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Custom inkset - HP Vivera PK mixed with medium

Custom inkset - HP Vivera PK mixed with medium

2013-02-05 by reallybelgium

Hello,

I am a classic dark room printer, taking his first steps in digital printing. I read a lot of information in the last 2 months. I bought an Epson R3000 printer. 

I read about Piezo, MIS and other custom inksets.
I want a high qualty colourless pigment inkset for (semi-)glossy printing.

A professional printer in Holland gave me the advice to mix my own inksets.
(Transport issues, special taxes, price issues when importing, ...)

His advice: mix HP Vivera PK with a medium. (HP Vivera black PK Cartridge, 130 ml mixed with: http://www.octopus-office.de/en/shop/details/c/printer-ink-epson-t0540-t0549/p/ocp-optimizer-for-canon-bc-60-colourless/)

So I want to use this custom inkset, combined with QTR for maximized control
(I found a similar approach in Paul Roarke's doc about HP-C6).

Now I have this information, but I don't know the mixing quantities, and I don't know how much I need for each cartridge in this 9-cartridge printer.

Can someone help me with making up a table/list with an overview of each cartridge and the mixing quantities in these cartridges?
(I know that I have some work to do afterwards with profiling for QTR).

Is the proposed medium (optimiser) a good product? (See previous link)

Thank you very much!

Ben Albu
Belgium

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Custom inkset - HP Vivera PK mixed with medium

2013-02-06 by Paul Roark

reallybelgium <albuben@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> ... Epson R3000 printer.
> ...
> I want a high qualty colourless pigment inkset for (semi-)glossy printing.
>
> A professional printer ... advice: mix HP Vivera PK with a medium.
>
That's good advice.  The z3100/3200 PK carts are not cheap, but when
diluted the costs of the overall inkset are very reasonable.

With the MIS gloss optimizer they are a bit warmer than the HP grays or the
PK diluted with the generic base I use, but HP pigments bronze badly
without a gloss optimizer.  I have never used the OCP optimizer.

If the prints are too cool for you, adding an MIS glossy carbon to the
printer can warm things up nicely.


(HP Vivera black PK Cartridge, 130 ml mixed with:
> http://www.octopus-office.de/en/shop/details/c/printer-ink-epson-t0540-t0549/p/ocp-optimizer-for-canon-bc-60-colourless/
> )
>
> So I want to use this custom inkset, combined with QTR for maximized
> control ...
>

> Now I have this information, but I don't know the mixing quantities, and I
> don't know how much I need for each cartridge in this 9-cartridge printer.
>
Be sure there are third party empty carts available from a reputable
company.  They may tell you what the capacity of the carts is.

I often find it easier to mix the inks in quantities that are large enough
to fill small bottles.  In the US the MIS 4 oz./110 ml wide top bottles are
very convenient.  It makes re-filling and mixing lighter inks sequentially
easier.

Do you have a scales, or are going to use syringes?  If syringes, stay with
simple mixing ratios like 1:2, 1:3, etc.  Mixing the lighter ink from the
next darker may make for better accuracy with syringes.  Using full 10 cc
syringes as counting units simplifies and keeps the errors down.


>
> Can someone help me with making up a table/list with an overview of each
> cartridge and the mixing quantities in these cartridges?
>
The dilution formula or ratio going from dense to lighter that is very
common and I use with scales is 30% dense ink and 70% dilution base.  For
easier syringe mixing, I recommend a 33.3% or 1:2 mixing for ease.  HP is
close to this, as I recall.  As long as you are consistent, the exact
percentage is not that important.  This is the ratio you can use to go down
different progressions of ink densities that will make up a partitioned
channel (what I can a channel, anyway).

If you have all HP dilutions in the printer and no toners (including one or
two warm carbon inks) you'll have more than enough inks.   Maybe for
simplicity and to be sure you'll be happy with the HP tone you ought to
start with a K and 5 grays.  You might want to just put your clear base in
2 spots to hold them for now.

PK,
33.3% PK (1:2),
20% PK (1:4 mix),
11.1% PK (1:2 mix of the 33.3%),
6.67% PK (1:2 mix of the 20%)
3.7% PK (1:2 mix of the 11%)

The first 5 of the above is what I used for the Noritsu NK5 inkset <
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-Noritsu-5K-Plus.pdf>.  The partition
of those inks looks as follows:
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/NK5-Partition.pdf
There is room to add another light ink -- like the 3.7% suggested above.

While this prints fine, you may later want to change it into a
multi-channel or multi-profile set so you get more overlaps.

I just suggest this as a rather generic approach.  It usually works well.
With QTR, the inks can be put anywhere.  To keep the Epson drive option
open, I'd have these in the following positions:

PK = K
33.3% = C
20% = M
11.1% = LC
6.67% = LM
3.7% PK = Y.

(However, the Epson driver will not work with clear ink in the LLK-LK
spots.  This is just a starting place.)

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Custom inkset - HP Vivera PK mixed with medium

2013-02-06 by Ernst Dinkla

On 02/06/2013 04:12 AM, Paul Roark wrote:

> That's good advice. The z3100/3200 PK carts are not cheap, but when
> diluted the costs of the overall inkset are very reasonable.
>
> With the MIS gloss optimizer they are a bit warmer than the HP grays or the
> PK diluted with the generic base I use, but HP pigments bronze badly
> without a gloss optimizer. I have never used the OCP optimizer.
>
> If the prints are too cool for you, adding an MIS glossy carbon to the
> printer can warm things up nicely.

My rough estimation has been 10 to 20 Eurocents of ink per A3 print with 
a mix like that, number of dilutions hardly play a role on that 
estimation, the ink medium is 1.5 cents per ml, the density is made with 
the black ink in all grades and that one is 46 cents a ML including VAT 
in the 130ML cart size.

The mixes I made with OCP gloss enhancer and HP PK stay neutral and 
deliver a better gloss than the HP Vivera grey inks in my Z3100/Z3200. 
For thermal heads though so I used the OCP gloss enhancer replacement 
for Kodak printers, most likely more fluid than the Epson version 
mentioned here. The last should be used for Epsons though, rheology will 
fit the pi\ufffdzo heads better.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Custom inkset - HP Vivera PK mixed with medium

2013-02-06 by Ben Albu

Hello,

Thank you for hour help.

Ok, I guess the OCP optimiser is a good option (Ernst has good experience
with it)

The cartridges I wanted to use:
http://www.octopus-office.de/en/shop/details/c/refillable-ink-cartridges-for-epson-t1571-t1579/p/fill-in-patronensatz-fuer-epson-stylus-photo-r-3000-mit-auto-reset-chips/
Do you think they are ok?

I see 2 potential setups:

Setup 1
---------
The HP Vivera PK + optimiser option.
Question: Only 6 slots are filled (1 PK and 5 greys), the other 3 I should
fill with optimiser?! What about filling these with Eboni-6 (mixed in
different dilutions) to add some warmth if necessary.

Setup 2
---------
I read about your 'EbHP 2013 Ink Arrangement'.
Could this be a potential setup for the Epson R3000?
In this setup you have 6 slots filled with Eboni-6 and 2 slots filled with
HP Vivera PK
The last empty slot can be filled with optimiser I guess?

For setup 1, and related to the dilutions:
----------------------------------------------
Your advice is to work with 10 ml syringes. I think I will buy the 10 ml
syringes and some 50 ml syringes. The 10 ml syringes are partinioned in 1
ml steps, so I can easily work per ml.

I made a custom table, based on your advice.
Let's say I use the 130 ml HP Vivera PK cartridge, and my printer
cartridges are 26 ml each.. I'll use 110 ml bottles and fill them with 100
ml diluted inks. (This makes 1 time mixing, and I can refill my catridges 4
times with this setup... (4x25ml))

The table:






As you can see, my real % are close to your advice. But you said that they
don't have to be exact the same... (Consistency is the most important).

Ok, like this?

And I fill the rest of the cartridges (3) with OPC optimiser?! Or do I fill
them with (diluted) Eboni-6?

Thank you!

Ben Albu









On Wednesday, February 6, 2013, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> **
>
>
> On 02/06/2013 04:12 AM, Paul Roark wrote:
>
> > That's good advice. The z3100/3200 PK carts are not cheap, but when
> > diluted the costs of the overall inkset are very reasonable.
> >
> > With the MIS gloss optimizer they are a bit warmer than the HP grays or
> the
> > PK diluted with the generic base I use, but HP pigments bronze badly
> > without a gloss optimizer. I have never used the OCP optimizer.
> >
> > If the prints are too cool for you, adding an MIS glossy carbon to the
> > printer can warm things up nicely.
>
> My rough estimation has been 10 to 20 Eurocents of ink per A3 print with
> a mix like that, number of dilutions hardly play a role on that
> estimation, the ink medium is 1.5 cents per ml, the density is made with
> the black ink in all grades and that one is 46 cents a ML including VAT
> in the 130ML cart size.
>
> The mixes I made with OCP gloss enhancer and HP PK stay neutral and
> deliver a better gloss than the HP Vivera grey inks in my Z3100/Z3200.
> For thermal heads though so I used the OCP gloss enhancer replacement
> for Kodak printers, most likely more fluid than the Epson version
> mentioned here. The last should be used for Epsons though, rheology will
> fit the pi�zo heads better.
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla
>
> http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
> December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Custom inkset - HP Vivera PK mixed with medium

2013-02-06 by Ben Albu

The table I wanted to show:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/38wwhb0x9d11a21/IMG_0792.JPG


On Wednesday, February 6, 2013, Ben Albu wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Thank you for hour help.
>
... trimmed by moderator - please trim your posts

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Custom inkset - HP Vivera PK mixed with medium

2013-02-06 by reallybelgium

Hello,

Thank you for hour help.

Ok, I guess the OCP optimiser is a good option (Ernst has good experience with it)

The cartridges I wanted to use: http://www.octopus-office.de/en/shop/details/c/refillable-ink-cartridges-for-epson-t1571-t1579/p/fill-in-patronensatz-fuer-epson-stylus-photo-r-3000-mit-auto-reset-chips/
Do you think they are ok?

I see 2 potential setups:

Setup 1
---------
The HP Vivera PK + optimiser option.
Question: Only 6 slots are filled (1 PK and 5 greys), the other 3 I should fill with optimiser?! What about filling these with Eboni-6 (mixed in different dilutions) to add some warmth if necessary.

Setup 2
---------
I read about your 'EbHP 2013 Ink Arrangement'. 
Could this be a potential setup for the Epson R3000? 
In this setup you have 6 slots filled with Eboni-6 and 2 slots filled with HP Vivera PK
The last empty slot can be filled with optimiser I guess?

For setup 1, and related to the dilutions:
----------------------------------------------
Your advice is to work with 10 ml syringes. I think I will buy the 10 ml syringes and some 50 ml syringes. The 10 ml syringes are partinioned in 1 ml steps, so I can easily work per ml.

I made a custom table, based on your advice.
Let's say I use the 130 ml HP Vivera PK cartridge, and my printer cartridges are 26 ml each.. I'll use 110 ml bottles and fill them with 100 ml diluted inks. (This makes 1 time mixing, and I can refill my catridges 4 times with this setup... (4x25ml))

The table:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/38wwhb0x9d11a21/IMG_0792.JPG

As you can see, my real % are close to your advice. But you said that they don't have to be exact the same... (Consistency is the most important).

Ok, like this?

And I fill the rest of the cartridges (3) with OPC optimiser?! Or do I fill them with (diluted) Eboni-6?

Thank you!

Ben Albu











--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark  wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> reallybelgium  wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > ... Epson R3000 printer.
> > ...
> > I want a high qualty colourless pigment inkset for (semi-)glossy printing.
> >
> > A professional printer ... advice: mix HP Vivera PK with a medium.
> >
> That's good advice.  The z3100/3200 PK carts are not cheap, but when
> diluted the costs of the overall inkset are very reasonable.
> 
> With the MIS gloss optimizer they are a bit warmer than the HP grays or the
> PK diluted with the generic base I use, but HP pigments bronze badly
> without a gloss optimizer.  I have never used the OCP optimizer.
> 
> If the prints are too cool for you, adding an MIS glossy carbon to the
> printer can warm things up nicely.
> 
> 
> (HP Vivera black PK Cartridge, 130 ml mixed with:
> > http://www.octopus-office.de/en/shop/details/c/printer-ink-epson-t0540-t0549/p/ocp-optimizer-for-canon-bc-60-colourless/
> > )
> >
> > So I want to use this custom inkset, combined with QTR for maximized
> > control ...
> >
> 
> > Now I have this information, but I don't know the mixing quantities, and I
> > don't know how much I need for each cartridge in this 9-cartridge printer.
> >
> Be sure there are third party empty carts available from a reputable
> company.  They may tell you what the capacity of the carts is.
> 
> I often find it easier to mix the inks in quantities that are large enough
> to fill small bottles.  In the US the MIS 4 oz./110 ml wide top bottles are
> very convenient.  It makes re-filling and mixing lighter inks sequentially
> easier.
> 
> Do you have a scales, or are going to use syringes?  If syringes, stay with
> simple mixing ratios like 1:2, 1:3, etc.  Mixing the lighter ink from the
> next darker may make for better accuracy with syringes.  Using full 10 cc
> syringes as counting units simplifies and keeps the errors down.
> 
> 
> >
> > Can someone help me with making up a table/list with an overview of each
> > cartridge and the mixing quantities in these cartridges?
> >
> The dilution formula or ratio going from dense to lighter that is very
> common and I use with scales is 30% dense ink and 70% dilution base.  For
> easier syringe mixing, I recommend a 33.3% or 1:2 mixing for ease.  HP is
> close to this, as I recall.  As long as you are consistent, the exact
> percentage is not that important.  This is the ratio you can use to go down
> different progressions of ink densities that will make up a partitioned
> channel (what I can a channel, anyway).
> 
> If you have all HP dilutions in the printer and no toners (including one or
> two warm carbon inks) you'll have more than enough inks.   Maybe for
> simplicity and to be sure you'll be happy with the HP tone you ought to
> start with a K and 5 grays.  You might want to just put your clear base in
> 2 spots to hold them for now.
> 
> PK,
> 33.3% PK (1:2),
> 20% PK (1:4 mix),
> 11.1% PK (1:2 mix of the 33.3%),
> 6.67% PK (1:2 mix of the 20%)
> 3.7% PK (1:2 mix of the 11%)
> 
> The first 5 of the above is what I used for the Noritsu NK5 inkset <
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-Noritsu-5K-Plus.pdf>.  The partition
> of those inks looks as follows:
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/NK5-Partition.pdf
> There is room to add another light ink -- like the 3.7% suggested above.
> 
> While this prints fine, you may later want to change it into a
> multi-channel or multi-profile set so you get more overlaps.
> 
> I just suggest this as a rather generic approach.  It usually works well.
> With QTR, the inks can be put anywhere.  To keep the Epson drive option
> open, I'd have these in the following positions:
> 
> PK = K
> 33.3% = C
> 20% = M
> 11.1% = LC
> 6.67% = LM
> 3.7% PK = Y.
> 
> (However, the Epson driver will not work with clear ink in the LLK-LK
> spots.  This is just a starting place.)
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Custom inkset - HP Vivera PK mixed with medium

2013-02-12 by Paul Roark

Ben, "reallybelgium" <albuben@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> ...
>
> The cartridges I wanted to use:
> http://www.octopus-office.de/en/shop/details/c/refillable-ink-cartridges-for-epson-t1571-t1579/p/fill-in-patronensatz-fuer-epson-stylus-photo-r-3000-mit-auto-reset-chips/
> Do you think they are ok?
>
I have no way to judge the quality of carts I have not used.  Empty,
re-fillable, auto-reset carts are the right product, however.


> I see 2 potential setups:
>
> Setup 1
> ---------
> The HP Vivera PK + optimiser option.
> Question: Only 6 slots are filled (1 PK and 5 greys), the other 3 I should
> fill with optimiser?! What about filling these with Eboni-6 (mixed in
> different dilutions) to add some warmth if necessary.
>
Carts must have something in them; they can't be empty/dry.  I only
suggested the gloss optimizer as a holder that has no color to it (easier
to later put in what you want).  The reason for this is that I think you
may want to be able to warm the print tone, but you will not know that
until after you try the HP pigments on your papers of choice.

Do not use Eboni-6 in the dilute positions.  They are for matte paper only.
 I believe your target papers are glossy.  The warm carbons I use and
recommend for glossy printing are the MIS K4 LK and LLK <
http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_k4.cfm>.  I don't know if
MIS/inksupply.comor Image Specialists have these inks available in
Europe.

For the MK position, MIS Eboni MK is what I use.  Again, I don't know about
the practicality of this in Europe.  If you want to print on matte paper,
you'll need some MK.  If you never want to print on matte paper, a clear
fluid might make sense in the MK position.



> Setup 2
> ---------
> I read about your 'EbHP 2013 Ink Arrangement'.
> Could this be a potential setup for the Epson R3000?
> In this setup you have 6 slots filled with Eboni-6 and 2 slots filled with
> HP Vivera PK
> The last empty slot can be filled with optimiser I guess?
>

The Eboni-6 and HP  setup I currently have in my 7800
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHP-2013.pdf>
is for matte paper only.  Eboni will not stick on glossy paper.


> For setup 1, and related to the dilutions:
> ----------------------------------------------
> Your advice is to work with 10 ml syringes. I think I will buy the 10 ml
> syringes and some 50 ml syringes. The 10 ml syringes are partitioned in 1
> ml steps, so I can easily work per ml.
>
It's hard to get much accuracy in a syringe at small volumes.


>
> I made a custom table, based on your advice.
> Let's say I use the 130 ml HP Vivera PK cartridge, and my printer
> cartridges are 26 ml each.. I'll use 110 ml bottles and fill them with 100
> ml diluted inks. (This makes 1 time mixing, and I can refill my catridges 4
> times with this setup... (4x25ml))
>
> The table:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/38wwhb0x9d11a21/IMG_0792.JPG
>

I have not checked all the math, but the percentages are calculated
incorrectly.  When I refer to a "33.3%" mix I mean that the concentrated
ink (PK) is 1/3 or 33.3% of the total, final mix.  This is also referred to
as a 1:2 mixing ratio.  So, whatever your final volume is, divide it by 3.
 That is the amount of the PK.  For example, to make 100 ml, I use 33.3% PK
and 66.7% clear dilution base.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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