Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

Hi folks,

I have a big problem, as my mentioned controllers are influencing each other in cubase. I semms to be a kind of MIDI feedback problem. The motorized fader is hanging, when BCR has a programm loaded, with Volume command assigned to a knob. 
Example: The volume midi command is sent from faderport to cubase, routes through the program to BCR and back to cubase, through it again to the Faderport and I get that delayed command onthe fader
The result is a stucked motorfader. Sometimes the fader is moving down without me touching anything!! The track stops by itself and several other bugs like this!! Semms as if more than one parameters are influencing each other. 
I know, that I could take out these Parameters from the BCR set, but a more elegant way was preferred.


Any hint?

Greetings,

tonmanns

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Uwe" <tonmanns@...> wrote:
> I have a big problem, as my mentioned controllers are influencing each other in cubase. I semms to be a kind of MIDI feedback problem. The motorized fader is hanging, when BCR has a programm loaded, with Volume command assigned to a knob. 
> Example: The volume midi command is sent from faderport to cubase, routes through the program to BCR and back to cubase, through it again to the Faderport and I get that delayed command onthe fader
> The result is a stucked motorfader. Sometimes the fader is moving down without me touching anything!! The track stops by itself and several other bugs like this!! Semms as if more than one parameters are influencing each other. 
> I know, that I could take out these Parameters from the BCR set, but a more elegant way was preferred.
> 
> Any hint?

It could be anything: Cubase might produce a loopback (but I don't know Cubase, so that's just a wild guess), or the BCR might be in an inappropriate Operating Mode, etc.

But before I start making all kind of suggestions that don't apply to your situation: can you be more specific about your setup?
For instance:
Which operating system are you using?
In which Operating Mode (S/U-1/2/3/4) is your BCR?
How do all MIDI connections run exactly?
What's the content of the BCR preset?

Mark.

Rodrigo Borrego Bernab�ffffe9 schrieb:
>   * But I also want that if I press the button over the fader 1 the
> synths B and C get muted. Then if I press the button over the fader 2
> the synths A and C get muted but the synth B will start sound again.
> 
> How can get this? Is it possible? Thanks in advance.

You need to send several Volume CC messages at once from each button (or
whatever MIDI message your synths require to mute/unmute them). I don't
think it is possible to set this up on the BCF itself but you can use
the BC manager software for that.

You need to define a custom output for the buttons. See section 14.4 of
the BC manager manual for more information.

Chris

2011/1/10 Rodrigo Borrego Bernabÿffffe9 <rorro_dnd@...>
>   * But I also want that if I press the button over the fader 1 the synths B and C get muted. Then if I press the button over the fader 2 the synths A and C get muted but the synth B will start sound again.

Recently I was thinking about something similar for my setup: master
kbd -> BCr2K -> some E-mu modules + Korg Wavestation. It is possible I
think for E-mu boxes, since they can receive SysEx for so-called Multi
(multitimbral configuration), so I can send SysEx that would turn
appropriate MIDI channels On/Off. No idea yet, how to achieve it with
Wavestation though.

Can you be more explicit about the synths you want to control that way?

Regards,
Bruno

El 10/01/2011, a las 20:55, Bruno <brunorc@...> escribió:

> Can you be more explicit about the synths you want to control that way?
> 
> Regards,
> Bruno

A Korg Triton Rack
A Roland XV-5050
A Roland XP-30
An Emu P2K*
A Korg NS5R*

*Not sure if I'm going to include this synth in my live rack. 

Rodri

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:
>
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Uwe" <tonmanns@> wrote:
> > I have a big problem, as my mentioned controllers are influencing each other in cubase. I semms to be a kind of MIDI feedback problem. The motorized fader is hanging, when BCR has a programm loaded, with Volume command assigned to a knob. 
> > Example: The volume midi command is sent from faderport to cubase, routes through the program to BCR and back to cubase, through it again to the Faderport and I get that delayed command onthe fader
> > The result is a stucked motorfader. Sometimes the fader is moving down without me touching anything!! The track stops by itself and several other bugs like this!! Semms as if more than one parameters are influencing each other. 
> > I know, that I could take out these Parameters from the BCR set, but a more elegant way was preferred.
> > 
> > Any hint?
> 
> It could be anything: Cubase might produce a loopback (but I don't know Cubase, so that's just a wild guess), or the BCR might be in an inappropriate Operating Mode, etc.
> 
> But before I start making all kind of suggestions that don't apply to your situation: can you be more specific about your setup?
> For instance:
> Which operating system are you using?
> In which Operating Mode (S/U-1/2/3/4) is your BCR?
> How do all MIDI connections run exactly?
> What's the content of the BCR preset?
> 
> Mark.
>


Hi Mark,

ok, I am running Cubase 5 under WinXP 32bit SP3, The BCR was in S1 mode when it occured ( I switched to S3 and S4 for testing, but only works partially)
BCR is connected to I/O Port 8 of my MIDEX 8, the Faderport is connected via USB.
The present setup is "Cubase Channel Control by Staffi" because it gives instant access to the EQs and sends( I eventually took out the parameters, that are present with the faderport to avoid the loopback symptom, but it still does not run smoothly).
Switching to S4 helped, that the bcr parameters don´t influence the presonus amymore, but changing a volume value on the bcr ends up in a level jump when changing it on the presonus now, because it didn´t react on bcr movement before and starts from an other level. A bit complicated, isn´t it?!

I  tried to disable the commands on the bcr that are not necessary and already covered by the presonus faderport, but Cubase still stops randomly.

Any clue, anybody..?

tonmanns

2011/1/10 Croppa H. Chicken <rorro_dnd@...>:
> El 10/01/2011, a las 20:55, Bruno <brunorc@...> escribió:
>
>> Can you be more explicit about the synths you want to control that way?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bruno
>
> A Korg Triton Rack
> A Roland XV-5050
> A Roland XP-30
> An Emu P2K*
> A Korg NS5R*

They all look modern enough to support turning on/off MIDI per
specific channel@interface. That's definitely the case of P2K (the
only one I own from this list), but not sure if I would be able to try
it out thru BCR2K before the weekend - currently I'm refurbishing my
"studio", so everything is disconnected and stuffed in one corner.

You may want to try sending this SysEx from BCR2K (or better from MIDI
Ox or a similar software, for the beginning) to your P2K:

F0 18 0F xx 55 01 04 01 01 yy 00 07 01 00 00 F7, where
 - xx is your P2K's SysEx ID in hex, starting from 0
 - yy is the MIDI channel (e.g. 00 represents channel 1 at the interface A)

It should turn off "MIDI enable" for the specified channel. Definitely
shouldn't blow your module out, nor erase its sounds, but backup first
(standard disclaimer follows).

HTH,
Bruno

On 10.01.2011 23:09, Bruno wrote:
> They all look modern enough to support turning on/off MIDI per
> specific channel@interface.[...] You may want to try sending this 
> SysEx from BCR2K [...]
> F0 18 0F xx 55 01 04 01 01 yy 00 07 01 00 00 F7
> [...] It should turn off "MIDI enable" for the specified channel.

Why so complicated? Wouldn't it be sufficient for his use case to send
Volume CCs to mute/unmute the synths?

Chris

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Arndt <chris.arndt@...> wrote:
> Why so complicated? Wouldn't it be sufficient for his use case to send
> Volume CCs to mute/unmute the synths?

A button can only send FIXED values.
So if a button uses the same CC# (e.g. #7 = Main Volume) as its corresponding fader, then pressing that button ignores the current value of the fader, which is probably undesired. (You'd have to re-touch the fader to re-send its value.)

So it's much better to leave Main Volume to the faders, and find a DIFFERENT parameter (CC, NRPN or SysEx) that can independently mute/unmute each synth/channel.

By the way: another, cosmetic problem is how to make 3 (or more) buttons work like "radiobuttons", i.e. only the LED of the most recently pressed one being lit at any moment. I can't think of a way to do this, actually.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Uwe" <tonmanns@...> wrote:
> ok, I am running Cubase 5 under WinXP 32bit SP3, The BCR was in S1 mode when it occured ( I switched to S3 and S4 for testing, but only works partially)
> BCR is connected to I/O Port 8 of my MIDEX 8, the Faderport is connected via USB.
> The present setup is "Cubase Channel Control by Staffi" because it gives instant access to the EQs and sends( I eventually took out the parameters, that are present with the faderport to avoid the loopback symptom, but it still does not run smoothly).
> Switching to S4 helped, that the bcr parameters don´t influence the presonus amymore, but changing a volume value on the bcr ends up in a level jump when changing it on the presonus now, because it didn´t react on bcr movement before and starts from an other level. A bit complicated, isn´t it?!

The fact that the BCR was in S-1 probably explains your original feedback problem: as the diagram in Behringer's BCF/BCR manual shows, in S-1 anything sent to the BCR's MIDI IN is passed on to MIDI OUT A and B/THRU, which is undesired in a situation like yours, where Cubase is both at MIDI IN and MIDI OUT A (or B/THRU).

In a bidirectional connection with Cubase you should definitely use S-4 (and only MIDI OUT A, not B/THRU). (S-3 would be possible too, but only via MIDI OUT B/THRU.)

> I  tried to disable the commands on the bcr that are not necessary and already covered by the presonus faderport, but Cubase still stops randomly.

Can you isolate this problem? Is it due to some MIDI feedback loop, or is it simply Cubase itself?
For instance: does this still happen when the BCR and/or Faderport are switched off?

---------------------------

It may indeed be a good idea to have EITHER the BCR OR the Faderport control a particular parameter, to avoid interference and jumps.

On the other hand, you might try to "integrate" the BCR and the Faderport via a setup with virtual MIDI ports (e.g. MIDI Yoke). You could then run MIDI-OX in the background to connect Cubase, the Faderport and the BCR in a triangle, where each of the three sends data to both the other devices. This would guarantee total parameter synchronization.

One other advantage of a setup via MIDI Yoke would be that you could insert a MIDI diagnostics program (e.g. MIDI-OX, MIDI Tools or BC Manager) into any connection between Cubase, the Faderport and the BCR, so that you can find out exactly which messages are sent when.
For instance, this might help you to find the cause of the random Cubase stops you're experiencing.

Hope this helps,
Mark.

> The fact that the BCR was in S-1 probably explains your original feedback problem: as the diagram in Behringer's BCF/BCR manual shows, in S-1 anything sent to the BCR's MIDI IN is passed on to MIDI OUT A and B/THRU, which is undesired in a situation like yours, where Cubase is both at MIDI IN and MIDI OUT A (or B/THRU).
> 
> In a bidirectional connection with Cubase you should definitely use S-4 (and only MIDI OUT A, not B/THRU). (S-3 would be possible too, but only via MIDI OUT B/THRU.)

Yepp, I can confirm, that S-4 works propperly now. After totally removing doubbled controllers fom the BCR, it runs more smoothly

 > It may indeed be a good idea to have EITHER the BCR OR the Faderport control a particular parameter, to avoid interference and jumps.


this was the solution!

> On the other hand, you might try to "integrate" the BCR and the Faderport via a setup with virtual MIDI ports (e.g. MIDI Yoke). You could then run MIDI-OX in the background to connect Cubase, the Faderport and the BCR in a triangle, where each of the three sends data to both the other devices. This would guarantee total parameter synchronization.


I tried that today for several hours, but got lost with it and turned to the seperated setup finally. 

> One other advantage of a setup via MIDI Yoke would be that you could insert a MIDI diagnostics program (e.g. MIDI-OX, MIDI Tools or BC Manager) into any connection between Cubase, the Faderport and the BCR, so that you can find out exactly which messages are sent when.


I implemented the MIDI monitor in Cubase to get a clue of what is going on. Seems to run flawless for the moment...

Thanks a lot for your help.

Greetings from Germany,

Uwe Manns