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2008-09-12 by djon43
Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors).
2008-09-12 by Carl Schofield
I'm currently testing Renaissance wax on water resistant glossy canvas. Seems to work very well giving a nice soft sheen and good for protecting from dirt, grime, water, etc. It did eliminate slight gloss differential on some of my canvas prints. I have no bronzing problems. Carl
On Sep 12, 2008, at 1:27 PM, djon43 wrote: > Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? > > It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what > does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? > > I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on > darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal > with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors).
2008-09-12 by magickPal
As an antique conservator (furniture, decorative arts) I would caution you not to ascribe too much confidence in any wax giving significant protection to anything. This includes "Renaissance Wax" which is, in reality, not much different than any of other the proprietary waxes that are on the market, even though it seems, unexplainably to me, to have been chosen by the public to contain qualities, that are unavailable in the others. Waxes throughout history have been primarily used for aesthetic reasons, and in my experience have a rather minimal use as a protectant. I wonder if there is any real data on its effect on paper. I have never heard of a paper conservator using it and doubt it has been. What the materials that are defined as "canvas" I have no knowledge of. Any graphics conservators out there? David Pal
----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Schofield To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? I'm currently testing Renaissance wax on water resistant glossy canvas. Seems to work very well giving a nice soft sheen and good for protecting from dirt, grime, water, etc. It did eliminate slight gloss differential on some of my canvas prints. I have no bronzing problems. Carl On Sep 12, 2008, at 1:27 PM, djon43 wrote: > Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? > > It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what > does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? > > I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on > darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal > with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2008-09-12 by Carl Schofield
Renaissance wax has been used on silver gelatin prints and oil paintings by museum conservators for years. It produces a very hard, durable finish that protects the print surface from finger prints, dust, dirt, grease, etc.. It is obviously not sufficient for protection against rough handling and physical abuse that would cause scratching or gouging of the surface. Most people that print on canvas feel obligated (long tradition that carries over from painters) to slap on thick coats of water based acrylic or solvent based varnishes for physical protection. The new water resistant glossy canvas coatings with a thin finish coat of Renaissance wax will withstand light handling well and is all that I need for home display of gallery wrapped canvas prints. Carl
On Sep 12, 2008, at 2:32 PM, magickPal wrote: > As an antique conservator (furniture, decorative arts) I would > caution you not to ascribe too much confidence in any wax giving > significant protection to anything. This includes "Renaissance Wax" > which is, in reality, not much different than any of other the > proprietary waxes that are on the market, even though it seems, > unexplainably to me, to have been chosen by the public to contain > qualities, that are unavailable in the others. Waxes throughout > history have been primarily used for aesthetic reasons, and in my > experience have a rather minimal use as a protectant. I wonder if > there is any real data on its effect on paper. I have never heard of > a paper conservator using it and doubt it has been. What the > materials that are defined as "canvas" I have no knowledge of. Any > graphics conservators out there? > > David Pal > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carl Schofield > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:37 AM > Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? > > > I'm currently testing Renaissance wax on water resistant glossy > canvas. Seems to work very well giving a nice soft sheen and good for > protecting from dirt, grime, water, etc. It did eliminate slight > gloss differential on some of my canvas prints. I have no bronzing > problems. > > Carl > > On Sep 12, 2008, at 1:27 PM, djon43 wrote: > >> Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? >> >> It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what >> does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? >> >> I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on >> darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal >> with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors).
2008-09-12 by mrjimbo
David, I concur with your assesment.. A short time ago this product was brought up and discussed to some degree.. I did a post regarding what I understood.. Since then I had an opportunity to speak with a Fredrikson Rep whom also follows this group.. At any rate .. those that choose to go that route do so at their own risk.. The material and ink suppliers feel their is no credible data that supports the use of this product.. So if one has an issue they have lost whatever support they may have gotten from their Canvas or ink supplier.. The part that I struggle with is that I understand one wanting to do things less costly and easier.. but when it come to canvas if your using aquias inks you must coat the product. IF coating a canvas is that much of a struggel then sell your printer and swith to solvent inks and do what is refered to as a Decor Giclee..Pretty much all canavs suppliers that I have dealt with thru the years will gladly tell you the approved coatings that work with their products.. So in a sense it's part of a system. Those that want to use Renaissance Wax probably simply don't want to deal with the idea or rolling or spraying their products.. Well the truth is that goes with the territory.. SO those that try this unapproved stuff and if they end up with egg on their faces actually effect all of us in the long run.. Those that want to use Renaissance Wax. I would suggest they contact the manufacturer and have them get hooked up with a Canvas manufacturer and go thru the wickets of testing etc so they can get the concurance of the material supplier.. Anyone that is in question I suggest contact your material supplier ( canvas ) and ask them if it's an approved process. I've see posters speak highly of this material being used on canvas.. The stuff is not designed for that use..It furnitur epolish basically... Why take the risk .. If you want to hang the prints on your own walls then I guess it's for each their own.. but if your selling them.. well their is no way I would think anyone presently knows the long term or short term for that matter effects of this product on canvas.. As a side bar I was recently made aware of a friend that offered a warranty on his canvas images based upon what he understood the longitivity to be.. He did considerable work for a well know artist and has been sued regarding images that are falling off the shelf after 8 years (Their fading badly I understand) Simply he overstated a warranty and now gets to make good on it.. SO if you sell a product with wax on it would you share that with your customer such that it's your inovation and whatever happens as a result of that just happens??? jimbo
----- Original Message ----- From: magickPal To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? As an antique conservator (furniture, decorative arts) I would caution you not to ascribe too much confidence in any wax giving significant protection to anything. This includes "Renaissance Wax" which is, in reality, not much different than any of other the proprietary waxes that are on the market, even though it seems, unexplainably to me, to have been chosen by the public to contain qualities, that are unavailable in the others. Waxes throughout history have been primarily used for aesthetic reasons, and in my experience have a rather minimal use as a protectant. I wonder if there is any real data on its effect on paper. I have never heard of a paper conservator using it and doubt it has been. What the materials that are defined as "canvas" I have no knowledge of. Any graphics conservators out there? David Pal ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Schofield To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? I'm currently testing Renaissance wax on water resistant glossy canvas. Seems to work very well giving a nice soft sheen and good for protecting from dirt, grime, water, etc. It did eliminate slight gloss differential on some of my canvas prints. I have no bronzing problems. Carl On Sep 12, 2008, at 1:27 PM, djon43 wrote: > Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? > > It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what > does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? > > I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on > darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal > with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2008-09-12 by magickPal
Hi Jimbo, You talk like a conservator and I agree with everything you say. When using a wax, and I must say again, that I am sure that there is nothing new in Renaissance Wax, that cannot be found in many other modern preparations, regardless of whether it is used by conservators. (the title "conservator" another whole subject in itself) What I have to add is that these newly formulated waxes -which Renaissance Wax is one of- have other chemicals that have no history in there effects on the materials we are speaking of. I have had a number of waxes analyzed on a gas chromatograph, and defined, that have things like petroleum distillates (admittedly a most vague term, but OK for this discussion)as well as a number of others like Xyene and Naphthas. I think I remember Triethanolamine for emulsifcation, which I think would be necessary. This wax is not the old master secret formula that the name romantically implies to some, as a matter of fact it is comparatively quite "techie" . I would think that these elements should have some kind of testing in their effects on the materials that photographers use, beyond testimonials. As you say making mistakes in these matters can be very costly later on, to the professional. I have been there. Re: The poster who spoke about the use of it for protecting it against fingerprints Etc.. A wax preparation would very likely be giving this illusion, in the same way you would keep a dry surface from showing the oil from a fingerprint by covering a surface with oil, which would not show the oil left by a finger, when touched. Simply because it is already, in a practical sense, oily. That to me, structurally, is not the same as a protectant. Respectfully, David
----- Original Message ----- From: mrjimbo To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? David, I concur with your assesment.. A short time ago this product was brought up and discussed to some degree.. I did a post regarding what I understood.. Since then I had an opportunity to speak with a Fredrikson Rep whom also follows this group.. At any rate .. those that choose to go that route do so at their own risk.. The material and ink suppliers feel their is no credible data that supports the use of this product.. So if one has an issue they have lost whatever support they may have gotten from their Canvas or ink supplier.. The part that I struggle with is that I understand one wanting to do things less costly and easier.. but when it come to canvas if your using aquias inks you must coat the product. IF coating a canvas is that much of a struggel then sell your printer and swith to solvent inks and do what is refered to as a Decor Giclee..Pretty much all canavs suppliers that I have dealt with thru the years will gladly tell you the approved coatings that work with their products.. So in a sense it's part of a system. Those that want to use Renaissance Wax probably simply don't want to deal with the idea or rolling or spraying their products.. Well the truth is that goes with the territory.. SO those that try this unapproved stuff and if they end up with egg on their faces actually effect all of us in the long run.. Those that want to use Renaissance Wax. I would suggest they contact the manufacturer and have them get hooked up with a Canvas manufacturer and go thru the wickets of testing etc so they can get the concurance of the material supplier.. Anyone that is in question I suggest contact your material supplier ( canvas ) and ask them if it's an approved process. I've see posters speak highly of this material being used on canvas.. The stuff is not designed for that use..It furnitur epolish basically... Why take the risk .. If you want to hang the prints on your own walls then I guess it's for each their own.. but if your selling them.. well their is no way I would think anyone presently knows the long term or short term for that matter effects of this product on canvas.. As a side bar I was recently made aware of a friend that offered a warranty on his canvas images based upon what he understood the longitivity to be.. He did considerable work for a well know artist and has been sued regarding images that are falling off the shelf after 8 years (Their fading badly I understand) Simply he overstated a warranty and now gets to make good on it.. SO if you sell a product with wax on it would you share that with your customer such that it's your inovation and whatever happens as a result of that just happens??? jimbo ----- Original Message ----- From: magickPal To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? As an antique conservator (furniture, decorative arts) I would caution you not to ascribe too much confidence in any wax giving significant protection to anything. This includes "Renaissance Wax" which is, in reality, not much different than any of other the proprietary waxes that are on the market, even though it seems, unexplainably to me, to have been chosen by the public to contain qualities, that are unavailable in the others. Waxes throughout history have been primarily used for aesthetic reasons, and in my experience have a rather minimal use as a protectant. I wonder if there is any real data on its effect on paper. I have never heard of a paper conservator using it and doubt it has been. What the materials that are defined as "canvas" I have no knowledge of. Any graphics conservators out there? David Pal ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Schofield To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? I'm currently testing Renaissance wax on water resistant glossy canvas. Seems to work very well giving a nice soft sheen and good for protecting from dirt, grime, water, etc. It did eliminate slight gloss differential on some of my canvas prints. I have no bronzing problems. Carl On Sep 12, 2008, at 1:27 PM, djon43 wrote: > Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? > > It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what > does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? > > I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on > darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal > with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2008-09-12 by mrjimbo
Carl, Something seems missing.. possibly.. not sure.. Maybe I'm missing something here but I honestly don't think so.. My "listening' regarding the posts is that the wax will be used instead of the recommended coating.. If that's the case I don't feel it's appropriate .. If it's to be used on top of the recommended coating then their may be a benefit but I'm not sure I understand it.. This discussion regarding using the wax, in all fairness, should not compare to an original oil painting versus an aquais ink canvas giclee. They are incredibly different in both their make up and their process..ARtists for years have applied a good wax to their finished oil paintings they hav ealso used a product like Liquin along the way to enhance teh quality an dgloss levels of the oil paints.. Lets note that today,while controversial, their are two type of inks used for giclee's.. Both Aquias and Solvent.. If this is a conversation about solvent inks then absolutely this wax probably would cause no harm nor have ill effects on the artwork as Solvent inks don't require a receptor layer. If however the Wax is used over an aquias ink set.. well lets go back words for a second so we can go forward..The receptor layer on canvas allows aquias inks to penetrate and hold on the canvas surface.. note that some of the new inks are cheating a little.. Their adding alcohol to the aquias inks as it mixes well with water.. (Canon does this and possibly HP.. I understand Epson does not.) Anyway, once you have applied an aquais ink to the canvas it requires a coating to basically complete the process. It's just the nature of the beast.. I do not think anyone has come up with a canvas that is fully functional uncoated for aquias inks to date.. SO once the canvas is coated with either a water base or solvent base material which is appropriate for the canvas / inkset you then have lift off as in a completed successful process. If one chooses to apply the wax after that process is completed I don't think it would hurt anything but it is not necessary.. Ok now moving on.. Wax is a pretty special product.. but no way is it permanent.. I've been using specialty wax product most of my life on everything from fine furniture to exotic show cars .. It's just not permanent.. Plus all the typically softer waxes that are used for wood attract dust... Once you've waxed your giclee assuming it's not coated with say bulldog or whatever you are now committed.. Wax is not friendly to any further top coats applied.. You must remove all the wax if you choose to apply a top coat that you expect to bond to the surface.. So what would removing all the wax from an aquias giclee look like.. I have no clue except to say that I'm not going there.. Constructively.. for those of you that just don't want to deal with the coating issue.. Well you bought the wrong printer.. Go buy a solvent machine.. That may sound pretty harsh but it's not really. If your selling an aquias print that is only waxed your really not selling what the industry says you need to do.. Maybe down the road they'll have this all worked out with new coating and inks.. But they sure don't today.. Their are lots of folks that are involved in inventing new technology and products.. That should not be confused with those that useing products outside the approved processes.. It's not to say we can't try new things and experiment but I specifically take exception to those that say it's ok just becasue they did it and it may "look" ok to them.. "Were's the beef" .. I have a couple of customers that if I tried something like that and got caught at it .. well I'd have to shut down the studio.. Rememebr your only as good as your last job for the most part.. Lastly again.. Call teh folks that make th ewax.. rather then speculate about what it wil lor won't do. See if they will support it on canvas using aquias inks.. jimbo
----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Schofield To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? Renaissance wax has been used on silver gelatin prints and oil paintings by museum conservators for years. It produces a very hard, durable finish that protects the print surface from finger prints, dust, dirt, grease, etc.. It is obviously not sufficient for protection against rough handling and physical abuse that would cause scratching or gouging of the surface. Most people that print on canvas feel obligated (long tradition that carries over from painters) to slap on thick coats of water based acrylic or solvent based varnishes for physical protection. The new water resistant glossy canvas coatings with a thin finish coat of Renaissance wax will withstand light handling well and is all that I need for home display of gallery wrapped canvas prints. Carl On Sep 12, 2008, at 2:32 PM, magickPal wrote: > As an antique conservator (furniture, decorative arts) I would > caution you not to ascribe too much confidence in any wax giving > significant protection to anything. This includes "Renaissance Wax" > which is, in reality, not much different than any of other the > proprietary waxes that are on the market, even though it seems, > unexplainably to me, to have been chosen by the public to contain > qualities, that are unavailable in the others. Waxes throughout > history have been primarily used for aesthetic reasons, and in my > experience have a rather minimal use as a protectant. I wonder if > there is any real data on its effect on paper. I have never heard of > a paper conservator using it and doubt it has been. What the > materials that are defined as "canvas" I have no knowledge of. Any > graphics conservators out there? > > David Pal > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carl Schofield > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:37 AM > Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? > > > I'm currently testing Renaissance wax on water resistant glossy > canvas. Seems to work very well giving a nice soft sheen and good for > protecting from dirt, grime, water, etc. It did eliminate slight > gloss differential on some of my canvas prints. I have no bronzing > problems. > > Carl > > On Sep 12, 2008, at 1:27 PM, djon43 wrote: > >> Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? >> >> It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what >> does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? >> >> I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on >> darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal >> with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2008-09-12 by magickPal
Hi Carl, Just a further note. I guess it depends on what you call years. Renaissance Wax is a what I would definetely call a recent product and I think I remember it is composed primarily of micro-crystalline waxes. Personally I find it to be a very inferior product, but thats me. The conservators that I have known who restore "Masters" paintings do not wax them, nor since I last was in ones studio,do they "slap on thick coats" of water based acrylic "varnishes". On the contrary they apply as thin a coating as possible in a very precise manner. Some of the coatings used on wooden articles take at least ten years to truly acquire the skills to do so. The last time I was in a conservators studio, was at the LA County Museum and he had been working on the same painting for over a year. I also have never heard of people using water based so called varnishes on paintings, in the oil painting conservation field, but I have been out of the mainstream for a number of years. This reminds to mention the main tenet of conservation and that is "not to do anything that cannot be reversed". The varnished used in painting conservation is, without exception, required to be reversible without damage to the underlying work. I guess that would be impossible with photos. So what painting conservators do and their rationale, might not be very significant. It might be of interest to know that inorganic dyes were discovered in the 1880's and I read in a turn of the century text, that they "blow away with the wind". I remember when dyes for printing came out with photo printers. As stated they were well known in the painting field to be fugitive, many argued in favor of their permanency. Big mistakes can be made if care is not taken and even then you can still make them. Again respectfully, David
----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Schofield To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? Renaissance wax has been used on silver gelatin prints and oil paintings by museum conservators for years. It produces a very hard, durable finish that protects the print surface from finger prints, dust, dirt, grease, etc.. It is obviously not sufficient for protection against rough handling and physical abuse that would cause scratching or gouging of the surface. Most people that print on canvas feel obligated (long tradition that carries over from painters) to slap on thick coats of water based acrylic or solvent based varnishes for physical protection. The new water resistant glossy canvas coatings with a thin finish coat of Renaissance wax will withstand light handling well and is all that I need for home display of gallery wrapped canvas prints. Carl On Sep 12, 2008, at 2:32 PM, magickPal wrote: > As an antique conservator (furniture, decorative arts) I would > caution you not to ascribe too much confidence in any wax giving > significant protection to anything. This includes "Renaissance Wax" > which is, in reality, not much different than any of other the > proprietary waxes that are on the market, even though it seems, > unexplainably to me, to have been chosen by the public to contain > qualities, that are unavailable in the others. Waxes throughout > history have been primarily used for aesthetic reasons, and in my > experience have a rather minimal use as a protectant. I wonder if > there is any real data on its effect on paper. I have never heard of > a paper conservator using it and doubt it has been. What the > materials that are defined as "canvas" I have no knowledge of. Any > graphics conservators out there? > > David Pal > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carl Schofield > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:37 AM > Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? > > > I'm currently testing Renaissance wax on water resistant glossy > canvas. Seems to work very well giving a nice soft sheen and good for > protecting from dirt, grime, water, etc. It did eliminate slight > gloss differential on some of my canvas prints. I have no bronzing > problems. > > Carl > > On Sep 12, 2008, at 1:27 PM, djon43 wrote: > >> Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? >> >> It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what >> does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? >> >> I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on >> darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal >> with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2008-09-13 by Ken Carney
In the wet darkroom, there were a few papers that seemed to benefit from Renaissance wax (I remember Brovira especially). Out of curiosity I tried it on an Epson 2200 inkjet print on semi-gloss paper. I saw no image benefit or reduction in bronzing. BTW I was filing away some older prints made on Oriental warm-tone VC paper, and noticed that the gloss differential was pretty extreme when I tilted the paper. Odd that I hadn't noticed it before, but then I wasn't looking for it then. Ken _____
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djon43 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:28 PM To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2008-09-14 by Myron Gochnauer
Indeed. Gloss differential was/is pretty common with silver-image papers, especially RC papers. I'm sure many people noticed it, since viewing the surface at an angle is the normal way of checking the surface for dust or damage. I think the significant thing is that virtually no one *cared* about it because it did not affect the image. It was just a curiosity: "Oh look! At an angle you can see the dark parts piling up on the surface! Neat! I wonder if that's silver I'm seeing." Only photographers look at photographs from 3 inches or at 80 degrees from perpendicular to the surface. As long as gloss differential does not indicate fragility of the darker areas, should we fret about it, or waste a precious cartridge slot for "glop"? I'd rather see that "glop" slot given over to another black, either for smoother tonality or to allow me to have both matte and photo blacks, aat the same time, in the Epson R1800/1900. Myron > On 13 Jan, 2008, at 8:37 PM, Ken Carney wrote: > >> ...BTW I was filing away some older prints >> made on Oriental warm-tone VC paper, and noticed that the gloss >> differential >> was pretty extreme when I tilted the paper. Odd that I hadn't >> noticed it >> before, but then I wasn't looking for it then. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2008-09-15 by djon43
Holy Cow! You saw gloss differential on Oriental VC Paper? I never tried it, but I certainly never had that problem with Dupont Varigam , Kodak's miserable Polycontrast...the only semi-gloss VC papers I took seriously after Dupont were Kodak's and Agfa's Rapid Access stuff, both of which offered incredible blacks, presumably due to the extra silver, Were you toning your Oriental? That might explain it...I've seen some seriously over-toned selenium prints that bronzed, but that wouldn't explain gloss differential on wet darkroom paper ... --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney" <kcarney1@...> wrote: > > In the wet darkroom, there were a few papers that seemed to benefit from > Renaissance wax (I remember Brovira especially). Out of curiosity I tried > it on an Epson 2200 inkjet print on semi-gloss paper. I saw no image > benefit or reduction in bronzing. BTW I was filing away some older prints > made on Oriental warm-tone VC paper, and noticed that the gloss differential > was pretty extreme when I tilted the paper. Odd that I hadn't noticed it > before, but then I wasn't looking for it then. > > > > Ken > > > > _____ > > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of djon43 > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:28 PM > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? > > > > Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? > > It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what > does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? > > I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on > darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal > with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors). > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2008-09-15 by djon43
Just an amused note here: nobody has responded to my question. One person claimed he had "gloss differential" in his darkroom prints, but I think he was confusing that with bronzing... Bronzing occurs routinely with darkroom prints when they are excessively selenium or gold toned (ie poor craft). Obviously, the gloss in a darkroom print doesn't have to do with the silver...there can be no gloss differential with Oriental or other darkroom papers. My question was specifically about wax and bronzing (by definition that means inkjet & B&W). I have personal experience with Johnson's Paste Wax, applied to B&W photographs...it was occasionaly done by some art-oriented B&W darkroom printers twenty years ago...I did it, the prints I coated remain beautiful today, just as do the prints I didn't coat. Again, I asked about inkjet bronzing: QTR, B&W, inkjet.... canvas seems entirely OT. QTR has little relevance to canvas, a material used almost exclusively for color by "ye olde touriste gifte shoppes" or for color portraits.
2008-09-15 by mrjimbo
Hi, After reading several posts again on the wax.. I decieded to contact the manufacturer.. Picreator Enterprises...regarding it proper usage.. Basically their manageing director was the fella that came back on it and was quite nice.. They are aware that people for the past few years some have been using it on paper prints but offer no support for this usage.. It is up to the indiviidual to monitor it's effects.. He pointed out that the wax uses a white spirit.. ( petroleum distilite) which may have an effect on the coatings used for giclee printing .. But I personally doubt that any ill effect would come from the solvent..the wax is a different issue.. He also confirmed that the wax was not a permanent top coat as the nature of the material prevented this so over time reaplications are necessary. It was confirmed that the wax is clear but testing over time has not been done under different conditions to know if it maintain this quality.. Basically the material is a coating .. but it is left up the the individual user to determine it's sutability for their own application.. THey do not promote nor support it's use on paper prints nor as of late giclee's ...it's up to the user and they are responsible for the results.. jimbo
----- Original Message ----- From: magickPal To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? Hi Carl, Just a further note. I guess it depends on what you call years. Renaissance Wax is a what I would definetely call a recent product and I think I remember it is composed primarily of micro-crystalline waxes. Personally I find it to be a very inferior product, but thats me. The conservators that I have known who restore "Masters" paintings do not wax them, nor since I last was in ones studio,do they "slap on thick coats" of water based acrylic "varnishes". On the contrary they apply as thin a coating as possible in a very precise manner. Some of the coatings used on wooden articles take at least ten years to truly acquire the skills to do so. The last time I was in a conservators studio, was at the LA County Museum and he had been working on the same painting for over a year. I also have never heard of people using water based so called varnishes on paintings, in the oil painting conservation field, but I have been out of the mainstream for a number of years. This reminds to mention the main tenet of conservation and that is "not to do anything that cannot be reversed". The varnished used in painting conservation is, without exception, required to be reversible without damage to the underlying work. I guess that would be impossible with photos. So what painting conservators do and their rationale, might not be very significant. It might be of interest to know that inorganic dyes were discovered in the 1880's and I read in a turn of the century text, that they "blow away with the wind". I remember when dyes for printing came out with photo printers. As stated they were well known in the painting field to be fugitive, many argued in favor of their permanency. Big mistakes can be made if care is not taken and even then you can still make them. Again respectfully, David ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Schofield To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? Renaissance wax has been used on silver gelatin prints and oil paintings by museum conservators for years. It produces a very hard, durable finish that protects the print surface from finger prints, dust, dirt, grease, etc.. It is obviously not sufficient for protection against rough handling and physical abuse that would cause scratching or gouging of the surface. Most people that print on canvas feel obligated (long tradition that carries over from painters) to slap on thick coats of water based acrylic or solvent based varnishes for physical protection. The new water resistant glossy canvas coatings with a thin finish coat of Renaissance wax will withstand light handling well and is all that I need for home display of gallery wrapped canvas prints. Carl On Sep 12, 2008, at 2:32 PM, magickPal wrote: > As an antique conservator (furniture, decorative arts) I would > caution you not to ascribe too much confidence in any wax giving > significant protection to anything. This includes "Renaissance Wax" > which is, in reality, not much different than any of other the > proprietary waxes that are on the market, even though it seems, > unexplainably to me, to have been chosen by the public to contain > qualities, that are unavailable in the others. Waxes throughout > history have been primarily used for aesthetic reasons, and in my > experience have a rather minimal use as a protectant. I wonder if > there is any real data on its effect on paper. I have never heard of > a paper conservator using it and doubt it has been. What the > materials that are defined as "canvas" I have no knowledge of. Any > graphics conservators out there? > > David Pal > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carl Schofield > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:37 AM > Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? > > > I'm currently testing Renaissance wax on water resistant glossy > canvas. Seems to work very well giving a nice soft sheen and good for > protecting from dirt, grime, water, etc. It did eliminate slight > gloss differential on some of my canvas prints. I have no bronzing > problems. > > Carl > > On Sep 12, 2008, at 1:27 PM, djon43 wrote: > >> Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? >> >> It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what >> does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? >> >> I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on >> darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal >> with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2008-10-01 by Ken Carney
Yes, just on the warm tone. They were toned, but just selenium 1:20 for "archival" treatment, not for toning effect. This was the fiber paper. Yes, sometimes I would get carried away and use gold 231 and selenium or thiocarbamide or whatever, but this was not the case. Just a curiosity, now no doubt long gone, like my darkroom. For the better, IMHO. Ken _____
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djon43 Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:55 PM To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: renaissance wax and bronzing? Holy Cow! You saw gloss differential on Oriental VC Paper? I never tried it, but I certainly never had that problem with Dupont Varigam , Kodak's miserable Polycontrast...the only semi-gloss VC papers I took seriously after Dupont were Kodak's and Agfa's Rapid Access stuff, both of which offered incredible blacks, presumably due to the extra silver, Were you toning your Oriental? That might explain it...I've seen some seriously over-toned selenium prints that bronzed, but that wouldn't explain gloss differential on wet darkroom paper ... --- In QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney" <kcarney1@...> wrote: > > In the wet darkroom, there were a few papers that seemed to benefit from > Renaissance wax (I remember Brovira especially). Out of curiosity I tried > it on an Epson 2200 inkjet print on semi-gloss paper. I saw no image > benefit or reduction in bronzing. BTW I was filing away some older prints > made on Oriental warm-tone VC paper, and noticed that the gloss differential > was pretty extreme when I tilted the paper. Odd that I hadn't noticed it > before, but then I wasn't looking for it then. > > > > Ken > > > > _____ > > From: QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of djon43 > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:28 PM > To: QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] renaissance wax and bronzing? > > > > Has anybody got experience with Renaissance wax? > > It surely protective and dealers claim it'll "reduce" bronzing...what > does "reduce" mean? Is it highly worthwhile for that purpose? > > I'd rather apply wax and rub it (did that with Johnson's paste on > darkroom prints in the 70s) than spray because I don't want to deal > with dust and fumes (want to do it indoors). > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]