Datacolor User to User Support Group.

Hi Gang, I have been running a 7600 with atkinson profiles for 3 years 
now with premium luster with 95% perfect results. The only thing That I 
can bitch about is I still get posterization in some dark browns, like 
in hair. I realize that I under exposure can be part of the problem, but 
this is not always this issue. There are some browns that are out of the 
gamut of the printer and atkinson prifile. I usually just clone or copy 
and paste some hair in the areas while soft proofing and keep going.

Now tonight I was printing canvas. I use lexjet instant dry satin 
canvas. The browns really get whacked with canvas. I just spent the last 
2 hours gamut correcting a 20x24 and it really sucks. I thought why dont 
I down load the atkinson profile for premiere art epson canvas and see 
if it softproofs any better than the lexjet profile. It was slightly 
better,  And I am going to go with epson next time I buy a roll.

I thought about a custom profile but the advice I got from profile 
people is that there are still browns that are just not going to print. 
I thought about a rip, I would spring for one if I new it would work. 
All I need is gamut control, qimage works just fine for nesting.

Does anybody have any advice for me? I just upgraded to a 5d, and it 
appears that there is better shadow detail than my 10d I was working 
with. So this will help out I think. But not cure the problem.

I shoot raw and use capture one with srgb. Now, I know that I shoud be 
working with at least adobe rgb, but I send most of my small stuff to my 
lab which I get printed for a buck a unit.  This lab of course is srgb. 
I dont want the added hassle of conversion.
According to my gamut viewer, These dark browns should be covered with 
srgb or adobe. But I agree adobe is a better space. I just dont want the 
conversion hassles when I upload stuff to the lab.
Check out this program...

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...lorcontrol.mspx 
<http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/prophoto/colorcontrol.mspx> 


Would printfix pro solve these problems?

Thanks for the help.

Randy

randy wrote:

> Hi Gang, I have been running a 7600 with atkinson profiles for 3 years
> now with premium luster with 95% perfect results. The only thing That I
> can bitch about is I still get posterization in some dark browns, like
> in hair. I realize that I under exposure can be part of the problem, but
> this is not always this issue. There are some browns that are out of the
> gamut of the printer and atkinson prifile. I usually just clone or copy
> and paste some hair in the areas while soft proofing and keep going.
>
> Now tonight I was printing canvas. I use lexjet instant dry satin
> canvas. The browns really get whacked with canvas. I just spent the last
> 2 hours gamut correcting a 20x24 and it really sucks. I thought why dont
> I down load the atkinson profile for premiere art epson canvas and see
> if it softproofs any better than the lexjet profile. It was slightly
> better,  And I am going to go with epson next time I buy a roll.
>
> I thought about a custom profile but the advice I got from profile
> people is that there are still browns that are just not going to print.
> I thought about a rip, I would spring for one if I new it would work.
> All I need is gamut control, qimage works just fine for nesting.
>
> Does anybody have any advice for me? I just upgraded to a 5d, and it
> appears that there is better shadow detail than my 10d I was working
> with. So this will help out I think. But not cure the problem.
>
> I shoot raw and use capture one with srgb. Now, I know that I shoud be
> working with at least adobe rgb, but I send most of my small stuff to my
> lab which I get printed for a buck a unit.  This lab of course is srgb.
> I dont want the added hassle of conversion.
> According to my gamut viewer, These dark browns should be covered with
> srgb or adobe. But I agree adobe is a better space. I just dont want the
> conversion hassles when I upload stuff to the lab.
> Check out this program...
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...lorcontrol.mspx
> <http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/prophoto/colorcontrol.mspx> 
>
>
>
> Would printfix pro solve these problems?
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> Randy
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Digital photography software 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+software&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=vcZVcv11-RF9aChCrpL-cA> 
> 	Digital photography 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=NPMG-BjOjJWWWu1WTDecRQ> 
> 	Digital photography course 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+course&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=GPs-R_fGq5Hih2NpQczQ8g> 
>
> Photography school 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Photography+school&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=pj3cKQlkMhgkqUXNMJjiCw> 
> 	Professional digital photography 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Professional+digital+photography&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=k7x9GYFzNn4NfJTZP-Vt_g> 
> 	Stock photography 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Stock+photography&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=H9bHMH_cKn4LEqWkcUABgg> 
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     *  Visit your group "colorvision_group
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colorvision_group>" on the web.
>        
>     *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>        colorvision_group-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:colorvision_group-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>        
>     *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Randy,

I can try making a profile for you with my unit if you like.  The EULA 
seems to allow me to profile a third party printer as long as its not 
redistributed.  Would you like to try that?  I have excelent results 
with the paper combinations used so far.

Tom T

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, randy <rlphoto@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Would printfix pro solve these problems?
> 
> Thanks for the help.
> 
> Randy
>

Hmm ... other post got eaten by the posting software somewhere.  I 
believe it is not against the EULA for me to profile a target that you 
print out.  I'll ask the ColorVision folks here if thats okay since I'm 
not a legal expert.

If its okay with them maybe you would like to print off the 
redistributable target and mail it to me for comparison.  That would 
definately answer your question.

I see that there where responses to my first post but they are not
showing up in my email. 

(yes I have it set to individual emails)

Where they are going?

I appriciate the offer to make me a profile. It would be worth buying
print fix pro though, just to have C.D. around to answer my questions :)

In the 8+ years I have been running epsons, I have yet to meet a more
knoledgeable person in the field of digital imaging.

Is canvas any harder to profile?

And C.D., why would adobe rgb be better? The Hair looks great on my
monitor till I soft proof. The color must be already there in the
first place?

Randy Laskody

www.laskodyphotography.com

I am getting them now. 

Randy Laskody wrote:

>I see that there where responses to my first post but they are not
>showing up in my email. 
>
>(yes I have it set to individual emails)
>
>Where they are going?
>
>
>  
>

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Laskody" 
> Is canvas any harder to profile?

I have some samples of Legion Premium Canvas which were purchased last 
week to test.  I've printed out the targets tonight and will try to 
profile them tomorrow.  I'll let you know how they look :-)

You said you had problems with posterization of browns?  Can you tell 
me the CIELAB range which was causing you issues?  My printer is an 
R1800 so it would be interesting for comparison.

Thanks again

Tom T

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <ttrostel@...> wrote:
> I have some samples of Legion Premium Canvas which were purchased last 
> week to test.  I've printed out the targets tonight and will try to 
> profile them tomorrow.  I'll let you know how they look :-)

There were only two sample sheets for evaluation so the 225 patch
target seemed to be a logical choice.  Printing the target produced a
very saturated rich dark patch set.  In fact the patches were so
saturated that looking at the 9 blocks the far right block in the
middle row presented quite a few blocks which appear black.

The test image looks very good.  The skin tones are smooth and the
image has no color cast.  The browns on the binocular case look good
without any signs of posterization.  Its hard to tell because the
image is small but some of the shadow detail isn't there on the black
elephant.  Examining the grey ramp on the right hand side I notice a
slight non-linearization in the near black colors.  If the entire bar
measures 2.75" on my print out the location of the discontinuity is at
about 0.75".  The density of the discontinuity matches the shadow loss
area on the elephant.

I have seen this issue before on some of the super-saturated settings.
 Moving up to the 700+ patch target has always eliminated the ramp
problem.  Again though that only seems to happen with the
super-saturated paper/ink combinations.

The only real issue I have with canvas is being so darned limp. 
Getting it fed into the printer to start is sometimes problematic. 
You wouldn't happen to have any tips in that area for me would you?

Thanks

Tom T

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:

> Someone, when they tested PrintFIX PRO, said that we should charge
extra for 
> the help... and of course live help is the most convenient kind. I
hope that 
> PrintFIX PRO owners on this list won't take advantage of that, and
skip reading 
> the on-board help first however... I won't always be able to make
real time 
> responses to all queries here; I'm headed to assorted locations in
Europe 
> shortly, and internet connections are not always available... but
I'm willing to 
> sacrifice communications for a day or two of shooting in Tuscany
anytime!

That sounds wonderful :-)

Despite the static we give you .. you are doing a great job here. 
Maybe if you get some good shots you'd be willing to share them with
us.  I'm always looking for new inspiration!

Tom

CDTobie@... wrote:
> Someone, when they tested PrintFIX PRO, said that we should charge extra for 
> the help... and of course live help is the most convenient kind. I hope that 
> PrintFIX PRO owners on this list won't take advantage of that, and skip reading 
> the on-board help first however... I won't always be able to make real time 
> responses to all queries here; 

Many thanks David for your presents here on this list. We all appreciate it for sure.

I started this group with the intention to have a "User to User" PrintFIX PRO support area.

It wasn't my intention for users to have live support with the "Big Kahuna"! A project that I've 
been working on is almost at the end so I'll definitely post more and share what I have 
learned using PrintFix PRO.

Best,

John

In a message dated 3/5/06 8:45:54 PM, rlphoto@... writes:


> I appriciate the offer to make me a profile. It would be worth buying
> print fix pro though, just to have C.D. around to answer my questions :)
> 
> In the 8+ years I have been running epsons, I have yet to meet a more
> knoledgeable person in the field of digital imaging.
> 
Thats a nice break, after the warzone mentality on the DPRreview forum....
> 
> Is canvas any harder to profile?
> 

Yes, in that the texture creates highlight that sap color, shadows that sap 
color, and the relation between the two determines whether the result appears 
lighter than it should (gloss canvas with lots of highlight sheen) or darker 
(matte, with no highlight but plenty of shadow). You may have to increase the 
saturation slider to some degree, and may have to move the brightness slider a 
hair one way of the other to correct for the higlight/shadow balance. Other 
minor adjustments may be appropriate as well, on a canvas by canvas basis. But if 
you are used to optimizing for textured papers, this will not be much more of 
a challenge. There are other issues that have to do with there being a lot of 
lousy canvasses on the market, so if one doesn't work for you, try another. 
Never invest the price of a used car in a roll of wideformat canvas without 
printing in samples of it first.
> 
> And C.D., why would adobe rgb be better? The Hair looks great on my
> monitor till I soft proof.
> 
Workingspace shows you whats in the file. Softproof shows you (approximately) 
how the stuff in the file maps to the stuff that the printer can do. If your 
starting point is a bit closer to the printer gamut (or at least a bit larger 
than sRGB) then the relation between the two is a bit more effective.


>  The color must be already there in the
> first place?
> 
One could make the case that colors that are in-gamut for sRGB are actually 
better off there, as its a smaller space, and thus the 256 levels of each 
channel are smaller increments. Certainly against a huge space, I would agree with 
that. But a reasonable intermediate space like AdobeRGB does not tend to 
introduce gaps or banding. It does, however, offer a better starting point for 
images. This is for a number of reasons, some of them rather unsatisfying ones. 
For instance, many cameras offer AdobeRGB as their better processing space, and 
sRGB as an inferior result for the web. So try   capturing to AdobeRGB, and 
see if it helps. And look for new canvasses to hit the market, that make canvas 
more like an art paper, and less like a glossy photo paper with acne.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com

The nice thing about forums is that you should not have to repeat 
yourself over and over. I have noticed from being one of your disciples 
for close to a decade is how many times in the past that you had to 
repeat the same info over and over to different list members. That you 
would even take time to do it is admirable. A lot of the problem lies in 
the fact that free forum space is not all that functional like a real 
private forum space. 

http://www.breezesys.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=3

http://forum.phaseone.com/index.php?sid=b902da8f27840939f53a6984201bee7a

This is Breezebrowsers  and Capture ones forum.  This seems to be the 
way to go in my opinion, although there may be issues that I am unaware 
of in doing this.

Myself I hate to search on yahoo groups.  The functionality is not there.

I am surprised that colorvision does not already have a forum for all 
there products.

I pledge to not take advantage of a good situation. Have fun in Europe

Randy

>
> In a message dated 3/5/06 8:45:54 PM, rlphoto@... writes:
>
>
>> I appriciate the offer to make me a profile. It would be worth buying
>> print fix pro though, just to have C.D. around to answer my questions :)
>
>
>
> Someone, when they tested PrintFIX PRO, said that we should charge 
> extra for the help... and of course live help is the most convenient 
> kind. I hope that PrintFIX PRO owners on this list won't take 
> advantage of that, and skip reading the on-board help first however... 
> I won't always be able to make real time responses to all queries 
> here; I'm headed to assorted locations in Europe shortly, and internet 
> connections are not always available... but I'm willing to sacrifice 
> communications for a day or two of shooting in Tuscany anytime!
>
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Digital photography software 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+software&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=vcZVcv11-RF9aChCrpL-cA> 
> 	Digital photography 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=NPMG-BjOjJWWWu1WTDecRQ> 
> 	Digital photography course 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+course&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=GPs-R_fGq5Hih2NpQczQ8g> 
>
> Photography school 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Photography+school&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=pj3cKQlkMhgkqUXNMJjiCw> 
> 	Professional digital photography 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Professional+digital+photography&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=k7x9GYFzNn4NfJTZP-Vt_g> 
> 	Stock photography 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Stock+photography&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=H9bHMH_cKn4LEqWkcUABgg> 
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     *  Visit your group "colorvision_group
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colorvision_group>" on the web.
>        
>     *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>        colorvision_group-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:colorvision_group-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>        
>     *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.0/275 - Release Date: 3/6/2006
>

Thats a nice break, after the warzone mentality on the DPRreview forum....

Yes, the  (just one purchase away from greatness crowd) 

>
>
> Yes, in that the texture creates highlight that sap color, ect, ect


No one explains it like you do CD.  Thanks!

Randy Laskody

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:

> I'll refrain from posting my personal shots to the CV group images
section 
> simply as photos (plenty of other groups dedicated to that sort of
thing)... but 
> there are a few that I use for color test images that I may put up
there 
> eventually.

Hah ... my development manager laughed and said jokingly you should
write off your new Cannon 5d as a buisness expense ... just to assist
testing fully digital color workflows of course! ;-)

In a message dated 3/6/06 1:24:28 PM, ttrostel@... writes:


> Hah ... my development manager laughed and said jokingly you should
> write off your new Cannon 5d as a buisness expense ... just to assist
> testing fully digital color workflows of course! ;-)
> 
I recently figured up $40,000 worth of color printers, three computer 
systems, several monitors (with prices has high as $7800... yup, that was for one 
monitor) and a long series of digital camera systems in my studio... all of which 
I've purchased with my own money. ColorVision is a great company to work for, 
but its not a free ride, and even though I use all this stuff in development 
work, I, like many here, am a fanatic in the digital photography/digital 
imaging/digital art-print   world, and would be buying this stuff whether I worked 
for ColorVision or not. But I do get to expense my inks, and we all know thats 
were the real money is... <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:

> I recently figured up $40,000 worth of color printers, three computer 
> systems, several monitors (with prices has high as $7800... yup,
that was for one 
> monitor) and a long series of digital camera systems in my studio...
all of which 
> I've purchased with my own money. ColorVision is a great company to
work for, 
> but its not a free ride, and even though I use all this stuff in
development 
> work, I, like many here, am a fanatic in the digital
photography/digital 
> imaging/digital art-print   world, and would be buying this stuff
whether I worked 
> for ColorVision or not. But I do get to expense my inks, and we all
know thats 
> were the real money is... <G>

(cough) ... my co-workers say I should owe you two beers now ... one
isn't enough.  Seriously though it is a passion and I'm glad that we
can all enjoy it together as its meant to be.