Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

HI ALL,
today I was mapping some Reaktor ensembles to BCR2k and I noticed that some buttons act strange, like a button would activate/dis-activate others.
For example Button #7, (both upper and lower) turn on/off buttons 2,3,5?
At the same time, 3 buttons go on/off
Also my preset switching is a bit odd, sometimes it will not change presets, it will go preset for example: 9,8,7, 7D,7C,7B,7A, 6...etc
The A,B,C,D are encoder group buttons...

Any idea what may cause this?
TIA

If you have multiple controls on a single easypar Midi message they react internally.

eg
Btn 1 
$B0 7 0 ;off
$B0 7 10 .on 

Btn 2 
$B0 7 0 ;off
$B0 7 11 ;on 

When Btn 2 goes on or off so does Btn 1

There are also some strange actions like

Btn 1 
$B0 7 0 ;off
$B0 7 10 .on 

Btn 2 
$B0 7 0 ;off
$B0 7 110 ;on 

Btn 2 going on will make Btn 1 go on (> the on value of 10)
but 
Btn 1 going on will not make Btn 2 go on 

A bit of hysteresis going on or is it the bit setting
10  = 000 1010
110 = 110 1110
Perhaps Mark knows.

This could be useful.

All the best
Royce 

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "s_y_nagual" <s_y_nagual@...> wrote:

>
> HI ALL,
> today I was mapping some Reaktor ensembles to BCR2k and I noticed that some buttons act strange, like a button would activate/dis-activate others.
> For example Button #7, (both upper and lower) turn on/off buttons 2,3,5?
> At the same time, 3 buttons go on/off
> Also my preset switching is a bit odd, sometimes it will not change presets, it will go preset for example: 9,8,7, 7D,7C,7B,7A, 6...etc
> The A,B,C,D are encoder group buttons...
> 
> Any idea what may cause this?
> TIA
>

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Royce" <rpcfender@...> wrote:
> There are also some strange actions like
> 
> Btn 1 
> $B0 7 0 ;off
> $B0 7 10 .on 
> 
> Btn 2 
> $B0 7 0 ;off
> $B0 7 110 ;on 
> 
> Btn 2 going on will make Btn 1 go on (> the on value of 10)
> but 
> Btn 1 going on will not make Btn 2 go on 
> 
> A bit of hysteresis going on or is it the bit setting
> 10  = 000 1010
> 110 = 110 1110
> Perhaps Mark knows.

A button set up via ".easypar CC" reacts to any incoming message on the same channel and controller (via MIDI or from another button/encoder) based on the AVERAGE of its Value1 and Value2: below the average, the LED goes into its "low" state, above the average into the "high" state, where "low" and "high" are "off" and "on" or vice versa, depending on whether Value2 is smaller or larger than Value1.

In the above, I've been intentionally vague about the exact cut-off point, since I've found a seemingly strange, slight mismatch:

Value1=127, Value2=0:
0..63: off
64..127: on

Value1=0, Value2=127:
0..62(!): on
63..127: off

I'd have to investigate further to figure out exactly how this works.

Anyway, I'm sure I've written about this phenomenon before, but right now I can't find it in "BC MIDI Implementation.pdf", so either it's buried in there somewhere, or (more likely) I wrote about it in a message thread in this forum or elsewhere. So maybe I'll have to update the document.

In any case the phenomenon of buttons/encoders affecting other buttons/encoders ("value synchronization") is discussed in section 14.9 of BCMI.

Hope this helps,
Mark.

Thank you both for help, I wish I could understand what it is though?
I noticed that other templates do similar stuff:  button X, would turn on/off other buttons, totally unrelated...
My templates are basically 16 templates same assignments only midi channels change. (if that helps any)
Also the little LEDs act a bit funny too, turning one rotary, you can see dimmed LEDs moving in other pots, always same row....

Best, Karel


________________________________

 From: Mark v.d. Berg <markwinvdb@hetnet.nl>
To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, 25 June 2012, 9:08
Subject: [bc2000] Re: mulfunction or?
 

  
--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Royce" <rpcfender@...> wrote:
> There are also some strange actions like
> 
> Btn 1 
> $B0 7 0 ;off
> $B0 7 10 .on 
> 
> Btn 2 
> $B0 7 0 ;off
> $B0 7 110 ;on 
> 
> Btn 2 going on will make Btn 1 go on (> the on value of 10)
> but 
> Btn 1 going on will not make Btn 2 go on 
> 
> A bit of hysteresis going on or is it the bit setting
> 10  = 000 1010
> 110 = 110 1110
> Perhaps Mark knows.

A button set up via ".easypar CC" reacts to any incoming message on the same channel and controller (via MIDI or from another button/encoder) based on the AVERAGE of its Value1 and Value2: below the average, the LED goes into its "low" state, above the average into the "high" state, where "low" and "high" are "off" and "on" or vice versa, depending on whether Value2 is smaller or larger than Value1.

In the above, I've been intentionally vague about the exact cut-off point, since I've found a seemingly strange, slight mismatch:

Value1=127, Value2=0:
0..63: off
64..127: on

Value1=0, Value2=127:
0..62(!): on
63..127: off

I'd have to investigate further to figure out exactly how this works.

Anyway, I'm sure I've written about this phenomenon before, but right now I can't find it in "BC MIDI Implementation.pdf", so either it's buried in there somewhere, or (more likely) I wrote about it in a message thread in this forum or elsewhere. So maybe I'll have to update the document.

In any case the phenomenon of buttons/encoders affecting other buttons/encoders ("value synchronization") is discussed in section 14.9 of BCMI.

Hope this helps,
Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, karel skakal <s_y_nagual@...> wrote:
> Also the little LEDs act a bit funny too, turning one rotary, you can see dimmed LEDs moving in other pots, always same row....

What you're describing here is a totally different issue, namely a hardware problem of the BCF/BCR, to which someone drew my attention about a year ago (I can't remember if this was in this forum or via private email):
when you use a BCF/BCR in a dark room, you can see that certain encoders affect the LEDs of certain other encoders. Bizarre, but probably nothing too worry about - this is just how the BCF and BCR are wired, apparently.

But I was under the impression that your main problem concerns "conceptual" links between buttons/encoders, i.e. where two or more buttons/encoders share the same MIDI channel and e.g. controller number.

Mark.

Funny you should mention the dimmed LEDs on BCR.

I was investigating my noise issues, and noticed the 5th column of 3 x 8 buttons was dimmly lit.
Even more curious ... if I unplugged the power to the BCR ... the were still dimly lit ... spooky.

Eventually when I unplugged midi in, the lights went out (midi out didnt turn out the lights).

I put midi in back in, and indeed same issue happened.

So this is what I am investigating as possibly a source of the noise ... some leakage from the midi in.

So glad it isnt just my BCR that is haunted :-)

Regards

Steve H

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark v.d. Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:

>
> --- In bc2000@...m, karel skakal <s_y_nagual@> wrote:
> > Also the little LEDs act a bit funny too, turning one rotary, you can see dimmed LEDs moving in other pots, always same row....
> 
> What you're describing here is a totally different issue, namely a hardware problem of the BCF/BCR, to which someone drew my attention about a year ago (I can't remember if this was in this forum or via private email):
> when you use a BCF/BCR in a dark room, you can see that certain encoders affect the LEDs of certain other encoders. Bizarre, but probably nothing too worry about - this is just how the BCF and BCR are wired, apparently.
> 
> But I was under the impression that your main problem concerns "conceptual" links between buttons/encoders, i.e. where two or more buttons/encoders share the same MIDI channel and e.g. controller number.
> 
> Mark.
>

Hi Mark,
 yes, the buttons activating and de-activating was my main concern, because I was trying to assign them to solos/mutes on an 8 channel drum machine.
I guess I am gonna forget about that...Could it be dirty contacts inside?
Thanx for reply.
Best, Karel


________________________________

 From: Mark v.d. Berg <markwinvdb@...>
To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012, 12:27
Subject: [bc2000] Re: mulfunction or?
 

  
--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, karel skakal <s_y_nagual@...> wrote:
> Also the little LEDs act a bit funny too, turning one rotary, you can see dimmed LEDs moving in other pots, always same row....

What you're describing here is a totally different issue, namely a hardware problem of the BCF/BCR, to which someone drew my attention about a year ago (I can't remember if this was in this forum or via private email):
when you use a BCF/BCR in a dark room, you can see that certain encoders affect the LEDs of certain other encoders. Bizarre, but probably nothing too worry about - this is just how the BCF and BCR are wired, apparently.

But I was under the impression that your main problem concerns "conceptual" links between buttons/encoders, i.e. where two or more buttons/encoders share the same MIDI channel and e.g. controller number.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, karel skakal <s_y_nagual@...> wrote:
> yes, the buttons activating and de-activating was my main concern, because I was trying to assign them to solos/mutes on an 8 channel drum machine.
> I guess I am gonna forget about that...Could it be dirty contacts inside?

It depends, I suppose:
If you can see LEDs switching "completely" on and off in broad daylight, then my first guess would be a software problem (i.e. buttons sharing the same MIDI channel and controller number, as Royce and I have been discussing).
However, if you're talking about LEDs at "ghost" levels, then a hardware issue I mentioned seems more likely, but as I said this may well be a feature all BCFs/BCRs have, not just yours.

Mark.

The ghost LEDs don't bother me, however, the buttons upper lower were turning on/off others, I had them assigned to 8 solo and mute switches. Then, if I pushed #1, in solos=(top group) # 3 and 7 would go on/off, depending what position they were before. 
I have nothing assigned in such way that it would trigger multi buttons.
Enclosed is a map of settings in BC Manager.
Thank you M&R


________________________________

 From: Mark v.d. Berg <markwinvdb@...>
To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012, 19:35
Subject: [bc2000] Re: mulfunction or?
 

  
--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, karel skakal <s_y_nagual@...> wrote:
> yes, the buttons activating and de-activating was my main concern, because I was trying to assign them to solos/mutes on an 8 channel drum machine.
> I guess I am gonna forget about that...Could it be dirty contacts inside?

It depends, I suppose:
If you can see LEDs switching "completely" on and off in broad daylight, then my first guess would be a software problem (i.e. buttons sharing the same MIDI channel and controller number, as Royce and I have been discussing).
However, if you're talking about LEDs at "ghost" levels, then a hardware issue I mentioned seems more likely, but as I said this may well be a feature all BCFs/BCRs have, not just yours.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, karel skakal <s_y_nagual@...> wrote:
> Enclosed is a map of settings in BC Manager.

(For me at least) the resolution is just a bit too low to see the table in full detail.
So if you like, you can send me the preset definition file (syx, txt or bc2).

Mark.

Thanks Mark, I send you the MIDI file.



________________________________

 From: Mark v.d. Berg <markwinvdb@...>
To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012, 14:44
Subject: [bc2000] Re: mulfunction or?
 

  
--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, karel skakal <s_y_nagual@...> wrote:
> Enclosed is a map of settings in BC Manager.

(For me at least) the resolution is just a bit too low to see the table in full detail.
So if you like, you can send me the preset definition file (syx, txt or bc2).

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, karel skakal <s_y_nagual@...> wrote:
> Thanks Mark, I send you the MIDI file.

I've looked at the file in BC Manager:
I can't see anything wrong: all the buttons and encoders define different Control Change messages (i.e. different channel and/or controller); this goes for both preset 0 and preset 9.

I've uploaded the whole file to my own BCR2000, and I can't see any buttons triggering other buttons. (Well, maybe I could see "ghost" LEDS in a darkened room, but that's not what you're experiencing, apparently...)

So I'm starting to think that your BCR does have a hardware problem.
It's either a VERY bad case of the "familiar" problem with ghost LEDs, or something more serious.

Just an idea: you might try BC Manager's "Test hardware" mode (from the B-Controls window: MIDI -> Maintenance): while the BCR is in this mode, pressing any button should switch all the other buttons on or off too; I'm not sure what happens in your case.

Mark.

Thank you Mark, 
I did not think that the midi map that I sent you was bad either.
Out of curiosity, I went through the test and it tested OK, lights moved around etc.
(BTW it is a great program, just like the rest of BC Manager).

One thing I discovered was that when I push on the "defective" button, the button will flicker on/off and will continue to switch on/off the buttons that it switches. It does not stop flickering.
 "Healthy" button will switch on (or off) and show template and that's it.

I guess it is time to look for a new one...

Thank you for your support, Karel


________________________________

 From: Mark v.d. Berg <markwinvdb@hetnet.nl>
To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012, 18:23
Subject: [bc2000] Re: mulfunction or?
 

  
--- In bc2000@...m, karel skakal <s_y_nagual@...> wrote:
> Thanks Mark, I send you the MIDI file.

I've looked at the file in BC Manager:
I can't see anything wrong: all the buttons and encoders define different Control Change messages (i.e. different channel and/or controller); this goes for both preset 0 and preset 9.

I've uploaded the whole file to my own BCR2000, and I can't see any buttons triggering other buttons. (Well, maybe I could see "ghost" LEDS in a darkened room, but that's not what you're experiencing, apparently...)

So I'm starting to think that your BCR does have a hardware problem.
It's either a VERY bad case of the "familiar" problem with ghost LEDs, or something more serious.

Just an idea: you might try BC Manager's "Test hardware" mode (from the B-Controls window: MIDI -> Maintenance): while the BCR is in this mode, pressing any button should switch all the other buttons on or off too; I'm not sure what happens in your case.

Mark.