Datacolor User to User Support Group.

Cutting to the chase, my questions are (1) Whether I can get a better BW print using Epson ABW printing and a profile developed specifically for use with ABW printing, or using a grayscale profile built with Spyder3Print for use with a standard "Color" mode printing workflow on my Epson 4800?  (2) If ABW has advantages (better linearity, or otherwise), what's the best way to build an ABW profile?
BACKGROUND:  To my surprise, I found the other day that using Eric Chan's 3800 ABW profile for Innova Ultra Smooth on my 4800 produced a significantly better print than simply using my Epson 4800 ABW print dialog (same ABW settings except the "straight" ABW print used the Innova recommended paper type and "Printer Manages Colors," while the Eric Chan print used his recommended paper type and "Photoshop Manages Colors" with his 3800 profile.  
Naturally that made me want to explore building (or buying) an ABW profile specifically for my 4800.  Exploring that, I've found (1) a rather confusing -- to me -- thread in this group (@Jan. 2008) where CDTobie (of Datacolor, of course) indicates, as I understand his messages, "Yes, you can build an ABW profile with Spyder3Print (or predecessor product), but it's less flexible and no better than a regular profile built for use with the normal color printing workflow," and (2) a somewhat later thread in another group with a detailed workflow suggestion for building ABW profiles using a competitor's spectrophotometer and the QTR B&W test strip, with messages in the thread from CDTobie indicating how to accommodate that workflow to use the DataColor products (without commenting, so far as I can see, on whether the ABW profile workfliw will produce a superior result).

The theoretical advantage of AWB over color mode is that it uses  
slightly less color ink in the mix; so years from now it may have  
slightly less colorshift from fading. Both modes hold their neutrality  
well under different lighting conditions, so there the theoretical  
longterm difference is the only difference I can see in terms of output.

In terms of process the differences are greater. For those who don't  
use custom profiles AWB is a handy way to output B&W. For those who  
build Spyder3Print output profiles, using those profiles for B&W and  
tinted B&W output offers significant extra convenience and control. It  
allows a full ICC workflow with softproof, it allows cross-tints  
(which AWB does not do), and it allows neutrals in color images, or  
mixes of color and B&W images in a montage.

AWB profiles can be built with the shareware CreateICC utility and any  
of the Datacolor patch readers, but these are actually linearizations  
in the shell of an ICC profile, they do not control neutrality or  
tinting, only linearity. The user needs to tweak neutrality in the AWB  
controls, or blindly define tints there, and as mentioned above, this  
does not allow for cross-tints.

So the Datacolor profile method allows full ICC process from the same  
profile used for color printing, or from a rebuild of it, allows  
previews of neutrality and tinting, and subtle controls for all of  
this. But some purists will suggest the AWB route (despite the less  
documented tools and more difficult techniques) is theoretically more  
desirable due to the reduced color ink component (from very little, to  
even a little less).

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Jan 1, 2010, at 12:32 PM, "billy_iverson"  
<bill.iverson@...> wrote:

> Cutting to the chase, my questions are (1) Whether I can get a  
> better BW print using Epson ABW printing and a profile developed  
> specifically for use with ABW printing, or using a grayscale profile  
> built with Spyder3Print for use with a standard "Color" mode  
> printing workflow on my Epson 4800?  (2) If ABW has advantages  
> (better linearity, or otherwise), what's the best way to build an  
> ABW profile?
> BACKGROUND:  To my surprise, I found the other day that using Eric  
> Chan's 3800 ABW profile for Innova Ultra Smooth on my 4800 produced  
> a significantly better print than simply using my Epson 4800 ABW  
> print dialog (same ABW settings except the "straight" ABW print used  
> the Innova recommended paper type and "Printer Manages Colors,"  
> while the Eric Chan print used his recommended paper type and  
> "Photoshop Manages Colors" with his 3800 profile.
> Naturally that made me want to explore building (or buying) an ABW  
> profile specifically for my 4800.  Exploring that, I've found (1) a  
> rather confusing -- to me -- thread in this group (@Jan. 2008) where  
> CDTobie (of Datacolor, of course) indicates, as I understand his  
> messages, "Yes, you can build an ABW profile with Spyder3Print (or  
> predecessor product), but it's less flexible and no better than a  
> regular profile built for use with the normal color printing  
> workflow," and (2) a somewhat later thread in another group with a  
> detailed workflow suggestion for building ABW profiles using a  
> competitor's spectrophotometer and the QTR B&W test strip, with  
> messages in the thread from CDTobie indicating how to accommodate  
> that workflow to use the DataColor products (without commenting, so  
> far as I can see, on whether the ABW profile workfliw will produce a  
> superior result).
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Thanks for the helpful response.  A full 3D ICC profile for the Epson
color driver is clearly desirable if I want to tint my B&W prints.  But
I generally don't, and the ABW driver produces a better pure-neutral B&W
print than the Epson color driver can, with or without a custom profile
used with the color driver.   (Longevity is a secondary consideration,
and really not a consideration at all for me, since my photographs are
not displayed in a way that makes that a problem anytime soon.)

So I do still have the question whether I can produce a Lab L*
linearizing profile for use with ABW with the Datacolor product (don't
need to debate whether this is a true ICC profile, a "shell" profile, or
not a "true" profile).  I can use something like the CreateICC utility,
but I'd rather use a Datacolor profilemaker without a lot of klutzy
workarounds.

Thanks, Bill


--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
> The theoretical advantage of AWB over color mode is that it uses
> slightly less color ink in the mix; so years from now it may have
> slightly less colorshift from fading. Both modes hold their neutrality
> well under different lighting conditions, so there the theoretical
> longterm difference is the only difference I can see in terms of
output.

>
> In terms of process the differences are greater. For those who don't
> use custom profiles AWB is a handy way to output B&W. For those who
> build Spyder3Print output profiles, using those profiles for B&W and
> tinted B&W output offers significant extra convenience and control. It
> allows a full ICC workflow with softproof, it allows cross-tints
> (which AWB does not do), and it allows neutrals in color images, or
> mixes of color and B&W images in a montage.
>
> AWB profiles can be built with the shareware CreateICC utility and any
> of the Datacolor patch readers, but these are actually linearizations
> in the shell of an ICC profile, they do not control neutrality or
> tinting, only linearity. The user needs to tweak neutrality in the AWB
> controls, or blindly define tints there, and as mentioned above, this
> does not allow for cross-tints.
>
> So the Datacolor profile method allows full ICC process from the same
> profile used for color printing, or from a rebuild of it, allows
> previews of neutrality and tinting, and subtle controls for all of
> this. But some purists will suggest the AWB route (despite the less
> documented tools and more difficult techniques) is theoretically more
> desirable due to the reduced color ink component (from very little, to
> even a little less).
>
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
>
> On Jan 1, 2010, at 12:32 PM, "billy_iverson"
> bill.iverson@... wrote:
>
> > Cutting to the chase, my questions are (1) Whether I can get a
> > better BW print using Epson ABW printing and a profile developed
> > specifically for use with ABW printing, or using a grayscale profile
> > built with Spyder3Print for use with a standard "Color" mode
> > printing workflow on my Epson 4800? (2) If ABW has advantages
> > (better linearity, or otherwise), what's the best way to build an
> > ABW profile?
> > BACKGROUND: To my surprise, I found the other day that using Eric
> > Chan's 3800 ABW profile for Innova Ultra Smooth on my 4800 produced
> > a significantly better print than simply using my Epson 4800 ABW
> > print dialog (same ABW settings except the "straight" ABW print used
> > the Innova recommended paper type and "Printer Manages Colors,"
> > while the Eric Chan print used his recommended paper type and
> > "Photoshop Manages Colors" with his 3800 profile.
> > Naturally that made me want to explore building (or buying) an ABW
> > profile specifically for my 4800. Exploring that, I've found (1) a
> > rather confusing -- to me -- thread in this group (@Jan. 2008) where
> > CDTobie (of Datacolor, of course) indicates, as I understand his
> > messages, "Yes, you can build an ABW profile with Spyder3Print (or
> > predecessor product), but it's less flexible and no better than a
> > regular profile built for use with the normal color printing
> > workflow," and (2) a somewhat later thread in another group with a
> > detailed workflow suggestion for building ABW profiles using a
> > competitor's spectrophotometer and the QTR B&W test strip, with
> > messages in the thread from CDTobie indicating how to accommodate
> > that workflow to use the DataColor products (without commenting, so
> > far as I can see, on whether the ABW profile workfliw will produce a
> > superior result).
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

>>A full 3D ICC profile for the Epson
color driver is clearly desirable if I want to tint my B&W prints.  But
I generally don't, and the ABW driver produces a better pure-neutral B&W
print than the Epson color driver can, with or without a custom profile
used with the color driver.

I would bet that the opposite is true; try an AWB print of a gray  
ramp, and a Spyder profile for the color mode. Measure multiple points  
on the ramp in both prints. I find the a, b values from the color  
profiled print to typically be more measurably neutral, though this  
will vary with printer, inks, media, and settings.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Jan 5, 2010, at 4:33 PM, "bill_iverson_washington" <bill.iverson@... 

 > wrote:

> A full 3D ICC profile for the Epson
> color driver is clearly desirable if I want to tint my B&W prints.   
> But
> I generally don't, and the ABW driver produces a better pure-neutral  
> B&W
> print than the Epson color driver can, with or without a custom  
> profile
> used with the color driver.

>>So I do still have the question whether I can produce a Lab L*
linearizing profile for use with ABW with the Datacolor product (don't
need to debate whether this is a true ICC profile, a "shell" profile, or
not a "true" profile).  I can use something like the CreateICC utility,
but I'd rather use a Datacolor profilemaker without a lot of klutzy
workarounds.

If you want a set of linearization curves applied to a dummy ICC  
profile, you will need to use CreateICC to do that. Full 3d profiles  
are the only type that Spyder3Print builds.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Jan 5, 2010, at 4:33 PM, "bill_iverson_washington" <bill.iverson@... 

 > wrote:

> So I do still have the question whether I can produce a Lab L*
> linearizing profile for use with ABW with the Datacolor product (don't
> need to debate whether this is a true ICC profile, a "shell"  
> profile, or
> not a "true" profile).  I can use something like the CreateICC  
> utility,
> but I'd rather use a Datacolor profilemaker without a lot of klutzy
> workarounds.
>

I have to agree with CD that a standard profile is worth pursuing for 
neutral BW. When I first got my Epson R2880, I spent a lot of time with 
ABW and QuadtoneRIP, and wasted alot of paper in the process. I find 
that the 2880 is very linear and that a colour profile produced with 
Spyder3Print gives me very pleasing neutral prints without visible (to 
me) crossover, just a slight drift of Lab a & b when measured. I am very 
happy with my BW prints but YMMV.

Tim Mimpriss
--

Cdtobie wrote:

> 
> 
>  >>A full 3D ICC profile for the Epson
> color driver is clearly desirable if I want to tint my B&W prints.  But
> I generally don't, and the ABW driver produces a better pure-neutral B&W
> print than the Epson color driver can, with or without a custom profile
> used with the color driver. 
> 
> I would bet that the opposite is true; try an AWB print of a gray ramp, 
> and a Spyder profile for the color mode. Measure multiple points on the 
> ramp in both prints. I find the a, b values from the color profiled 
> print to typically be more measurably neutral, though this will vary 
> with printer, inks, media, and settings. 
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com <http://Datacolor.com>
> CDTobie@... <mailto:CDTobie@...>
>