Datacolor User to User Support Group.

I'm using the old 1005 spectro with v4.1.1 software under Snow Leopard and I am unable to produce a useful profile for Canon iP4500 with Kirkland paper and HobbyColor ink.

I print targets with Color Matching > Canon Color Matching and Color Options > Standard in the print dialog. Targets come out looking very similar to what's on screen, and the sample I print within Spyder3Print comes out gorgeous. Problem is, if I use this icc profile to print from anyplace else, it comes out all nasty, dark, greenish. In Preview I select Color Matching > ColorSync + created icc profile, Color Options > grayed out. In Lightroom and PS CS4 it works similarly. All produce nasty results.

With my Epson R280 I have no such problems. I print target with Color Matching > EPSON Color Controls, Color Management > Off. Photos printed from Preview with Color Matching > ColorSync + created icc profile look the same as when the sample is printed from Spyder3Print.

Any suggestions on how to print targets on Canon so I can produce useful ICC profiles?

>>'m using the old 1005 spectro with v4.1.1 software under Snow  
Leopard and I am unable to produce a useful profile for Canon iP4500  
with Kirkland paper and HobbyColor ink.

 >>I print targets with Color Matching > Canon Color Matching and  
Color Options > Standard in the print dialog. Targets come out looking  
very similar to what's on screen, and the sample I print within  
Spyder3Print comes out gorgeous.

Actually, if the prints from SpyderProof come out gorgeous, then you  
aren't having a problem creating a profile; you are having a problem  
using it. Something in your printing workflow is the suspect, since it  
prints correctly from SpyderProof.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Jan 9, 2010, at 2:08 AM, "marko.mili" <marko.mili@...> wrote:

> 'm using the old 1005 spectro with v4.1.1 software under Snow  
> Leopard and I am unable to produce a useful profile for Canon iP4500  
> with Kirkland paper and HobbyColor ink.
>
> I print targets with Color Matching > Canon Color Matching and Color  
> Options > Standard in the print dialog. Targets come out looking  
> very similar to what's on screen, and the sample I print within  
> Spyder3Print comes out gorgeous.

On Jan 9, 2010, at 5:08 AM, marko.mili wrote:

> I'm using the old 1005 spectro with v4.1.1 software under Snow  
> Leopard and I am unable to produce a useful profile for Canon iP4500  
> with Kirkland paper and HobbyColor ink.
>
> I print targets with Color Matching > Canon Color Matching and Color  
> Options > Standard in the print dialog. Targets come out looking  
> very similar to what's on screen, and the sample I print within  
> Spyder3Print comes out gorgeous. Problem is, if I use this icc  
> profile to print from anyplace else, it comes out all nasty, dark,  
> greenish. In Preview I select Color Matching > ColorSync + created  
> icc profile, Color Options > grayed out. In Lightroom and PS CS4 it  
> works similarly. All produce nasty results.
>
> With my Epson R280 I have no such problems. I print target with  
> Color Matching > EPSON Color Controls, Color Management > Off.  
> Photos printed from Preview with Color Matching > ColorSync +  
> created icc profile look the same as when the sample is printed from  
> Spyder3Print.
>
> Any suggestions on how to print targets on Canon so I can produce  
> useful ICC profiles?
>
>


Yes: The problem is: you're not printing the targets correctly.
There's a problem with all Canon drivers and Snow Leopard: (as
well as most Canon drivers under Leopard, unless you're lucky
enough to (a) be using the right driver, and (b) to have installed
it a certain way):

The control for turning color management OFF doesn't show up in the
Canon-specific part of the driver. If you can't see that control (a
popup menu selection, which simply "vanishes" and doesn't appear under
Leopard or Snow Leopard), then you can't turn off color management
the normal way.

This isn't a problem with Epson or HP drivers. Both families
of their printer drivers have "OFF" controls which appear normally
and work correctly under Leopard and Snow Leopard, as well as Tiger.
That's why you're not having a problem with your R280. With Epsons,
as long as you choose BOTH "Epson Color Controls" and the "Off"
setting for color management, you'll get a properly printed (non
color managed) target.

The other clue to your problem is your description of the target
prints for the Canon as "gorgeous". They're not supposed to be (they
look "gorgeous" because they're color managed, which is wrong). Target
prints should be darker than that if they're printed correctly.

So here's the fix for you (and everyone else on this list who has
Canons should pay CLOSE attention: this is the only way to build
profiles for them under Leopard or Snow Leopard, and it applies to
all custom profiling systems):

- Make sure you're running OSX 10.6.2 or whatever the latest SL is.
There have also been some Canon driver updates that will show up
in System Preferences:Software Update, so make sure you've got
nothing left to apply as an update. Another way to make sure you
have the latest Canon driver installed: go to Print & Fax, select
your current Canon driver, and click on Options and Supplies... to
see what version it is. (It should be 10.26.0.0 or later, and here's
the Apple list of latest drivers for all printers):

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3669

If you don't have the most recent driver, then click "-" to remove
the older Canon driver from the list. Then, with the printer
attached and powered on, click "+", and add back the driver for it
(this should download and install the latest version for you).

- Now: when you PRINT and want to turn off color management in
Spyder3Print, THIS is the way to do it:

- In the Color Matching pane of the driver, select ColorSync (not
Vendor Matching, or Canon Color Matching!)

- In the popup beneath that, you'll see "Automatic"; a list of all
the Canon standard profiles; and a command to choose from other
profiles. Use that last command to see a list of all profiles on
your system.

- Select "Generic RGB" from the list. (this is the key). Then say
OK and you'll see that "Generic RGB" shows beneath the ColorSync
radio button in the Color Matching pane. This is the secret to
disabling color management with the Canon drivers in Snow Leopard
(and it also works in Leopard, as well, although in that case, a
warning gets displayed underneath "Generic RGB", which can be ignored)

- Select the paper type, output quality, resolution, etc. as usual
and print the target sheet. (Just leave the Color Options pane alone)

- NOW you should get a properly dark (non-color-managed) target print.
Measure this and build a profile.

- Printing with "No Color Management" from Photoshop actually works
the same way. It invisibly pushes through "Generic RGB" or an equivalent
when you choose "No Color Management" in its Print dialog, This is why,
in the Color Matching pane of the driver, ColorSync subsequently comes
up auto-selected and also disabled; Photoshop has done the same thing
I just described "under the hood" and as a result, that choice in the
driver gets "locked".

- When printing through the profile in Photoshop: do it the usual way.
(Photoshop Manages Colors, choose the profile, Saturation intent, etc
etc etc). It should work fine.

- When doing a test print from inside Spyder3Print: since Spyder3Print
applies the profile internally to the image data before it's sent to
the driver, you should set the driver up exactly the same as when you
printed the target image (as I've described above), so this would be
ColorSync:Generic RGB in the Color Matching pane.


David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

David, thank you for detailed response.

I have some doubts, however, that this is the correct solution and this is why:

Profile that is selected under ColorSync is supposed to be profile for the printer/media. ColorSync will take your data and convert it to this profile before passing it to print driver. The only way you can get ColorSync to not molest your data is by tagging your data with the same profile that is selected in ColorSync. So if this is going to work, you are either tagging your data with "Generic RGB", or ColorSync assumes that untagged data is in "Generic RGB" (I'll assume you are sending untagged data). I do not believe this could in any way have anything to do with Canon drivers as such.

I tried printing the target another way: I opened it in PS, assigned it an RGB profile, saved it, opened it in Preview, printed it ColorSync and the same profile. Result was very similar to your suggested method. At first glance I thought it was the same, but on closer inspection I realized it was different and measurements confirmed it. I profiled both ways, and it was clear that the second method was the right one.

Then I tried something else, I used sRGB instead of "Generic RGB" in Spyder3Print. I thought I remembered I read somewhere that this was now default for ColorSync with untagged data. You guessed it - the result was the same as with Preview method.

As another test, I tried printing with Spyder3Print on Epson, the usual way with Epson controls > off, as well as ColorSync > sRGB. Both were identical, further suggesting that for ColorSync on Snow Leopard untagged data is assumed to be sRGB, not "Generic RGB". (all this hinges on the assumption that you are sending untagged data from Spyder3Print)

Please let me know if you are able to verify these results.

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Jan 9, 2010, at 5:08 AM, marko.mili wrote:
> 
> > I'm using the old 1005 spectro with v4.1.1 software under Snow  
> > Leopard and I am unable to produce a useful profile for Canon iP4500  
> > with Kirkland paper and HobbyColor ink.
> >
> > I print targets with Color Matching > Canon Color Matching and Color  
> > Options > Standard in the print dialog. Targets come out looking  
> > very similar to what's on screen, and the sample I print within  
> > Spyder3Print comes out gorgeous. Problem is, if I use this icc  
> > profile to print from anyplace else, it comes out all nasty, dark,  
> > greenish. In Preview I select Color Matching > ColorSync + created  
> > icc profile, Color Options > grayed out. In Lightroom and PS CS4 it  
> > works similarly. All produce nasty results.
> >
> > With my Epson R280 I have no such problems. I print target with  
> > Color Matching > EPSON Color Controls, Color Management > Off.  
> > Photos printed from Preview with Color Matching > ColorSync +  
> > created icc profile look the same as when the sample is printed from  
> > Spyder3Print.
> >
> > Any suggestions on how to print targets on Canon so I can produce  
> > useful ICC profiles?
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Yes: The problem is: you're not printing the targets correctly.
> There's a problem with all Canon drivers and Snow Leopard: (as
> well as most Canon drivers under Leopard, unless you're lucky
> enough to (a) be using the right driver, and (b) to have installed
> it a certain way):
> 
> The control for turning color management OFF doesn't show up in the
> Canon-specific part of the driver. If you can't see that control (a
> popup menu selection, which simply "vanishes" and doesn't appear under
> Leopard or Snow Leopard), then you can't turn off color management
> the normal way.
> 
> This isn't a problem with Epson or HP drivers. Both families
> of their printer drivers have "OFF" controls which appear normally
> and work correctly under Leopard and Snow Leopard, as well as Tiger.
> That's why you're not having a problem with your R280. With Epsons,
> as long as you choose BOTH "Epson Color Controls" and the "Off"
> setting for color management, you'll get a properly printed (non
> color managed) target.
> 
> The other clue to your problem is your description of the target
> prints for the Canon as "gorgeous". They're not supposed to be (they
> look "gorgeous" because they're color managed, which is wrong). Target
> prints should be darker than that if they're printed correctly.
> 
> So here's the fix for you (and everyone else on this list who has
> Canons should pay CLOSE attention: this is the only way to build
> profiles for them under Leopard or Snow Leopard, and it applies to
> all custom profiling systems):
> 
> - Make sure you're running OSX 10.6.2 or whatever the latest SL is.
> There have also been some Canon driver updates that will show up
> in System Preferences:Software Update, so make sure you've got
> nothing left to apply as an update. Another way to make sure you
> have the latest Canon driver installed: go to Print & Fax, select
> your current Canon driver, and click on Options and Supplies... to
> see what version it is. (It should be 10.26.0.0 or later, and here's
> the Apple list of latest drivers for all printers):
> 
> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3669
> 
> If you don't have the most recent driver, then click "-" to remove
> the older Canon driver from the list. Then, with the printer
> attached and powered on, click "+", and add back the driver for it
> (this should download and install the latest version for you).
> 
> - Now: when you PRINT and want to turn off color management in
> Spyder3Print, THIS is the way to do it:
> 
> - In the Color Matching pane of the driver, select ColorSync (not
> Vendor Matching, or Canon Color Matching!)
> 
> - In the popup beneath that, you'll see "Automatic"; a list of all
> the Canon standard profiles; and a command to choose from other
> profiles. Use that last command to see a list of all profiles on
> your system.
> 
> - Select "Generic RGB" from the list. (this is the key). Then say
> OK and you'll see that "Generic RGB" shows beneath the ColorSync
> radio button in the Color Matching pane. This is the secret to
> disabling color management with the Canon drivers in Snow Leopard
> (and it also works in Leopard, as well, although in that case, a
> warning gets displayed underneath "Generic RGB", which can be ignored)
> 
> - Select the paper type, output quality, resolution, etc. as usual
> and print the target sheet. (Just leave the Color Options pane alone)
> 
> - NOW you should get a properly dark (non-color-managed) target print.
> Measure this and build a profile.
> 
> - Printing with "No Color Management" from Photoshop actually works
> the same way. It invisibly pushes through "Generic RGB" or an equivalent
> when you choose "No Color Management" in its Print dialog, This is why,
> in the Color Matching pane of the driver, ColorSync subsequently comes
> up auto-selected and also disabled; Photoshop has done the same thing
> I just described "under the hood" and as a result, that choice in the
> driver gets "locked".
> 
> - When printing through the profile in Photoshop: do it the usual way.
> (Photoshop Manages Colors, choose the profile, Saturation intent, etc
> etc etc). It should work fine.
> 
> - When doing a test print from inside Spyder3Print: since Spyder3Print
> applies the profile internally to the image data before it's sent to
> the driver, you should set the driver up exactly the same as when you
> printed the target image (as I've described above), so this would be
> ColorSync:Generic RGB in the Color Matching pane.
> 
> 
> David Miller
> Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> Datacolor
>

What is the acceptable method of profiling canvas using the 
Spyder3Print system?

Will the colorimeter work properly on the uneven weave of the canvas 
and give the best profiling data?

Or should I just use a matte finish paper that has a close white 
match measured value using the colorimeter?


Thanks,


Bob P.

>>What is the acceptable method of profiling canvas using the
Spyder3Print system?

That depends on the coating; some are gloss, others are matte, some  
have a reduced gamut, or low d-max, and require some editing for most  
pleasing results.

 >>Will the colorimeter work properly on the uneven weave of the canvas
and give the best profiling data?

Typically it's fine. Picky users may choose to read twice, and average  
the measurement sets. Increasing the saturation a bit can help  
compensate for texture. If you are going to coat the canvas, doing  
that to the target prints before measuring makes sense.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Jan 10, 2010, at 9:10 AM, Bob Petruska <petruska@...>  
wrote:

> What is the acceptable method of profiling canvas using the
> Spyder3Print system?
>
> Will the colorimeter work properly on the uneven weave of the canvas
> and give the best profiling data?
>
> Or should I just use a matte finish paper that has a close white
> match measured value using the colorimeter?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Bob P.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On Jan 10, 2010, at 5:37 AM, marko.mili wrote:

>
>
> David, thank you for detailed response.
>
> I have some doubts, however, that this is the correct solution and  
> this is why:
>
> Profile that is selected under ColorSync is supposed to be profile  
> for the printer/media. ColorSync will take your data and convert it  
> to this profile before passing it to print driver. The only way you  
> can get ColorSync to not molest your data is by tagging your data  
> with the same profile that is selected in ColorSync. So if this is  
> going to work, you are either tagging your data with "Generic RGB",  
> or ColorSync assumes that untagged data is in "Generic RGB" (I'll  
> assume you are sending untagged data). I do not believe this could  
> in any way have anything to do with Canon drivers as such.
>
>

I wouldn't have written all of that if I didn't know for a fact that  
it works...:-)

I've tried this, and tested it, and: it works.

> I tried printing the target another way: I opened it in PS, assigned  
> it an RGB profile,
>

Why? I didn't say to do that.
> saved it, opened it in Preview, printed it ColorSync and the same  
> profile.
>
Why? I also didn't say a thing about opening anything in Preview and  
printing it.
> Result was very similar to your suggested method. At first glance I  
> thought it was the same, but on closer inspection I realized it was  
> different and measurements confirmed it. I profiled both ways, and  
> it was clear that the second method was the right one.
>
>
Taking the .tif (which is untagged); assigning a profile to it;  
resaving it; and opening
it in Preview; and then printing it; is going to end up changing the  
internal RGB
values in the image, most likely. That's why we've never mentioned  
this or told
anyone to do it.

We have two official methods for printing targets:

- Directly from Spyder3Print, in which case, there are no ahead-of- 
time color management
controls to set. Spyder3Print sends the non-adjusted RGB colors for  
the patches straight
into the printer driver, and the only place where color management  
would potentially
happen would be inside the printer driver. Disabling it comes down to  
turning it off
in the printer driver, whatever technique is needed to do that. How  
the driver "runs"
this way also has to match how it eventually "runs" when printing from  
inside other
applications, typically Photoshop. The test I'm going to describe  
below proves this.

- Directly from Photoshop, in which case, you need to set up Photoshop  
to warn on missing
profiles (the targets are deliberately untagged), and then tell  
Photoshop not to color
manage the target .tif when it opens. And then you print, with "No  
Color Management" in
the Photoshop print dialog.

See below for how I tested and confirmed that all of this works, and  
"lines up" correctly.
>

> Please let me know if you are able to verify these results.
>
>
I'm not going to spend time trying other things, because I've already  
tested and verified
everything that I already wrote up and told you (and everyone else  
who's reading this)...:-)

Here's a little more info:

- I printed the 225 patch target directly from Spyder3Print, under  
Snow Leopard,
using exactly the procedure I described above. ("ColorSync/Generic  
RGB" to turn
color management "off").

- I loaded the .tif version of the target directy into Photoshop,  
without assigning
a profile (instead, telling Photoshop not to color manage the  
document), because that's
the standard procedure for printing targets from Photoshop. Then I  
printed it with
"No Color Management" in Photoshop's Print dialog. As I've described,  
the Color Matching
pane in the SL print dialog comes up with both radio buttons dimmed  
and ColorSync selected.
(But I've never any specification of Generic RGB or any other profile  
in Photoshop).

- Both target prints not only look exactly the same, but they MEASURE  
exactly the same.
There's no difference. That proves that Photoshop's internal plumbing  
for disabling
color management is effectively pushing through "Generic RGB", even  
though you never
see this happening.

There's really nothing else to say about this...:-) What I've  
described for you
works; I've tested it; verified it as described above (and also built  
profiles this
way, and printed through the profiles, and they're fine); and all of  
the people who
have used this information in support tickets on the Datacolor site  
have been happy
and said that it solved their problem.


David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

>>What is the acceptable method of profiling canvas using the
Spyder3Print system?

That depends on the coating; some are gloss, others are matte, some have a reduced gamut, or low d-max, and require some editing for most pleasing results.

>>Will the colorimeter work properly on the uneven weave of the canvas
and give the best profiling data?

Typically it's fine. Picky users may choose to read twice, and average the measurement sets. Increasing the saturation a bit can help compensate for texture. If you are going to coat the canvas, doing that to the target prints before measuring makes sense.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

David,

I did some more testing today confirming my results. These give identical result:

- No color management from Mac PS CS3
- Spyder3Print Snow Leopard, ColorSync = sRGB
- Spyder3Print Win 7, ICM = off

These don't give the same result as above:
- Spyder3Print Snow Leopard, ColorSync = Generic RGB (close but not same)
- No color management from Mac PS CS4 (too dark)

The reason your instructions worked in the past is that untagged images were assumed to be "Generic RGB" in ColorSync http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/technotes/tn/tn2035.html#TNTAG14, so when selecting "Generic RGB" as destination color space in Print dialog, Colorsync would not do any color transforms, since origin=destination. In Snow Leopard untagged images are treated as sRGB (this change has been mentioned by Eric Chan of Adobe and tested by others, you can Google it), so it follows that you must select sRGB in Print dialog. Two are pretty similar and I can see how your customers would think they have the solution. This is the only conclusion I can draw from results in front of me and reading threads about this issue on Luminous Landscape and elsewhere.

When you find a minute, I would urge you to compare (in Snow Leopard) "Generic RGB", sRGB and a known good target like printed from CS3 or Windows.

Marko

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...> wrote:

> There's really nothing else to say about this...:-) What I've  
> described for you
> works; I've tested it; verified it as described above (and also built  
> profiles this
> way, and printed through the profiles, and they're fine); and all of  
> the people who
> have used this information in support tickets on the Datacolor site  
> have been happy
> and said that it solved their problem.
> 
> 
> David Miller
> Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> Datacolor
>