>And please, don't take my words too seriously. I'm
not saying too anyone to abandon Photoshop! This would be insane. My answer has
its only goal of helping someone who was in trouble >with his/her needs of
printing from everyday applications, like I was many years ago.
I understand and appreciate your intent; I just wanted
to make sure that novice list members who might also read the post are not
mislead and think that this should be applied to all situations or is a solution
to all color management problems and needs.
>The idea was
that when we select a given combination of media and quality, the driver makes
usage of one or another profile automatically. I'm assuming this, I'm not sure
about.
This assumption is not entirely correct. The selection of a media
type and quality has little to do with the color profile choice and use per se;
it affects the amount of ink that is laid down on the media (different types of
media can absorb different amounts of ink without encountering ink spread or not
being able to dry) and the stochastic dithering algorithm that will be used in
rendering the print (the level of halftone resolution that will be
simulated in the final print along with the smoothness and sharpness of
hard edges in the print). The definition and characterization of the
printer/paper/ink color space (which varies from one paper and ink formulation
combination to another paper and ink formulation combination for any given
printer) is a product of specific printer dependent ;color printer/paper/ink
profiles which using the Windows CM is accessed typically via the print
driver ICM option and the drop down list of installed printer/paper color
profiles.
>There's another
alternative, more realistic one, that should work for non-color managed
applications. We print to a PDF, then print finally to the paper using color
management builtin Acrobat Pro. Don't >know if Acrobat Reader does really
have this kind of resource.
First, I do not think that the Acrobat Reader supports
color management or is color management aware. Secondly, I am not all that
familiar with the color management capabilities of Acrobat Pro, so I cannot
really comment on it or this suggested alternative. However, if one is
printing an untagged image file to a PDF, Acrobat is going to be working with an
unknown color space which it may arbitrarily modify to fit some assumed working
color space like sRGB or AdobeRGB (1998); this may result in an altering of the
color values and appearance of the image in the image file. This in itself
may not be important for non-serious or casual images and image use and may be
acceptable for some users. Any color management that takes place via
the internal CM of Acrobat Pro takes place after the application of the
assumed working color space to the original image that has been imported into
Acrobat before it is sent to the printer for printing and at the printing
process whereby the file is printed to paper. Thus, you may get in print
from the Acrobat PDF image file what you see on your monitor; but you may not
get on the monitor and in your print the subject that you saw and captured
(namely, the subject of of the photograph that you captured or the object that
you used as the model of your digital painting or the original that you
scanned). Hence, this alternative, if it works, would be a second best
workaround for viewing and printing image files from non-color management
aware and supported applications; but it does not constitute "true" color
management per se.
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: [datacolor_group] Print from Any Software with Right
ICC
You're right. This procedure is not bullet-proof, as it relays on Windows CM
and printer driver mechanisms, both of them limited in comparison of a
Photoshop/Acrobat-like software. The builtin implementation of the SRGB
and/or conversion of the spaces might not be the same of other more controlled
environment. And if we use non-sRBG material, we would be in our own. That's all
true. But it's also true that it works quite well, and maybe it's
enough for that person who asked at the first moment for help on printing from
non-ICC aware software. I do 95% of my prints from Photoshop and Acdsee. But
there're circunstances when it's not practical or not possible to use those
software, so I'm alone with Word, Print CD, web browser, etc. Currently I work
with Windows 7, but it worked all like this since the Windows XP CM panel
release.
For the alternative way, maybe we should put it aside, since it has too
many levels of speculation. The idea was that when we select a given combination
of media and quality, the driver makes usage of one or another profile
automatically. I'm assuming this, I'm not sure about. So this combination would
work as a trigger to the profile we have developed for the paper and ink we are
using at the moment. Most of the time, I use only 5 papers, and each of them has
its own media/quality settings.
There's another alternative, more realistic one, that should work for
non-color managed applications. We print to a PDF, then print finally to the
paper using color management builtin Acrobat Pro. Don't know if Acrobat Reader
does really have this kind of resource.
And please, don't take my words too seriously. I'm not saying too anyone to
abandon Photoshop! This would be insane. My answer has its only goal of helping
someone who was in trouble with his/her needs of printing from everyday
applications, like I was many years ago.
2010/7/27 Laurie Solomon
<ls1000@live.com>
Antonio,
Despite English not being your first language, which I
did not realize, the ambiguity and confusion was not due to that. Your
English was very clear for the most part; the problem stemmed mostly from your
not identifying the operating system that your directions applied to and if
that operating system had the new color management panel in the Control panel
of Windows.
Yes, those programs which are not color aware do
assume sRGB working color space; but, despite the fact that the name is the
same, not all implementations of sRGB are the
same so a certain unpredictability is introduced. This may not be a
problem with some uses and programs where color renditions do not need to be
exact or portable. You are correct in saying that all you need to do is
set a given profile as default before printing to have that one be the one
used by Windows CM during that printing session. I was not questioning
that. I was merely pointing out that this approach lacks the flexibility
and ease of using different profiles during the course of a printing session
if and when one changes inks of paper types for different images to suit one's
purposes, uses, or vision.
As for what you call the alternative way, for printer
profiles, all one has to do is place the custom profile or one you created and
named with its own name in the Window/system32/spool/drivers/color
folder and Windows should recognize it and allow you to call it up from within
the color management panel of the Windows Control Panel. You do not need
to fool Windows by naming the new custom profile with the generic OEM profiles
name. The drop down list of paper types in the print driver dialog box
is not a list of profiles; you will not see a custom profile in list.
That selection controls mainly the amount of ink that is laid down by the
printer and not the color space definition. You are suppose to select an
OEM equivalent paper type that is close to the paper that you are actually
using, if you are using a third party non-Epson paper. If the paper you
are using - even if it is Epson OEM paper - is not an equivalent to one that
is listed or not listed on that list, then it is unsupported by the
printer (you are advised not to use it). Where one selects the profile
that the printer should use in contemporary Epson printer drivers is the drop
down list that comes up when you select the ICM option. ; If the printer
does not display a list of available profiles when you select the ICM option,
you have to go to the Windows CM control panel and select it there and
associate it with the printer in that panel's dialog box's profile drop down
list of profiles contained in the
Windows/system32/spool/driver/color folder.
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [datacolor_group] Print from Any Software with Right
ICC
Laurie,
Maybe my response was confusing because English is not my first language.
And yes, the procedure I tried to share on previous message works since the
introduction of the WinXP color management sub-system upgrade. I have great
prints using ICC non-aware software, from Web browser to Word and PrintCD. You
told that this kind of software doesn't inform the CM engine which color space
the material to be printed is in, but I presume the driver/Windows applies a
default sRGB to it, since the printing result is fine. All I need is to set,
before printing, a given profile as default one in Windows CM, and set
the printer driver for those settings used to print the targets.
The alternative way, as I said, I never tried it. It would be something
like cheating printer driver to work with our own profiles rather than those
original ones. Of course, one would have to know which profilename corresponds
to the driver media settings he/she wants to print with. Too much supposition
for now, as I do not have the right tool to edit the profile header strings
which identify the profile by the ICM.
Hope my explanation is a bit clearer now.
2010/7/26 Laurie Solomon
<ls1000@live.com>
Antonio,
;
Your response is a little ambiguous and confusing in
part due to the fact that you fail to neglect to say what Windows operating
system you are referring to. Windows XP had a color management
sub-system but it was embedded in the print manager for the most part and
did not have a separate color management panel in the Control Panel that the
user could access or which furnished anything like sophisticated
controls over color profiles and color management by the operating
system. Around about the time of Vista's introduction, Microsoft
introduced as a separate downloadable upgrade a version of the color
management panel and module that was to be included in Vista which could be
installed in Windows XP. Vista included a new version of Microsoft's
color management system and engine along with its own Control Panel
Item within the Vista Control Panel. This also what was included in
Win 7.
Your comments are probably more appropriate
for Windows Vista and Win 7 systems (and possibly those Windows XP systems
in which the color module and control panel was downloaded and
installed) than for the unmodified Windows XP systems. I am not
referring here to the possibility of associating generic standard or custom
device specific ICC color profiles with a particular printer, which can be
done via the print manager in Windows XP and earlier versions of Windows
since Windows 98, and making a specific printer profile the default profile
for a printer by listing it first in the list of associated profiles, but to
the ability to introduce new generic and custom profiles into the mix for a
variety of devices (printers and monitors) and to control
more or less the profiles associated with devices other than printers as
well as those associated with printers with greater ease and
flexibility. However, even with the new Microsoft Windows color
management panel and system, you cannot pick and choose different
color profiles for a device (printer or monitor) to be the default one for
different given purposes (regular working space viewing or soft
proofing) or different papers/ink combinations when
printing from within an application - be it a color managed program or a
non-color managed program; instead, the user must go back into the color
management panel in the Windows Control Panel and make the color profile
change manually each time a change is called for.
In addition, the new color management panel and
process in Windows does not permit the user to tag or embed color profiles
with the image file so that they will travel with that file should the user
want to view it or print it on a different system, monitor, and/or
printer. In short the operating systems' color management process to
does not furnish portability as many color managed image editing
applications do. Thus color management in this respect is
limited.
Nevertheless, as I believe CD Tobie noted in his
bridge analogy, for operating system based color management to work with
color managed and non-color managed programs, you need for the initial
original image file to have a color profile tagged to it which describes its
color space and color values as defined within that gamut so that the
profiled monitor and profiled printer have something to translate into their
particular color spaces with their specific color gamuts. Many initial
original image files do not come with such a tag and typically either are
assigned one in color managed image editing programs or are assumed to have
some arbitrary working space color profile in non-color managed image
viewing and editing programs. This makes for valid and reliable and
repeatable color management haphazard and uncertain when used with
applications that do not support color management.
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [datacolor_group] Print from Any Software with
Right ICC
To use a profile in any non-color managed application, you should rely on
Windows color management. The problem is that Windows CM does only work if
you set an specific option on drivers' settings. There's usually an option
on those Canon/Epson driver settings called ICM. To be your profile valid
for non-managed applications, you should print targets using ICM on, and no
profile (custom nor Canon/Epson-made) selected on Windows color
management panel for the printer. There, you should select "use my own
settings", "manual" and remove any profile that remains on the list. After
you print the targets and build the profile(s), you can finally fill that
Windows CM panel with the recently made one(s). Everytime you print using a
non-CM application, you should be sure the proper profile is selected as
default one. You can also select the rendering intent using the same Windows
CM panel.
Alternatively, maybe it would be possible to replace the default
profiles with your own generated profiles, with the same filename and header
of those original ones, so they would be selected and applied automatically.
I had never tried this, though.
2010/7/25 kandisyy
<kandisyy@yahoo.com>
Hello everybody!
Im new in this Group. My name is Chris and im from
Germany.
I start with my question.
I created a Profile for a Epson
P50.
I want to use this Profile in every Application, like Word, Main
Picture Program, etc.
But i only get the real Profile if I use the
Spyder3Print Software. (I think PS with a Profile choose could make it
too).
If I Print a pic from Windows Picture Wizard, it looks like
Garbage.
I tried nearly everything, but it wont work.
Any
Ideas?