QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hi, I have just installed the Neitral K7 inks on my epson 9600 using windows with QTR, the 
resulting prints look very flat and i am not sure what is wrong. I have tried increasing the 
contrast in Photoshop which works but i would have thought that the prints would look a lot 
better.
I have followed Jon Cone's instructions to the t but i am stuck.....please help...
thanks
Cam

Same here, installed the K7 inkset on a 9600 three days ago. Quite
dissapointing image dynamics and dmax. It all looks rather flat and
liveless when compared to an ABW print of the same image, although
resolution and smoothness are outstanding under a loupe. Immediately
after printing i get a 1.38, six hours later the same print measures
at 1.52 with a Techcon RT-112 on PhotoRag Bright White. About the same
on Innova Smooth Cotton. For comparison i have here a K7 promo sample
printed on Smooth Cotton by IJM/Cone that measures at 1.64 has great
dynamics and looks like it's a completely different inkset.
Lately i have heard some people complaining on the lists about flat K7
print results. Have there been any manufacturing issues with the
Neutral K7?



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "nevillelestrange" <cam@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I have just installed the Neitral K7 inks on my epson 9600 using
windows with QTR, the 
> resulting prints look very flat and i am not sure what is wrong. I
have tried increasing the 
> contrast in Photoshop which works but i would have thought that the
prints would look a lot 
> better.
> I have followed Jon Cone's instructions to the t but i am
stuck.....please help...

> thanks
> Cam
>

I have contacted Roy Harrington and Cone Editions but I have not had any luck, the inks 
are very disappointing, I was getting better results using the Ultrachrome inks....What 
now....?
They claim this is a plug and play system, doesn't seem that way. I agree that resolution 
and smoothness are amazing but the midtones look awful and flat unless you bump the 
image over the top in photoshop and then you start to get half decent results...




--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "silviapestalozzicolor" <airplaygraphics@...> 
wrote:

>
> Same here, installed the K7 inkset on a 9600 three days ago. Quite
> dissapointing image dynamics and dmax. It all looks rather flat and
> liveless when compared to an ABW print of the same image, although
> resolution and smoothness are outstanding under a loupe. Immediately
> after printing i get a 1.38, six hours later the same print measures
> at 1.52 with a Techcon RT-112 on PhotoRag Bright White. About the same
> on Innova Smooth Cotton. For comparison i have here a K7 promo sample
> printed on Smooth Cotton by IJM/Cone that measures at 1.64 has great
> dynamics and looks like it's a completely different inkset.
> Lately i have heard some people complaining on the lists about flat K7
> print results. Have there been any manufacturing issues with the
> Neutral K7?
> 
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "nevillelestrange" <cam@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, I have just installed the Neitral K7 inks on my epson 9600 using
> windows with QTR, the 
> > resulting prints look very flat and i am not sure what is wrong. I
> have tried increasing the 
> > contrast in Photoshop which works but i would have thought that the
> prints would look a lot 
> > better.
> > I have followed Jon Cone's instructions to the t but i am
> stuck.....please help...
> > thanks
> > Cam
> >
>

Im using the NK6 in two 7000 printers. My damx on Photorag is 1.68-.69
 and 1.67 on Museum Etching and William Turner. That is with both the
neutral and the sepia inkset. In comparision, Ultrachrome K2 (with the
same MK as K3 inkset) is measuring 1.65 out of QTR driven 9600. My 10K
is loaded with the NK6 now and is about to be set up with Studio Print
because QTR is not working on it. But the 10K just printing the
Neutral inks of out an RGB profiled workflow measures 1.66 (which is
not good enough for me). When it is linearized with a rip and black
point partitioned, it will do better, hopefully equaling the 7000s.

John




--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "silviapestalozzicolor"
<airplaygraphics@...> wrote:

>
> Same here, installed the K7 inkset on a 9600 three days ago. Quite
> dissapointing image dynamics and dmax. It all looks rather flat and
> liveless when compared to an ABW print of the same image, although
> resolution and smoothness are outstanding under a loupe. Immediately
> after printing i get a 1.38, six hours later the same print measures
> at 1.52 with a Techcon RT-112 on PhotoRag Bright White. About the same
> on Innova Smooth Cotton. For comparison i have here a K7 promo sample
> printed on Smooth Cotton by IJM/Cone that measures at 1.64 has great
> dynamics and looks like it's a completely different inkset.
> Lately i have heard some people complaining on the lists about flat K7
> print results. Have there been any manufacturing issues with the
> Neutral K7?
> 
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "nevillelestrange" <cam@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, I have just installed the Neitral K7 inks on my epson 9600 using
> windows with QTR, the 
> > resulting prints look very flat and i am not sure what is wrong. I
> have tried increasing the 
> > contrast in Photoshop which works but i would have thought that the
> prints would look a lot 
> > better.
> > I have followed Jon Cone's instructions to the t but i am
> stuck.....please help...
> > thanks
> > Cam
> >
>

silviapestalozzicolor wrote:
> Immediately after printing i get a 1.38, six hours later the same print measures at 1.52 with a Techcon RT-112 on PhotoRag Bright White. About the same on Innova Smooth Cotton. For comparison i have here a K7 promo sample printed on Smooth Cotton by IJM/Cone that measures at 1.64 has great dynamics and looks like it's a completely different inkset. Lately i have heard some people complaining on the lists about flat K7 print results. Have there been any manufacturing issues with the Neutral K7?
It's not the inks. It's just inexperience. The Cone inks are well known 
for this. It's even picked up a name -- I've heard it called "digital 
dry down." What happen is, as the glycols and glycerins in the ink 
carrier evaporate (much slower than the water) the inks get darker. All 
of the inks. Clearly the effect is most dramatic in the black ink which 
can increase in Dmax by a stop. Some see more. But the effect seems to 
be non-linear over the range from white to black.

The way I deal with this is to dry work prints with a hand held hair 
dryer. High fan, low heat. If you put a hand on the underside you can 
feel the stages - first the water goes, then the glycols. You can smell 
them coming off too. You can dry a print like this days later and still 
smell the glycols coming off.

I strongly recommend that any linearization targets be dried with a hair 
dryer before measurements are taken.

Interestingly, if you'll dry the prints with a hair dryer, you are also 
defeating the out-gassing problem that all pigment inksets made to date 
seem to share. I've made a print, dried it and framed it, print to 
framed and on the wall in an hour. No outgassing. A print that I framed 
six weeks after printing (but without drying with a hair dryer) 
outgassed all over the glazing the next day. Hmmm.....
--
Bruce Watson

I don't have anything to do with the inks themselves so its hard for me 
to comment
on them.  If you can get "half decent" results by editing maybe its a 
matter of what
embedded profile you are using in your datafile.   It doesn't sound 
like a simple
"ink doesn't get onto the paper" problem.   I imagine you aren't using 
color
management in either ABW-UC or QTR-K7 so the fact that things are 
different is
not too unusual.   Two methods are usually different and if you 
optimized a file
for one it'll be worse on the other.

What embedded profile is in the original file?  Are you changing it to 
gamma 2.2?
How?  Assign Profile or Convert to Profile?

Roy

On Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 03:24  PM, nevillelestrange wrote:

> I have contacted Roy Harrington and Cone Editions but I have not had 
> any luck, the inks
> are very disappointing, I was getting better results using the 
> Ultrachrome inks....What
> now....?
> They claim this is a plug and play system, doesn't seem that way. I 
> agree that resolution
> and smoothness are amazing but the midtones look awful and flat unless 
> you bump the
> image over the top in photoshop and then you start to get half decent 
> results...
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "silviapestalozzicolor" 
> <airplaygraphics@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Same here, installed the K7 inkset on a 9600 three days ago. Quite
>> dissapointing image dynamics and dmax. It all looks rather flat and
>> liveless when compared to an ABW print of the same image, although
>> resolution and smoothness are outstanding under a loupe. Immediately
>> after printing i get a 1.38, six hours later the same print measures
>> at 1.52 with a Techcon RT-112 on PhotoRag Bright White. About the same
>> on Innova Smooth Cotton. For comparison i have here a K7 promo sample
>> printed on Smooth Cotton by IJM/Cone that measures at 1.64 has great
>> dynamics and looks like it's a completely different inkset.
>> Lately i have heard some people complaining on the lists about flat K7
>> print results. Have there been any manufacturing issues with the
>> Neutral K7?
>>
>>
>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "nevillelestrange" <cam@> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, I have just installed the Neitral K7 inks on my epson 9600 using
>> windows with QTR, the
>>> resulting prints look very flat and i am not sure what is wrong. I
>> have tried increasing the
>>> contrast in Photoshop which works but i would have thought that the
>> prints would look a lot
>>> better.
>>> I have followed Jon Cone's instructions to the t but i am
>> stuck.....please help...
>>> thanks
>>> Cam
>>>
>>
>
-
Roy Harrington
roy@...
Black & White Photo Gallery
http://www.harrington.com

Hi Roy, We are converting the file in photoshop by using 'Assign Profile'. 



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Roy Harrington <roy@...> wrote:

>
> I don't have anything to do with the inks themselves so its hard for me 
> to comment
> on them.  If you can get "half decent" results by editing maybe its a 
> matter of what
> embedded profile you are using in your datafile.   It doesn't sound 
> like a simple
> "ink doesn't get onto the paper" problem.   I imagine you aren't using 
> color
> management in either ABW-UC or QTR-K7 so the fact that things are 
> different is
> not too unusual.   Two methods are usually different and if you 
> optimized a file
> for one it'll be worse on the other.
> 
> What embedded profile is in the original file?  Are you changing it to 
> gamma 2.2?
> How?  Assign Profile or Convert to Profile?
> 
> Roy
> 
> On Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 03:24  PM, nevillelestrange wrote:
> 
> > I have contacted Roy Harrington and Cone Editions but I have not had 
> > any luck, the inks
> > are very disappointing, I was getting better results using the 
> > Ultrachrome inks....What
> > now....?
> > They claim this is a plug and play system, doesn't seem that way. I 
> > agree that resolution
> > and smoothness are amazing but the midtones look awful and flat unless 
> > you bump the
> > image over the top in photoshop and then you start to get half decent 
> > results...
> >
> >
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "silviapestalozzicolor" 
> > <airplaygraphics@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Same here, installed the K7 inkset on a 9600 three days ago. Quite
> >> dissapointing image dynamics and dmax. It all looks rather flat and
> >> liveless when compared to an ABW print of the same image, although
> >> resolution and smoothness are outstanding under a loupe. Immediately
> >> after printing i get a 1.38, six hours later the same print measures
> >> at 1.52 with a Techcon RT-112 on PhotoRag Bright White. About the same
> >> on Innova Smooth Cotton. For comparison i have here a K7 promo sample
> >> printed on Smooth Cotton by IJM/Cone that measures at 1.64 has great
> >> dynamics and looks like it's a completely different inkset.
> >> Lately i have heard some people complaining on the lists about flat K7
> >> print results. Have there been any manufacturing issues with the
> >> Neutral K7?
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "nevillelestrange" <cam@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi, I have just installed the Neitral K7 inks on my epson 9600 using
> >> windows with QTR, the
> >>> resulting prints look very flat and i am not sure what is wrong. I
> >> have tried increasing the
> >>> contrast in Photoshop which works but i would have thought that the
> >> prints would look a lot
> >>> better.
> >>> I have followed Jon Cone's instructions to the t but i am
> >> stuck.....please help...
> >>> thanks
> >>> Cam
> >>>
> >>
> >
> -
> Roy Harrington
> roy@...
> Black & White Photo Gallery
> http://www.harrington.com
>

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "nevillelestrange" <cam@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Roy, We are converting the file in photoshop by using 'Assign Profile'. 

assigning is not converting, two completely different things. If you want to convert, you use 
the convert command.
Tyler

That's likely the problem then.  Assign just throws away the old profile
so all the values defined by the old profile are no longer there.   If 
you
looked at the screen when you did this you probably saw the image 
change.

Use Convert to Profile and you should get better results.

Roy

On Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 06:53  PM, nevillelestrange wrote:

> Hi Roy, We are converting the file in photoshop by using 'Assign 
> Profile'.
>
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Roy Harrington <roy@...> wrote:
>>
>> I don't have anything to do with the inks themselves so its hard for 
>> me
>> to comment
>> on them.  If you can get "half decent" results by editing maybe its a
>> matter of what
>> embedded profile you are using in your datafile.   It doesn't sound
>> like a simple
>> "ink doesn't get onto the paper" problem.   I imagine you aren't using
>> color
>> management in either ABW-UC or QTR-K7 so the fact that things are
>> different is
>> not too unusual.   Two methods are usually different and if you
>> optimized a file
>> for one it'll be worse on the other.
>>
>> What embedded profile is in the original file?  Are you changing it to
>> gamma 2.2?
>> How?  Assign Profile or Convert to Profile?
>>
>> Roy
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 03:24  PM, nevillelestrange wrote:
>>
>>> I have contacted Roy Harrington and Cone Editions but I have not had
>>> any luck, the inks
>>> are very disappointing, I was getting better results using the
>>> Ultrachrome inks....What
>>> now....?
>>> They claim this is a plug and play system, doesn't seem that way. I
>>> agree that resolution
>>> and smoothness are amazing but the midtones look awful and flat 
>>> unless
>>> you bump the
>>> image over the top in photoshop and then you start to get half decent
>>> results...
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "silviapestalozzicolor"
>>> <airplaygraphics@>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Same here, installed the K7 inkset on a 9600 three days ago. Quite
>>>> dissapointing image dynamics and dmax. It all looks rather flat and
>>>> liveless when compared to an ABW print of the same image, although
>>>> resolution and smoothness are outstanding under a loupe. Immediately
>>>> after printing i get a 1.38, six hours later the same print measures
>>>> at 1.52 with a Techcon RT-112 on PhotoRag Bright White. About the 
>>>> same
>>>> on Innova Smooth Cotton. For comparison i have here a K7 promo 
>>>> sample
>>>> printed on Smooth Cotton by IJM/Cone that measures at 1.64 has great
>>>> dynamics and looks like it's a completely different inkset.
>>>> Lately i have heard some people complaining on the lists about flat 
>>>> K7
>>>> print results. Have there been any manufacturing issues with the
>>>> Neutral K7?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "nevillelestrange" <cam@> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, I have just installed the Neitral K7 inks on my epson 9600 
>>>>> using
>>>> windows with QTR, the
>>>>> resulting prints look very flat and i am not sure what is wrong. I
>>>> have tried increasing the
>>>>> contrast in Photoshop which works but i would have thought that the
>>>> prints would look a lot
>>>>> better.
>>>>> I have followed Jon Cone's instructions to the t but i am
>>>> stuck.....please help...
>>>>> thanks
>>>>> Cam
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> -
>> Roy Harrington
>> roy@...
>> Black & White Photo Gallery
>> http://www.harrington.com
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
-
Roy Harrington
roy@...
Black & White Photo Gallery
http://www.harrington.com

Sorry for the stupid question, just to get the whole
picture,
did you create QTR curves for your printer-ink-paper
combination ? What was the print of the 21-step wedge
looking like after linearization ?

Best,
Manuel

--- silviapestalozzicolor
<airplaygraphics@...> ha scritto:

> Same here, installed the K7 inkset on a 9600 three
> days ago. Quite
> dissapointing image dynamics and dmax. It all looks
> rather flat and
> liveless when compared to an ABW print of the same
> image, although
> resolution and smoothness are outstanding under a
> loupe. Immediately
> after printing i get a 1.38, six hours later the
> same print measures
> at 1.52 with a Techcon RT-112 on PhotoRag Bright
> White. About the same
> on Innova Smooth Cotton. For comparison i have here
> a K7 promo sample
> printed on Smooth Cotton by IJM/Cone that measures
> at 1.64 has great
> dynamics and looks like it's a completely different
> inkset.
> Lately i have heard some people complaining on the
> lists about flat K7
> print results. Have there been any manufacturing
> issues with the
> Neutral K7?
> 
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com,
> "nevillelestrange" <cam@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, I have just installed the Neitral K7 inks on
> my epson 9600 using
> windows with QTR, the 
> > resulting prints look very flat and i am not sure
> what is wrong. I
> have tried increasing the 
> > contrast in Photoshop which works but i would have
> thought that the
> prints would look a lot 
> > better.
> > I have followed Jon Cone's instructions to the t
> but i am
> stuck.....please help...
> > thanks
> > Cam
> >
> 
> 
> 



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