Datacolor User to User Support Group.

I am confused. I just got a Lacie 321 and also changed from Printfix Pro Beta to the final 
2.0 version. I printed a 225 patch as well as the extended gray one on Epson En Matte, and 
after drying, read them, finally making profiles with and without the Extended Gray. 
Printing from within PFP the Brightness and Contrast were pretty close, and saturation a bit 
high, but the color was way off toward Yellow/Green. I printed some other images. They 
also printed off with this green/yellow cast in color and black and white. Also, I saw little 
difference with an intent of Sat or Perc. 

I was amazed since I had had better luck earlier with beta versions and using my old 
monitor. So I tried a 729 with X-Gray reading. Very close to the 225 and off! I had to 
adjust the Green down 6, Red up 1, and the Blue up 12 to get a decent match for my 
monitor. Even with the new subtler color slider values this seems like a lot of adjustment 
after nearly 1000 readings to make the profile for the printer. And all the gear is good 
stuff that is carefully calibrated.

I use an Epson 2200 and Mac OS 10.4.8, a Lacie 321 and a Samsung 191T. I have the 
desktop, menus and tools on the Samsung and the images from Photoshop on the Lacie. 
Both monitors are calibrated to 5000K 2.2 gamma, 110 Luminance and I use a 5000K 
viewing light. The Lacie is hardware calibrated and the Samsung's hardware is RGB 
adjusted for color and luminance and software calibrated. They both look Neutral and 
when dragging images across them, the color is pretty close. I am using Adobe RGB for the 
Photoshop color space and printing to the new profiles, perceptual intent and letting 
photoshop determine colors. The Epson paper choice is for Enhanced Matte (the paper I 
am profiling for) with no color management.

First I wondered if Photoshop was using the profile from the Samsung while I was 
adjusting images on the Lacie since the Mac menu bar and Photoshop tools are on the 
samsung. So I looked, and its profile does show up as the monitor in use in the workspace 
pull down in photoshop's color settings (I keep the workspace set at Adobe RGB). So I set 
the Samsung Display preference to use the same profile as the Lacie, but the printing 
seemed about the same. I do have the Samsung basically hardware calibrated though, so 
Photoshop could be using its profile and it is so close to the Lacie profile that I have not 
seen the difference in my limited testing. In the meantime I am choosing the Lacie profile 
in the Samsung Display Color Preference for all testing just in case. Calibrating the Lacie to 
6500 or to a higher or lower luminance does not help. Also calibrating the Lacie (over the 
previous hardware calibration) with Spyder Pro or Eye One software calibration changes 
things a teeny bit on screen but printed I find any difference indiscernible. Certainly not 
meaningful relative to the yellow/green shift.

So my questions are:

What am I doing wrong?
Is this level of color shift in spec for Printfix Pro?
Is my spectro off?
Is it necessary to have your primary viewing monitor on a Mac be setup as such in 
Photoshop so that its profile is the start of color management, or does it automatically 
recognize the monitor the image is viewed on as the source monitor?
If it is necessary, is there a way to do this (other than manually as I have been doing) and 
still have the menu bar on the secondary monitor? I like not having anything but the photo 
on the viewing monitor.

By the way, I love the black and white possibilities with PPF. With my printer left on color, 
once the profile is tweaked, it works impressively for Black and White printing. Also, I 
found it helpful tweaking out this color shift with a black and white image since the shifts 
show up quite clearly against grays and black. And finally, contrast and brightness are 
easier for me to discern without the distraction of color. So for color profiles, what a nice 
addition the extended grays have brought to the tools!

Thanks for any advice.

Will

Hi Will,

Much of what you describe has been my experience as well.  David 
(both) helped and with a lot of work on my own I now have profiles 
that I feel are better than the canned profiles and as good as if not 
better than those provided with Image Print Rip.

My solution is:  When creating the profile go to reference white and 
check the box Paper White Compensation, effectively setting the b 
axis to 0.  With this done depending on the paper I am able to get 
very good profiles with 4-12 units of blue and on some, but not all, 
papers up to 5 units of magenta.  This is easily tweaked by several 
iterations until you are pleased.  I too worried my Eizo monitor 
(profiled) was off and tried calibration at 5500 up to 6500, gamma 
1.8 and 2.2 and have come to the conclusion my monitor is OK, my 
printers are OK and the spectrocolorimeter is OK.  It took a while, 
but I learned a great deal including the viewing light is crucial.

HTH

Paul

"willruggles" <2rcp@...> wrote:
>
> I am confused. I just got a Lacie 321 and also changed from 
Printfix Pro Beta to the final 
> 2.0 version. I printed a 225 patch as well as the extended gray one 
on Epson En Matte, and 
> after drying, read them, finally making profiles with and without 
the Extended Gray. 
> Printing from within PFP the Brightness and Contrast were pretty 
close, and saturation a bit 
> high, but the color was way off toward Yellow/Green. I printed some 
other images. They 
> also printed off with this green/yellow cast in color and black and 
white. Also, I saw little 
> difference with an intent of Sat or Perc. 
> 
> I was amazed since I had had better luck earlier with beta versions 
and using my old 
> monitor. So I tried a 729 with X-Gray reading. Very close to the 
225 and off! I had to 
> adjust the Green down 6, Red up 1, and the Blue up 12 to get a 
decent match for my 
> monitor. Even with the new subtler color slider values this seems 
like a lot of adjustment 
> after nearly 1000 readings to make the profile for the printer. And 
all the gear is good 
> stuff that is carefully calibrated.
> 
> I use an Epson 2200 and Mac OS 10.4.8, a Lacie 321 and a Samsung 
191T. I have the 
> desktop, menus and tools on the Samsung and the images from 
Photoshop on the Lacie. 
> Both monitors are calibrated to 5000K 2.2 gamma, 110 Luminance and 
I use a 5000K 
> viewing light. The Lacie is hardware calibrated and the Samsung's 
hardware is RGB 
> adjusted for color and luminance and software calibrated. They both 
look Neutral and 
> when dragging images across them, the color is pretty close. I am 
using Adobe RGB for the 
> Photoshop color space and printing to the new profiles, perceptual 
intent and letting 
> photoshop determine colors. The Epson paper choice is for Enhanced 
Matte (the paper I 
> am profiling for) with no color management.
> 
> First I wondered if Photoshop was using the profile from the 
Samsung while I was 
> adjusting images on the Lacie since the Mac menu bar and Photoshop 
tools are on the 
> samsung. So I looked, and its profile does show up as the monitor 
in use in the workspace 
> pull down in photoshop's color settings (I keep the workspace set 
at Adobe RGB). So I set 
> the Samsung Display preference to use the same profile as the 
Lacie, but the printing 
> seemed about the same. I do have the Samsung basically hardware 
calibrated though, so 
> Photoshop could be using its profile and it is so close to the 
Lacie profile that I have not 
> seen the difference in my limited testing. In the meantime I am 
choosing the Lacie profile 
> in the Samsung Display Color Preference for all testing just in 
case. Calibrating the Lacie to 
> 6500 or to a higher or lower luminance does not help. Also 
calibrating the Lacie (over the 
> previous hardware calibration) with Spyder Pro or Eye One software 
calibration changes 
> things a teeny bit on screen but printed I find any difference 
indiscernible. Certainly not 
> meaningful relative to the yellow/green shift.
> 
> So my questions are:
> 
> What am I doing wrong?
> Is this level of color shift in spec for Printfix Pro?
> Is my spectro off?
> Is it necessary to have your primary viewing monitor on a Mac be 
setup as such in 
> Photoshop so that its profile is the start of color management, or 
does it automatically 
> recognize the monitor the image is viewed on as the source monitor?
> If it is necessary, is there a way to do this (other than manually 
as I have been doing) and 
> still have the menu bar on the secondary monitor? I like not having 
anything but the photo 
> on the viewing monitor.
> 
> By the way, I love the black and white possibilities with PPF. With 
my printer left on color, 
> once the profile is tweaked, it works impressively for Black and 
White printing. Also, I 
> found it helpful tweaking out this color shift with a black and 
white image since the shifts 
> show up quite clearly against grays and black. And finally, 
contrast and brightness are 
> easier for me to discern without the distraction of color. So for 
color profiles, what a nice 

> addition the extended grays have brought to the tools!
> 
> Thanks for any advice.
> 
> Will
>

Hey Paul,

Thanks for the encouragement. I am glad to hear that you arrived at
good profiles and found that all your gear was OK. With the variables
of a new (and expensive!) monitor setup, and a new iteration of the
program, it got confusing for me. I wonder why we are experiencing
roughly the same color shift issues, manageable as they may be with a
relatively consistent range of adjustments. On the other hand, though
you have found that different levels of Magenta and Blue will put
things right, the need for up to 5 Magenta and 12 Blue indicates what
is to me a lot of Green/Yellow to compensate for. The down side of
this is it can present the need for a lot of testing, which is what I
bought PFP to avoid. I wonder if it is that Eizo and Lacie have
similar methods of describing and arriving at neutral colors, and that
these are different from the Colorvision models used in developing
PrinFixPro? I look forward to a response from David (s) to get his
take on this color shift issue and on my questions about using dual
monitors on a Mac in my original post.

Thanks again,

Will

.--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "bwinkjet" <bwinkjet@...>
wrote:

>
> Hi Will,
> 
> Much of what you describe has been my experience as well.  David 
> (both) helped and with a lot of work on my own I now have profiles 
> that I feel are better than the canned profiles and as good as if not 
> better than those provided with Image Print Rip.
> 
> My solution is:  When creating the profile go to reference white and 
> check the box Paper White Compensation, effectively setting the b 
> axis to 0.  With this done depending on the paper I am able to get 
> very good profiles with 4-12 units of blue and on some, but not all, 
> papers up to 5 units of magenta.  This is easily tweaked by several 
> iterations until you are pleased.  I too worried my Eizo monitor 
> (profiled) was off and tried calibration at 5500 up to 6500, gamma 
> 1.8 and 2.2 and have come to the conclusion my monitor is OK, my 
> printers are OK and the spectrocolorimeter is OK.  It took a while, 
> but I learned a great deal including the viewing light is crucial.
> 
> HTH
> 
> Paul
> 
> "willruggles" <2rcp@> wrote:
> >
> > I am confused. I just got a Lacie 321 and also changed from 
> Printfix Pro Beta to the final 
> > 2.0 version. I printed a 225 patch as well as the extended gray one 
> on Epson En Matte, and 
> > after drying, read them, finally making profiles with and without 
> the Extended Gray. 
> > Printing from within PFP the Brightness and Contrast were pretty 
> close, and saturation a bit 
> > high, but the color was way off toward Yellow/Green. I printed some 
> other images. They 
> > also printed off with this green/yellow cast in color and black and 
> white. Also, I saw little 
> > difference with an intent of Sat or Perc. 
> > 
> > I was amazed since I had had better luck earlier with beta versions 
> and using my old 
> > monitor. So I tried a 729 with X-Gray reading. Very close to the 
> 225 and off! I had to 
> > adjust the Green down 6, Red up 1, and the Blue up 12 to get a 
> decent match for my 
> > monitor. Even with the new subtler color slider values this seems 
> like a lot of adjustment 
> > after nearly 1000 readings to make the profile for the printer. And 
> all the gear is good 
> > stuff that is carefully calibrated.
> > 
> > I use an Epson 2200 and Mac OS 10.4.8, a Lacie 321 and a Samsung 
> 191T. I have the 
> > desktop, menus and tools on the Samsung and the images from 
> Photoshop on the Lacie. 
> > Both monitors are calibrated to 5000K 2.2 gamma, 110 Luminance and 
> I use a 5000K 
> > viewing light. The Lacie is hardware calibrated and the Samsung's 
> hardware is RGB 
> > adjusted for color and luminance and software calibrated. They both 
> look Neutral and 
> > when dragging images across them, the color is pretty close. I am 
> using Adobe RGB for the 
> > Photoshop color space and printing to the new profiles, perceptual 
> intent and letting 
> > photoshop determine colors. The Epson paper choice is for Enhanced 
> Matte (the paper I 
> > am profiling for) with no color management.
> > 
> > First I wondered if Photoshop was using the profile from the 
> Samsung while I was 
> > adjusting images on the Lacie since the Mac menu bar and Photoshop 
> tools are on the 
> > samsung. So I looked, and its profile does show up as the monitor 
> in use in the workspace 
> > pull down in photoshop's color settings (I keep the workspace set 
> at Adobe RGB). So I set 
> > the Samsung Display preference to use the same profile as the 
> Lacie, but the printing 
> > seemed about the same. I do have the Samsung basically hardware 
> calibrated though, so 
> > Photoshop could be using its profile and it is so close to the 
> Lacie profile that I have not 
> > seen the difference in my limited testing. In the meantime I am 
> choosing the Lacie profile 
> > in the Samsung Display Color Preference for all testing just in 
> case. Calibrating the Lacie to 
> > 6500 or to a higher or lower luminance does not help. Also 
> calibrating the Lacie (over the 
> > previous hardware calibration) with Spyder Pro or Eye One software 
> calibration changes 
> > things a teeny bit on screen but printed I find any difference 
> indiscernible. Certainly not 
> > meaningful relative to the yellow/green shift.
> > 
> > So my questions are:
> > 
> > What am I doing wrong?
> > Is this level of color shift in spec for Printfix Pro?
> > Is my spectro off?
> > Is it necessary to have your primary viewing monitor on a Mac be 
> setup as such in 
> > Photoshop so that its profile is the start of color management, or 
> does it automatically 
> > recognize the monitor the image is viewed on as the source monitor?
> > If it is necessary, is there a way to do this (other than manually 
> as I have been doing) and 
> > still have the menu bar on the secondary monitor? I like not having 
> anything but the photo 
> > on the viewing monitor.
> > 
> > By the way, I love the black and white possibilities with PPF. With 
> my printer left on color, 
> > once the profile is tweaked, it works impressively for Black and 
> White printing. Also, I 
> > found it helpful tweaking out this color shift with a black and 
> white image since the shifts 
> > show up quite clearly against grays and black. And finally, 
> contrast and brightness are 
> > easier for me to discern without the distraction of color. So for 
> color profiles, what a nice 
> > addition the extended grays have brought to the tools!
> > 
> > Thanks for any advice.
> > 
> > Will
> >
>

Will,
I'm not sure, but suspect that the way Colorvision has chosen to deal 
with the UV effects of OBA's may be the variable.  I will, when I get 
time, profile a non OBA paper and see if the need to check Paper 
White Compensation remains necessary to obviate a great part of the 
color cast we note.
Paul

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "willruggles" <2rcp@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hey Paul,
> 
> Thanks for the encouragement. I am glad to hear that you arrived at
> good profiles and found that all your gear was OK. With the 
variables
> of a new (and expensive!) monitor setup, and a new iteration of the
> program, it got confusing for me. I wonder why we are experiencing
> roughly the same color shift issues, manageable as they may be with 
a
> relatively consistent range of adjustments. On the other hand, 
though
> you have found that different levels of Magenta and Blue will put
> things right, the need for up to 5 Magenta and 12 Blue indicates 
what
> is to me a lot of Green/Yellow to compensate for. The down side of
> this is it can present the need for a lot of testing, which is what 
I
> bought PFP to avoid. I wonder if it is that Eizo and Lacie have
> similar methods of describing and arriving at neutral colors, and 
that
> these are different from the Colorvision models used in developing
> PrinFixPro? I look forward to a response from David (s) to get his
> take on this color shift issue and on my questions about using dual
> monitors on a Mac in my original post.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Will
> 
> .--- In colorvision_group@...m, "bwinkjet" <bwinkjet@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Will,
> > 
> > Much of what you describe has been my experience as well.  David 
> > (both) helped and with a lot of work on my own I now have 
profiles 
> > that I feel are better than the canned profiles and as good as if 
not 
> > better than those provided with Image Print Rip.
> > 
> > My solution is:  When creating the profile go to reference white 
and 
> > check the box Paper White Compensation, effectively setting the b 
> > axis to 0.  With this done depending on the paper I am able to 
get 
> > very good profiles with 4-12 units of blue and on some, but not 
all, 
> > papers up to 5 units of magenta.  This is easily tweaked by 
several 
> > iterations until you are pleased.  I too worried my Eizo monitor 
> > (profiled) was off and tried calibration at 5500 up to 6500, 
gamma 
> > 1.8 and 2.2 and have come to the conclusion my monitor is OK, my 
> > printers are OK and the spectrocolorimeter is OK.  It took a 
while, 
> > but I learned a great deal including the viewing light is crucial.
> > 
> > HTH
> > 
> > Paul
> > 
> > "willruggles" <2rcp@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I am confused. I just got a Lacie 321 and also changed from 
> > Printfix Pro Beta to the final 
> > > 2.0 version. I printed a 225 patch as well as the extended gray 
one 
> > on Epson En Matte, and 
> > > after drying, read them, finally making profiles with and 
without 
> > the Extended Gray. 
> > > Printing from within PFP the Brightness and Contrast were 
pretty 
> > close, and saturation a bit 
> > > high, but the color was way off toward Yellow/Green. I printed 
some 
> > other images. They 
> > > also printed off with this green/yellow cast in color and black 
and 
> > white. Also, I saw little 
> > > difference with an intent of Sat or Perc. 
> > > 
> > > I was amazed since I had had better luck earlier with beta 
versions 
> > and using my old 
> > > monitor. So I tried a 729 with X-Gray reading. Very close to 
the 
> > 225 and off! I had to 
> > > adjust the Green down 6, Red up 1, and the Blue up 12 to get a 
> > decent match for my 
> > > monitor. Even with the new subtler color slider values this 
seems 
> > like a lot of adjustment 
> > > after nearly 1000 readings to make the profile for the printer. 
And 
> > all the gear is good 
> > > stuff that is carefully calibrated.
> > > 
> > > I use an Epson 2200 and Mac OS 10.4.8, a Lacie 321 and a 
Samsung 
> > 191T. I have the 
> > > desktop, menus and tools on the Samsung and the images from 
> > Photoshop on the Lacie. 
> > > Both monitors are calibrated to 5000K 2.2 gamma, 110 Luminance 
and 
> > I use a 5000K 
> > > viewing light. The Lacie is hardware calibrated and the 
Samsung's 
> > hardware is RGB 
> > > adjusted for color and luminance and software calibrated. They 
both 
> > look Neutral and 
> > > when dragging images across them, the color is pretty close. I 
am 
> > using Adobe RGB for the 
> > > Photoshop color space and printing to the new profiles, 
perceptual 
> > intent and letting 
> > > photoshop determine colors. The Epson paper choice is for 
Enhanced 
> > Matte (the paper I 
> > > am profiling for) with no color management.
> > > 
> > > First I wondered if Photoshop was using the profile from the 
> > Samsung while I was 
> > > adjusting images on the Lacie since the Mac menu bar and 
Photoshop 
> > tools are on the 
> > > samsung. So I looked, and its profile does show up as the 
monitor 
> > in use in the workspace 
> > > pull down in photoshop's color settings (I keep the workspace 
set 
> > at Adobe RGB). So I set 
> > > the Samsung Display preference to use the same profile as the 
> > Lacie, but the printing 
> > > seemed about the same. I do have the Samsung basically hardware 
> > calibrated though, so 
> > > Photoshop could be using its profile and it is so close to the 
> > Lacie profile that I have not 
> > > seen the difference in my limited testing. In the meantime I am 
> > choosing the Lacie profile 
> > > in the Samsung Display Color Preference for all testing just in 
> > case. Calibrating the Lacie to 
> > > 6500 or to a higher or lower luminance does not help. Also 
> > calibrating the Lacie (over the 
> > > previous hardware calibration) with Spyder Pro or Eye One 
software 
> > calibration changes 
> > > things a teeny bit on screen but printed I find any difference 
> > indiscernible. Certainly not 
> > > meaningful relative to the yellow/green shift.
> > > 
> > > So my questions are:
> > > 
> > > What am I doing wrong?
> > > Is this level of color shift in spec for Printfix Pro?
> > > Is my spectro off?
> > > Is it necessary to have your primary viewing monitor on a Mac 
be 
> > setup as such in 
> > > Photoshop so that its profile is the start of color management, 
or 
> > does it automatically 
> > > recognize the monitor the image is viewed on as the source 
monitor?
> > > If it is necessary, is there a way to do this (other than 
manually 
> > as I have been doing) and 
> > > still have the menu bar on the secondary monitor? I like not 
having 
> > anything but the photo 
> > > on the viewing monitor.
> > > 
> > > By the way, I love the black and white possibilities with PPF. 
With 
> > my printer left on color, 
> > > once the profile is tweaked, it works impressively for Black 
and 
> > White printing. Also, I 
> > > found it helpful tweaking out this color shift with a black and 
> > white image since the shifts 
> > > show up quite clearly against grays and black. And finally, 
> > contrast and brightness are 
> > > easier for me to discern without the distraction of color. So 
for 

> > color profiles, what a nice 
> > > addition the extended grays have brought to the tools!
> > > 
> > > Thanks for any advice.
> > > 
> > > Will
> > >
> >
>

>Hey Paul,
>
>Thanks for the encouragement. I am glad to hear that you arrived at
>good profiles and found that all your gear was OK. With the variables
>of a new (and expensive!) monitor setup, and a new iteration of the
>program, it got confusing for me. I wonder why we are experiencing
>roughly the same color shift issues, manageable as they may be with a
>relatively consistent range of adjustments. On the other hand, though
>you have found that different levels of Magenta and Blue will put
>things right, the need for up to 5 Magenta and 12 Blue indicates what
>is to me a lot of Green/Yellow to compensate for. The down side of
>this is it can present the need for a lot of testing, which is what I
>bought PFP to avoid. I wonder if it is that Eizo and Lacie have
>similar methods of describing and arriving at neutral colors, and that
>these are different from the Colorvision models used in developing
>PrinFixPro? I look forward to a response from David (s) to get his
>take on this color shift issue and on my questions about using dual
>monitors on a Mac in my original post.
>

A couple of quick comments:

Calibrate your displays for D65, gamma 2.2. And when you view prints,
use a "daylight spectrum" light bulb, with a color temperature of 6500K,
to view them with. (Plenty of floor/table lamps sold this way, and you
can also get bulbs from GE, for instance, if you look through the product
list on their web site).

In PFP 2.0, we changed the slider range adjustments, so they're "half as
strong" as they were in the original 1.0 and 1.1.1 versions.

So an adjustment of 5 magenta in 2.0 is the equivalent of 2.5 in the older
versions; and 12 Blue is the equivalent of 6 in the older versions; these
are both very small adjustments; the numbers aren't as "big" as they seem
to be.

In terms of "neutral", what you can do to check the actual neutrality of
printing through your profiles, in terms of how the spectro sees color,
is this: after you've built a profile with all sliders at 0, (and this should
be a profile created from both a color target and the extended grays
supplement), take a grayscale image (for example, the B&W test image we
provide) and print it through the profile.

Then use the Measure tool in PFP and measure the grays that you've printed.
(For example, one of the solid gray patches at or near 50% gray).

See what Lab values the spectro reads. A "perfectly" neutral gray will have
a Lab where a = b = 0.0

That kind of ultimate perfection isn't going to happen, but you should get
a and b values that are close to 0. Regardless of what things look like
to your eyes, that's what "neutral" really measures as.

Best regards,

-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

My experience has been that Paper White Compensation is necessary  
(and possible) only with brightened papers. With non OBA papers there  
are no negative numbers to begin with.

Myron

On 6-Jan-07, at 3:01 PM, bwinkjet wrote:

> Will,
> I'm not sure, but suspect that the way Colorvision has chosen to deal
> with the UV effects of OBA's may be the variable.  I will, when I get
> time, profile a non OBA paper and see if the need to check Paper
> White Compensation remains necessary to obviate a great part of the
> color cast we note.
> Paul
>
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "willruggles" <2rcp@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Paul,
>>
>> Thanks for the encouragement. I am glad to hear that you arrived at
>> good profiles and found that all your gear was OK. With the
> variables
>> of a new (and expensive!) monitor setup, and a new iteration of the
>> program, it got confusing for me. I wonder why we are experiencing
>> roughly the same color shift issues, manageable as they may be with
> a
>> relatively consistent range of adjustments. On the other hand,
> though
>> you have found that different levels of Magenta and Blue will put
>> things right, the need for up to 5 Magenta and 12 Blue indicates
> what
>> is to me a lot of Green/Yellow to compensate for. The down side of
>> this is it can present the need for a lot of testing, which is what
> I
>> bought PFP to avoid. I wonder if it is that Eizo and Lacie have
>> similar methods of describing and arriving at neutral colors, and
> that
>> these are different from the Colorvision models used in developing
>> PrinFixPro? I look forward to a response from David (s) to get his
>> take on this color shift issue and on my questions about using dual
>> monitors on a Mac in my original post.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> Will
>>
>> .--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "bwinkjet" <bwinkjet@>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Will,
>>>
>>> Much of what you describe has been my experience as well.  David
>>> (both) helped and with a lot of work on my own I now have
> profiles
>>> that I feel are better than the canned profiles and as good as if
> not
>>> better than those provided with Image Print Rip.
>>>
>>> My solution is:  When creating the profile go to reference white
> and
>>> check the box Paper White Compensation, effectively setting the b
>>> axis to 0.  With this done depending on the paper I am able to
> get
>>> very good profiles with 4-12 units of blue and on some, but not
> all,
>>> papers up to 5 units of magenta.  This is easily tweaked by
> several
>>> iterations until you are pleased.  I too worried my Eizo monitor
>>> (profiled) was off and tried calibration at 5500 up to 6500,
> gamma
>>> 1.8 and 2.2 and have come to the conclusion my monitor is OK, my
>>> printers are OK and the spectrocolorimeter is OK.  It took a
> while,
>>> but I learned a great deal including the viewing light is crucial.
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> "willruggles" <2rcp@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am confused. I just got a Lacie 321 and also changed from
>>> Printfix Pro Beta to the final
>>>> 2.0 version. I printed a 225 patch as well as the extended gray
> one
>>> on Epson En Matte, and
>>>> after drying, read them, finally making profiles with and
> without
>>> the Extended Gray.
>>>> Printing from within PFP the Brightness and Contrast were
> pretty
>>> close, and saturation a bit
>>>> high, but the color was way off toward Yellow/Green. I printed
> some
>>> other images. They
>>>> also printed off with this green/yellow cast in color and black
> and
>>> white. Also, I saw little
>>>> difference with an intent of Sat or Perc.
>>>>
>>>> I was amazed since I had had better luck earlier with beta
> versions
>>> and using my old
>>>> monitor. So I tried a 729 with X-Gray reading. Very close to
> the
>>> 225 and off! I had to
>>>> adjust the Green down 6, Red up 1, and the Blue up 12 to get a
>>> decent match for my
>>>> monitor. Even with the new subtler color slider values this
> seems
>>> like a lot of adjustment
>>>> after nearly 1000 readings to make the profile for the printer.
> And
>>> all the gear is good
>>>> stuff that is carefully calibrated.
>>>>
>>>> I use an Epson 2200 and Mac OS 10.4.8, a Lacie 321 and a
> Samsung
>>> 191T. I have the
>>>> desktop, menus and tools on the Samsung and the images from
>>> Photoshop on the Lacie.
>>>> Both monitors are calibrated to 5000K 2.2 gamma, 110 Luminance
> and
>>> I use a 5000K
>>>> viewing light. The Lacie is hardware calibrated and the
> Samsung's
>>> hardware is RGB
>>>> adjusted for color and luminance and software calibrated. They
> both
>>> look Neutral and
>>>> when dragging images across them, the color is pretty close. I
> am
>>> using Adobe RGB for the
>>>> Photoshop color space and printing to the new profiles,
> perceptual
>>> intent and letting
>>>> photoshop determine colors. The Epson paper choice is for
> Enhanced
>>> Matte (the paper I
>>>> am profiling for) with no color management.
>>>>
>>>> First I wondered if Photoshop was using the profile from the
>>> Samsung while I was
>>>> adjusting images on the Lacie since the Mac menu bar and
> Photoshop
>>> tools are on the
>>>> samsung. So I looked, and its profile does show up as the
> monitor
>>> in use in the workspace
>>>> pull down in photoshop's color settings (I keep the workspace
> set
>>> at Adobe RGB). So I set
>>>> the Samsung Display preference to use the same profile as the
>>> Lacie, but the printing
>>>> seemed about the same. I do have the Samsung basically hardware
>>> calibrated though, so
>>>> Photoshop could be using its profile and it is so close to the
>>> Lacie profile that I have not
>>>> seen the difference in my limited testing. In the meantime I am
>>> choosing the Lacie profile
>>>> in the Samsung Display Color Preference for all testing just in
>>> case. Calibrating the Lacie to
>>>> 6500 or to a higher or lower luminance does not help. Also
>>> calibrating the Lacie (over the
>>>> previous hardware calibration) with Spyder Pro or Eye One
> software
>>> calibration changes
>>>> things a teeny bit on screen but printed I find any difference
>>> indiscernible. Certainly not
>>>> meaningful relative to the yellow/green shift.
>>>>
>>>> So my questions are:
>>>>
>>>> What am I doing wrong?
>>>> Is this level of color shift in spec for Printfix Pro?
>>>> Is my spectro off?
>>>> Is it necessary to have your primary viewing monitor on a Mac
> be
>>> setup as such in
>>>> Photoshop so that its profile is the start of color management,
> or
>>> does it automatically
>>>> recognize the monitor the image is viewed on as the source
> monitor?
>>>> If it is necessary, is there a way to do this (other than
> manually
>>> as I have been doing) and
>>>> still have the menu bar on the secondary monitor? I like not
> having
>>> anything but the photo
>>>> on the viewing monitor.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, I love the black and white possibilities with PPF.
> With
>>> my printer left on color,
>>>> once the profile is tweaked, it works impressively for Black
> and
>>> White printing. Also, I
>>>> found it helpful tweaking out this color shift with a black and
>>> white image since the shifts
>>>> show up quite clearly against grays and black. And finally,
>>> contrast and brightness are
>>>> easier for me to discern without the distraction of color. So
> for
>>> color profiles, what a nice
>>>> addition the extended grays have brought to the tools!
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for any advice.
>>>>
>>>> Will
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I'd like to hear comments from any of you using PFP 2.0 to profile  
black and white printers.

My biggest headache with digital printing of black and white images  
is the tendency for very dark tones to look posterized (paint-by- 
numbers look) instead of showing subtle gradations.  This is  
especially problematic with matte papers.

I am now using MIS UT3D inks on an Epson 2200, and trying to generate  
profiles for Epson EM, Moaba's Kayenta, Breathing Colour's Sterling  
Rag, and Kirkland glossy. So far nothing looks as good as the simple  
EZ system MIS sells for the Epson C86 (which just lets the printer  
think it is printing colour), or the HP system that had a special  
black cartridge for printing B&W images.

I haven't begun experimenting with PFP 2.0's adjustments yet. If you  
have experimented, can you give me any direction?

I've been printing "silver" for thirty some years, so my expectations  
and strategies are suitably skewed.

Myron

Hello folks,
...have you considered that Paper White Compensation is only for
softproofing and doesn't alter the print?

Best
Peter


--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Myron Gochnauer <goch@...>
wrote:

>
> My experience has been that Paper White Compensation is necessary  
> (and possible) only with brightened papers. With non OBA papers there  
> are no negative numbers to begin with.
> 
> Myron
> 
> 
> On 6-Jan-07, at 3:01 PM, bwinkjet wrote:
> 
> > Will,
> > I'm not sure, but suspect that the way Colorvision has chosen to deal
> > with the UV effects of OBA's may be the variable.  I will, when I get
> > time, profile a non OBA paper and see if the need to check Paper
> > White Compensation remains necessary to obviate a great part of the
> > color cast we note.
> > Paul
> >
> > --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "willruggles" <2rcp@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Hey Paul,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the encouragement. I am glad to hear that you arrived at
> >> good profiles and found that all your gear was OK. With the
> > variables
> >> of a new (and expensive!) monitor setup, and a new iteration of the
> >> program, it got confusing for me. I wonder why we are experiencing
> >> roughly the same color shift issues, manageable as they may be with
> > a
> >> relatively consistent range of adjustments. On the other hand,
> > though
> >> you have found that different levels of Magenta and Blue will put
> >> things right, the need for up to 5 Magenta and 12 Blue indicates
> > what
> >> is to me a lot of Green/Yellow to compensate for. The down side of
> >> this is it can present the need for a lot of testing, which is what
> > I
> >> bought PFP to avoid. I wonder if it is that Eizo and Lacie have
> >> similar methods of describing and arriving at neutral colors, and
> > that
> >> these are different from the Colorvision models used in developing
> >> PrinFixPro? I look forward to a response from David (s) to get his
> >> take on this color shift issue and on my questions about using dual
> >> monitors on a Mac in my original post.
> >>
> >> Thanks again,
> >>
> >> Will
> >>
> >> .--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "bwinkjet" <bwinkjet@>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Will,
> >>>
> >>> Much of what you describe has been my experience as well.  David
> >>> (both) helped and with a lot of work on my own I now have
> > profiles
> >>> that I feel are better than the canned profiles and as good as if
> > not
> >>> better than those provided with Image Print Rip.
> >>>
> >>> My solution is:  When creating the profile go to reference white
> > and
> >>> check the box Paper White Compensation, effectively setting the b
> >>> axis to 0.  With this done depending on the paper I am able to
> > get
> >>> very good profiles with 4-12 units of blue and on some, but not
> > all,
> >>> papers up to 5 units of magenta.  This is easily tweaked by
> > several
> >>> iterations until you are pleased.  I too worried my Eizo monitor
> >>> (profiled) was off and tried calibration at 5500 up to 6500,
> > gamma
> >>> 1.8 and 2.2 and have come to the conclusion my monitor is OK, my
> >>> printers are OK and the spectrocolorimeter is OK.  It took a
> > while,
> >>> but I learned a great deal including the viewing light is crucial.
> >>>
> >>> HTH
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> "willruggles" <2rcp@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I am confused. I just got a Lacie 321 and also changed from
> >>> Printfix Pro Beta to the final
> >>>> 2.0 version. I printed a 225 patch as well as the extended gray
> > one
> >>> on Epson En Matte, and
> >>>> after drying, read them, finally making profiles with and
> > without
> >>> the Extended Gray.
> >>>> Printing from within PFP the Brightness and Contrast were
> > pretty
> >>> close, and saturation a bit
> >>>> high, but the color was way off toward Yellow/Green. I printed
> > some
> >>> other images. They
> >>>> also printed off with this green/yellow cast in color and black
> > and
> >>> white. Also, I saw little
> >>>> difference with an intent of Sat or Perc.
> >>>>
> >>>> I was amazed since I had had better luck earlier with beta
> > versions
> >>> and using my old
> >>>> monitor. So I tried a 729 with X-Gray reading. Very close to
> > the
> >>> 225 and off! I had to
> >>>> adjust the Green down 6, Red up 1, and the Blue up 12 to get a
> >>> decent match for my
> >>>> monitor. Even with the new subtler color slider values this
> > seems
> >>> like a lot of adjustment
> >>>> after nearly 1000 readings to make the profile for the printer.
> > And
> >>> all the gear is good
> >>>> stuff that is carefully calibrated.
> >>>>
> >>>> I use an Epson 2200 and Mac OS 10.4.8, a Lacie 321 and a
> > Samsung
> >>> 191T. I have the
> >>>> desktop, menus and tools on the Samsung and the images from
> >>> Photoshop on the Lacie.
> >>>> Both monitors are calibrated to 5000K 2.2 gamma, 110 Luminance
> > and
> >>> I use a 5000K
> >>>> viewing light. The Lacie is hardware calibrated and the
> > Samsung's
> >>> hardware is RGB
> >>>> adjusted for color and luminance and software calibrated. They
> > both
> >>> look Neutral and
> >>>> when dragging images across them, the color is pretty close. I
> > am
> >>> using Adobe RGB for the
> >>>> Photoshop color space and printing to the new profiles,
> > perceptual
> >>> intent and letting
> >>>> photoshop determine colors. The Epson paper choice is for
> > Enhanced
> >>> Matte (the paper I
> >>>> am profiling for) with no color management.
> >>>>
> >>>> First I wondered if Photoshop was using the profile from the
> >>> Samsung while I was
> >>>> adjusting images on the Lacie since the Mac menu bar and
> > Photoshop
> >>> tools are on the
> >>>> samsung. So I looked, and its profile does show up as the
> > monitor
> >>> in use in the workspace
> >>>> pull down in photoshop's color settings (I keep the workspace
> > set
> >>> at Adobe RGB). So I set
> >>>> the Samsung Display preference to use the same profile as the
> >>> Lacie, but the printing
> >>>> seemed about the same. I do have the Samsung basically hardware
> >>> calibrated though, so
> >>>> Photoshop could be using its profile and it is so close to the
> >>> Lacie profile that I have not
> >>>> seen the difference in my limited testing. In the meantime I am
> >>> choosing the Lacie profile
> >>>> in the Samsung Display Color Preference for all testing just in
> >>> case. Calibrating the Lacie to
> >>>> 6500 or to a higher or lower luminance does not help. Also
> >>> calibrating the Lacie (over the
> >>>> previous hardware calibration) with Spyder Pro or Eye One
> > software
> >>> calibration changes
> >>>> things a teeny bit on screen but printed I find any difference
> >>> indiscernible. Certainly not
> >>>> meaningful relative to the yellow/green shift.
> >>>>
> >>>> So my questions are:
> >>>>
> >>>> What am I doing wrong?
> >>>> Is this level of color shift in spec for Printfix Pro?
> >>>> Is my spectro off?
> >>>> Is it necessary to have your primary viewing monitor on a Mac
> > be
> >>> setup as such in
> >>>> Photoshop so that its profile is the start of color management,
> > or
> >>> does it automatically
> >>>> recognize the monitor the image is viewed on as the source
> > monitor?
> >>>> If it is necessary, is there a way to do this (other than
> > manually
> >>> as I have been doing) and
> >>>> still have the menu bar on the secondary monitor? I like not
> > having
> >>> anything but the photo
> >>>> on the viewing monitor.
> >>>>
> >>>> By the way, I love the black and white possibilities with PPF.
> > With
> >>> my printer left on color,
> >>>> once the profile is tweaked, it works impressively for Black
> > and
> >>> White printing. Also, I
> >>>> found it helpful tweaking out this color shift with a black and
> >>> white image since the shifts
> >>>> show up quite clearly against grays and black. And finally,
> >>> contrast and brightness are
> >>>> easier for me to discern without the distraction of color. So
> > for
> >>> color profiles, what a nice
> >>>> addition the extended grays have brought to the tools!
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for any advice.
> >>>>
> >>>> Will
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi Peter

Maybe so, don't claim to know all about these things.  I can say 
profiles are better since checking it and then wondering where the 
yellow went.  (and I don't use Pepsodent)  Guess you are saying 
something about the power of suggestion.  Maybe David can help me out 
here.

Paul

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "peter_woelk" 
<peter_woelk@...> wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
> ...have you considered that Paper White Compensation is only for
> softproofing and doesn't alter the print?
> 
> Best
> Peter
> 
> 
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Myron Gochnauer <goch@>
> wrote:
> >
> > My experience has been that Paper White Compensation is 
necessary  
> > (and possible) only with brightened papers. With non OBA papers 
there  
> > are no negative numbers to begin with.
> > 
> > Myron
> > 
> > 
> > On 6-Jan-07, at 3:01 PM, bwinkjet wrote:
> > 
> > > Will,
> > > I'm not sure, but suspect that the way Colorvision has chosen 
to deal
> > > with the UV effects of OBA's may be the variable.  I will, when 
I get
> > > time, profile a non OBA paper and see if the need to check Paper
> > > White Compensation remains necessary to obviate a great part of 
the
> > > color cast we note.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "willruggles" <2rcp@>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hey Paul,
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for the encouragement. I am glad to hear that you 
arrived at
> > >> good profiles and found that all your gear was OK. With the
> > > variables
> > >> of a new (and expensive!) monitor setup, and a new iteration 
of the
> > >> program, it got confusing for me. I wonder why we are 
experiencing
> > >> roughly the same color shift issues, manageable as they may be 
with
> > > a
> > >> relatively consistent range of adjustments. On the other hand,
> > > though
> > >> you have found that different levels of Magenta and Blue will 
put
> > >> things right, the need for up to 5 Magenta and 12 Blue 
indicates
> > > what
> > >> is to me a lot of Green/Yellow to compensate for. The down 
side of
> > >> this is it can present the need for a lot of testing, which is 
what
> > > I
> > >> bought PFP to avoid. I wonder if it is that Eizo and Lacie have
> > >> similar methods of describing and arriving at neutral colors, 
and
> > > that
> > >> these are different from the Colorvision models used in 
developing
> > >> PrinFixPro? I look forward to a response from David (s) to get 
his
> > >> take on this color shift issue and on my questions about using 
dual
> > >> monitors on a Mac in my original post.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks again,
> > >>
> > >> Will
> > >>
> > >> .--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "bwinkjet" 
<bwinkjet@>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Will,
> > >>>
> > >>> Much of what you describe has been my experience as well.  
David
> > >>> (both) helped and with a lot of work on my own I now have
> > > profiles
> > >>> that I feel are better than the canned profiles and as good 
as if
> > > not
> > >>> better than those provided with Image Print Rip.
> > >>>
> > >>> My solution is:  When creating the profile go to reference 
white
> > > and
> > >>> check the box Paper White Compensation, effectively setting 
the b
> > >>> axis to 0.  With this done depending on the paper I am able to
> > > get
> > >>> very good profiles with 4-12 units of blue and on some, but 
not
> > > all,
> > >>> papers up to 5 units of magenta.  This is easily tweaked by
> > > several
> > >>> iterations until you are pleased.  I too worried my Eizo 
monitor
> > >>> (profiled) was off and tried calibration at 5500 up to 6500,
> > > gamma
> > >>> 1.8 and 2.2 and have come to the conclusion my monitor is OK, 
my
> > >>> printers are OK and the spectrocolorimeter is OK.  It took a
> > > while,
> > >>> but I learned a great deal including the viewing light is 
crucial.
> > >>>
> > >>> HTH
> > >>>
> > >>> Paul
> > >>>
> > >>> "willruggles" <2rcp@> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am confused. I just got a Lacie 321 and also changed from
> > >>> Printfix Pro Beta to the final
> > >>>> 2.0 version. I printed a 225 patch as well as the extended 
gray
> > > one
> > >>> on Epson En Matte, and
> > >>>> after drying, read them, finally making profiles with and
> > > without
> > >>> the Extended Gray.
> > >>>> Printing from within PFP the Brightness and Contrast were
> > > pretty
> > >>> close, and saturation a bit
> > >>>> high, but the color was way off toward Yellow/Green. I 
printed
> > > some
> > >>> other images. They
> > >>>> also printed off with this green/yellow cast in color and 
black
> > > and
> > >>> white. Also, I saw little
> > >>>> difference with an intent of Sat or Perc.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I was amazed since I had had better luck earlier with beta
> > > versions
> > >>> and using my old
> > >>>> monitor. So I tried a 729 with X-Gray reading. Very close to
> > > the
> > >>> 225 and off! I had to
> > >>>> adjust the Green down 6, Red up 1, and the Blue up 12 to get 
a
> > >>> decent match for my
> > >>>> monitor. Even with the new subtler color slider values this
> > > seems
> > >>> like a lot of adjustment
> > >>>> after nearly 1000 readings to make the profile for the 
printer.
> > > And
> > >>> all the gear is good
> > >>>> stuff that is carefully calibrated.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I use an Epson 2200 and Mac OS 10.4.8, a Lacie 321 and a
> > > Samsung
> > >>> 191T. I have the
> > >>>> desktop, menus and tools on the Samsung and the images from
> > >>> Photoshop on the Lacie.
> > >>>> Both monitors are calibrated to 5000K 2.2 gamma, 110 
Luminance
> > > and
> > >>> I use a 5000K
> > >>>> viewing light. The Lacie is hardware calibrated and the
> > > Samsung's
> > >>> hardware is RGB
> > >>>> adjusted for color and luminance and software calibrated. 
They
> > > both
> > >>> look Neutral and
> > >>>> when dragging images across them, the color is pretty close. 
I
> > > am
> > >>> using Adobe RGB for the
> > >>>> Photoshop color space and printing to the new profiles,
> > > perceptual
> > >>> intent and letting
> > >>>> photoshop determine colors. The Epson paper choice is for
> > > Enhanced
> > >>> Matte (the paper I
> > >>>> am profiling for) with no color management.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> First I wondered if Photoshop was using the profile from the
> > >>> Samsung while I was
> > >>>> adjusting images on the Lacie since the Mac menu bar and
> > > Photoshop
> > >>> tools are on the
> > >>>> samsung. So I looked, and its profile does show up as the
> > > monitor
> > >>> in use in the workspace
> > >>>> pull down in photoshop's color settings (I keep the workspace
> > > set
> > >>> at Adobe RGB). So I set
> > >>>> the Samsung Display preference to use the same profile as the
> > >>> Lacie, but the printing
> > >>>> seemed about the same. I do have the Samsung basically 
hardware
> > >>> calibrated though, so
> > >>>> Photoshop could be using its profile and it is so close to 
the
> > >>> Lacie profile that I have not
> > >>>> seen the difference in my limited testing. In the meantime I 
am
> > >>> choosing the Lacie profile
> > >>>> in the Samsung Display Color Preference for all testing just 
in
> > >>> case. Calibrating the Lacie to
> > >>>> 6500 or to a higher or lower luminance does not help. Also
> > >>> calibrating the Lacie (over the
> > >>>> previous hardware calibration) with Spyder Pro or Eye One
> > > software
> > >>> calibration changes
> > >>>> things a teeny bit on screen but printed I find any 
difference
> > >>> indiscernible. Certainly not
> > >>>> meaningful relative to the yellow/green shift.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> So my questions are:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What am I doing wrong?
> > >>>> Is this level of color shift in spec for Printfix Pro?
> > >>>> Is my spectro off?
> > >>>> Is it necessary to have your primary viewing monitor on a Mac
> > > be
> > >>> setup as such in
> > >>>> Photoshop so that its profile is the start of color 
management,
> > > or
> > >>> does it automatically
> > >>>> recognize the monitor the image is viewed on as the source
> > > monitor?
> > >>>> If it is necessary, is there a way to do this (other than
> > > manually
> > >>> as I have been doing) and
> > >>>> still have the menu bar on the secondary monitor? I like not
> > > having
> > >>> anything but the photo
> > >>>> on the viewing monitor.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> By the way, I love the black and white possibilities with 
PPF.
> > > With
> > >>> my printer left on color,
> > >>>> once the profile is tweaked, it works impressively for Black
> > > and
> > >>> White printing. Also, I
> > >>>> found it helpful tweaking out this color shift with a black 
and

> > >>> white image since the shifts
> > >>>> show up quite clearly against grays and black. And finally,
> > >>> contrast and brightness are
> > >>>> easier for me to discern without the distraction of color. So
> > > for
> > >>> color profiles, what a nice
> > >>>> addition the extended grays have brought to the tools!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks for any advice.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Will
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

>Hello folks,
>...have you considered that Paper White Compensation is only for
>softproofing and doesn't alter the print?
>

It does alter the print; build a profile with and without the checkbox
checked in the "Ref White..." control and you WILL see a difference
in the output.


Best regards,

-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Myron Gochnauer <goch@...> wrote:
>
> I'd like to hear comments from any of you using PFP 2.0 to profile  
> black and white printers.
> 
> My biggest headache with digital printing of black and white images  
> is the tendency for very dark tones to look posterized (paint-by- 
> numbers look) instead of showing subtle gradations.  This is  
> especially problematic with matte papers.
> 
> I am now using MIS UT3D inks on an Epson 2200, and trying to generate  
> profiles for Epson EM, Moaba's Kayenta, Breathing Colour's Sterling  
> Rag, and Kirkland glossy. So far nothing looks as good as the simple  
> EZ system MIS sells for the Epson C86 (which just lets the printer  
> think it is printing colour), or the HP system that had a special  
> black cartridge for printing B&W images.
> 
> I haven't begun experimenting with PFP 2.0's adjustments yet. If you  
> have experimented, can you give me any direction?
> 
> I've been printing "silver" for thirty some years, so my expectations  
> and strategies are suitably skewed.

Are you getting posterization with all of the papers?  I have profiled EEM, Premier Art Hot 
Press205, Ilford Smooth pearl, Crane Silver Rag and Epson Premium Glossy as well as 
some others I've dismissed, all with the UT3D and nothing has come out posterized except 
for a Crane print that I had split toned and pushed the warm highlights to an extreme to 
see what would happen, and even there the posterization was in the high end of the mid-
tones right where the split toning was ending.

A couple of things I found along the way if they might apply:  I've taken to reading all 
papers with an additional sheet of the same paper undeneath.  I was getting a lot of weird 
readings when trying to graph curve changes to 21 step ramps ala Paul Roark and I found 
two variables: the paper being too thin (use of the underlying second sheet is mentioned 
in the PFP help as necesary for thin papers but I found variations in all the papers I was 
using, the second was too aggressive use of a heat gun to dry prints before measuring.  
The change couldn't be seen by my naked eye but I could measure up to 3 L*a*b* points 
difference in paper white In sheets where I had or had not used the heat gun between 
different iterations so i assume the inked areas were off at least that amount as well.

Do you feel comfortable that your monitor would expose any posterization if it was in the 
image before printing?  I know I can push processes that are not visible in my laptop lcd 
but are visible in my desktop monitor.

Are you using Photo Black with glossies and Eboni with the mattes.  PFP doesn't have the 
ability to hold back the Eboni and double up the dark gray like Paul's curve method (as far 
as I know) so the use of Eboni on glossy papers will definately give a harsh gloss 
differential in the pure blacks and the ink will come off on your fingers as well.

Can you print a 21 step ramp through your profile and then read it with your spectro to 
see if you get good sharp step differences at the dark end of the ramp.?  And is the ramp 
going consistently in the same direction?

I will be profiling all of my papers on another printer of mine this week using the UT3D  I'll 
keep an eye out for anything that might tend toward posterization and let you know. 

 Robert

Hello David,
that's the original text from the PFP help file:

"Reference White Adjustment: The Ref White button allows users to 
adjust the way white previews on screen when using printer profile 
previewing functions such as Photoshop's Custom Proof Setup option to 
view a soft proof of how images will print to a particular printer, 
colorant, and media combination. This adjustment does not effect how 
images will print, its sole purpose is to adjust the on-screen 
preview of white."

I suspect that it could be false to read the help file! :)

Best
Peter

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...> 
wrote:
>
> >Hello folks,
> >...have you considered that Paper White Compensation is only for
> >softproofing and doesn't alter the print?
> >
> 
> It does alter the print; build a profile with and without the 
checkbox

> checked in the "Ref White..." control and you WILL see a difference
> in the output.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -- 
> David Miller
> Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> ColorVision
>

Hi,

I made 2 profiles.  One without any correction and one with Reference 
White Adjustment checked as only adjustment.  Clearly the one with 
RWA checked provides a print with less yellow and more magenta.  
David Miller is right as far as version 2 is concerned.

Paul

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "peter_woelk" 
<peter_woelk@...> wrote:
>
> Hello David,
> that's the original text from the PFP help file:
> 
> "Reference White Adjustment: The Ref White button allows users to 
> adjust the way white previews on screen when using printer profile 
> previewing functions such as Photoshop's Custom Proof Setup option 
to 
> view a soft proof of how images will print to a particular printer, 
> colorant, and media combination. This adjustment does not effect 
how 
> images will print, its sole purpose is to adjust the on-screen 
> preview of white."
> 
> I suspect that it could be false to read the help file! :)
> 
> Best
> Peter
> 
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > >Hello folks,
> > >...have you considered that Paper White Compensation is only for
> > >softproofing and doesn't alter the print?
> > >
> > 
> > It does alter the print; build a profile with and without the 
> checkbox
> > checked in the "Ref White..." control and you WILL see a 
difference

> > in the output.
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > 
> > -- 
> > David Miller
> > Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> > ColorVision
> >
>

bwinkjet,
yes I believe what you're reporting and I also believe what David 
says, thats not the question here. But delivering such a detailed 
help file with such an important mistake which fooled me in a way and 
prevents me trying it out by myselfe makes me ANGRY !!! :)

Peter

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "bwinkjet" <bwinkjet@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> I made 2 profiles.  One without any correction and one with 
Reference 
> White Adjustment checked as only adjustment.  Clearly the one with 
> RWA checked provides a print with less yellow and more magenta.  
> David Miller is right as far as version 2 is concerned.
> 
> Paul
> 
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "peter_woelk" 
> <peter_woelk@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello David,
> > that's the original text from the PFP help file:
> > 
> > "Reference White Adjustment: The Ref White button allows users to 
> > adjust the way white previews on screen when using printer 
profile 
> > previewing functions such as Photoshop's Custom Proof Setup 
option 
> to 
> > view a soft proof of how images will print to a particular 
printer, 
> > colorant, and media combination. This adjustment does not effect 
> how 
> > images will print, its sole purpose is to adjust the on-screen 
> > preview of white."
> > 
> > I suspect that it could be false to read the help file! :)
> > 
> > Best
> > Peter
> > 
> > --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hello folks,
> > > >...have you considered that Paper White Compensation is only 
for

> > > >softproofing and doesn't alter the print?
> > > >
> > > 
> > > It does alter the print; build a profile with and without the 
> > checkbox
> > > checked in the "Ref White..." control and you WILL see a 
> difference
> > > in the output.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Best regards,
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > David Miller
> > > Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> > > ColorVision
> > >
> >
>

Thanks David (and Paul). Will here.

My original post (1705) got all this going and has unfortunately been
lost in the shuffle I am afraid with the paper white ref riding to the
top of the conversation. Relative to that I have a few comments and
questions.

I do habitually click the Paper white reference, not because of
knowledge of exactly what it does, but because it makes sense to me
since it is taken from having read the "white" of the paper and this
would be a logical addition to the profile.

Also, as I said in the original post, I use 5000K on my monitor
calibration and a 5000K light so I am matched, though not at the temp
you suggest. Does this matter? Matched light with a calibration at
5000 versus 6500? If it does, I have not been successful in finding
this array of lights you spoke of. Lots of "daylight spectrum", but
the ones I found were 5000-6000K. On the GE sight all I could find at
6500 were normal fluorescents. Can you suggest a place to find compact
fluorescent bulbs or desktop/floor lamps that are 6500K?

Third, I was aware of the slider change as my post says. I am also
aware that the green/yellow shift is very noticeable after taking 967
readings to create the profile. Now that I am aware that I can expect
up to 13 blue and 6 magenta to balance the color it will be easier to
make profiles. It does seem bizarre and unexplainable to me though,
that such a complete color reading from colors printed by my own
printer and viewed on my very good, calibrated monitor could be
calculated in a way that would be so far off as to have what is
visually an extreme color cast. Can you explain this to me? Have I
done something wrong?

Fourth, relative to my Lacie lcd monitor, and the eizo I tried, they
do "look" more blue/magenta than my old Samsung calibrated to the same
color temp with the same software/colormeter. This is why I was
wondering if there was some potential for interpretation of neutral
color? On these high-end monitors, the grays are definitely evener
from white to black with no color casts in any area of the gray scale,
and though they do have a bluer/more magenta "feeling" they look
decidedly gray to me. Can this be a part of this issue of green/yellow
cast?

On your suggestion, I printed the gray test print from PFP through my
new profile and the largish gray panel next to the black one, just
left of the word Colorvision measures L=52.2, a=.32, b=1.30. I have no
knowledge of LAB. Can you interpret this? Or can you point me to a
good and simple tutorial that describes how to use LAB measurements? I
am wondering if this could be used as a pointer to adjusting profiles
accurately? Can it tell you whether to be looking at red rather than
magenta for example? or green versus yellow?

Finally, can you give me any insight into the dual monitor question I
asked in post 1705. I'm using a Mac and have the menus and tools on
one monitor that  I assume the Mac and Photoshop see as the primary
monitor since this is the desktop monitor. I like having my good
monitor completely empty except for the photo, therefore I put all the
menus on the other one. So the photo viewing monitor is what the Mac
considers the secondary monitor. The question is, does Photoshop/the
Mac "know" which monitor the photo is on as it initiates color managed
workflow? As I said in that post, to be safe, I have chosen the
profile of my photo viewing monitor in the preference of the monitor
that has the menus and desktop just in case the Mac needs that for
proper color management. This is tedious though and makes profiling
the tools monitor sort of irrelevant. Thus the question. Can you help?

Thanks very much,

Will




--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...> wrote:
>
> >Hey Paul,
> >
> >Thanks for the encouragement. I am glad to hear that you arrived at
> >good profiles and found that all your gear was OK. With the variables
> >of a new (and expensive!) monitor setup, and a new iteration of the
> >program, it got confusing for me. I wonder why we are experiencing
> >roughly the same color shift issues, manageable as they may be with a
> >relatively consistent range of adjustments. On the other hand, though
> >you have found that different levels of Magenta and Blue will put
> >things right, the need for up to 5 Magenta and 12 Blue indicates what
> >is to me a lot of Green/Yellow to compensate for. The down side of
> >this is it can present the need for a lot of testing, which is what I
> >bought PFP to avoid. I wonder if it is that Eizo and Lacie have
> >similar methods of describing and arriving at neutral colors, and that
> >these are different from the Colorvision models used in developing
> >PrinFixPro? I look forward to a response from David (s) to get his
> >take on this color shift issue and on my questions about using dual
> >monitors on a Mac in my original post.
> >
> 
> A couple of quick comments:
> 
> Calibrate your displays for D65, gamma 2.2. And when you view prints,
> use a "daylight spectrum" light bulb, with a color temperature of 6500K,
> to view them with. (Plenty of floor/table lamps sold this way, and you
> can also get bulbs from GE, for instance, if you look through the
product
> list on their web site).
> 
> In PFP 2.0, we changed the slider range adjustments, so they're "half as
> strong" as they were in the original 1.0 and 1.1.1 versions.
> 
> So an adjustment of 5 magenta in 2.0 is the equivalent of 2.5 in the
older
> versions; and 12 Blue is the equivalent of 6 in the older versions;
these
> are both very small adjustments; the numbers aren't as "big" as they
seem
> to be.
> 
> In terms of "neutral", what you can do to check the actual neutrality of
> printing through your profiles, in terms of how the spectro sees color,
> is this: after you've built a profile with all sliders at 0, (and
this should
> be a profile created from both a color target and the extended grays
> supplement), take a grayscale image (for example, the B&W test image we
> provide) and print it through the profile.
> 
> Then use the Measure tool in PFP and measure the grays that you've
printed.
> (For example, one of the solid gray patches at or near 50% gray).
> 
> See what Lab values the spectro reads. A "perfectly" neutral gray
will have
> a Lab where a = b = 0.0
> 
> That kind of ultimate perfection isn't going to happen, but you
should get

> a and b values that are close to 0. Regardless of what things look like
> to your eyes, that's what "neutral" really measures as.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -- 
> David Miller
> Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> ColorVision
>

Hello All,

   It seems that there's been a few issues regarding a green/yellow
cast in profiles created with PrintFix Pro. I'm picking up on Will's
thread below as it seems like his final questions relating to this
issue were not answered, although it is possible I missed it.
   I'm currently using version 2.0 of the software and have
experienced this issue on a number of paper and printer combinations.
Most recently, I've created several profiles for my Canon IPF5000
printer using Ilford Smooth Pearl and Canon Premium Bright Photo Satin
paper. Both profiles exhibit the green/yellow color cast, particularly
noticeable on color skin tones and black and white prints. Setting
paper white reference seems to have greatly improved the Canon paper's
profile but not much effect on Ilford. The Canon paper is noticeably
whiter than Ilford Smooth Pearl. In each case I'm using the 225 patch
color target in addition to the extended gray target.
   I also have experienced the same issue on my Hp DesignJet 130 using
HP Premium Plus Photo Satin paper. I've tried a few times but have
never been able to get an acceptable profile, with or without paper
white compensation. This printer/paper combination gives the most
noticeable color cast with the Print Fix Pro profile.
   I could try playing around with the color sliders to compensate for
the color cast but do not want to get into tweaking each profile
individually in order to compensate for this. It's also pretty
difficult to do this using the softproof function because the cast is
difficult to notice on the monitor, but definitely there on the prints. 
   I'm wondering if there isn't some inherent issue with background
paper white compensation. The papers that have given me the most
trouble seem to be the ones that are not pure white. The yellow/green
cast is subtle but as I mentioned above is most noticeable on skin
tones and Black & Whites.
   Any help to resolve this would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim


--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "willruggles" <2rcp@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks David (and Paul). Will here.
> 
> My original post (1705) got all this going and has unfortunately been
> lost in the shuffle I am afraid with the paper white ref riding to the
> top of the conversation. Relative to that I have a few comments and
> questions.
> 
> I do habitually click the Paper white reference, not because of
> knowledge of exactly what it does, but because it makes sense to me
> since it is taken from having read the "white" of the paper and this
> would be a logical addition to the profile.
> 
> Also, as I said in the original post, I use 5000K on my monitor
> calibration and a 5000K light so I am matched, though not at the temp
> you suggest. Does this matter? Matched light with a calibration at
> 5000 versus 6500? If it does, I have not been successful in finding
> this array of lights you spoke of. Lots of "daylight spectrum", but
> the ones I found were 5000-6000K. On the GE sight all I could find at
> 6500 were normal fluorescents. Can you suggest a place to find compact
> fluorescent bulbs or desktop/floor lamps that are 6500K?
> 
> Third, I was aware of the slider change as my post says. I am also
> aware that the green/yellow shift is very noticeable after taking 967
> readings to create the profile. Now that I am aware that I can expect
> up to 13 blue and 6 magenta to balance the color it will be easier to
> make profiles. It does seem bizarre and unexplainable to me though,
> that such a complete color reading from colors printed by my own
> printer and viewed on my very good, calibrated monitor could be
> calculated in a way that would be so far off as to have what is
> visually an extreme color cast. Can you explain this to me? Have I
> done something wrong?
> 
> Fourth, relative to my Lacie lcd monitor, and the eizo I tried, they
> do "look" more blue/magenta than my old Samsung calibrated to the same
> color temp with the same software/colormeter. This is why I was
> wondering if there was some potential for interpretation of neutral
> color? On these high-end monitors, the grays are definitely evener
> from white to black with no color casts in any area of the gray scale,
> and though they do have a bluer/more magenta "feeling" they look
> decidedly gray to me. Can this be a part of this issue of green/yellow
> cast?
> 
> On your suggestion, I printed the gray test print from PFP through my
> new profile and the largish gray panel next to the black one, just
> left of the word Colorvision measures L=52.2, a=.32, b=1.30. I have no
> knowledge of LAB. Can you interpret this? Or can you point me to a
> good and simple tutorial that describes how to use LAB measurements? I
> am wondering if this could be used as a pointer to adjusting profiles
> accurately? Can it tell you whether to be looking at red rather than
> magenta for example? or green versus yellow?
> 
> Finally, can you give me any insight into the dual monitor question I
> asked in post 1705. I'm using a Mac and have the menus and tools on
> one monitor that  I assume the Mac and Photoshop see as the primary
> monitor since this is the desktop monitor. I like having my good
> monitor completely empty except for the photo, therefore I put all the
> menus on the other one. So the photo viewing monitor is what the Mac
> considers the secondary monitor. The question is, does Photoshop/the
> Mac "know" which monitor the photo is on as it initiates color managed
> workflow? As I said in that post, to be safe, I have chosen the
> profile of my photo viewing monitor in the preference of the monitor
> that has the menus and desktop just in case the Mac needs that for
> proper color management. This is tedious though and makes profiling
> the tools monitor sort of irrelevant. Thus the question. Can you help?
> 
> Thanks very much,
> 
> Will

Hi,
 
I had the same problem when profiling a dye sublimation printer. I culd
solve the problem bt unchecking absolute grays box on the screen where you
define profile parameters like curves.
 
Regards
 
Eesh Dewan
 

-----Original Message-----
From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 2:14 AM
To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [colorvision_group] Re: Printfix Pro Spectro Issue? Prints
Yellow/Green



Hello All,

It seems that there's been a few issues regarding a green/yellow
cast in profiles created with PrintFix Pro. I'm picking up on Will's
thread below as it seems like his final questions relating to this
issue were not answered, although it is possible I missed it.
I'm currently using version 2.0 of the software and have
experienced this issue on a number of paper and printer combinations.
Most recently, I've created several profiles for my Canon IPF5000
printer using Ilford Smooth Pearl and Canon Premium Bright Photo Satin
paper. Both profiles exhibit the green/yellow color cast, particularly
noticeable on color skin tones and black and white prints. Setting
paper white reference seems to have greatly improved the Canon paper's
profile but not much effect on Ilford. The Canon paper is noticeably
whiter than Ilford Smooth Pearl. In each case I'm using the 225 patch
color target in addition to the extended gray target.
I also have experienced the same issue on my Hp DesignJet 130 using
HP Premium Plus Photo Satin paper. I've tried a few times but have
never been able to get an acceptable profile, with or without paper
white compensation. This printer/paper combination gives the most
noticeable color cast with the Print Fix Pro profile.
I could try playing around with the color sliders to compensate for
the color cast but do not want to get into tweaking each profile
individually in order to compensate for this. It's also pretty
difficult to do this using the softproof function because the cast is
difficult to notice on the monitor, but definitely there on the prints. 
I'm wondering if there isn't some inherent issue with background
paper white compensation. The papers that have given me the most
trouble seem to be the ones that are not pure white. The yellow/green
cast is subtle but as I mentioned above is most noticeable on skin
tones and Black & Whites.
Any help to resolve this would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim

--- In colorvision_ <mailto:colorvision_group%40yahoogroups.com>
group@yahoogroups.com, "willruggles" <2rcp@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks David (and Paul). Will here.
> 
> My original post (1705) got all this going and has unfortunately been
> lost in the shuffle I am afraid with the paper white ref riding to the
> top of the conversation. Relative to that I have a few comments and
> questions.
> 
> I do habitually click the Paper white reference, not because of
> knowledge of exactly what it does, but because it makes sense to me
> since it is taken from having read the "white" of the paper and this
> would be a logical addition to the profile.
> 
> Also, as I said in the original post, I use 5000K on my monitor
> calibration and a 5000K light so I am matched, though not at the temp
> you suggest. Does this matter? Matched light with a calibration at
> 5000 versus 6500? If it does, I have not been successful in finding
> this array of lights you spoke of. Lots of "daylight spectrum", but
> the ones I found were 5000-6000K. On the GE sight all I could find at
> 6500 were normal fluorescents. Can you suggest a place to find compact
> fluorescent bulbs or desktop/floor lamps that are 6500K?
> 
> Third, I was aware of the slider change as my post says. I am also
> aware that the green/yellow shift is very noticeable after taking 967
> readings to create the profile. Now that I am aware that I can expect
> up to 13 blue and 6 magenta to balance the color it will be easier to
> make profiles. It does seem bizarre and unexplainable to me though,
> that such a complete color reading from colors printed by my own
> printer and viewed on my very good, calibrated monitor could be
> calculated in a way that would be so far off as to have what is
> visually an extreme color cast. Can you explain this to me? Have I
> done something wrong?
> 
> Fourth, relative to my Lacie lcd monitor, and the eizo I tried, they
> do "look" more blue/magenta than my old Samsung calibrated to the same
> color temp with the same software/colormeter. This is why I was
> wondering if there was some potential for interpretation of neutral
> color? On these high-end monitors, the grays are definitely evener
> from white to black with no color casts in any area of the gray scale,
> and though they do have a bluer/more magenta "feeling" they look
> decidedly gray to me. Can this be a part of this issue of green/yellow
> cast?
> 
> On your suggestion, I printed the gray test print from PFP through my
> new profile and the largish gray panel next to the black one, just
> left of the word Colorvision measures L=52.2, a=.32, b=1.30. I have no
> knowledge of LAB. Can you interpret this? Or can you point me to a
> good and simple tutorial that describes how to use LAB measurements? I
> am wondering if this could be used as a pointer to adjusting profiles
> accurately? Can it tell you whether to be looking at red rather than
> magenta for example? or green versus yellow?
> 
> Finally, can you give me any insight into the dual monitor question I
> asked in post 1705. I'm using a Mac and have the menus and tools on
> one monitor that I assume the Mac and Photoshop see as the primary
> monitor since this is the desktop monitor. I like having my good
> monitor completely empty except for the photo, therefore I put all the
> menus on the other one. So the photo viewing monitor is what the Mac
> considers the secondary monitor. The question is, does Photoshop/the
> Mac "know" which monitor the photo is on as it initiates color managed
> workflow? As I said in that post, to be safe, I have chosen the
> profile of my photo viewing monitor in the preference of the monitor
> that has the menus and desktop just in case the Mac needs that for
> proper color management. This is tedious though and makes profiling
> the tools monitor sort of irrelevant. Thus the question. Can you help?
> 
> Thanks very much,
> 
> Will

David and Eash - It would not surprise me that paper tone may be the issue.
I'm going to try this suggestion and will report back on what I find.
 
Thanks,
Jim
 


  _____  

From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of CDTobie@...
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:43 PM
To: eeshdewan@...; colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [colorvision_group] Re: Printfix Pro Spectro Issue? Prints
Yellow/Green




In a message dated 4/2/07 9:26:33 PM, eeshdewan@... writes:





I had the same problem when profiling a dye sublimation printer. I culd
solve the problem bt unchecking absolute grays box on the screen where you
define profile parameters like curves.


The alternative to absolute grays is paper relative grays, so if the paper
tone is the issue, then this could indeed be useful...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

on 04/02/2007 10:43 PM James said the following:
>    It seems that there's been a few issues regarding a green/yellow
> cast in profiles created with PrintFix Pro. I'm picking up on Will's
> thread below as it seems like his final questions relating to this
> issue were not answered, although it is possible I missed it.

To add a few more papers/data points to the discussion...

None of the papers I tried on the Canon IP4300 gives me clean black with
the PFP profiles even though using black only ink will give me clean black
on some papers. They all have the green cast. PFP software 2.0 and 2.1b1.

Hahnem\ufffdhle FineArt Pearl, Tecco PPG250 Super Glossy Pearl, Tecco PL285
Luster, Photolux StudioPRO2 Glossy and Photolux StudioPro Pearl.

I even had papers measured by someone else with his own spectro, just to
make sure I don't have a defective measuring device.

Setting white compensation seems to have a mild positive effect, but still
keeps the green cast.

EyeOne Photo gives me correct profiles without any tweaks.
So I would say the paper/ink combinations are ok, something in the way the
PFP software or the measuring unit works has a problem.

cheers
afx

-- 
Espresso / Cappuccino ist wie Liebe,
man muss sich heute die gleiche M\ufffdhe geben wie gestern
und morgen noch mehr !
Espresso / Cappuccino is like love.
You need to put in the same effort today as yesterday
and tomorrow even more!

In a message dated 4/3/07 2:31:23 AM, afx@... writes:


> EyeOne Photo gives me correct profiles without any tweaks.
> So I would say the paper/ink combinations are ok, something in the way the
> PFP software or the measuring unit works has a problem.
> 
> This   would appear to be metamerism you are describing, and can't be 
controlled by profile, though you can "bias" a profile to be properly neutral under a 
different light source, if thats what you need. I printed with the new dye 
ink Canon PRO9000 at a show recently and found its metamerism to make B&W 
images, or even B&W components in color images, completely impossible to work with 
reasonably. The iPF5000 and larger printers released at the same time offer 
excellent B&W via pigment inks.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.

on 04/03/2007 03:19 PM CDTobie@... said the following:
> In a message dated 4/3/07 2:31:23 AM, afx@... writes:
> 
>> None of the papers I tried on the Canon IP4300 gives me clean black with
>> the PFP profiles even though using black only ink will give me clean black
>> on some papers. They all have the green cast. PFP software 2.0 and 2.1b1.
> 
> 
> Comparing black ink only to color ink blends isn't about the profile,
> nearly so much as it is about the inks...

Exactly. I just mention that to emphasize it is not the black ink that
causes the green cast.

cheers
afx

-- 
Espresso / Cappuccino ist wie Liebe,
man muss sich heute die gleiche M\ufffdhe geben wie gestern
und morgen noch mehr !
Espresso / Cappuccino is like love.
You need to put in the same effort today as yesterday
and tomorrow even more!

on 04/03/2007 03:23 PM CDTobie@... said the following:
> In a message dated 4/3/07 2:31:23 AM, afx@... writes:
> 
>> EyeOne Photo gives me correct profiles without any tweaks.
>> So I would say the paper/ink combinations are ok, something in the way the
>> PFP software or the measuring unit works has a problem.
>>
> This  would appear to be metamerism you are describing, and can't be
> controlled by profile, though you can "bias" a profile to be properly
> neutral under a different light source, if thats what you need. 

Hmm, I have an untweaked EyeOne Photo Profile that works like a charm,
independent of light source. Why would I need a light source tweaked PFP
profile?

Again, if EyeOne Photo generates a profile that just works without the
green cast no matter what light source, then I would expect PFP to be able
to do the same.

cheers
afx

-- 
Espresso / Cappuccino ist wie Liebe,
man muss sich heute die gleiche M\ufffdhe geben wie gestern
und morgen noch mehr !
Espresso / Cappuccino is like love.
You need to put in the same effort today as yesterday
and tomorrow even more!

Hi,

Yes that is one issue.  Other profiles: those made with other systems, canned profiles from 
manufactorers, and custom profiles do not have this problem.

The other issue, to me, is that many people do NOT, or have not reported this problem.  I 
wonder if there is a variable that has not yet been uncovered that causes certain of us to 
have the same problem.  I was told that that my profile and readings from my 
spectrocolorimeter were correct:  however I have yellow prints unless I correct the profile 
with +20 blue.  

So, what is the variable?  Our eyes?  Overly critical demands?  Or something about the PFP 
2.0 system itself?

Paul

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Siegert <afx@...> wrote:

>
> on 04/03/2007 03:23 PM CDTobie@... said the following:
> > In a message dated 4/3/07 2:31:23 AM, afx@... writes:
> > 
> >> EyeOne Photo gives me correct profiles without any tweaks.
> >> So I would say the paper/ink combinations are ok, something in the way the
> >> PFP software or the measuring unit works has a problem.
> >>
> > This  would appear to be metamerism you are describing, and can't be
> > controlled by profile, though you can "bias" a profile to be properly
> > neutral under a different light source, if thats what you need. 
> 
> Hmm, I have an untweaked EyeOne Photo Profile that works like a charm,
> independent of light source. Why would I need a light source tweaked PFP
> profile?
> 
> Again, if EyeOne Photo generates a profile that just works without the
> green cast no matter what light source, then I would expect PFP to be able
> to do the same.
> 
> cheers
> afx
> 
> -- 
> Espresso / Cappuccino ist wie Liebe,
> man muss sich heute die gleiche Mühe geben wie gestern
> und morgen noch mehr !
> Espresso / Cappuccino is like love.
> You need to put in the same effort today as yesterday
> and tomorrow even more!
>

Hi,

   I've completed a few more tests on both my HP DesignJet 130 and
Canon IPF5000 printers. It seems like I can marginally improve the
profile if I uncheck the absolute grays checkbox but it hasn't
eliminated the yellow/green cast I'm seeing on my prints. My best
profile so far seems to be with the Canon Premium Bright Photo Satin
paper. It also happens to be the whitest paper of the ones I'm
currently trying to profile. I don't know if that's significant but
figured it was probably worth mentioning.

   I've been running test prints on the Canon IPF5000 using the Print
Fix Pro monochrome test image, basically looking for a neutral gray
response. I'd say the Canon paper profile made with PrintFix Pro looks
pretty acceptable to me without any noticeable color cast. The Ilford
Smooth Pearl profile still has a noticeable yellow/green cast but it
has improved by using the suggestion to go with the relative grays
mode. It would probably be acceptable to some folks but is still
noticeable, especially when viewed against a neutral gray version of
the print.

   The HP DesignJet 130 hasn't improved much at all no matter what I
seem to try. I'm only printing in color mode on this printer as it
really doesn't do very good black and whites. I still have to resort
to using the canned HP profile for their Premium Plus Photo Satin
Paper as I really can't come close to it using PrintFix Pro. I just
keep getting the green/yellow cast, particularly noticeable on certain
prints. No cast with the HP profile.

   I've spent a fair amount of time creating different versions of
profiles. I don't mind tweaking a certain amount, particularly if I
might want to emphasize/deemphasize certain colors, but I do feel that
I should be able to produce a neutral profile without tweaking on my
part, particularly on the Canon printer.

   Question regarding the Spectro - When using it in measurement mode
do the reported values reflect calibration or is it reporting
uncalibreted Spectro data? For instance, if I perform the white
calibration using the tile on the Spectro holder I would expect the
measurement to report back zero for a and b values using the very same
tile. Is there a tolerance on this?

   Is there anything else I can do or try at this point in order to
get acceptable profiles?

Thanks,
Jim


--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "bwinkjet" <bwinkjet@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> Yes that is one issue.  Other profiles: those made with other
systems, canned profiles from 
> manufactorers, and custom profiles do not have this problem.
> 
> The other issue, to me, is that many people do NOT, or have not
reported this problem.  I 
> wonder if there is a variable that has not yet been uncovered that
causes certain of us to 
> have the same problem.  I was told that that my profile and readings
from my 
> spectrocolorimeter were correct:  however I have yellow prints
unless I correct the profile 
> with +20 blue.  
> 
> So, what is the variable?  Our eyes?  Overly critical demands?  Or
something about the PFP 

> 2.0 system itself?
> 
> Paul

Hi,

I agree that is a lot of blue (by the way it is an Ilford paper.).  However prints made with 
other canned profiles, profiles made with eye one and vendor profiles do NOT appear 
yellow in the same light.  Why?  I wish I knew too.  If something comes to light about this 
issue please post it or let me know.  Thanks.

Paul

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:

>
> 
> In a message dated 4/3/07 4:02:49 PM, bwinkjet@... writes:
> 
> 
> > I was told that that my profile and readings from my
> > spectrocolorimeter were correct:  however I have yellow prints unless I 
> > correct the profile
> > with +20 blue. 
> > 
> Thats a LOT of blue...
> > 
> > So, what is the variable?  Our eyes?  Overly critical demands?  Or something 
> > about the PFP
> > 2.0 system itself?
> > 
> I'd love to know too... +20 is more than a picky eye. Different lighting is 
> another possibility, but users are insisting that other profiles don't vary 
> with lighting. That would mean ours don't either... that they are just different, 
> which means that they need an adjustment, and the question is what 
> adjustment, and why its needed.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
>

I seem to have this issue as well. I pushed the slider to add 35 blue and
saw very minimal difference. I figured it was something I was doing wrong.
To make adjustments to a profile I was skipping the reading portion, opening
the previous profile and adjusting and rebuilding the profile. I am also
closing Photoshop and reopening before the next print. All my print driver
settings seem correct (I have been printing with Atkinson profiles for a few
years with good consistent results). Since it is near the end of the
semester here I have had to return to my former profiles and methods for the
time to get student work done, but if a resolution can be found I can do
some testing at down times.


david emerick 

emerick.blogspot.com
www.smcm.edu/~dnemerick

From: bwinkjet 
Hi,

Yes that is one issue.  Other profiles: those made with other systems,
canned profiles from
manufactorers, and custom profiles do not have this problem.

The other issue, to me, is that many people do NOT, or have not reported
this problem.  I 
wonder if there is a variable that has not yet been uncovered that causes
certain of us to 
have the same problem.  I was told that that my profile and readings from my
spectrocolorimeter were correct:  however I have yellow prints unless I
correct the profile
with +20 blue.  

So, what is the variable?  Our eyes?  Overly critical demands?  Or something
about the PFP 
2.0 system itself?

Paul