QTR-Quadtone RIP

I do not understand why one would need to use QTR with
the piezography inks since the piezography inks come
with ICC profiles which do an excellent job.  Can
someone clarify this for me?  Plus, using the ICC
profiles means also using the epson printer drivers,
not having to convert the file to TIFF but rather keep
it in native PSD photoshop, and, if already converted
to Lab color, do not  have to reconvert to color or
monochrome color space.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael Tiktinsky 
<mt_photographer@s...> wrote:
> I do not understand why one would need to use QTR with
> the piezography inks since the piezography inks come
> with ICC profiles which do an excellent job.  Can
> someone clarify this for me?  Plus, using the ICC
> profiles means also using the epson printer drivers,
> not having to convert the file to TIFF but rather keep
> it in native PSD photoshop, and, if already converted
> to Lab color, do not  have to reconvert to color or
> monochrome color space.

I started out using the ICC profiles with piezo inks in an 1160.  
The profiles were far from "excellent" with my printer with blocked 
shadows and poor transitions.  I then upgraded to the iQuads which 
was an improvement but still not perfect.  I still had blocked 
shadows and I was at the mercy of whoever was making my profile.  
When I got a 4000 I could no longer use ICC or iQuads so I opted for 
QTR.  Now I am in control of how the inks are laid down and can 
tweak to my heart's desire.  And my prints are better than they ever 
were before.

With the release of the K7 inks, I hope to be able to vary my tones 
from carbon sepia to neutral by using QTR, customized to however I 
want them to look.  And I can use whatever paper I want, not just 
the ones that have an ICC profile made for them.

Hope that explains why I made the switch.  

Jenny

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael Tiktinsky 
<mt_photographer@s...> wrote:
> I do not understand why one would need to use QTR with
> the piezography inks since the piezography inks come
> with ICC profiles which do an excellent job.  Can
> someone clarify this for me?  Plus, using the ICC
> profiles means also using the epson printer drivers,
> not having to convert the file to TIFF but rather keep
> it in native PSD photoshop, and, if already converted
> to Lab color, do not  have to reconvert to color or
> monochrome color space.

Michael,

Because, and this is the purpose of QTR, the profiles shipped with 
PiezoBW ICC are generic. You have the possibility to ask (pay) for 
custom made one that will then bring out the same results. I have not 
tested this service, but having PiezoBW ICC, the output with the 
generic profile is really, but really poor. Well, like canned color 
profiles are out of the box. The grayscale is not smooth at all.

The use of ICC IMHO in a great thing under windows, all in done in 
PS. But again you have to get custom made profiles that add $150 for 
3 of them. I don't like this idea : 1) because the kit is already 
well priced, 2) because if you want more than 3 papers you add again 
$150 3)because when you do quadtone printing you often do also color 
prints and usely have some profiler available you would like to be 
able to use to get the most out of your equipment.

Only 2 options left : QTR or tweaking the profile in the editing part 
of your profiler (often based on curves, they are RVB, so you go a 
bit in the Paul Roark direction too). It's a pure personal choice 
also also OS dependent.

Piezotone is meant to deliver pure BW prints wuth ni metamerism (but 
only on matte papers), not to deliver a linear output.

Olivier

Hi Jenny,

The K7 set is a neutral set not a toning set. All 7
inks are the same tone. The goal is smooth tonal
transition not tonal variation.

Hope this helps,

Guy
--- byushooter <jellerbe@...> wrote:



> With the release of the K7 inks, I hope to be able
> to vary my tones 
> from carbon sepia to neutral by using QTR,
> customized to however I 
> want them to look.  And I can use whatever paper I
> want, not just 
> the ones that have an ICC profile made for them.
> 
> Hope that explains why I made the switch.  
> 
> Jenny
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>     QuadtoneRIP-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 


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--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, guy washburn <guido02474@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Hi Jenny,
> 
> The K7 set is a neutral set not a toning set. All 7
> inks are the same tone. The goal is smooth tonal
> transition not tonal variation.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Guy

Guy, I plan to use carbon sepia on one side of my 4000 and 3 of the 
K7 inks on the other side.  So, for me, it will act as a sort of 
tonal variation.  I will be able to print solely with the carbon 
sepia or blend in the neutral tones in different quantities to 
reduce the amount of carbon sepia tone.  It was at Jon Cone's 
suggestion that I give this a try so I think it will be doable.

Jenny

---- Original Message ----- 

From: "odesmais" <odesmais@...>
To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:57 PM
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography

> Because, and this is the purpose of QTR, the profiles shipped with
> PiezoBW ICC are generic. You have the possibility to ask (pay) for
> custom made one that will then bring out the same results. I have not
> tested this service, but having PiezoBW ICC, the output with the
> generic profile is really, but really poor. Well, like canned color
> profiles are out of the box. The grayscale is not smooth at all.

What printer are you using then?

> The use of ICC IMHO in a great thing under windows, all in done in
> PS. But again you have to get custom made profiles that add $150 for
> 3 of them. I don't like this idea : 1) because the kit is already
> well priced, 2) because if you want more than 3 papers you add again
> $150 3)because when you do quadtone printing you often do also color
> prints and usely have some profiler available you would like to be
> able to use to get the most out of your equipment.

If you don't have custom made profiles how on earth do you expect to get the 
best out of any printer/ink combination

These inks are going to be for those among us who wish to produce the very 
best best, which by definition means profiling one's own particular printer.
If you can't or won't equip yourself with a spectrophotometer and a 
linearisation capable RIP then you cannot be a serious B&W man.

Richard 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" <jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, guy washburn <guido02474@y...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Jenny,
> > 
> > The K7 set is a neutral set not a toning set. All 7
> > inks are the same tone. The goal is smooth tonal
> > transition not tonal variation.
> > 
> > Hope this helps,
> > 
> > Guy
> 
> Guy, I plan to use carbon sepia on one side of my 4000 and 3 of the 
> K7 inks on the other side.  So, for me, it will act as a sort of 
> tonal variation.  I will be able to print solely with the carbon 
> sepia or blend in the neutral tones in different quantities to 
> reduce the amount of carbon sepia tone.  It was at Jon Cone's 
> suggestion that I give this a try so I think it will be doable.
> 
> Jenny

I think this is a nice alternative to the full K7 inkset.  You could also use
any pair of the standard piezotone sets. This way you can get a
nice variable tone capability.

Roy

I work on a 1280.
I do have a spectro.
If YOU know how do produce real BW profiles comparable to the Piezo 
ones which are RVB but output grayscale with a quadtone printer 
without any RIP straight out of PS on a PC, please share it with 
those of us who are also trying this way to produce BW prints.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett" <richard@r...> 
wrote:
> ---- Original Message ----- 
> From: "odesmais" <odesmais@y...>
> To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:57 PM
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography
> 
> > Because, and this is the purpose of QTR, the profiles shipped with
> > PiezoBW ICC are generic. You have the possibility to ask (pay) for
> > custom made one that will then bring out the same results. I have 
not
> > tested this service, but having PiezoBW ICC, the output with the
> > generic profile is really, but really poor. Well, like canned 
color
> > profiles are out of the box. The grayscale is not smooth at all.
> 
> What printer are you using then?
> 
> > The use of ICC IMHO in a great thing under windows, all in done in
> > PS. But again you have to get custom made profiles that add $150 
for
> > 3 of them. I don't like this idea : 1) because the kit is already
> > well priced, 2) because if you want more than 3 papers you add 
again
> > $150 3)because when you do quadtone printing you often do also 
color
> > prints and usely have some profiler available you would like to be
> > able to use to get the most out of your equipment.
> 
> If you don't have custom made profiles how on earth do you expect 
to get the 
> best out of any printer/ink combination
> 
> These inks are going to be for those among us who wish to produce 
the very 
> best best, which by definition means profiling one's own particular 
printer.
> If you can't or won't equip yourself with a spectrophotometer and a 
> linearisation capable RIP then you cannot be a serious B&W man.
> 
> Richard 
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your 
responsibility 
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you 
are
> currently using to read this email. ]

Ah the K3/7 set! Interesting idea. How would this be
different then the current Pizeotone/Quads approach?

Guy

--- byushooter <jellerbe@...> wrote:


> Guy, I plan to use carbon sepia on one side of my
> 4000 and 3 of the 
> K7 inks on the other side.  So, for me, it will act
> as a sort of 
> tonal variation.  I will be able to print solely
> with the carbon 
> sepia or blend in the neutral tones in different
> quantities to 
> reduce the amount of carbon sepia tone.  It was at
> Jon Cone's 
> suggestion that I give this a try so I think it will
> be doable.
> 
> Jenny
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>     QuadtoneRIP-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

The piezoICC profiles are pretty special and at this point creating custom
version of them is dependent on proprietary software.  I imagine that's
what you get with iQuads.

Using QTR is a totally different approach -- different printer driver,
different profiles and different workflow.  This would however allow
lots of custom control that you could use the Eye-One for.

Roy


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "odesmais" <odesmais@y...> wrote:

> I work on a 1280.
> I do have a spectro.
> If YOU know how do produce real BW profiles comparable to the Piezo 
> ones which are RVB but output grayscale with a quadtone printer 
> without any RIP straight out of PS on a PC, please share it with 
> those of us who are also trying this way to produce BW prints.
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett" <richard@r...> 
> wrote:
> > ---- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "odesmais" <odesmais@y...>
> > To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:57 PM
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography
> > 
> > > Because, and this is the purpose of QTR, the profiles shipped with
> > > PiezoBW ICC are generic. You have the possibility to ask (pay) for
> > > custom made one that will then bring out the same results. I have 
> not
> > > tested this service, but having PiezoBW ICC, the output with the
> > > generic profile is really, but really poor. Well, like canned 
> color
> > > profiles are out of the box. The grayscale is not smooth at all.
> > 
> > What printer are you using then?
> > 
> > > The use of ICC IMHO in a great thing under windows, all in done in
> > > PS. But again you have to get custom made profiles that add $150 
> for
> > > 3 of them. I don't like this idea : 1) because the kit is already
> > > well priced, 2) because if you want more than 3 papers you add 
> again
> > > $150 3)because when you do quadtone printing you often do also 
> color
> > > prints and usely have some profiler available you would like to be
> > > able to use to get the most out of your equipment.
> > 
> > If you don't have custom made profiles how on earth do you expect 
> to get the 
> > best out of any printer/ink combination
> > 
> > These inks are going to be for those among us who wish to produce 
> the very 
> > best best, which by definition means profiling one's own particular 
> printer.
> > If you can't or won't equip yourself with a spectrophotometer and a 
> > linearisation capable RIP then you cannot be a serious B&W man.
> > 
> > Richard 
> > 
> > ---
> > [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your 
> responsibility 
> > to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you 
> are
> > currently using to read this email. ]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 8:39 PM
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography
>
> Using QTR is a totally different approach -- different printer driver,
> different profiles and different workflow.  This would however allow
> lots of custom control that you could use the Eye-One for.

....and of course is going to be a part of the "new" Cone experience once 
the inks are out.

Richard 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Roy, do you have any thoughts on the quality of the fine art prints 
from the K7 inks using QTR, especially with a 4000?  They claim great 
tonal seperation, smooth transitions and an all around improvement in 
quality.  I'm not sure about how black their blacks are going to be.  
I was told the dMax on Hann Photo Rag was 1.62.  Do you consider that 
a good black?

Thanks,

Bob

  
--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" <jellerbe@j...> 
wrote:
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, guy washburn 
<guido02474@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi Jenny,
> > > 
> > > The K7 set is a neutral set not a toning set. All 7
> > > inks are the same tone. The goal is smooth tonal
> > > transition not tonal variation.
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps,
> > > 
> > > Guy
> > 
> > Guy, I plan to use carbon sepia on one side of my 4000 and 3 of 
the 
> > K7 inks on the other side.  So, for me, it will act as a sort of 
> > tonal variation.  I will be able to print solely with the carbon 
> > sepia or blend in the neutral tones in different quantities to 
> > reduce the amount of carbon sepia tone.  It was at Jon Cone's 
> > suggestion that I give this a try so I think it will be doable.
> > 
> > Jenny
> 
> I think this is a nice alternative to the full K7 inkset.  You 
could also use

> any pair of the standard piezotone sets. This way you can get a
> nice variable tone capability.
> 
> Roy

Hi Roy, 

I know we had that discussion on private mails. I was just 
mentionning that oppositely to what the Piezo site claims PiezoBW ICC 
is not "perfect" at all out of the box. iQuads might offer a better 
option, but personally I'd rather make my own profile, test them, 
edit them if necessary... This is what I do for color printing and 
they are goods enough to have me produce satisfactory results. Toned 
BW prints I'm not interested which explained why I went for Piezo : 
pure monochrome prints with no metamerism with smooth transistions. 
The last expectation is not met. Working on PC and being used to 
produce with a (quite) simple color managed worklow I was expected a 
lot from the BW ICC. 

I'll test the BW ICC editing (testing also the softproofing once the 
profile is edited) and if this fails QTR will be my only left option. 
I've never use it but I'll learn...

BTW, I have read the K7 presentation page on Inkjet Mall, but it 
seems there's no mention about "real" profiles. They suggest to use 
QTR and some sort of profiles but the recommendation of using QTR 
makes me feel they do not provide actual output profiles.

Thanks for having created this great software.

Olivier

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> The piezoICC profiles are pretty special and at this point creating 
custom
> version of them is dependent on proprietary software.  I imagine 
that's
> what you get with iQuads.
> 
> Using QTR is a totally different approach -- different printer 
driver,
> different profiles and different workflow.  This would however allow
> lots of custom control that you could use the Eye-One for.
> 
> Roy
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "odesmais" <odesmais@y...> 
wrote:
> > I work on a 1280.
> > I do have a spectro.
> > If YOU know how do produce real BW profiles comparable to the 
Piezo 
> > ones which are RVB but output grayscale with a quadtone printer 
> > without any RIP straight out of PS on a PC, please share it with 
> > those of us who are also trying this way to produce BW prints.
> > 
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett" 
<richard@r...> 
> > wrote:
> > > ---- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "odesmais" <odesmais@y...>
> > > To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:57 PM
> > > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography
> > > 
> > > > Because, and this is the purpose of QTR, the profiles shipped 
with
> > > > PiezoBW ICC are generic. You have the possibility to ask 
(pay) for
> > > > custom made one that will then bring out the same results. I 
have 
> > not
> > > > tested this service, but having PiezoBW ICC, the output with 
the
> > > > generic profile is really, but really poor. Well, like canned 
> > color
> > > > profiles are out of the box. The grayscale is not smooth at 
all.
> > > 
> > > What printer are you using then?
> > > 
> > > > The use of ICC IMHO in a great thing under windows, all in 
done in
> > > > PS. But again you have to get custom made profiles that add 
$150 
> > for
> > > > 3 of them. I don't like this idea : 1) because the kit is 
already
> > > > well priced, 2) because if you want more than 3 papers you 
add 
> > again
> > > > $150 3)because when you do quadtone printing you often do 
also 
> > color
> > > > prints and usely have some profiler available you would like 
to be
> > > > able to use to get the most out of your equipment.
> > > 
> > > If you don't have custom made profiles how on earth do you 
expect 
> > to get the 
> > > best out of any printer/ink combination
> > > 
> > > These inks are going to be for those among us who wish to 
produce 
> > the very 
> > > best best, which by definition means profiling one's own 
particular 
> > printer.
> > > If you can't or won't equip yourself with a spectrophotometer 
and a 
> > > linearisation capable RIP then you cannot be a serious B&W man.
> > > 
> > > Richard 
> > > 
> > > ---
> > > [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your 
> > responsibility 
> > > to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that 
you 
> > are
> > > currently using to read this email. ]

I posed a question on the Piezography lists about user's experiences with
the piezotone inks on the 4000. I had been a long term and largely very
satisfied user of Piezo on a 7000 with Studioprint but the recent demise of
the printer and a smaller studio space necessitates a change.

I had three responses - one very positive and two very negative - citing
blockages and clogging, one to the point of Epson replacing the printer. I
had seen similar occasional complaints from other users on the list. It does
seem a possibility that Piezotone inks were better suited to the older 7000
generation of printers than the newer models.

So, would anyone on this list share their experiences with the 4000 and non
UC inks? I would love to try a quad or sept tone inkset in my 4000 because
although I am very impressed with QTR/UC, Piezo on a good day is better. But
I'm not sure that it is worth the risk.

Many thanks

Adrian Joyner
Clevedon
England

-----Original Message-----
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of rdpritchard
Sent: 23 July 2005 01:23
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography

Roy, do you have any thoughts on the quality of the fine art prints 
from the K7 inks using QTR, especially with a 4000?  They claim great 
tonal seperation, smooth transitions and an all around improvement in 
quality.  I'm not sure about how black their blacks are going to be.  
I was told the dMax on Hann Photo Rag was 1.62.  Do you consider that 
a good black?

Thanks,

Bob

  
--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" <jellerbe@j...> 
wrote:
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, guy washburn 
<guido02474@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi Jenny,
> > > 
> > > The K7 set is a neutral set not a toning set. All 7
> > > inks are the same tone. The goal is smooth tonal
> > > transition not tonal variation.
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps,
> > > 
> > > Guy
> > 
> > Guy, I plan to use carbon sepia on one side of my 4000 and 3 of 
the 
> > K7 inks on the other side.  So, for me, it will act as a sort of 
> > tonal variation.  I will be able to print solely with the carbon 
> > sepia or blend in the neutral tones in different quantities to 
> > reduce the amount of carbon sepia tone.  It was at Jon Cone's 
> > suggestion that I give this a try so I think it will be doable.
> > 
> > Jenny
> 
> I think this is a nice alternative to the full K7 inkset.  You 
could also use
> any pair of the standard piezotone sets. This way you can get a
> nice variable tone capability.
> 
> Roy




 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Jenny & Olivier:

I have been using a 1280 with continuous flow
piezography inks (selenium toned) and using the ICC
profiles and getting outstanding results.  I have
tried using the QTR on my 4000 (and my 2200) and have
not gotten anywhere near the detail in the shadows
yet.  I know I have to spend more time with QTR to get
those customizations.  But I control a lot of the
image quality within Photoshop doing everything in 16
bit.  Using levels and curves to tweek the image gets
outstanding blacks, good shadow detail and excellent
highlights--nothing I have yet to be able to reproduce
in QTR.  If anyone has any thoughts how to really
maximize QTR on the 4000 to get the same quality, I am
all ears and would appreciate the help.

Mike

Bob,  from what I've seen on the 2200 the inks are very capable of very
smooth prints.  At 2880dpi even with a loupe there are no visible dots that
I can see.  Good profiles are needed to get all this but since the inks are
so simple in concept its quite straightforward to make good profiles.
The dMax of 1.62 is in the ballpark -- not spectacular but not bad either.

Roy

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "rdpritchard" <rdpritchard@g...> wrote:

> Roy, do you have any thoughts on the quality of the fine art prints 
> from the K7 inks using QTR, especially with a 4000?  They claim great 
> tonal seperation, smooth transitions and an all around improvement in 
> quality.  I'm not sure about how black their blacks are going to be.  
> I was told the dMax on Hann Photo Rag was 1.62.  Do you consider that 
> a good black?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob
> 
>   
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" <jellerbe@j...> 
> wrote:
> > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, guy washburn 
> <guido02474@y...> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Jenny,
> > > > 
> > > > The K7 set is a neutral set not a toning set. All 7
> > > > inks are the same tone. The goal is smooth tonal
> > > > transition not tonal variation.
> > > > 
> > > > Hope this helps,
> > > > 
> > > > Guy
> > > 
> > > Guy, I plan to use carbon sepia on one side of my 4000 and 3 of 
> the 
> > > K7 inks on the other side.  So, for me, it will act as a sort of 
> > > tonal variation.  I will be able to print solely with the carbon 
> > > sepia or blend in the neutral tones in different quantities to 
> > > reduce the amount of carbon sepia tone.  It was at Jon Cone's 
> > > suggestion that I give this a try so I think it will be doable.
> > > 
> > > Jenny
> > 
> > I think this is a nice alternative to the full K7 inkset.  You 
> could also use
> > any pair of the standard piezotone sets. This way you can get a
> > nice variable tone capability.
> > 
> > Roy

Hi Oliver,

I haven't used the standard PiezoBW ICC workflow or the iQuads so
I can't comment directly to those.

QTR has always worked by making "curves" or "QTR profiles" that tell
exactly how much of each ink is used for each of the 256 possible gray values.
These are completely different from ICC profiles.  They are just internal to
QTR -- not connected to the color management system.  These QTR profiles
have always been linearized to a straightline in Lab (L*) units.   

Over the last two releases I've introduced methods to take advantage of
the color management system to connect the embedded profile space 
of the data file with the "standardized" QTR linearization.  This has improved
the screen to print matching considerably.

The 2.2 release has two generic ICC print profiles for matte paper and photo
paper.  While they are generic since the QTR linearization is standardized
they work quite well in most cases.  The latest release 2.3 which is still
listed as beta has gone one step further to allow you to create a custom
grayscale ICC print profile.  This is exactly like the color profiling systems
-- print out a target without CMS, read the target data, make a profile to
be used for printing.

The K7 information you see on inkjetmall is mainly providing the QTR profiles
to give a standard linearized grayscale output with their inks.  
The ICC profile stuff is part of the QTR package -- you would get to decide
how customized you want to go.

Roy


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "odesmais" <odesmais@y...> wrote:

> Hi Roy, 
> 
> I know we had that discussion on private mails. I was just 
> mentionning that oppositely to what the Piezo site claims PiezoBW ICC 
> is not "perfect" at all out of the box. iQuads might offer a better 
> option, but personally I'd rather make my own profile, test them, 
> edit them if necessary... This is what I do for color printing and 
> they are goods enough to have me produce satisfactory results. Toned 
> BW prints I'm not interested which explained why I went for Piezo : 
> pure monochrome prints with no metamerism with smooth transistions. 
> The last expectation is not met. Working on PC and being used to 
> produce with a (quite) simple color managed worklow I was expected a 
> lot from the BW ICC. 
> 
> I'll test the BW ICC editing (testing also the softproofing once the 
> profile is edited) and if this fails QTR will be my only left option. 
> I've never use it but I'll learn...
> 
> BTW, I have read the K7 presentation page on Inkjet Mall, but it 
> seems there's no mention about "real" profiles. They suggest to use 
> QTR and some sort of profiles but the recommendation of using QTR 
> makes me feel they do not provide actual output profiles.
> 
> Thanks for having created this great software.
> 
> Olivier
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > The piezoICC profiles are pretty special and at this point creating 
> custom
> > version of them is dependent on proprietary software.  I imagine 
> that's
> > what you get with iQuads.
> > 
> > Using QTR is a totally different approach -- different printer 
> driver,
> > different profiles and different workflow.  This would however allow
> > lots of custom control that you could use the Eye-One for.
> > 
> > Roy
> > 
> > 
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "odesmais" <odesmais@y...> 
> wrote:
> > > I work on a 1280.
> > > I do have a spectro.
> > > If YOU know how do produce real BW profiles comparable to the 
> Piezo 
> > > ones which are RVB but output grayscale with a quadtone printer 
> > > without any RIP straight out of PS on a PC, please share it with 
> > > those of us who are also trying this way to produce BW prints.
> > > 
> > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett" 
> <richard@r...> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > ---- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: "odesmais" <odesmais@y...>
> > > > To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:57 PM
> > > > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography
> > > > 
> > > > > Because, and this is the purpose of QTR, the profiles shipped 
> with
> > > > > PiezoBW ICC are generic. You have the possibility to ask 
> (pay) for
> > > > > custom made one that will then bring out the same results. I 
> have 
> > > not
> > > > > tested this service, but having PiezoBW ICC, the output with 
> the
> > > > > generic profile is really, but really poor. Well, like canned 
> > > color
> > > > > profiles are out of the box. The grayscale is not smooth at 
> all.
> > > > 
> > > > What printer are you using then?
> > > > 
> > > > > The use of ICC IMHO in a great thing under windows, all in 
> done in
> > > > > PS. But again you have to get custom made profiles that add 
> $150 
> > > for
> > > > > 3 of them. I don't like this idea : 1) because the kit is 
> already
> > > > > well priced, 2) because if you want more than 3 papers you 
> add 
> > > again
> > > > > $150 3)because when you do quadtone printing you often do 
> also 
> > > color
> > > > > prints and usely have some profiler available you would like 
> to be
> > > > > able to use to get the most out of your equipment.
> > > > 
> > > > If you don't have custom made profiles how on earth do you 
> expect 
> > > to get the 
> > > > best out of any printer/ink combination
> > > > 
> > > > These inks are going to be for those among us who wish to 
> produce 
> > > the very 
> > > > best best, which by definition means profiling one's own 
> particular 
> > > printer.
> > > > If you can't or won't equip yourself with a spectrophotometer 
> and a 
> > > > linearisation capable RIP then you cannot be a serious B&W man.
> > > > 
> > > > Richard 
> > > > 
> > > > ---
> > > > [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your 
> > > responsibility 
> > > > to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that 
> you 
> > > are
> > > > currently using to read this email. ]

----- Original Message -----

From: Roy Harrington

To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 9:12 PM

Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography

........ The latest release 2.3 which is still
listed as beta has gone one step further to allow you to create a custom
grayscale ICC print profile. This is exactly like the color profiling systems
-- print out a target without CMS, read the target data, make a profile to
be used for printing.....

Roy

With what are you reading the target data ? Densitometer ? Spectrophotometer ? Which model ? Then how do make the profile ?

Sorry for so many questions but it might help many of us.

Michel

Hi Roy,

I'm getting confused here : QTR 2.3 "allows you to create a custom
> grayscale ICC print profile.  This is exactly like the color 
profiling systems
> -- print out a target without CMS, read the target data, make a 
profile to
> be used for printing."

My understanding of it was that the BW profile was not an "full" 
output one meaning oppositely to a traditional color one it maps gray 
value inside the gray lab you also generated but is then processed 
trough QTR that does the printer driving. In short to drive the 
printer through the OEM driver you do need a RVB profile. And I thus 
understood this provides additional faetures in terms of softproofing.

So am I correct assuming now that 2.3 allows not to go for one 
ink/paper setting for each combinaison but just a single one (generic 
linearized one) and then the profiles handle the various possible 
ink/paper situations ? This is what color prolifing would do (adding 
linearization in the RVB outpout workflow). If so then comes a  
question : do you still need the grey space ? L should be the same 
axis in a color and a monochrome space.  

Well, in short I feel I did not understand it all...

Olivier


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> Hi Oliver,
> 
> I haven't used the standard PiezoBW ICC workflow or the iQuads so
> I can't comment directly to those.
> 
> QTR has always worked by making "curves" or "QTR profiles" that tell
> exactly how much of each ink is used for each of the 256 possible 
gray values.
> These are completely different from ICC profiles.  They are just 
internal to
> QTR -- not connected to the color management system.  These QTR 
profiles
> have always been linearized to a straightline in Lab (L*) units.   
> 
> Over the last two releases I've introduced methods to take 
advantage of
> the color management system to connect the embedded profile space 
> of the data file with the "standardized" QTR linearization.  This 
has improved
> the screen to print matching considerably.
> 
> The 2.2 release has two generic ICC print profiles for matte paper 
and photo
> paper.  While they are generic since the QTR linearization is 
standardized
> they work quite well in most cases.  The latest release 2.3 which 
is still
> listed as beta has gone one step further to allow you to create a 
custom
> grayscale ICC print profile.  This is exactly like the color 
profiling systems
> -- print out a target without CMS, read the target data, make a 
profile to
> be used for printing.
> 
> The K7 information you see on inkjetmall is mainly providing the 
QTR profiles
> to give a standard linearized grayscale output with their inks.  
> The ICC profile stuff is part of the QTR package -- you would get 
to decide
> how customized you want to go.
> 
> Roy
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "odesmais" <odesmais@y...> 
wrote:
> > Hi Roy, 
> > 
> > I know we had that discussion on private mails. I was just 
> > mentionning that oppositely to what the Piezo site claims PiezoBW 
ICC 
> > is not "perfect" at all out of the box. iQuads might offer a 
better 
> > option, but personally I'd rather make my own profile, test them, 
> > edit them if necessary... This is what I do for color printing 
and 
> > they are goods enough to have me produce satisfactory results. 
Toned 
> > BW prints I'm not interested which explained why I went for 
Piezo : 
> > pure monochrome prints with no metamerism with smooth 
transistions. 
> > The last expectation is not met. Working on PC and being used to 
> > produce with a (quite) simple color managed worklow I was 
expected a 
> > lot from the BW ICC. 
> > 
> > I'll test the BW ICC editing (testing also the softproofing once 
the 
> > profile is edited) and if this fails QTR will be my only left 
option. 
> > I've never use it but I'll learn...
> > 
> > BTW, I have read the K7 presentation page on Inkjet Mall, but it 
> > seems there's no mention about "real" profiles. They suggest to 
use 
> > QTR and some sort of profiles but the recommendation of using QTR 
> > makes me feel they do not provide actual output profiles.
> > 
> > Thanks for having created this great software.
> > 
> > Olivier
> > 
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> 
wrote:
> > > 
> > > The piezoICC profiles are pretty special and at this point 
creating 
> > custom
> > > version of them is dependent on proprietary software.  I 
imagine 
> > that's
> > > what you get with iQuads.
> > > 
> > > Using QTR is a totally different approach -- different printer 
> > driver,
> > > different profiles and different workflow.  This would however 
allow
> > > lots of custom control that you could use the Eye-One for.
> > > 
> > > Roy
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "odesmais" <odesmais@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > > > I work on a 1280.
> > > > I do have a spectro.
> > > > If YOU know how do produce real BW profiles comparable to the 
> > Piezo 
> > > > ones which are RVB but output grayscale with a quadtone 
printer 
> > > > without any RIP straight out of PS on a PC, please share it 
with 
> > > > those of us who are also trying this way to produce BW prints.
> > > > 
> > > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett" 
> > <richard@r...> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > ---- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > From: "odesmais" <odesmais@y...>
> > > > > To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:57 PM
> > > > > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Because, and this is the purpose of QTR, the profiles 
shipped 
> > with
> > > > > > PiezoBW ICC are generic. You have the possibility to ask 
> > (pay) for
> > > > > > custom made one that will then bring out the same 
results. I 
> > have 
> > > > not
> > > > > > tested this service, but having PiezoBW ICC, the output 
with 
> > the
> > > > > > generic profile is really, but really poor. Well, like 
canned 
> > > > color
> > > > > > profiles are out of the box. The grayscale is not smooth 
at 
> > all.
> > > > > 
> > > > > What printer are you using then?
> > > > > 
> > > > > > The use of ICC IMHO in a great thing under windows, all 
in 
> > done in
> > > > > > PS. But again you have to get custom made profiles that 
add 
> > $150 
> > > > for
> > > > > > 3 of them. I don't like this idea : 1) because the kit is 
> > already
> > > > > > well priced, 2) because if you want more than 3 papers 
you 
> > add 
> > > > again
> > > > > > $150 3)because when you do quadtone printing you often do 
> > also 
> > > > color
> > > > > > prints and usely have some profiler available you would 
like 
> > to be
> > > > > > able to use to get the most out of your equipment.
> > > > > 
> > > > > If you don't have custom made profiles how on earth do you 
> > expect 
> > > > to get the 
> > > > > best out of any printer/ink combination
> > > > > 
> > > > > These inks are going to be for those among us who wish to 
> > produce 
> > > > the very 
> > > > > best best, which by definition means profiling one's own 
> > particular 
> > > > printer.
> > > > > If you can't or won't equip yourself with a 
spectrophotometer 
> > and a 
> > > > > linearisation capable RIP then you cannot be a serious B&W 
man.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Richard 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ---
> > > > > [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your 
> > > > responsibility 
> > > > > to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device 
that 

> > you 
> > > > are
> > > > > currently using to read this email. ]

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Sinwen" <sinwen@f...> wrote:
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Roy Harrington 
>   To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 9:12 PM
>   Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography
> 
> 
>   ........ The latest release 2.3 which is still
>   listed as beta has gone one step further to allow you to create a custom
>   grayscale ICC print profile.  This is exactly like the color profiling systems
>   -- print out a target without CMS, read the target data, make a profile to
>   be used for printing.....
> 
>   Roy
> 
>   With what are you reading the target data ? Densitometer ? Spectrophotometer ? 
Which model ? Then how do make the profile ?
>   Sorry for so many questions but it might help many of us.
> 
>   Michel

At the moment only the Eye-One is supported using MeasureTool for reading.
If you download 2.3 there's an EyeOne folder that has the info.  The likely
other formats for the future are for X-rite devices using ToolCrib.  The 
data files are simple text files so it will also be possible to just format your
data by hand.  The current system uses the Lab (L*) values but density will
also be supported.

Roy

Roy Harrington wrote:

>--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Sinwen" <sinwen@f...> wrote:
>  
>
>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>  From: Roy Harrington 
>>  To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
>>  Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 9:12 PM
>>  Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography
>>
>>
>>  ........ The latest release 2.3 which is still
>>  listed as beta has gone one step further to allow you to create a custom
>>  grayscale ICC print profile.  This is exactly like the color profiling systems
>>  -- print out a target without CMS, read the target data, make a profile to
>>  be used for printing.....
>>
>>  Roy
>>
>>  With what are you reading the target data ? Densitometer ? Spectrophotometer ? 
>>    
>>
>Which model ? Then how do make the profile ?
>  
>
>>  Sorry for so many questions but it might help many of us.
>>
>>  Michel
>>    
>>
>
>At the moment only the Eye-One is supported using MeasureTool for reading.
>If you download 2.3 there's an EyeOne folder that has the info.  The likely
>other formats for the future are for X-rite devices using ToolCrib.  The 
>data files are simple text files so it will also be possible to just format your
>data by hand.  The current system uses the Lab (L*) values but density will
>also be supported.
>
>Roy
>  
>
Would it be possible to adapt the QTR measurements file format that it 
resembles Monaco Profiler input files?  For almost all the spectrometers 
around there's a tool that will deliver the last filetype.  X-Rite's 
ColorPort could be used to make the targets for most of the other tools 
(SpectroCam-Avantes) and ColorPort itself can be used as a measurement 
tool for the X-Rite and Gretag-Macbeth meters.

Ernst

Roy

Is it fair to assume that, for now, only the L* coordinate (or density) is
relevant and therefore, if one already has a densitometer, considering
purchase of a spectrophotometer is unnecessary?

Also, I have an Excel spreadsheet that works with Toolcrib and converts
density to L* and have used that to create my own ICC profiles using Roy's
ICC utility and text files. If anyone wants a copy, let me know.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Roy Harrington
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:13 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography
...
> 
> At the moment only the Eye-One is supported using MeasureTool for reading.
> If you download 2.3 there's an EyeOne folder that has the info.  The
> likely
> other formats for the future are for X-rite devices using ToolCrib.  The
> data files are simple text files so it will also be possible to just
> format your
> data by hand.  The current system uses the Lab (L*) values but density
> will
> also be supported.
...

Tom

At the moment only the L* value is used so density is a perfectly good
substitute.  At some point I may use the a and b for softproofing but
for the basic print profile you're fine. 

Roy

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@r...> wrote:
> Roy
> 
> Is it fair to assume that, for now, only the L* coordinate (or density) is
> relevant and therefore, if one already has a densitometer, considering
> purchase of a spectrophotometer is unnecessary?
> 
> Also, I have an Excel spreadsheet that works with Toolcrib and converts
> density to L* and have used that to create my own ICC profiles using Roy's
> ICC utility and text files. If anyone wants a copy, let me know.
> 
> Tom Moore
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] 
On

> > Behalf Of Roy Harrington
> > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:13 PM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Piezography
> ...
> > 
> > At the moment only the Eye-One is supported using MeasureTool for reading.
> > If you download 2.3 there's an EyeOne folder that has the info.  The
> > likely
> > other formats for the future are for X-rite devices using ToolCrib.  The
> > data files are simple text files so it will also be possible to just
> > format your
> > data by hand.  The current system uses the Lab (L*) values but density
> > will
> > also be supported.
> ...

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> Roy Harrington wrote:
> 
> >
> >At the moment only the Eye-One is supported using MeasureTool for reading.
> >If you download 2.3 there's an EyeOne folder that has the info.  The likely
> >other formats for the future are for X-rite devices using ToolCrib.  The 
> >data files are simple text files so it will also be possible to just format your
> >data by hand.  The current system uses the Lab (L*) values but density will
> >also be supported.
> >
> >Roy
> >  
> >
> Would it be possible to adapt the QTR measurements file format that it 
> resembles Monaco Profiler input files?  For almost all the spectrometers 
> around there's a tool that will deliver the last filetype.  X-Rite's 
> ColorPort could be used to make the targets for most of the other tools 
> (SpectroCam-Avantes) and ColorPort itself can be used as a measurement 
> tool for the X-Rite and Gretag-Macbeth meters.
> 
> Ernst

Ernst,

I'd be glad to look at that possibility.  Could you send be a sample file
of data?  Also let me know if there is a more appropriate target file.

Roy