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CV/gate quandary...

CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by sequentix

Folks,

I've got the factory poised to start making Cirklon cases, just as soon as I make my mind up on one. last. detail...

Is there any real value in having quarter inch or 3.5mm sockets on the Cirklon rear panel ?
The alternative is to have only a multi-pin connector, and require an external breakout box or splitter cable.

The largest number of individual sockets that could fit on the rear panel would be about 12.
With a 25-way D connector, there could be up to 16 CV outs, and 8 gates.
Or some other combination, possibly including some CV input.

If you're looking to pick up a Cirklon to integrate into an analogue setup, how would you see yourself using it ?

The most recent pre-production Cirklon has two channels of CV/gate on quarter inch sockets.
It struck me that this doesn't really offer much advantage over a MIDI to CV convertor - the worst case latency over MIDI for two notes being 2ms, which is easily compensated for.
For my own studio, my biggest timing issue was with the triggering via MIDI of my analogue percussion sounds.
The problem there is that multiple hits on the same beat are spread out by at least 0.65ms per instrument over MIDI.
The solution I came up with for that was to have Cirklon output a CV/trigger multiplex.
A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a mere 23 separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is immediately obvious.

Let me know what you think.
Preferably soon ;-)

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by arpeggi8@btinternet.com

How about 1x 1/4" and 1x25 way D type?

Single jack is easy for 1 output, for more then a 25 way d and shell makes into a very convenient multiway connector.

Termination and reliability is also easy.

Mark

Sent from my BlackBerry� wireless device
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-----Original Message-----
From: "sequentix" <colin@sequentix.com>
Sender: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:39:11 
To: <analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

Folks,

I've got the factory poised to start making Cirklon cases, just as soon as I make my mind up on one. last. detail...

Is there any real value in having quarter inch or 3.5mm sockets on the Cirklon rear panel ?
The alternative is to have only a multi-pin connector, and require an external breakout box or splitter cable.

The largest number of individual sockets that could fit on the rear panel would be about 12.
With a 25-way D connector, there could be up to 16 CV outs, and 8 gates.
Or some other combination, possibly including some CV input.

If you're looking to pick up a Cirklon to integrate into an analogue setup, how would you see yourself using it ?

The most recent pre-production Cirklon has two channels of CV/gate on quarter inch sockets.
It struck me that this doesn't really offer much advantage over a MIDI to CV convertor - the worst case latency over MIDI for two notes being 2ms, which is easily compensated for.
For my own studio, my biggest timing issue was with the triggering via MIDI of my analogue percussion sounds.
The problem there is that multiple hits on the same beat are spread out by at least 0.65ms per instrument over MIDI.
The solution I came up with for that was to have Cirklon output a CV/trigger multiplex.
A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a mere 23 separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is immediately obvious.

Let me know what you think.
Preferably soon ;-)

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by Paul Nagle

sequentix wrote:

> A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
> I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a mere 23 separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is immediately obvious.

Having experienced this I have to say it's *very* obvious - like hearing 
a drum machine (where all the hits on a certain step happen at exactly 
the same time). Makes it very hard to contemplate using MIDI for drums 
ever again...

-- 
Paul
---
http://www.softroom.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/WilyEPeyote

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by companyofquail@gmail.com

I like the idea of a break out box so that I could just buy both 1/8 and 1/4 break out cables and switch between my setups. Also I really like the advantage of having more cv outputs as the advantage of controlling my modular AND having better timing would really be a large selling point for me. 

If the cirklon has the added cv outputs I will definitely purchase it, if it just has 2 I will more than likely just keep using my P3 and opt to not buy the cirklon. 
Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry�
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: "sequentix" <colin@sequentix.com>
Sender: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:39:11 
To: <analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

Folks,

I've got the factory poised to start making Cirklon cases, just as soon as I make my mind up on one. last. detail...

Is there any real value in having quarter inch or 3.5mm sockets on the Cirklon rear panel ?
The alternative is to have only a multi-pin connector, and require an external breakout box or splitter cable.

The largest number of individual sockets that could fit on the rear panel would be about 12.
With a 25-way D connector, there could be up to 16 CV outs, and 8 gates.
Or some other combination, possibly including some CV input.

If you're looking to pick up a Cirklon to integrate into an analogue setup, how would you see yourself using it ?

The most recent pre-production Cirklon has two channels of CV/gate on quarter inch sockets.
It struck me that this doesn't really offer much advantage over a MIDI to CV convertor - the worst case latency over MIDI for two notes being 2ms, which is easily compensated for.
For my own studio, my biggest timing issue was with the triggering via MIDI of my analogue percussion sounds.
The problem there is that multiple hits on the same beat are spread out by at least 0.65ms per instrument over MIDI.
The solution I came up with for that was to have Cirklon output a CV/trigger multiplex.
A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a mere 23 separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is immediately obvious.

Let me know what you think.
Preferably soon ;-)

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by James R. Coplin

I think the D connector is the best compromise.  I have a banana and ¼”
setup myself and the Doepfer Schaltwerk I use has all 1/8” outs.  Buying
converters etc. has been a major P.I.T.A.  It would have been far easier if
it had been on a D connector to just wire up what I needed.  Any company
making custom snakes should be able to supply any users needs if you don’t
want to solder yourself.

 

James R. Coplin
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sequentix
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:39 AM
To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

 

  

Folks,

I've got the factory poised to start making Cirklon cases, just as soon as I
make my mind up on one. last. detail...

Is there any real value in having quarter inch or 3.5mm sockets on the
Cirklon rear panel ?
The alternative is to have only a multi-pin connector, and require an
external breakout box or splitter cable.

The largest number of individual sockets that could fit on the rear panel
would be about 12.
With a 25-way D connector, there could be up to 16 CV outs, and 8 gates.
Or some other combination, possibly including some CV input.

If you're looking to pick up a Cirklon to integrate into an analogue setup,
how would you see yourself using it ?

The most recent pre-production Cirklon has two channels of CV/gate on
quarter inch sockets.
It struck me that this doesn't really offer much advantage over a MIDI to CV
convertor - the worst case latency over MIDI for two notes being 2ms, which
is easily compensated for.
For my own studio, my biggest timing issue was with the triggering via MIDI
of my analogue percussion sounds.
The problem there is that multiple hits on the same beat are spread out by
at least 0.65ms per instrument over MIDI.
The solution I came up with for that was to have Cirklon output a CV/trigger
multiplex.
A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate
pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the
triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a mere 23
separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is immediately
obvious.

Let me know what you think.
Preferably soon ;-)

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by DB

Hi Colin,
   The more cv/gate's the better. I vote for the 25-way D Connector...


Dave


sequentix wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>  
>
> Folks,
>
> I've got the factory poised to start making Cirklon cases, just as 
> soon as I make my mind up on one. last. detail...
>
> Is there any real value in having quarter inch or 3.5mm sockets on the 
> Cirklon rear panel ?
> The alternative is to have only a multi-pin connector, and require an 
> external breakout box or splitter cable.
>
> The largest number of individual sockets that could fit on the rear 
> panel would be about 12.
> With a 25-way D connector, there could be up to 16 CV outs, and 8 gates.
> Or some other combination, possibly including some CV input.
>
> If you're looking to pick up a Cirklon to integrate into an analogue 
> setup, how would you see yourself using it ?
>
> The most recent pre-production Cirklon has two channels of CV/gate on 
> quarter inch sockets.
> It struck me that this doesn't really offer much advantage over a MIDI 
> to CV convertor - the worst case latency over MIDI for two notes being 
> 2ms, which is easily compensated for.
> For my own studio, my biggest timing issue was with the triggering via 
> MIDI of my analogue percussion sounds.
> The problem there is that multiple hits on the same beat are spread 
> out by at least 0.65ms per instrument over MIDI.
> The solution I came up with for that was to have Cirklon output a 
> CV/trigger multiplex.
> A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate 
> pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the 
> triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
> I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a 
> mere 23 separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is 
> immediately obvious.
>
> Let me know what you think.
> Preferably soon ;-)
>
> Best regards,
> Colin Fraser
> Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
> http://www.sequentix.com
>
>

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by Richard Scott

> The more cv/gate's the better. I vote for the 25-way D Connector...
>


amen to that: I have banana, 1/4" and 1/8" to think about so a 25 way 
and some adapter cables would be very flexible. 16 outs and 8 gates 
sounds very good to me, although a couple of ins sounds even better - 
especially if they could be used to control direction and reset :)

A breakout box with even more could ins and outs be very interesting too

maybe one 1/4" on the unit itself is also nice for the uncommitted :)

Richard





rument over MIDI.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>  > The solution I came up with for that was to have Cirklon output a
>  > CV/trigger multiplex.
>  > A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate
>  > pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the
>  > triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
>  > I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a
>  > mere 23 separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is
>  > immediately obvious.
>  >
>  > Let me know what you think.
>  > Preferably soon ;-)
>  >
>  > Best regards,
>  > Colin Fraser
>  > Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
>  > http://www.sequentix.com
>  >
>  >
>
>

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by Miguel Mendoza

My vote is for the 25-way D connector. More flexible and more options. It's also easier to connect many CVs to a modular with one single connector, specially if the Cirklon is racked.  
I'll order a front panel from Shaffer or Front Panel Express and it will fit clean and nice into my modular. Can't wait... 

Please, not loosy 3,5 mm sockets.

Regarding the sync issues, the multiplex seems a good solution although I don't know if unquanticed CV outputs will be available on the Cirklon (interesting from my point of view). In that case, shall a fixed refresh period result in a stepped CV output? (Thinking about a kindof LFO).

Hope this makes sense. Please, forgive my english.

Regards!

Miguel.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: sequentix 
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 4:39 PM
To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...


  
Folks,

I've got the factory poised to start making Cirklon cases, just as soon as I make my mind up on one. last. detail...

Is there any real value in having quarter inch or 3.5mm sockets on the Cirklon rear panel ?
The alternative is to have only a multi-pin connector, and require an external breakout box or splitter cable.

The largest number of individual sockets that could fit on the rear panel would be about 12.
With a 25-way D connector, there could be up to 16 CV outs, and 8 gates.
Or some other combination, possibly including some CV input.

If you're looking to pick up a Cirklon to integrate into an analogue setup, how would you see yourself using it ?

The most recent pre-production Cirklon has two channels of CV/gate on quarter inch sockets.
It struck me that this doesn't really offer much advantage over a MIDI to CV convertor - the worst case latency over MIDI for two notes being 2ms, which is easily compensated for.
For my own studio, my biggest timing issue was with the triggering via MIDI of my analogue percussion sounds.
The problem there is that multiple hits on the same beat are spread out by at least 0.65ms per instrument over MIDI.
The solution I came up with for that was to have Cirklon output a CV/trigger multiplex.
A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a mere 23 separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is immediately obvious.

Let me know what you think.
Preferably soon ;-)

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by Colin f

> Please, not loosy 3,5 mm sockets.

A breakout box or modular panel can have whatever you prefer.
Trying to pick a single type of socket to suit everyone isn't easy.
 
> Regarding the sync issues, the multiplex seems a good 
> solution although I don't know if unquanticed CV outputs will 
> be available on the Cirklon (interesting from my point of 
> view). In that case, shall a fixed refresh period result in a 
> stepped CV output? (Thinking about a kindof LFO).

Unquantised outputs aren't available as such, but the resolution of the DACs
will be 12 or 16 bits.
At that level, the steps between values are very small.
There is still the possibility of zipper noise unless the output is filtered
at least to half the refresh/sample rate.
Such filtering needs to be switchable, to allow instantaneous changes of
values when large steps are wanted.
There's a scheme I have in mind for doing that, it's just a question of what
can fit on the CV I/O board.

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by Jeffrey koepper

HI I think a d connector with a break out box  would be great, only if
sequentix sold and provided the break out box with all the cv and gate
connections ready to go as an option. THat way the people only wanting midi
could buy it that way and the people wanting cv gate could buy the optional
break out box.. It would be cool to have lots of cvs and gates...
analog-jeff

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Colin f <colin@colinfraser.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> > Please, not loosy 3,5 mm sockets.
>
> A breakout box or modular panel can have whatever you prefer.
> Trying to pick a single type of socket to suit everyone isn't easy.
>
>
> > Regarding the sync issues, the multiplex seems a good
> > solution although I don't know if unquanticed CV outputs will
> > be available on the Cirklon (interesting from my point of
> > view). In that case, shall a fixed refresh period result in a
> > stepped CV output? (Thinking about a kindof LFO).
>
> Unquantised outputs aren't available as such, but the resolution of the
> DACs
> will be 12 or 16 bits.
> At that level, the steps between values are very small.
> There is still the possibility of zipper noise unless the output is
> filtered
> at least to half the refresh/sample rate.
> Such filtering needs to be switchable, to allow instantaneous changes of
> values when large steps are wanted.
> There's a scheme I have in mind for doing that, it's just a question of
> what
> can fit on the CV I/O board.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Colin Fraser
> Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
> http://www.sequentix.com
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by companyofquail@gmail.com

D25 should be great for everyone, and if you wanted to build your own break out box the cable from the cirklon to the panel would be really easy to source. And besides that I have a few drum brains I have been working on to go with an upcoming sequencer that also has d25 output on the sequencer and d25 input on the drum brains, so this would work great!
Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry�
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: "Colin f" <colin@colinfraser.com>
Sender: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:46:37 
To: <analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

 
> Please, not loosy 3,5 mm sockets.

A breakout box or modular panel can have whatever you prefer.
Trying to pick a single type of socket to suit everyone isn't easy.
 
> Regarding the sync issues, the multiplex seems a good 
> solution although I don't know if unquanticed CV outputs will 
> be available on the Cirklon (interesting from my point of 
> view). In that case, shall a fixed refresh period result in a 
> stepped CV output? (Thinking about a kindof LFO).

Unquantised outputs aren't available as such, but the resolution of the DACs
will be 12 or 16 bits.
At that level, the steps between values are very small.
There is still the possibility of zipper noise unless the output is filtered
at least to half the refresh/sample rate.
Such filtering needs to be switchable, to allow instantaneous changes of
values when large steps are wanted.
There's a scheme I have in mind for doing that, it's just a question of what
can fit on the CV I/O board.

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-15 by Richard Scott

switchable filtered CVs - hell yeah

generally I just want to add that, yes this whole CV issue is a hugely 
important aspect for me too. At this stage I wouldn't even buy a midi 
only sequencer however nice it was.

of course we still need midi  - some of us have Andromedas and nord 
modulars to feed  - but at this point midi is historical, CV and OSC are 
the future.... at least for me.

so go for it Colin - I think your efforts will be rewarded with sales. 
believe me a lot of those modular heads seem to have infinite money to 
spend on crazy ass sequencers and the like

Richard
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 7/15/10 6:46 PM, Colin f wrote:
>
>
>
>  > Please, not loosy 3,5 mm sockets.
>
> A breakout box or modular panel can have whatever you prefer.
> Trying to pick a single type of socket to suit everyone isn't easy.
>
>  > Regarding the sync issues, the multiplex seems a good
>  > solution although I don't know if unquanticed CV outputs will
>  > be available on the Cirklon (interesting from my point of
>  > view). In that case, shall a fixed refresh period result in a
>  > stepped CV output? (Thinking about a kindof LFO).
>
> Unquantised outputs aren't available as such, but the resolution of the DACs
> will be 12 or 16 bits.
> At that level, the steps between values are very small.
> There is still the possibility of zipper noise unless the output is filtered
> at least to half the refresh/sample rate.
> Such filtering needs to be switchable, to allow instantaneous changes of
> values when large steps are wanted.
> There's a scheme I have in mind for doing that, it's just a question of what
> can fit on the CV I/O board.
>
> Best regards,
> Colin Fraser
> Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
> http://www.sequentix.com
>
>

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-16 by Martin Naef

Quoting sequentix <colin@sequentix.com>:
> Is there any real value in having quarter inch or 3.5mm sockets on   
> the Cirklon rear panel ?
> The alternative is to have only a multi-pin connector, and require   
> an external breakout box or splitter cable.

Not sure how representative I am for the common user, but I'd be very  
well served with a small number of 1/4" jacks (2-4) to drive my  
analogue filter boxes (I can't be bothered to buy a MIDI-CV  
interface). Should I ever start building a larger analogue rig, I'd  
probably prefer a D25 cable to a separate patch-bay. I assume you  
stick to the TASCAM standard way of wiring the breakout cable so that  
lazy people can buy the cables off the shelf?

So my vote would be for an in-between solution: D25 for the power user  
and just enough 1/4" jacks for instant gratification without driving  
up the cost too much.

Martin

Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-16 by analogback

+1 for the D connector 
more cv gate outs the better imo
i would like to get rid of a few cv gate converters and simplify the wiring process.

Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-17 by r646z

Hi Colin,

I like the idea of a breakout box, maybe a 1U rack, and I especially like the idea if CV input (a S&H or a VCLFO fed into the Cirklon then FTS hmmm!!). It could be an advantage to fit a couple of 1/4" outputs on the rear, in addition to the D25, for anyone who only needed minor CV integration and didn't want to run to the extra cost of a breakout box.

Cheers
Roger






--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "sequentix" <colin@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Folks,
> 
> I've got the factory poised to start making Cirklon cases, just as soon as I make my mind up on one. last. detail...
> 
> Is there any real value in having quarter inch or 3.5mm sockets on the Cirklon rear panel ?
> The alternative is to have only a multi-pin connector, and require an external breakout box or splitter cable.
> 
> The largest number of individual sockets that could fit on the rear panel would be about 12.
> With a 25-way D connector, there could be up to 16 CV outs, and 8 gates.
> Or some other combination, possibly including some CV input.
> 
> If you're looking to pick up a Cirklon to integrate into an analogue setup, how would you see yourself using it ?
> 
> The most recent pre-production Cirklon has two channels of CV/gate on quarter inch sockets.
> It struck me that this doesn't really offer much advantage over a MIDI to CV convertor - the worst case latency over MIDI for two notes being 2ms, which is easily compensated for.
> For my own studio, my biggest timing issue was with the triggering via MIDI of my analogue percussion sounds.
> The problem there is that multiple hits on the same beat are spread out by at least 0.65ms per instrument over MIDI.
> The solution I came up with for that was to have Cirklon output a CV/trigger multiplex.
> A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
> I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a mere 23 separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is immediately obvious.
> 
> Let me know what you think.
> Preferably soon ;-)
> 
> Best regards,
> Colin Fraser
> Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
> http://www.sequentix.com
>

Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-17 by t_natalini

MIDI historical? CV the future? Um, yeah...MIDI is here to stay. 

Myself and I'm sure many others will be buying the Cirklon strictly as a MIDI sequencer.

-T

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, Richard Scott <richard_scott@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> important aspect for me too. At this stage I wouldn't even buy a midi 
> only sequencer however nice it was.
> 
> of course we still need midi  - some of us have Andromedas and nord 
> modulars to feed  - but at this point midi is historical, CV and OSC are 
> the future.... at least for me.

Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-17 by t_natalini

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, Paul Nagle <softroom@...> wrote:
>
> t_natalini wrote:
> > MIDI historical? CV the future? Um, yeah...MIDI is here to stay. 
> > 
> > Myself and I'm sure many others will be buying the Cirklon strictly as a MIDI sequencer.
> 
> That's what I told myself too. Then I heard the Cirklon doing 
> drum-machine tightness using an analogue-triggered drum module. No way 
> can you get so many MIDI notes to line up exactly, tightly like that due 
> to the serial nature of MIDI itself. (hence Cirklon has 5 MIDI outputs 
> which help reduce overall latency and unpredictability).

I do most of my drum programming triggering internal samples in an MPC4000. For external analog drums, I'm triggering Jomox M.Brane 11 and MBase 11 via audio from MPC audio outs. So already the dog's as far as timing and predictability.

If I decide to use the Cirklon for the Jomox modules, I plan to use a MIDI port per module so no big.

> 
> As for the analogue stuff... well, maybe one day you'll fancy trying it. 

Already enjoying Moog LP, DSI Prophet '08, Korg Monotron and Jomox modules. ;)

Cheers,

T

Re: [analogue-sequencer] Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-17 by Paul Nagle

t_natalini wrote:
> MIDI historical? CV the future? Um, yeah...MIDI is here to stay. 
> 
> Myself and I'm sure many others will be buying the Cirklon strictly as a MIDI sequencer.

That's what I told myself too. Then I heard the Cirklon doing 
drum-machine tightness using an analogue-triggered drum module. No way 
can you get so many MIDI notes to line up exactly, tightly like that due 
to the serial nature of MIDI itself. (hence Cirklon has 5 MIDI outputs 
which help reduce overall latency and unpredictability).

As for the analogue stuff... well, maybe one day you'll fancy trying it. 
Heh, I sound like a drug dealer! Anyway, thus endeth the advert. :)

regards,
-- 
Paul
---
http://www.softroom.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/WilyEPeyote

Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-17 by Tom Adam

Hi Colin,

I agree with the others on the D connector with breakout box.

This breakout box, will it require +/-15(12)V? If so I prefer to be able 
to buy just a PCB as I will fit it in my modular.
Maybe an extra MIDI out connection via this cable would be handy too, 
but not if this reduces the # of CV's.
How long can this cable be?

I also like the idea of some CV inputs. Especially sync to LFO would be 
nice.

Cheers,
ToAd
> On 7/15/10 6:46 PM, Colin f wrote:
>   
>>  > Please, not loosy 3,5 mm sockets.
>>
>> A breakout box or modular panel can have whatever you prefer.
>> Trying to pick a single type of socket to suit everyone isn't easy.
>>
>>  > Regarding the sync issues, the multiplex seems a good
>>  > solution although I don't know if unquanticed CV outputs will
>>  > be available on the Cirklon (interesting from my point of
>>  > view). In that case, shall a fixed refresh period result in a
>>  > stepped CV output? (Thinking about a kindof LFO).
>>
>> Unquantised outputs aren't available as such, but the resolution of the DACs
>> will be 12 or 16 bits.
>> At that level, the steps between values are very small.
>> There is still the possibility of zipper noise unless the output is filtered
>> at least to half the refresh/sample rate.
>> Such filtering needs to be switchable, to allow instantaneous changes of
>> values when large steps are wanted.
>> There's a scheme I have in mind for doing that, it's just a question of what
>> can fit on the CV I/O board.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Colin Fraser
>> Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
>> http://www.sequentix.com
>>
>>
>>     
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

-- 
ToAd
Tom.Adam@thebigear.be	
www.thebigear.be

RE: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-17 by Ditton33

Midi historical?

Made me chuckle. :)

I do agree there is a growing trend for home enthusuasts to drop a model or
two on the family car and instead build a 6x4ft wall of modular in their
attic or study.

Just because this is a growing trend, thanks to the wonderful companies out
there such as dotcom, does not mean it's "the future".

There's more than enough evidence of this on youtube. I'm surprised some of
these companies haven't created a webcam module. :)

Midi is still (generally speaking) the realm for people who want to actually
*do stuff* in the hardware world.

Though, granted, for drum modules CV is tight as a ducks...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com 
> >[mailto:analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> >Richard Scott
> >Sent: 15 July 2010 19:02
> >To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [analogue-sequencer] CV/gate quandary...
> >
> >of course we still need midi  - some of us have Andromedas 
> >and nord modulars to feed  - but at this point midi is 
> >historical, CV and OSC are the future.... at least for me.
> >
> >believe me a lot of those modular heads seem to have 
> >infinite money to spend on crazy ass sequencers and the like
> >

Re: [analogue-sequencer] Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-17 by Paul Nagle

t_natalini wrote:

> I do most of my drum programming triggering internal samples in an MPC4000. For external analog drums, I'm triggering Jomox M.Brane 11 and MBase 11 via audio from MPC audio outs. So already the dog's as far as timing and predictability.

Sounds good. You're definitely not underpowered in the triggering 
department. :)

-- 
Paul
---
http://www.softroom.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/WilyEPeyote

Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-18 by andytechman

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, Paul Nagle <softroom@...> wrote:

> That's what I told myself too. Then I heard the Cirklon doing 
> drum-machine tightness using an analogue-triggered drum module. No way 
> can you get so many MIDI notes to line up exactly, tightly like that due 
> to the serial nature of MIDI itself. 

Here's a video of the Cirklon in action with said drum module. Taken at last week's SDIY meet in Cambridge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_Fn-BQPUAY

Enjoy

Andy

Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-18 by duncan

>>stick to the TASCAM standard way of wiring the breakout cable so that
lazy people can buy the cables off the shelf?<<

that's a very good idea. making up your own breakout cable is probably not beyond folks who've built their own P3s, say, but not everyone would be comfortable with a d-type.
as regards the timing... midi's no use for percussion sounds, even with a dedicated midi port, because of its serial nature. if it ran faster, 10x faster, maybe. or if some of the extraneous messages could be removed... a channel-10-only port perhaps, with no CCs.....

I'm going to try the cirklon (when I get one!) via an alesis drum interface, see what that behaves like.

d.

RE: [analogue-sequencer] Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-18 by Colin f

> Here's a video of the Cirklon in action with said drum 
> module. Taken at last week's SDIY meet in Cambridge.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_Fn-BQPUAY

It was fortunate Ninestein didn't catch fire during the day, despite the
regulator heatsinks only being specced for the Scottish climate ;-)
I think I'm going to have to rebuild the 808/909 circuits in a bit less than
4U of full depth 19 inch rack.

The TRs 606, 808 and 909 all internally operate with 2ms timing resolution.
The point in time when they trigger their sounds will vary over a 2ms range
after the tempo tick.
But they trigger all the sounds to occur on the same beat at 'exactly' the
same time, within a range of a few microseconds.
MIDI can't put the start of each sound any closer together than two-thirds
of a millisecond.
IMO simultaneous triggering is very important for drum sounds, especially
electronic ones.
Multiple sounds on the same beat merge in different ways to form new sounds.
Triggering over MIDI, they always sound like a bunch of separate sounds
happening at roughly the same time.
The Cirklon CV output in mux mode is transmitting a sequence of 24 accent
voltages, and 24 trigger bits to the drum module, in a period of 1.6ms.
At the end of the refresh, all the triggers for that cycle are pulsed
simultaneously.

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com

Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-19 by IvanCU2

The TASCAM DB25 pinout is for balanced audio connections, so you would end up with eight TRS outputs if you use "off the shelf" DB25 to 1/4" plug cables.

Here is information on the standard:

http://www.tascam.com/i-474-232-128-0-66C9F1BE.pdf

To properly use a DB25 connector for CV and trigger outputs you would indeed need a special cable.  However, we could easily arrange to have some speciality cable companies such as Redco supply a specific Cirklon breakout cable.  That way people could order it directly.  Redco is in the USA but I'm sure a similar company could be found in the UK and the same arrangements made.

Ivan

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "duncan" <ferrograph@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> >>stick to the TASCAM standard way of wiring the breakout cable so that
> lazy people can buy the cables off the shelf?<<
> 
> that's a very good idea. making up your own breakout cable is probably not beyond folks who've built their own P3s, say, but not everyone would be comfortable with a d-type.
>

RE: [analogue-sequencer] Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-19 by Colin Fraser

> To properly use a DB25 connector for CV and trigger outputs 
> you would indeed need a special cable.

Actually, most of the DB25 cables you find will have all pins wired
straight-through.
They have to be to work with old Apple-style SCSI and PC parallel ports.
I probably wouldn't be using it if I couldn't get ready-made 2m cables for
less than 5ukp.
1 pin for ground leaves 24 for CV and gate.

You can also get IDC DB25 connectors, which would allow a Cirklon to connect
over a short and tidy length of ribbon cable into another, similarly sized
unit sitting directly above it in the rack.
For example, a 3U eurorack modular.

On the question of basic CV/gate outputs - you could easily knock up a DB25
to 4 x quarter-inch or 3.5mm loom.
Or you could probably get a few 3.5mm sockets into the shell of a DB25 plug,
in the way they used to make those MIDI expanders for the Atari ST serial
port.
So putting a small number of individual CV/gate sockets on the rear panel is
not really necessary.
And dropping them solves the problem of which size and make to use.

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com

Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-07-19 by IvanCU2

I meant in terms of using standard "Tascam wired" audio cables like this:

http://www.martinsound.com/pd_mcb.htm

These are standard cables that you can buy at most music stores.  But they won't work for the Cirklon application.

Certainly for DB25 to DB25 you could use computer cables.  And those would be handy to make custom cables too.

But for those wanting a DB25 to phone plug cable you could go with Redco or others.

Ivan


--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Colin Fraser" <colin@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>  
> > To properly use a DB25 connector for CV and trigger outputs 
> > you would indeed need a special cable.
> 
> Actually, most of the DB25 cables you find will have all pins wired
> straight-through.
> They have to be to work with old Apple-style SCSI and PC parallel ports.

Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-09-01 by chrispoops

Hi Colin,

Sorry that this is my first post.  I joined to learn more about the P3, but when I found out about the Sequentix I decided to hold out until it's released.

I don't want to get into MIDI's past, but at this point, we can certainly see that its future is limited.  Of course, almost nobody would build a nice sequencer without it today!  So MIDI stays.  But this is a flagship, boutique device, right?  I think we are seeing more and more people return to CV control because it is so precise and largely uncorruptible.  The biggest advantage of the modular sequencers is actually CV IN, but CV out is probably a close second. Whatever you can do to give users the option to get real CV precision on as many tracks as possible, please do it.

You need to make some compromises here and there.  That is your job, even when making rather elite hardware.  However, I think the best compromises to be made are in areas like a breakout box.  Stick to the best possible signal path; don't sacrifice there.  Don't stick us with MIDI timing, I urge you!  This is a world-class product and hopefully, everyone will be able to use it to the fullest of ITS ability!

Good luck with manufacturing, and thanks for the consideration.

-Chris

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "sequentix" <colin@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Folks,
> 
> I've got the factory poised to start making Cirklon cases, just as soon as I make my mind up on one. last. detail...
> 
> Is there any real value in having quarter inch or 3.5mm sockets on the Cirklon rear panel ?
> The alternative is to have only a multi-pin connector, and require an external breakout box or splitter cable.
> 
> The largest number of individual sockets that could fit on the rear panel would be about 12.
> With a 25-way D connector, there could be up to 16 CV outs, and 8 gates.
> Or some other combination, possibly including some CV input.
> 
> If you're looking to pick up a Cirklon to integrate into an analogue setup, how would you see yourself using it ?
> 
> The most recent pre-production Cirklon has two channels of CV/gate on quarter inch sockets.
> It struck me that this doesn't really offer much advantage over a MIDI to CV convertor - the worst case latency over MIDI for two notes being 2ms, which is easily compensated for.
> For my own studio, my biggest timing issue was with the triggering via MIDI of my analogue percussion sounds.
> The problem there is that multiple hits on the same beat are spread out by at least 0.65ms per instrument over MIDI.
> The solution I came up with for that was to have Cirklon output a CV/trigger multiplex.
> A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
> I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a mere 23 separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is immediately obvious.
> 
> Let me know what you think.
> Preferably soon ;-)
> 
> Best regards,
> Colin Fraser
> Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
> http://www.sequentix.com
>

Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-09-01 by chrispoops

Doh, so, my second post will hit some points I forgot in the first one! >_<;

First, I think a single channel of 1/4" CV out (pitch and gate) is sufficient; if you're going to build anything then I think you should go 1/4".  I mostly use banana, myself, but I think 1/4" are very reliable connectors that are also very easily and cheaply compatible with the most popular format (Euro).  You don't want to put 1/8" jacks on your quality sequencer, or you'll get a lot of bitching when they start to wobble.

Second, in case my first post wasn't clear, if you have the means to do CV in, by all means DO IT! :)  This simple feature will basically guarantee your machine a spot in the all-time sequencer hall of fame.  CV out is lots of fun and important but CV in (esp if you can support higher clock rates) is basically creating a whole new instrument out of your sequencer.  I'm sure you're quite familiar with this fact; and I'm 99% convinced that it would make converts of all your CV-doubting userbase now.  Reading your posts I can see you're already a fan of that kind of clock rate manip, but for the doubters I think it just has to be seen to be believed!  You could be the eye opener!

So, yeah, If you can also fit Clock in CV on the main box, well, that would be my ideal compromise, I think.  Clock in, Gate out, Pitch out, and DB25 connector to take it further..?  If possible, you will have certainly made one of the finest and most versatile sequencers ever made.

-Chris

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "chrispoops" <chrispoops@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi Colin,
> 
> Sorry that this is my first post.  I joined to learn more about the P3, but when I found out about the Sequentix I decided to hold out until it's released.
> 
> I don't want to get into MIDI's past, but at this point, we can certainly see that its future is limited.  Of course, almost nobody would build a nice sequencer without it today!  So MIDI stays.  But this is a flagship, boutique device, right?  I think we are seeing more and more people return to CV control because it is so precise and largely uncorruptible.  The biggest advantage of the modular sequencers is actually CV IN, but CV out is probably a close second. Whatever you can do to give users the option to get real CV precision on as many tracks as possible, please do it.
> 
> You need to make some compromises here and there.  That is your job, even when making rather elite hardware.  However, I think the best compromises to be made are in areas like a breakout box.  Stick to the best possible signal path; don't sacrifice there.  Don't stick us with MIDI timing, I urge you!  This is a world-class product and hopefully, everyone will be able to use it to the fullest of ITS ability!
> 
> Good luck with manufacturing, and thanks for the consideration.
> 
> -Chris
> 
> --- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "sequentix" <colin@> wrote:
> >
> > Folks,
> > 
> > I've got the factory poised to start making Cirklon cases, just as soon as I make my mind up on one. last. detail...
> > 
> > Is there any real value in having quarter inch or 3.5mm sockets on the Cirklon rear panel ?
> > The alternative is to have only a multi-pin connector, and require an external breakout box or splitter cable.
> > 
> > The largest number of individual sockets that could fit on the rear panel would be about 12.
> > With a 25-way D connector, there could be up to 16 CV outs, and 8 gates.
> > Or some other combination, possibly including some CV input.
> > 
> > If you're looking to pick up a Cirklon to integrate into an analogue setup, how would you see yourself using it ?
> > 
> > The most recent pre-production Cirklon has two channels of CV/gate on quarter inch sockets.
> > It struck me that this doesn't really offer much advantage over a MIDI to CV convertor - the worst case latency over MIDI for two notes being 2ms, which is easily compensated for.
> > For my own studio, my biggest timing issue was with the triggering via MIDI of my analogue percussion sounds.
> > The problem there is that multiple hits on the same beat are spread out by at least 0.65ms per instrument over MIDI.
> > The solution I came up with for that was to have Cirklon output a CV/trigger multiplex.
> > A simple external circuit turns that output into as many as 32 CV/gate pairs, in a fixed refresh period, with synchronised update of all the triggers, and essentially no CPU load on Cirklon, thanks to DMA.
> > I have a prototype of this running in my 808/909 clone (which has a mere 23 separate drum voices) and the improvement in tightness is immediately obvious.
> > 
> > Let me know what you think.
> > Preferably soon ;-)
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Colin Fraser
> > Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
> > http://www.sequentix.com
> >
>

RE: [analogue-sequencer] Re: CV/gate quandary...

2010-09-01 by Colin Fraser

> Don't stick us with MIDI timing, I urge you!
 
MIDI does have inherent latency, but that's usually over-shadowed by the
poor timing performance of PCs.
You'd think with multi-core processors running at a few gigahertz each,
they'd be pretty hot at real-time performance.
But you'll be lucky to see a PC sequencer output MIDI data with timing
accuracy any better than 2 or 3 milliseconds.
That's due to a couple of factors - user processes wanting to perform
regular events typically hook into a system timer with 1ms maximum
resolution.
Not a timer each either - they may have to share it with any other process
wanting to do some regular task.
Also that's just the average rate the process gets a callback at.
If Windows decides to start checking whether Adobe AIR needs an update the
instant before a tempo tick is going to happen, you can be confident it's
not going to happen right on time.
Then once the MIDI message has been generated, and passed through all the
layers of user process, kernel and driver, it finds itself waiting in a
queue for a USB bus that only gets serviced once every millisecond tops.
And these are best case figures.
If your integrated audio/MIDI app is running on a 5 millisecond timer event
to keep the audio buffers full, you might just discover that the developers
thought they'd be fine to roll MIDI handling into the same event, and your
average MIDI event is going to be 2.5 milliseconds out before driver layer
and serial latency enter the picture.
2.5 milliseconds is about 1 tick of a 192 ppqn clock at 120 bpm.
If your PC sequencer claims to offer better tempo resolution than 192 ppqn,
it is having you on.

If you run a monosynth from a MIDI to CV convertor on a Cirklon MIDI bus of
its own, you will not hear any timing disadvantage compared to a direct
CV/gate connection.
You gain the ability to send multiple CCs over a single cable, keeping the
spaghetti local to the synth or completely hidden with a good retrofit.
When I first implemented CV/gate on Cirklon, I re-wired my minimoog to use
it, but it pretty soon insisted on going back to MIDI.
A single MIDI cable gives me pitch, filter and gate control. I can use
legato to control glide, with CC control of glide time.
Re-trigger mode is selectable at the convertor because MIDI sends a new note
on even when the gate stays 'high'.
For CV/gate, I'd need to be setting that at the sequencer end.

MIDI is usually the only option for driving hardware polysynths.
The spread of MIDI note ons over time becomes an issue with rigidly timed
chords using highly percussive sounds.
But there's no way round that - it's part of the synth. Quite often the MIDI
latency is nothing compared to the internal latency on the keyboard matrix
scan.

Triggering drum machines is the one area where MIDI really falls down.
They have nothing but highly percussive sounds.
The nature of these sounds requires that, if two or more of them are to be
triggered at 'the same time', you really want them to be at the same time.
That time can slop about quite a bit - for example, all the classic Roland
drum machines, 606, 808 and 909, have their internal trigger timing
quantised to a fixed 2ms clock.
The triggers for any given clock tick can be sent anywhere from almost bang
on time to 2 milliseconds late.
Same thing applies to the 303's internal sequencer.
But all the triggers fire at exactly the same instant, and that gives the
combined sound of multiple drums a precise character that really adds to
their impact.
The multiplex mode of the CV output on Cirklon achives the same result.

I could also point out here that USB-MIDI has the potential to greatly
improve the simultaneousness of multiple triggers.
USB is a polled interface, and Windows will never poll it any faster than
1ms intervals, but you can get more note ons than you are likely to need
into a single USB packet.
I've done tests with a VSTi 909 clone running drum patterns A/B'd with my
909 running the same pattern over serial MIDI, and once the fixed latency of
the PC audio interface is tuned out, the timing performance of the VSTi is
better than the real thing, simply because all drums triggered 'at the same
time', really are.

Best regards,
Colin Fraser
Sequentix Music Systems Ltd
http://www.sequentix.com

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