Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

> I got a BControl Nano and I would like to know if BCmanager works with 
> this device.

No.

> If not, is there any editor for the Nano?

No idea.

> I know it has only 4 knobs and 8 buttons but configuring 99 presets 
> manually is really a nightmare.

Someone asked about the BCN44 before in this group (subject "BCN44 and
.tx record"; Sep 16, 2008): see my reply to that message.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:
>
> > I got a BControl Nano and I would like to know if BCmanager works
with 
> > this device.
> 
> No.

I've still got a handfull of Nanos here around, too. Hey Mark, if you
could add support for the BNC44 to your Editor, I would give you one
of my units for free, as a kind of donation!

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "ivaasura" <Sunrider7@...> wrote:
> I've still got a handfull of Nanos here around, too. Hey Mark, if you
> could add support for the BNC44 to your Editor, I would give you one
> of my units for free, as a kind of donation!

Hm, I don't know... The Nano can't be that expensive, so would it even
be worth the shipping costs?

(Actually, I seem to remember that it wasn't even up for sale here in
the Netherlands a few months ago, at least not at "my" music equipment
shop. So does Behringer still sell them in any country?)

When someone asked about the Nano last year, I downloaded Behringer's
documentation about it, and concluded that it would probably be a lot
of work to develop an editor for it. I gathered that it has a rather
different data structure (number of presets etc.), so I would first
have to figure out its MIDI protocols (which took me MONTHS for the
BCF and BCR), and then basically write an almost completely new editor
for it - taking another few months. So, whereas I am tempted by your
offer (being the madman that I am), I'm afraid I must decline - unless
some really wealthy benefactor turns up. Where are you when we need
you, Bill Gates?

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:

> Hm, I don't know... The Nano can't be that expensive, so would it even
> be worth the shipping costs?

We are neighbours, so it shouldn't coast so much. I got the BCN44s
very cheap from eBay...

> I gathered that it has a rather
> different data structure (number of presets etc.), so I would first
> have to figure out its MIDI protocols (which took me MONTHS for the
> BCF and BCR), and then basically write an almost completely new editor
> for it - taking another few months. 

Okay, I see, than just a single BCN44 would be a rather lousy
donation. ;-)

> So, whereas I am tempted by your
> offer (being the madman that I am), I'm afraid I must decline - unless
> some really wealthy benefactor turns up. Where are you when we need
> you, Bill Gates?

Yeah, I could use some of his bucks, too... ;-)

I've given your request for BC Manager support of the BCN44 some
further thought. I stand by my previous remark that "full" support
would probably be far too much work. However, if we take it one step
at a time, it may be possible to arrive at some limited support
without too much effort.

As a first step, if the BCN uses (a variant of) BCL (the BCF/BCR2000's
control language embedded in SysEx messages), it should not be too
difficult to write a routine that converts the BCN's SysEx messages
(i.e. a "BCL chain") to text format (and back, of course). In that way
you'll at least be able to edit the presets in text format. (Or does
such a utility already exists?)

So if you could send me a syx dump of all the memory presets (and a
separate dump of a "temporary" preset - if I understand the manual
correctly), I might see what I can do. (If you're lucky, I might even
be able to incorporate this conversion routine in the upcoming version
of BC Manager, which I hope to release in February.)

By the way, here's a related, rather shocking case of "spot the
differences":

The Behringer's BCN44 web page in 2005:

Here's a super-compact universal MIDI controller whose miniscule size
doesn't stop it from being a formidable contender for both studio and
pure controller applications. You get 4 freely assignable push
encoders with status LEDs, 4 freely assignable buttons with dual
functions. Assignment of the panel elements is done either manually or
via learn mode. The BCN44 can be easily connected to any
computer/expander and similar equipment using the standard MIDI In/Out
connectors. 99 user-programmable presets will help unleash your full
creativity, and you will soon be able to download a free
editor/librarian software from our website in order to administer the
presets even more comfortably. For the ultimate in ease of operation
and mobility, the BCN44 can run either on battery power or on the
included power adapter. Compact to the max and a price that simply
blows you away! 

The same web page 3 1/2 years later:

Here's a super-compact universal MIDI controller whose miniscule size
doesn't stop it from being a formidable contender for both studio and
pure controller applications. You get 4 freely assignable push
encoders with status LEDs, 4 freely assignable buttons with dual
functions. Assignment of the panel elements is done either manually or
via learn mode. The BCN44 can be easily connected to any
computer/expander and similar equipment using the standard MIDI In/Out
connectors. 99 user-programmable presets will help unleash your full
creativity. For the ultimate in ease of operation and mobility, the
BCN44 can run either on battery power or on the included power
adapter. Compact to the max and a price that simply blows you away!

The difference: the bastards have removed "and you will soon be able
to download a free editor/librarian software from our website in order
to administer the presets even more comfortably". Imagine someone
actually having bought a BCN44 BECAUSE of this announcement! Anyway,
it's clear that BC-Edit for the BCF/BCR2000 isn't the only piece of
software that Behringer have stopped developing!

A few weeks ago I googled the name of the developer of the
BCF/BCR2000, but only found a karate expert offering lessons. If this
is indeed the same guy, he may have quit Behringer and started a new
career, leaving us all in the lurch... :(

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:
> The difference: the bastards have removed "and you will soon be able
> to download a free editor/librarian software from our website in order
> to administer the presets even more comfortably". Imagine someone
> actually having bought a BCN44 BECAUSE of this announcement! Anyway,
> it's clear that BC-Edit for the BCF/BCR2000 isn't the only piece of
> software that Behringer have stopped developing!

They even printed it on the retail boxes, from which they couldn't
remove it... ;-)

> In answer to Mark's request, I made the SysEx Dump of single and full 
> presets:
>  
> http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/demencialex/NanoBCN44AllDump.syx
>  
> http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/demencialex/NanoBCN44SingleDump.syx
>  
> I hope this will help you.

Thanks! I've downloaded them, and will get back to you when I've
studied them.

Mark.

I've looked at Alex' BCN44 syx files.

To start with the big news: No BCL!
So the Nano does NOT communicate via text lines embedded in sysex
messages, as the BCF/BCR do. Instead, the Nano sends straightforward
binary data sequences.

The structure of the single ("temporary"(?)) preset dump is very
simple: one sysex message containing a sequence of 12 sub-sequences,
one for each element: the "turn" and "push" functions of the 4 push
encoders, plus the 4 separate buttons.

The dump of all presets actually starts with the temporary preset as
well. Then there are the 99 memory presets: each memory preset is cut
up into 12 separate sysex messages. (Incidentally, the address format
of these messages is VERY peculiar and took me several hours to
understand, but I won't bore you with the details.)

As yet, I understand only part of the structure of the byte sequences
for the individual elements:
Each element has 19 bytes. The first byte indicates the message type
(off, PC, CC etc.), the second is the channel, etc.
Further testing would be necessary to figure out the complete format. 
(That's the one drawback of binary data: without a data spec, you have
to figure out the bits and bytes one by one yourself by trial and
error - I never thought I'd ever say anything positive about BCL, haha!)

One other thing is clear: unlike the BCF/BCR, the Nano does not have
data for a preset as such (i.e. apart from its 12 elements); so
there's no "Learn" message, no Snapshot on/off setting, etc.

So all in all it can't be too difficult for me to write a basic editor
for the Nano, once I know the complete format for the preset elements.
(As I see things now, it's probably easiest to write an independent
editor for the Nano rather than integrate it into BC Manager, since
the data formats are almost totally different.)

However, I don't have a Nano myself, so I'd have to pester Alex (or
other Nano owners) with questions like "can you set up a button with
such and such parameters, and send me the preset dump". And I would
also like to know if the Nano responds to "other" SysEx messages, such
as an Identity Request. All this would amount to a frustratingly slow
process, lasting several weeks or longer.

Obviously it would be much easier if I had a Nano myself - hopefully I
could then perform the relevant tests in a few hours. However, living
in the Netherlands I probably can't even buy one: a 2006 Behringer
promotional booklet states that the Nano is "not available in Europe".
I don't know if that is still the case, but it would explain why my
local shop doesn't sell it. (By the way: does anybody know WHY
Behringer didn't/don't sell it in Europe? Are they so ashamed of the
Nano that they won't let their "friends" in Europe see it...?)

Anyway, I would now be willing to take up ivaasura's offer of sending
me one of his/her/its Nanos as a kind of donation for an editor. At
the moment I'm VERY busy finishing the next version of BC Manager and
all associated documentation, but once that is done, I can probably
spare a weekend or so to write a basic editor for the Nano.

Finally a "logistical" question: should we start a separate Yahoo
group for the Nano (assuming that there isn't one already - I haven't
checked)? I can think of arguments in favor of staying in the BC2000
group (effectively expanding it) and arguments in favor of starting a
separate group. Maybe this also depends on the number of people owning
Nanos: if the BC2000 group is going to get "swamped" with discussions
about the Nano, people only owning BCFs/BCRs might not be too pleased.
My current intuition is that we can stay in the BC2000 group, but I'm
open to other views.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:

> Anyway, I would now be willing to take up ivaasura's offer of sending
> me one of his/her/its Nanos as a kind of donation for an editor. 

I've got 5 of these units, but I just use one of it in the moment.
Based on Azymbol's BCF/BCR modding, I am thinking of joining two of
them together vertically.

An editor is not really necessary for this small thing, but it would
be cool, if one could copy and paste already existing controller
assignments from the BCR/BCF presets to the BCN, for example some of
the MCU/Live commands etc. 

It seems, the cheapest shipping from Moffenland to the Netherlands
would be with a DHL packet.

Where shall I send the BCN44?

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "ivaasura" <Sunrider7@...> wrote:
> An editor is not really necessary for this small thing, but it would
> be cool, if one could copy and paste already existing controller
> assignments from the BCR/BCF presets to the BCN, for example some of
> the MCU/Live commands etc. 

Haha, you got me there! Direct transfer of button/encoder settings is
basically the ONLY argument in favor of BCN support in BC Manager.
Poor me, hoping to get away with a simple, SEPARATE editor...
Anyway, I'll see how things work out.

Mark.

Alex wrote:
> I am very happy to hear about an editor for the Nano. Don't hesitate to 
> ask me the syx files you need. I will configure it manually as you tell 
> me and I will send you the new dump files.
> If you want you can contact with me by email for not boring the rest of 
> the group members with the testing process.

Thanks for the offer!
However, if ivaasura's BCN44 gets through to me, I won't have to
bother you.

> It is a good idea to create a new group for the Nano I you suggested.

Well, maybe we should start a group then. However, I'm unsuited as a
group owner or moderator, since I'm far too busy to check my email
every day - which is something definitely required of the
moderator(s), because they have to judge applicant members. But if
there is someone willing to become a moderator, I think it's a good
idea too. Anyone?

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@...>
> ...(Incidentally, the address format of these messages is VERY 
peculiar and took me several hours to understand, but I won't bore you 
with the details.)

Do ! I am really interrested in these details !

> Further testing would be necessary to figure out the complete 
format. (That's the one drawback of binary data: without a data spec, 
you have to figure out the bits and bytes one by one yourself by trial 
and error

I have a Nano also. If you want, I might do this little exploration by 
changing values on the BCN and sending patches to MixiOx sysex window.
I can then try to create some Bitmapping document from that experiment.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:

> Haha, you got me there! Direct transfer of button/encoder settings is
> basically the ONLY argument in favor of BCN support in BC Manager.
> Poor me, hoping to get away with a simple, SEPARATE editor...

Well, copy & paste should also work between 2 separate editors.
Mark, just tell me, to which location I have to send the NANO...

Iva Asura

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bernard.escaillas" <escaillas@...> wrote:
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@>
> > I won't bore you with the details.
> 
> Do ! I am really interrested in these details !

Hm, I can see another MIDI implementation document on the horizon...
but hopefully a much smaller and simpler one than the one I wrote for
the BCF/BCR!

As to my specific remark about the strangeness of the blocks of the 99
memory presets: if I'm not mistaken, the two address bytes are
inserted IN THE MIDDLE of the "normal" data structure for the
button/encoder, and I think a single bit of the last byte of the
"normal" data structure is "pinched" to provide additional addressing.

And the addresses themselves don't say 0 for preset 0 and 1 for preset
1 etc., but start at some idiotic number (so these addresses probably
indicate the actual internal memory address at which the presets are
stored).

I warned you it would be boring...
 
> I have a Nano also. If you want, I might do this little exploration by 
> changing values on the BCN and sending patches to MixiOx sysex window.
> I can then try to create some Bitmapping document from that experiment.
>

Thanks for the offer! - but if the deal with ivaasura works out, I
won't have to bother you.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "ivaasura" <Sunrider7@...> wrote:
> Well, copy & paste should also work between 2 separate editors.

Yes, but then I'd have to use the Windows clipboard, which I have
never done before for binary data - I have no idea how complicated
that is. But anyway, I'll first write a basic stand-alone editor with
the relevant data windows (i.e. a preset table and button/encoder
dialog boxes), and then I'll decide whether I integrate these windows
into BC Manager, or expand the stand-alone editor.

> Mark, just tell me, to which location I have to send the NANO...

Ah...! Didn't you get the message I sent to you directly (at almost
exactly the same time as my reply yesterday), stating my address? (The
message's subject was "BCN44" if I remember correctly - can it have
been intercepted by a spam killer or so?) I don't want the whole world
to know my address for the rest of time, you see...
I'll try to find out if I made a mistake, and if necessary send you
the address again this evening from my home.

Mark.

Well... i already started yesterday.

I am almost done with the single patch message structure.
And surely the 'midi engineer' at Behringer was drunk the day he wrote 
the midi specifications for the BCN ! ;))

For example, 14 bits values are spanned on three bytes:
- 1 byte contains bits 1 to 7,
- 1 byte contains bits 9 to 14,
- at the end of the structure, 1 byte contains bit 8 (mixed up with 
other flag bits)  !!

Another exemple, some value flags are 0 for 'On' and 1 for 'Off'..

I will try to finish that part this evening or tomorow and i will post 
the document here.

:(

I have tried to send all kind of sysex messages to the BCN to request 
ID or Data. I have tried to use the BCR/BCF format with universal id 
(7F) or BCN id (17)...
But the beast remains silent.
At the same time, my BCR answers correctly.

I have tried also the kind of message Behringer used for 
DSP/Multieffect devices ; with no success.

I begin to wonder if the BCN is even capable of answering to sysex...
That would be a bad news for developping an editor.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bernard.escaillas" <escaillas@...> wrote:
> I am almost done with the single patch message structure.
> And surely the 'midi engineer' at Behringer was drunk the day he wrote 
> the midi specifications for the BCN ! ;))

> For example, 14 bits values are spanned on three bytes:
> - 1 byte contains bits 1 to 7,
> - 1 byte contains bits 9 to 14,
> - at the end of the structure, 1 byte contains bit 8 (mixed up with 
> other flag bits)  !!

Yep, that's totally in line with what I found - I was just as shocked
as you! It seems like a case of very coarse patching: "hey, I need
another address bit - oh well, I'll just pinch it from a data byte"...

> Another exemple, some value flags are 0 for 'On' and 1 for 'Off'..

Ah! Obviously I couldn't have discovered that from just looking at the
syx files Alex sent me.

> I will try to finish that part this evening or tomorow and i will post 
> the document here.

Thanks a lot!

If things go well, I'll receive a BCN generously donated by ivaasura
in the next few days, so that will make it even easier for me to write
a basic editor. I just don't know when - the new version of BC Manager
is currently in its final stages, so I'll probably postpone the BCN
editor until after the release of the new version of BC Manager.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bernard.escaillas" <escaillas@...> wrote:
> I have tried to send all kind of sysex messages to the BCN to request 
> ID or Data. I have tried to use the BCR/BCF format with universal id 
> (7F) or BCN id (17)...
> But the beast remains silent.
> At the same time, my BCR answers correctly.

Well, that seems to put paid to that idea. In a perverse sense that's
actually GOOD news for me - it will make writing the editor easier,
but really it's a pity.

However, this lack of "peripheral MIDI features" doesn't really
surprise me, given the fact that they've also stripped the BCN of any
preset data (like "send snapshot on/off" etc.).

> I begin to wonder if the BCN is even capable of answering to sysex...
> That would be a bad news for developping an editor.

Do you mean you can't send a "data request" message to the BCN? That
wouldn't be NICE, but not disastrous: the user will then simply have
to perform the preset dump from the BCN to the editor manually. (It's
the same with the Behringer FCB1010 foot controller, if I remember
correctly.)
(I assume you DON'T mean that the BCN doesn't receive the very preset
dumps it SENDS? That at least should be possible.)

Mark.

> This is the only info I found in the manual about receiving SysEx dumps:
>  
> *Please keep in mind that SysEx dumps can only be received on the
device 
> ID number to which they were sent!*
>  
> *To receive a SysEx dump, no adjustments on the unit whatsoever are 
> necessary. If you send a single preset to the B-CONTROL, the data is 
> stored in temporary memory and has to be stored into a preset if you 
> wish to store it premanently.*
>  
> *ATTENTION: if you send an "All Dump" to the B-CONTROL, the entire 
> contents of its memory are immediately overwritten! You will not be 
> asked to confirm your choice, and there is no memory safeguard funtion!*

Yes, you're totally right: this means that "single" and "all" dumps TO
the BCN should work. It's just that I was getting a bit worried after
Bernard's last message - in suggesting this "worst-case" scenario I
was just checking whether I had understood his words correctly.

Mark.

I know the BCN can receive a sysex message of type 'dump'.

I was speaking of an undocumented message of type 'Request' to ask 
the bcn to send a dump. Most midi device have that (except my 
Novation Drum Station :( ).

Anyway, i have just uploaded a pdf document ( in files / documents ) 
with my first exploration of the BCN sysex implementation.

There are several points not solved yet :
- the request messages that would trigger the BCN to send a dump
- the param messages that would allow to change a single item of patch
- the values appearing here and there in the dump that have no logic 
and not tied to any know parameter. Either it is only uninitialized 
memory area with random value (booo, bad programming pratice) or 
there are some undocumented parameters set only in the factory. Don't 
ask why but i feel it is the first solution...

In case i have sent a mail to Behringer tech support. They might as 
well find the orignal BCN specification with the MIDI implemention... 
let's cross fingers.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bernard.escaillas" <escaillas@...> wrote:
> I know the BCN can receive a sysex message of type 'dump'.
> I was speaking of an undocumented message of type 'Request' to ask 
> the bcn to send a dump. Most midi device have that (except my 
> Novation Drum Station :( ).

OK, that's a relief - I was just trying to make sure I had understood
you correctly.

> Anyway, i have just uploaded a pdf document ( in files / documents ) 
> with my first exploration of the BCN sysex implementation.

Thanks! I'll check it out.

> There are several points not solved yet :
> - the request messages that would trigger the BCN to send a dump
> - the param messages that would allow to change a single item of patch

From what you've told me I get the impression that you've tested
things pretty thoroughly, so my guess is that indeed no request
messages etc. exist.

> - the values appearing here and there in the dump that have no logic 
> and not tied to any know parameter. Either it is only uninitialized 
> memory area with random value (booo, bad programming pratice) or 
> there are some undocumented parameters set only in the factory. Don't 
> ask why but i feel it is the first solution...

Haha, I've come to expect ANYTHING from Behringer.

> In case i have sent a mail to Behringer tech support. They might as 
> well find the orignal BCN specification with the MIDI implemention... 
> let's cross fingers.

Do you think they've GOT a specs document, AND are willing to share it
with us? I doubt it (on both counts), but let's cross fingers indeed...

I'll see if there's anything I can find out when ivaasura's BCN
arrives by post.

Mark.