... but it would take a while to reach 100 Megalux hours again!

Paul


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Paul,
> 
> **
> >
> > ... Mark posted the h1 batch results on Aardenburg Imaging. My submission,
> > #144, continues to do well... it has now hit the 100 Megalux-hours mark.
> >
> 
> I think those Eboni 1800 3-MK results on Premier Art 205 (aka Epson
> Scrapbook paper) are the best I've ever seen.  At 100 Mlux-hrs the average
> as well as worst 10% I* Color scores are both 100.  The average I* tone is
> 98.7, and average delta-e is 0.2.  The worst delta-e is the paper at 0.5.
>  The 50% patch delta-e is 0.1.
> 
> Your test strip was also sprayed with Premier Art Print Shield.  Sadly
> there is no sample on that paper that was not sprayed, for comparison.  The
> performance of the sample is certainly aided by both the paper and spray.
>  The informal testing I did with that paper showed it to be the best I ever
> tested.  Epson at one point also said that the Scrapbook paper was its
> "most archival" (whatever that means).
> 
> The spray on the sample also makes it hard to compare to other
> Aardenburg-Imaging samples.  The only Epson UltraChrome ABW samples that
> are sprayed are on glossy Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk.  At 90 Mlux-hrs
> that sample has a 50% delta-e of 1.8.
> 
> At any rate, I think the Eboni 3-MK on sprayed Premier Art 205 (Scrapbook)
> paper sets the benchmark for lightfastness in these tests are far as I can
> tell.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > Danny, in case you're not familiar with this, I'm referring to a print
> > longevity testing service in Western Massachusetts. See:
> >
> > http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/index.html
> >
> > Membership is now free but I think you have to register to read the
> > results.
> >
> > Paul, my old 1800 setup continues to hold up, but I suspect one of these
> > days I'll have to move to your carbon 6 setup.
> >
> > Paul

> **
>  ...
>
> I guess I could submit some test patterns without the spray... but it
> would take a while to reach 100 Megalux hours again!
>

I still might be worth it.  We might see from even initial results what the
trends are.

Paul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No kidding,
I would strongly suggest submitting that same images without a coating.. It's an incredible opportunity to evaluate the difference.. so please do it.. I have played with trying and to understand what a coating contributes to longitivity but I'm not a test facility.. but I've been messing with this for several years now.. I just expose pieces to raw sunlight thru the windows in my studio.. it's brutal.. Coatings make a huge difference but what I feel is different about them is that when they reach a point they just stop .. where as with say pigment inks the change is gradual.. not the case with coatings.. they need to be re-applied to continue their effect and when you do that they continue to work work and this part of it we've done it.. 
But all this stuff is a coating.. and it's build up on top of the art work.. right? We have so much yet to learn..

jimbo

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Roark 
  To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 10:21 AM
  Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Carbon printing


    
  > **
  > ...
  >
  > I guess I could submit some test patterns without the spray... but it
  > would take a while to reach 100 Megalux hours again!
  >

  I still might be worth it. We might see from even initial results what the
  trends are.

  Paul

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dannyvanrijswijk <nightf3v3r@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> What if I just skip the QTR RIP software and use the standard print
> command...
>
... if I would like to print with these carbon inks ... and do this just
> with the standard print command from within Photoshop: how does the printer
> software know that it can print with all 8 ink gray cartridges?  ...
>

The printer doesn't "know" what ink is in it.  It was written with the
assumption of Epson CMYK inks in it.  A B&W inkset must be made to be
compatible with this assumption if the Epson driver is a target workflow.

The Epson driver is an RGB driver -- those are the signals that sent to the
driver.  It converts that to CMYK.  As Ernst said, we use RGB Photoshop
curves to control what the driver does.  The driver is not on ABW mode.

The built-in LC to C, LM to M, and C, M, Y to gray/black cross-overs are
things that must be worked with.  You can't change them, but you can
definitely manipulate them and utilize them in a positive way.  The gray to
dark gray cross-overs are excellent, working very well with ink dilutions
where the lighter ink is 30% darker ink, remainder water (with a fair
amount of latitude in dilution range).

Interestingly, if one just puts the LLK and LK in all dilute gray and color
positions, the image printed by the driver will be light.  What used to
match the CRT monitors best were the midtone MIS inks in the UT sets.  The
"UT-C" dark gray carbon (UT-C was about equal to 30% MK [see Eb6], denser
than LK, lighter than PK) and "UT-LC" (30% UT-C), when loaded into an Epson
printer in all "color" positions, worked very well with the Epson drivers
at their default "Color Controls" settings.  With the very bright LCD
monitors, the LK and LLK lightness is about as close as the MIS inks with
those bright monitors left at defaults.

If one combines the MIS LLK-LK-LLK and UTC-UTLC inks in a single set, you
get nicely spaced carbons.  See the QTR partitioning curves at the bottom
of page 4 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf .  The
Eboni-6 progression mimics this and adds an LLLK.

That PDF also shows on page 5 a way of setting QTR up with 2 overlapping
partitions.

The Epson driver is, by nature, a driver that splits the inks into 3
overlapping channels.  A curve that controls this progression or partition
can be embedded into an ICC using QTR's Create ICC-RGB, and the workflow
becomes a "color managed" Epson driver workflow that, with 100% carbon
inksets or with blended inkset, makes a very convenient workflow that
matches the prints to the relative densities shown on a well calibrated
monitor.

I use the QTR rip for when the Epson driver does not allow the control I
like.  The inkset I have in an Epsone 4000, PDF noted above, I use carbon
plus color LC and LM for tone control.  The Epson driver cannot control
individual inks as needed to print with this ink setup.

For monotone inksets, including 100% carbon versions, or where blended
carbon + color inkset are used, the Epson driver with ICCs made with Create
ICC-RGB makes a very good option.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, I'll do it.. sometime this weekend. I'll attach a note to Mark explaining why the second round with this combination.
Paul and Jimbo,

OK, I'll do it, sometime this weekend. I'll attach a note to Mark explaining why the second round with similar parameters but without the spray.

Paul

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> > **
> >  ...
> >
> > I guess I could submit some test patterns without the spray... but it
> > would take a while to reach 100 Megalux hours again!
> >
> 
> I still might be worth it.  We might see from even initial results what the
> trends are.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Mister Roark and others, I really appreciate your time and help. This is some information to chew on. 
I already had set my mind on the Epson R3000 for Carbon (MIS) b&w printing. But I see a lot of recommendations for using an Epson 1400. While it's a lot cheaper than the R3000 I am a bit worried if the 1400 can handle archival art papers well, especially the heavier papers, as it does not have a front loading paper option. I will most likely be using this printer with matte cotton rag papers like Hahnemuhle and so on. If any of you have a 1400, please share your experience with this printer and fine art papers. Thanks.

I feed 300 - 325 gsm papers into my 1400's without much trouble.  I often
give them a little manual push to get them started, but it works fine.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 5:48 AM, dannyvanrijswijk <nightf3v3r@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Mister Roark and others, I really appreciate your time and help. This is
> some information to chew on.
> I already had set my mind on the Epson R3000 for Carbon (MIS) b&w
> printing. But I see a lot of recommendations for using an Epson 1400. While
> it's a lot cheaper than the R3000 I am a bit worried if the 1400 can handle
> archival art papers well, especially the heavier papers, as it does not
> have a front loading paper option. I will most likely be using this printer
> with matte cotton rag papers like Hahnemuhle and so on. If any of you have
> a 1400, please share your experience with this printer and fine art papers.
> Thanks.
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am currently trying to get to grips with Moab Entrada 300 in my Epson 1400
using QTR or CS4/CS6 and MIS Eb6.

 

The paperfeed with this thick, carton like material works fine most of the
time. I had some issues that were remedied when I had cleaned the paper grip
feeders with some alcohol and cotton.

 

My curves do not come out so good yet. The icc created with QTR-Create-ICC
and the QTR-curves still needs much to be desired, especially in the
midtones. Sometimes images come out almost like solarised.

With the Epson driver and profiles I made printing goes quite well.

 

Waterwin

The Netherlands



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jimbo,

Well, sorry to report that I did try to submit my sample but unfortunately Aardenburg is "on hold" as far as accepting any more samples for now. Apparently they are at capacity but hopeful that things will turn around for them at some point.

Paul

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "jimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

>
> No kidding,
> I would strongly suggest submitting that same images without a coating.. It's an incredible opportunity to evaluate the difference.. so please do it.. I have played with trying and to understand what a coating contributes to longitivity but I'm not a test facility.. but I've been messing with this for several years now.. I just expose pieces to raw sunlight thru the windows in my studio.. it's brutal.. Coatings make a huge difference but what I feel is different about them is that when they reach a point they just stop .. where as with say pigment inks the change is gradual.. not the case with coatings.. they need to be re-applied to continue their effect and when you do that they continue to work work and this part of it we've done it.. 
> But all this stuff is a coating.. and it's build up on top of the art work.. right? We have so much yet to learn..
> 
> jimbo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Paul Roark 
>   To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 10:21 AM
>   Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Carbon printing
> 
> 
>     
>   > **
>   > ...
>   >
>   > I guess I could submit some test patterns without the spray... but it
>   > would take a while to reach 100 Megalux hours again!
>   >
> 
>   I still might be worth it. We might see from even initial results what the
>   trends are.
> 
>   Paul
> 
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>