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What's wrong?

What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by Keith

I am using Spyder3Print 4.1.1 to create printing profiles and printing through PhotoShop CS4. I'm printing with an Epson 4800 with ConeColor inks.
With the new ink set, I set about to create a new profile for the inkset. I followed the instructions and printed out the 9 sheet of patches, allowing them to dry overnight. I read all the patches and created the profile, giving it a name, all within S3P, then hit save.
Going into PS, I picked an image to print(a test image from OutBackPhoto
:http://www.outbackprint.com/printinginsights/pi049/essay.html
and went into the print dialog.
I called up the new profile I made in S3P and made sure that color management was off in the print driver, letting PS handle the CM.
I made the print and let it dry.
I noticed that in needed some modifications and went back into S3P and called up the profile I made, clicked on Advance editing and moved the sliders to make corrections. I then clicked save and gave it a new name, after which it told me where it was on my HD.
I then went back into PS, brought up the same image, and pulled up the "new" profile and printed it out. I did this for 2 additional prints, each time going back into S3P, making modifications to the original profile that I made, giving it a new name, etc.
After examining them under the same light source, I could not see any difference from one print to the next, even though each was printed though a new profile. All on the same paper, all with the same rendering intent, PS handling CM, etc.
With the changes I made, I thought I would see differences and on the last one, I even went so far as to exaggerate the settings. All the prints look identical. I made chages to contrast, brightness, saturation and color, it didn't matter all the prints were identical.
Whats wrong?

Re: [datacolor_group] What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by C D Tobie

The place to test your profiles is right In S3Print, using the SpyderProof test images; that will eliminate a number of factors and let us know that your profiles are working correctly. Your current external test may not be testing your profiles at all, if there is some issue in your workflow keeping the profiles from being applied properly.   

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging and Home Theater
Datacolor inc. 
cdtobie@...
www.datacolor.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Aug 13, 2010, at 8:50 PM, "Keith" <kjrslr@...> wrote:

> I am using Spyder3Print 4.1.1 to create printing profiles and printing through PhotoShop CS4. I'm printing with an Epson 4800 with ConeColor inks.
> With the new ink set, I set about to create a new profile for the inkset. I followed the instructions and printed out the 9 sheet of patches, allowing them to dry overnight. I read all the patches and created the profile, giving it a name, all within S3P, then hit save.
> Going into PS, I picked an image to print(a test image from OutBackPhoto
> :http://www.outbackprint.com/printinginsights/pi049/essay.html
> and went into the print dialog.
> I called up the new profile I made in S3P and made sure that color management was off in the print driver, letting PS handle the CM.
> I made the print and let it dry.
> I noticed that in needed some modifications and went back into S3P and called up the profile I made, clicked on Advance editing and moved the sliders to make corrections. I then clicked save and gave it a new name, after which it told me where it was on my HD.
> I then went back into PS, brought up the same image, and pulled up the "new" profile and printed it out. I did this for 2 additional prints, each time going back into S3P, making modifications to the original profile that I made, giving it a new name, etc.
> After examining them under the same light source, I could not see any difference from one print to the next, even though each was printed though a new profile. All on the same paper, all with the same rendering intent, PS handling CM, etc.
> With the changes I made, I thought I would see differences and on the last one, I even went so far as to exaggerate the settings. All the prints look identical. I made chages to contrast, brightness, saturation and color, it didn't matter all the prints were identical.
> Whats wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by Keith

In what respect would the profile not be applied to the image I'm using? It is a tiff image in ProPhoto color space(which is what I have both PS and LR set to). When I open it in PS and do a soft proof, it changes, indicating soft proof is applied.
As far as work flow, CM is off in the print driver and PS handles CM.
The profile that was created in S3P is selected, Document is checked(in PS print dialog box), rendering intent is RelCol(as was the intent in the S3P test image), and Black point checked.
One thing I did notice was when I choose to make a change to the original profile I created, it was in the drop down from which to choose from. Subsequent profiles that were created and saved(and indicated with info as to where it was found) did not show up in the S3P drop down.
As to testing it in S3p, I did print it out with the exaggerated profile(a heavy green bias) and the only real place it showed was in the B&W(it went from neutral to slight green). If in fact the last iteration(the green bias) was being used in PS, at the very least, the B&W grey ramps would also show the same green tinge as did the print made in S3P.
But, I won't be printing my images through S3P so that is why I used a real world image through PS.
I've outlined my work flow, which is not out of the ordinary, so can you please advise why only the original(I'm assuming)profile is the only one being used even though I've made iterations(and named as such)and used them in PS? Do the changes I make in S3P need to be a radical change. Do I need to make a 20 to 40 point jump in color or contrast, or brightness(for example) in order to be detected?

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> The place to test your profiles is right In S3Print, using the SpyderProof test images; that will eliminate a number of factors and let us know that your profiles are working correctly. Your current external test may not be testing your profiles at all, if there is some issue in your workflow keeping the profiles from being applied properly.   
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging and Home Theater
> Datacolor inc. 
> cdtobie@...
> www.datacolor.com
> 
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 8:50 PM, "Keith" <kjrslr@...> wrote:
> 
> > I am using Spyder3Print 4.1.1 to create printing profiles and printing through PhotoShop CS4. I'm printing with an Epson 4800 with ConeColor inks.
> > With the new ink set, I set about to create a new profile for the inkset. I followed the instructions and printed out the 9 sheet of patches, allowing them to dry overnight. I read all the patches and created the profile, giving it a name, all within S3P, then hit save.
> > Going into PS, I picked an image to print(a test image from OutBackPhoto
> > :http://www.outbackprint.com/printinginsights/pi049/essay.html
> > and went into the print dialog.
> > I called up the new profile I made in S3P and made sure that color management was off in the print driver, letting PS handle the CM.
> > I made the print and let it dry.
> > I noticed that in needed some modifications and went back into S3P and called up the profile I made, clicked on Advance editing and moved the sliders to make corrections. I then clicked save and gave it a new name, after which it told me where it was on my HD.
> > I then went back into PS, brought up the same image, and pulled up the "new" profile and printed it out. I did this for 2 additional prints, each time going back into S3P, making modifications to the original profile that I made, giving it a new name, etc.
> > After examining them under the same light source, I could not see any difference from one print to the next, even though each was printed though a new profile. All on the same paper, all with the same rendering intent, PS handling CM, etc.
> > With the changes I made, I thought I would see differences and on the last one, I even went so far as to exaggerate the settings. All the prints look identical. I made chages to contrast, brightness, saturation and color, it didn't matter all the prints were identical.
> > Whats wrong?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> >
>

Re: [datacolor_group] Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by Cdtobie

First we need to prove that Print is building profiles correctly. Once that is done, then color management for other applications, drivers, OSes, etc, can be discussed; but trying to do all that at once is complex and confusing. 

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Aug 14, 2010, at 12:12 PM, "Keith" <kjrslr@...> wrote:

> In what respect would the profile not be applied to the image I'm using?

Re: [datacolor_group] Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by Cdtobie

>>One thing I did notice was when I choose to make a change to the original profile I created, it was in the drop down from which to choose from. Subsequent profiles that were created and saved(and indicated with info as to where it was found) did not show up in the S3P drop down.

You are confusing your measurement set with a profile. You only have one measurement set, unless you measured the target more than once, but you can build multiple profiles, with assorted adjustments from that measurement set. 

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Aug 14, 2010, at 12:12 PM, "Keith" <kjrslr@comcast.net> wrote:

> One thing I did notice was when I choose to make a change to the original profile I created, it was in the drop down from which to choose from. Subsequent profiles that were created and saved(and indicated with info as to where it was found) did not show up in the S3P drop down.

Re: [datacolor_group] Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by Cdtobie

>>As to testing it in S3p, I did print it out with the exaggerated profile(a heavy green bias) and the only real place it showed was in the B&W(it went from neutral to slight green). If in fact the last iteration(the green bias) was being used in PS, at the very least, the B&W grey ramps would also show the same green tinge as did the print made in S3P.

Then that is encouraging that your color management is working, both in terms of Photoshop matching Print, and also in terms of a green edit showing as green. Subtle is the goal, so the result being minor is probably correct. 

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Aug 14, 2010, at 12:12 PM, "Keith" <kjrslr@comcast.net> wrote:

> As to testing it in S3p, I did print it out with the exaggerated profile(a heavy green bias) and the only real place it showed was in the B&W(it went from neutral to slight green). If in fact the last iteration(the green bias) was being used in PS, at the very least, the B&W grey ramps would also show the same green tinge as did the print made in S3P.

Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by Keith

As a follow up, I noticed in another forum someone else was having a problem with creating profiles S3P, using a Epson 4000 and CS4. The person stated that he wrote to the DataColor tech specialist and was informed(via email) that there was an issue with S3P, the 4000 and CS4. I have requested a copy of that email to see what it states. While I have a 4800 and also go through CS4, what I see is that since the Epson print driver is turned off, the printer is not an issue and in fact there may be an issue with S3P and CS4, since this is where I see the problem occuring.
I also did another iteration(today) of the profile I'm trying to alter, and printed it through the S3P software and as in the past it showed the changes I had made. Since this was printed in this manner and not through CS4, and the printer driver was turned off, the S3P drivers controlled the printing. in other words, the printer and PS drivers were out of the loop.
Also, in making all these prints of the S3P test image, with all the different iterations I'm creating, I've noticed the info at the bottom left of the print has some data starting with SPTemp(some numbers-different with each print), the rendering intent stays the same but always the same date and time. Shouldn't this change with each new print made? 

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <kjrslr@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> In what respect would the profile not be applied to the image I'm using? It is a tiff image in ProPhoto color space(which is what I have both PS and LR set to). When I open it in PS and do a soft proof, it changes, indicating soft proof is applied.
> As far as work flow, CM is off in the print driver and PS handles CM.
> The profile that was created in S3P is selected, Document is checked(in PS print dialog box), rendering intent is RelCol(as was the intent in the S3P test image), and Black point checked.
> One thing I did notice was when I choose to make a change to the original profile I created, it was in the drop down from which to choose from. Subsequent profiles that were created and saved(and indicated with info as to where it was found) did not show up in the S3P drop down.
> As to testing it in S3p, I did print it out with the exaggerated profile(a heavy green bias) and the only real place it showed was in the B&W(it went from neutral to slight green). If in fact the last iteration(the green bias) was being used in PS, at the very least, the B&W grey ramps would also show the same green tinge as did the print made in S3P.
> But, I won't be printing my images through S3P so that is why I used a real world image through PS.
> I've outlined my work flow, which is not out of the ordinary, so can you please advise why only the original(I'm assuming)profile is the only one being used even though I've made iterations(and named as such)and used them in PS? Do the changes I make in S3P need to be a radical change. Do I need to make a 20 to 40 point jump in color or contrast, or brightness(for example) in order to be detected?
> 
> --- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@> wrote:
> >
> > The place to test your profiles is right In S3Print, using the SpyderProof test images; that will eliminate a number of factors and let us know that your profiles are working correctly. Your current external test may not be testing your profiles at all, if there is some issue in your workflow keeping the profiles from being applied properly.   
> > 
> > C. David Tobie
> > Global Product Technology Manager
> > Digital Imaging and Home Theater
> > Datacolor inc. 
> > cdtobie@
> > www.datacolor.com
> > 
> > On Aug 13, 2010, at 8:50 PM, "Keith" <kjrslr@> wrote:
> > 
> > > I am using Spyder3Print 4.1.1 to create printing profiles and printing through PhotoShop CS4. I'm printing with an Epson 4800 with ConeColor inks.
> > > With the new ink set, I set about to create a new profile for the inkset. I followed the instructions and printed out the 9 sheet of patches, allowing them to dry overnight. I read all the patches and created the profile, giving it a name, all within S3P, then hit save.
> > > Going into PS, I picked an image to print(a test image from OutBackPhoto
> > > :http://www.outbackprint.com/printinginsights/pi049/essay.html
> > > and went into the print dialog.
> > > I called up the new profile I made in S3P and made sure that color management was off in the print driver, letting PS handle the CM.
> > > I made the print and let it dry.
> > > I noticed that in needed some modifications and went back into S3P and called up the profile I made, clicked on Advance editing and moved the sliders to make corrections. I then clicked save and gave it a new name, after which it told me where it was on my HD.
> > > I then went back into PS, brought up the same image, and pulled up the "new" profile and printed it out. I did this for 2 additional prints, each time going back into S3P, making modifications to the original profile that I made, giving it a new name, etc.
> > > After examining them under the same light source, I could not see any difference from one print to the next, even though each was printed though a new profile. All on the same paper, all with the same rendering intent, PS handling CM, etc.
> > > With the changes I made, I thought I would see differences and on the last one, I even went so far as to exaggerate the settings. All the prints look identical. I made chages to contrast, brightness, saturation and color, it didn't matter all the prints were identical.
> > > Whats wrong?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
>

Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by Keith

But the print was made through S3P not PS. I did not even have PS open to print the image.

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> >>> Then that is encouraging that your color management is working, both in terms of Photoshop matching Print, and also in terms of a green edit showing as green. Subtle is the goal, so the result being minor is probably correct. 
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
> 
> On Aug 14, 2010, at 12:12 PM, "Keith" <kjrslr@...> wrote:

Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by Keith

I understand. I did print out only one measurement set(9 pages) and made the different profiles from that one set. I only measured the patches once.

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> >>One thing I did notice was when I choose to make a change to the original profile I created, it was in the drop down from which to choose from. Subsequent profiles that were created and saved(and indicated with info as to where it was found) did not show up in the S3P drop down.
> 
> You are confusing your measurement set with a profile. You only have one measurement set, unless you measured the target more than once, but you can build multiple profiles, with assorted adjustments from that measurement set. 
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
> 
> On Aug 14, 2010, at 12:12 PM, "Keith" <kjrslr@...> wrote:
> 
> > One thing I did notice was when I choose to make a change to the original profile I created, it was in the drop down from which to choose from. Subsequent profiles that were created and saved(and indicated with info as to where it was found) did not show up in the S3P drop down.
>

Re: [datacolor_group] Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by David Miller

Keith,

The right way to get help with a question like this would have been to create a support ticket on the Datacolor
web site and ask the question that way yourself. All of these questions are easily addressed by sending us
a copy of the measurement file you're using to create the profile. By looking at the measurement file,
we can tell:

- Whether or not you've printed the target correctly.

- Whether or not you've measured the target print correctly (whether it was actually printed correctly, or not)

If you have a properly printed target and you've measured it correctly, then everything will work as expected.
The measurement files stay the same and you can build multiple profiles from them (with "flavoring" that you
introduce in the Advanced Editing screen controls); the only changes you might ever make to an existing measurement
file would be to remeasure one or more of the patches. (You would do this by going to the existing measurement
file screen; selecting it in the popup; clicking View/Measure to bring back the Target window for it; and then
by clicking on and remeasuring one or more patches). All measurement files are auto-saved after each measurement.

If you want to build a profile variation, try something signficant to prove to yourself that it works. If you use
small numbers of the sliders (which are "weak"), then your differences in the output may be very subtle.

For example, do this test and this will prove that things work right:

- Run the software

- Step through the UI and get to the "existing measurement files" screen

- Select your measurement file

- Click Next

- Click Advanced Editing

- Drag the Brightness slider all the way to the left and say "Done"

- Click Next, and save the profile with a specific name (such as "my profile dark")

- Click Back; then Advanced Editing; now drag the brightness slider all the way to the right;
click Done; click Next; and save another profile as "my profile light"

- You've now built two profiles from the same measurement set with hugely different flavoring. One is going
to print much darker than normal; the other, much lighter.

- Quit Spyder3Print and run Photoshop. In Photoshop: both of those profiles will now appear.

- Open one of your images

- Print it through the "dark" profile (use the Print dialog scaling to reduce the size so you can overprint
both of these onto the same page).

- Print it through the "light" profile (shift to a different area on the page and put the same piece of
paper back through).

- Your two prints, through the two different profiles are going to be very different from each other.

Photoshop printing configuration: (this is important)

- Your RGB working space should be set to Adobe RGB or sRGB; never to your display profile or a printer profile

- Print dialog: color management controls: should be set for Document (not Proof); Photoshop Manages Colors;
select the printer profile by name; use the Saturation intent; turn black point compensation off.

- Printer driver: 


> As a follow up, I noticed in another forum someone else was having a problem with creating profiles S3P, using a Epson 4000 and CS4. The person stated that he wrote to the DataColor tech specialist and was informed(via email) that there was an issue with S3P, the 4000 and CS4. I have requested a copy of that email to see what it states.

2nd hand information through other forums isn't necessarily the best way to get info; what you read is only as accurate
as what people are posting and what you get from this can be prone to inaccuracy or misunderstanding.

That isn't a good way to get answers; you're much better served by going directly to the Datacolor web site and asking
the question there, yourself...:-)

> While I have a 4800 and also go through CS4, what I see is that since the Epson print driver is turned off, the printer is not an issue and in fact there may be an issue with S3P and CS4, since this is where I see the problem occuring.

No, that's not an issue. S3P builds the profiles completely independent of CS4. They're standard printer profiles, and they
work in all color managed applications, Adobe products included, of course.

As long as you print the target correctly and measure it correctly: you end up with a proper printer profile that will work
everywhere. There are no other interactions to consider.


> I also did another iteration(today) of the profile I'm trying to alter, and printed it through the S3P software and as in the past it showed the changes I had made.

Ok, that's good. But to point out something that you could be missing: you have to click the Next button to go to the
next screen (after the SpyderProof-View screen); and then name and save your profile (which, remember, is not a measurement file;
and the profile won't show up in S3P's popups, but it will show up in Photoshop's). You should make small changes in the profile
names so you can tell them apart. If you keep building into and overwriting the same profile, then (a) yes, Photoshop will use
that profile, and (b) that profile will have your adjustments flavored into it, and (c) that profile will produce the same print
that you get from testing inside S3P, as long as you have Photoshop's Print dialog set up correctly (as I've described above).

Whether you're printing from S3P or Photoshop: you need to have color management in the printer driver turned off the -same way-
it was when you printed the target. With Epson printers, this is very straightforward. The only place you can possibly go wrong
is with OSX Snow Leopard (10.6 and later), because there are 2 places in the OSX print dialog that you need to set things "right"
for color management to be turned off.

> Since this was printed in this manner and not through CS4, and the printer driver was turned off, the S3P drivers controlled the printing.

That's only partially true. You are controlling the printing by your driver setup. S3P simply sends the image out to the driver
with only the printer profile applied to it (as is also the case when Photoshop prints, if you set it up exactly as I've described
above).

> in other words, the printer and PS drivers were out of the loop.

PS drivers out of the loop: yes. Printer out of the loop: no (because you still have your driver setup at the OS level)

> Also, in making all these prints of the S3P test image, with all the different iterations I'm creating, I've noticed the info at the bottom left of the print has some data starting with SPTemp(some numbers-different with each print), the rendering intent stays the same but always the same date and time. Shouldn't this change with each new print made? 
> 

The date/time probably isn't getting refreshed if you keep looping around between those screens; it would get updated if you went
back to the first UI screen or quit and relaunched the app. Small bug which nobody seems to have noticed for years now...:-)
but it's cosmetic only and has nothing to do with the profile or how color management is being applied to your test print. (In other
words: ignore this)...:-)



David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-14 by Keith

I will create a support ticket.
I did get the email I told you about(from Datacolor to the person on the other forum). Like myself, he has made profiles before.
Like this other person I have been printing for a number of years, printing and reading targets and creating profiles through various versions of both PS and LR, first using Manaco then PrintFix Pro. In other words, I've done this before.
As far as creating the profile from the measurement set, I did step through as you described. How else would I get screen asking me to name the new profile(as I stated I did) and then tell me where it was.
I also know how to set up PS and I always choose document and my working space, printer driver off, PS handles color, etc. All of this was stated in earlier posts. And yes, the profiles I created from the measurement set do show up in PS and that is where I picked the printer profile I used to print when I printed through CS4.
But I will try what you suggest about creating a new exaggerated profile and print it through PS(even though I stated that I already did this).


--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...> wrote:

> 
> If you have a properly printed target and you've measured it correctly, then everything will work as expected.

I'm fairly confidant I have done everything correctly as far as printing the 9 pages and reading them.
Was done through S3P-where else could it be done from ;^). Epson CM was off. PS not even running.


> Photoshop printing configuration: (this is important) 
> - Your RGB working space should be set to Adobe RGB or sRGB; never to your display profile or a printer profile.


 As previously stated, in PS I know enough to not pick a monitor or printing file. As stated I use the COLORSPACE of ProPhoto RGB.
Even with this colorspace and printing using the tiff image I used in PS, with the profile created in S3P(and chosen from the drop down in PS) I should have seen some difference. As stated, there was no difference.

 
> - Print dialog: color management controls: should be set for Document (not Proof); Photoshop Manages Colors;
> select the printer profile by name; use the Saturation intent; turn black point compensation off.

The only thing I did different from what you mention is that I had BPC on.

 
> - Printer driver: 

Epson CM is off, since PS manages color.

 
> > As a follow up, I noticed in another forum someone else was having a problem with creating profiles S3P, using a Epson 4000 and CS4. The person stated that he wrote to the DataColor tech specialist and was informed(via email) that there was an issue with S3P, the 4000 and CS4. I have requested a copy of that email to see what it states.

I now have a copy of that email. Even though it is not from you, I think you know what it says.

 
...you're much better served by going directly to the Datacolor web site and asking the question there, yourself...:-)
  

Will do shortly after I do the aforemention test that you recommend.

> 
> 
> > I also did another iteration(today) of the profile I'm trying to alter, and printed it through the S3P software and as in the past it showed the changes I had made.
> 
> Ok, that's good. But to point out something that you could be missing: you have to click the Next button to go to the
> next screen (after the SpyderProof-View screen); and then name and save your profile (which, remember, is not a measurement file;

I did do this and stated the same.


> 
> Whether you're printing from S3P or Photoshop: you need to have color management in the printer driver turned off the -same way-
> it was when you printed the target.

Again, as previously stated, I have the Epson CM turned off. I believe it says "No Color Management".
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> David Miller
> Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> Datacolor
>

Re: What's wrong? A follow up

2010-08-15 by Keith

Last night I made the suggested profiles(a dark & light) as you suggested and printed them out via PS. They came out as you suggested so I'll say thank you for that. The only thing I did different from what I had done previously was to turn BPC off(as suggested). Otherwise the settings and procedures you outlined was what I do normally. What did really surprise me was the sledge hammer effect(pushing the brightness slider-for this test) for such a small visible effect. With the changes I attempted on previous profiles, it's no wonder that I didn't notice any change to the print. The test prints I made showed a darkening/lightening effect of what appears to be the equivalent to a 1-1 1/2 stop, while I had expected it to be much more radical than the outcome. Since I now know this, I will again make a meaningful profile, but will be more aggressive with the controls. If this holds true, then I should expect to see the changes in the test print.   

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <kjrslr@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I will create a support ticket.
> I did get the email I told you about(from Datacolor to the person on the other forum). Like myself, he has made profiles before.
> Like this other person I have been printing for a number of years, printing and reading targets and creating profiles through various versions of both PS and LR, first using Manaco then PrintFix Pro. In other words, I've done this before.
> As far as creating the profile from the measurement set, I did step through as you described. How else would I get screen asking me to name the new profile(as I stated I did) and then tell me where it was.
> I also know how to set up PS and I always choose document and my working space, printer driver off, PS handles color, etc. All of this was stated in earlier posts. And yes, the profiles I created from the measurement set do show up in PS and that is where I picked the printer profile I used to print when I printed through CS4.
> But I will try what you suggest about creating a new exaggerated profile and print it through PS(even though I stated that I already did this).
> 
> 
> --- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > If you have a properly printed target and you've measured it correctly, then everything will work as expected.
> 
> I'm fairly confidant I have done everything correctly as far as printing the 9 pages and reading them.
> Was done through S3P-where else could it be done from ;^). Epson CM was off. PS not even running.
> 
> 
> > Photoshop printing configuration: (this is important) 
> > - Your RGB working space should be set to Adobe RGB or sRGB; never to your display profile or a printer profile.
> 
> 
>  As previously stated, in PS I know enough to not pick a monitor or printing file. As stated I use the COLORSPACE of ProPhoto RGB.
> Even with this colorspace and printing using the tiff image I used in PS, with the profile created in S3P(and chosen from the drop down in PS) I should have seen some difference. As stated, there was no difference.
> 
>  
> > - Print dialog: color management controls: should be set for Document (not Proof); Photoshop Manages Colors;
> > select the printer profile by name; use the Saturation intent; turn black point compensation off.
> 
> The only thing I did different from what you mention is that I had BPC on.
> 
>  
> > - Printer driver: 
> 
> Epson CM is off, since PS manages color.
> 
>  
> > > As a follow up, I noticed in another forum someone else was having a problem with creating profiles S3P, using a Epson 4000 and CS4. The person stated that he wrote to the DataColor tech specialist and was informed(via email) that there was an issue with S3P, the 4000 and CS4. I have requested a copy of that email to see what it states.
> 
> I now have a copy of that email. Even though it is not from you, I think you know what it says.
> 
>  
> ...you're much better served by going directly to the Datacolor web site and asking the question there, yourself...:-)
>   
> 
> Will do shortly after I do the aforemention test that you recommend.
> 
> > 
> > 
> > > I also did another iteration(today) of the profile I'm trying to alter, and printed it through the S3P software and as in the past it showed the changes I had made.
> > 
> > Ok, that's good. But to point out something that you could be missing: you have to click the Next button to go to the
> > next screen (after the SpyderProof-View screen); and then name and save your profile (which, remember, is not a measurement file;
> 
> I did do this and stated the same.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Whether you're printing from S3P or Photoshop: you need to have color management in the printer driver turned off the -same way-
> > it was when you printed the target.
> 
> Again, as previously stated, I have the Epson CM turned off. I believe it says "No Color Management".
> 
>  
> 
> 
> > 
> > David Miller
> > Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> > Datacolor
> >
>

Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-16 by capesamblue

David, 
Why would you choose to have Black Point Compensation off? Surely it would be a good thing to have on in normal printing (or were you only suggesting "off" for the sake of Keith's particular test?)
Martin

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> - Print dialog: color management controls: should be set for Document (not Proof); Photoshop Manages Colors;
> select the printer profile by name; use the Saturation intent; turn black point compensation off.
> 
> 
> 
> David Miller
> Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> Datacolor
>

Re: [datacolor_group] Re: What's wrong?

2010-08-16 by C D Tobie

On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:47 AM, capesamblue wrote:

> Why would you choose to have Black Point Compensation off? Surely it would be a good thing to have on in normal printing

BPC cannot make your blacks blacker; it can only make them less black. Is that something you would want (other than in device-proofs, where you are emulating a weaker device on one with deeper blacks)? The problem with BPC is that it only works in Adobe apps, and if a profile is made to work with BPC, it won't print correctly from non-Adobe applications, except perhaps in Perceptual mode, where BPC compensation may not be used, for this very reason. So you can use our profiles from any app, with any intent. 

On the other hand, if you like the results you get using our profiles with BPC checked, thats fine too... but compare it to the version without BPC, to be sure you aren't missing anything with your particular paper, printer, and ink.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...

Re: What's wrong?

2011-10-15 by Keith

The reply below is to an exchage I had last year with a new ink set.
In the interm, I have upgraded the computer and PS software and made prints with the same paper/ink/profile combo before the computer change. All was fine. Printing was great with the profile I created. This past week I'm trying a new paper(Canson Platine FR). Printed out a new set of patches(through SP3 SR), read the patches and gave it a distinct name). They look very similar to the ones I made before, so I'm sure they are printed correctly. Then printed the SP3 quad image and looked great but just a tad dark. Made a change through the Advanced Editing(added +15 Brightness) and made another print. That looked perfect. Clicked next and gave the profile a name. It was saved and indicted where it was in the system, so I'm sure that I stepped through the UI correctly.
Quit the SP3 SR. Opened up an image(I use to check profiles) in CS5. Found the new profile in View>Proof...etc. That verified it was in the correct spot on my system.
Control P to bring up the print dialog. under printer settings, I pick media,etc and NO COLOR MANAGEMENT.
On the PS side, document is choosen(RGB)
Color Handling is PS handles color.
Printer profile is the one I made and labled with the date I made it(so I know which one to use)
Rendering is RelCo. BPC is off.
The resulting print has good color but it is very dark.
And yes the monitor has been calibrated.
As I said, prints made with another profile I made with a different paper print as they should.
Is the print dark because it is over saturated? I wouldn't think that the rendering intent(RelCo instead if Saturation) would cause it to print this dark. When I look at the image in PS and apply the profile to soft proof, the image lightens(as it normally does). Or as Jeff Schewe calls it; "the button that makes my image look like crap"
What am I doing wrong this time.
  


--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Keith,
> 
> The right way to get help with a question like this would have been to create a support ticket on the Datacolor
> web site and ask the question that way yourself. All of these questions are easily addressed by sending us
> a copy of the measurement file you're using to create the profile. By looking at the measurement file,
> we can tell:
> 
> - Whether or not you've printed the target correctly.
> 
> - Whether or not you've measured the target print correctly (whether it was actually printed correctly, or not)
> 
> If you have a properly printed target and you've measured it correctly, then everything will work as expected.
> The measurement files stay the same and you can build multiple profiles from them (with "flavoring" that you
> introduce in the Advanced Editing screen controls); the only changes you might ever make to an existing measurement
> file would be to remeasure one or more of the patches. (You would do this by going to the existing measurement
> file screen; selecting it in the popup; clicking View/Measure to bring back the Target window for it; and then
> by clicking on and remeasuring one or more patches). All measurement files are auto-saved after each measurement.
> 
> If you want to build a profile variation, try something signficant to prove to yourself that it works. If you use
> small numbers of the sliders (which are "weak"), then your differences in the output may be very subtle.
> 
> For example, do this test and this will prove that things work right:
> 
> - Run the software
> 
> - Step through the UI and get to the "existing measurement files" screen
> 
> - Select your measurement file
> 
> - Click Next
> 
> - Click Advanced Editing
> 
> - Drag the Brightness slider all the way to the left and say "Done"
> 
> - Click Next, and save the profile with a specific name (such as "my profile dark")
> 
> - Click Back; then Advanced Editing; now drag the brightness slider all the way to the right;
> click Done; click Next; and save another profile as "my profile light"
> 
> - You've now built two profiles from the same measurement set with hugely different flavoring. One is going
> to print much darker than normal; the other, much lighter.
> 
> - Quit Spyder3Print and run Photoshop. In Photoshop: both of those profiles will now appear.
> 
> - Open one of your images
> 
> - Print it through the "dark" profile (use the Print dialog scaling to reduce the size so you can overprint
> both of these onto the same page).
> 
> - Print it through the "light" profile (shift to a different area on the page and put the same piece of
> paper back through).
> 
> - Your two prints, through the two different profiles are going to be very different from each other.
> 
> Photoshop printing configuration: (this is important)
> 
> - Your RGB working space should be set to Adobe RGB or sRGB; never to your display profile or a printer profile
> 
> - Print dialog: color management controls: should be set for Document (not Proof); Photoshop Manages Colors;
> select the printer profile by name; use the Saturation intent; turn black point compensation off.
> 
> - Printer driver: 
> 
> 
> > As a follow up, I noticed in another forum someone else was having a problem with creating profiles S3P, using a Epson 4000 and CS4. The person stated that he wrote to the DataColor tech specialist and was informed(via email) that there was an issue with S3P, the 4000 and CS4. I have requested a copy of that email to see what it states.
> 
> 2nd hand information through other forums isn't necessarily the best way to get info; what you read is only as accurate
> as what people are posting and what you get from this can be prone to inaccuracy or misunderstanding.
> 
> That isn't a good way to get answers; you're much better served by going directly to the Datacolor web site and asking
> the question there, yourself...:-)
> 
> > While I have a 4800 and also go through CS4, what I see is that since the Epson print driver is turned off, the printer is not an issue and in fact there may be an issue with S3P and CS4, since this is where I see the problem occuring.
> 
> No, that's not an issue. S3P builds the profiles completely independent of CS4. They're standard printer profiles, and they
> work in all color managed applications, Adobe products included, of course.
> 
> As long as you print the target correctly and measure it correctly: you end up with a proper printer profile that will work
> everywhere. There are no other interactions to consider.
> 
> 
> > I also did another iteration(today) of the profile I'm trying to alter, and printed it through the S3P software and as in the past it showed the changes I had made.
> 
> Ok, that's good. But to point out something that you could be missing: you have to click the Next button to go to the
> next screen (after the SpyderProof-View screen); and then name and save your profile (which, remember, is not a measurement file;
> and the profile won't show up in S3P's popups, but it will show up in Photoshop's). You should make small changes in the profile
> names so you can tell them apart. If you keep building into and overwriting the same profile, then (a) yes, Photoshop will use
> that profile, and (b) that profile will have your adjustments flavored into it, and (c) that profile will produce the same print
> that you get from testing inside S3P, as long as you have Photoshop's Print dialog set up correctly (as I've described above).
> 
> Whether you're printing from S3P or Photoshop: you need to have color management in the printer driver turned off the -same way-
> it was when you printed the target. With Epson printers, this is very straightforward. The only place you can possibly go wrong
> is with OSX Snow Leopard (10.6 and later), because there are 2 places in the OSX print dialog that you need to set things "right"
> for color management to be turned off.
> 
> > Since this was printed in this manner and not through CS4, and the printer driver was turned off, the S3P drivers controlled the printing.
> 
> That's only partially true. You are controlling the printing by your driver setup. S3P simply sends the image out to the driver
> with only the printer profile applied to it (as is also the case when Photoshop prints, if you set it up exactly as I've described
> above).
> 
> > in other words, the printer and PS drivers were out of the loop.
> 
> PS drivers out of the loop: yes. Printer out of the loop: no (because you still have your driver setup at the OS level)
> 
> > Also, in making all these prints of the S3P test image, with all the different iterations I'm creating, I've noticed the info at the bottom left of the print has some data starting with SPTemp(some numbers-different with each print), the rendering intent stays the same but always the same date and time. Shouldn't this change with each new print made? 
> > 
> 
> The date/time probably isn't getting refreshed if you keep looping around between those screens; it would get updated if you went
> back to the first UI screen or quit and relaunched the app. Small bug which nobody seems to have noticed for years now...:-)
> but it's cosmetic only and has nothing to do with the profile or how color management is being applied to your test print. (In other
> words: ignore this)...:-)
> 
> 
> 
> David Miller
> Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> Datacolor
>

Re: What's wrong?

2011-10-16 by Keith

I would also add that in addition to upgrading my computer & PS, I also am running Win7-64 and PS 64. The profiles I have made end up in C:\windows\system32\.... . Is this this correct place for the new profiles? As I stated before, I have printed out of CS5.x(64) with profiles made when I had Vista32.

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <kjrslr@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> The reply below is to an exchage I had last year with a new ink set.
> In the interm, I have upgraded the computer and PS software and made prints with the same paper/ink/profile combo before the computer change. All was fine. Printing was great with the profile I created. This past week I'm trying a new paper(Canson Platine FR). Printed out a new set of patches(through SP3 SR), read the patches and gave it a distinct name). They look very similar to the ones I made before, so I'm sure they are printed correctly. Then printed the SP3 quad image and looked great but just a tad dark. Made a change through the Advanced Editing(added +15 Brightness) and made another print. That looked perfect. Clicked next and gave the profile a name. It was saved and indicted where it was in the system, so I'm sure that I stepped through the UI correctly.
> Quit the SP3 SR. Opened up an image(I use to check profiles) in CS5. Found the new profile in View>Proof...etc. That verified it was in the correct spot on my system.
> Control P to bring up the print dialog. under printer settings, I pick media,etc and NO COLOR MANAGEMENT.
> On the PS side, document is choosen(RGB)
> Color Handling is PS handles color.
> Printer profile is the one I made and labled with the date I made it(so I know which one to use)
> Rendering is RelCo. BPC is off.
> The resulting print has good color but it is very dark.
> And yes the monitor has been calibrated.
> As I said, prints made with another profile I made with a different paper print as they should.
> Is the print dark because it is over saturated? I wouldn't think that the rendering intent(RelCo instead if Saturation) would cause it to print this dark. When I look at the image in PS and apply the profile to soft proof, the image lightens(as it normally does). Or as Jeff Schewe calls it; "the button that makes my image look like crap"
> What am I doing wrong this time.
>   
> 
> 
> --- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@> wrote:
> >
> > Keith,
> > 
> > The right way to get help with a question like this would have been to create a support ticket on the Datacolor
> > web site and ask the question that way yourself. All of these questions are easily addressed by sending us
> > a copy of the measurement file you're using to create the profile. By looking at the measurement file,
> > we can tell:
> > 
> > - Whether or not you've printed the target correctly.
> > 
> > - Whether or not you've measured the target print correctly (whether it was actually printed correctly, or not)
> > 
> > If you have a properly printed target and you've measured it correctly, then everything will work as expected.
> > The measurement files stay the same and you can build multiple profiles from them (with "flavoring" that you
> > introduce in the Advanced Editing screen controls); the only changes you might ever make to an existing measurement
> > file would be to remeasure one or more of the patches. (You would do this by going to the existing measurement
> > file screen; selecting it in the popup; clicking View/Measure to bring back the Target window for it; and then
> > by clicking on and remeasuring one or more patches). All measurement files are auto-saved after each measurement.
> > 
> > If you want to build a profile variation, try something signficant to prove to yourself that it works. If you use
> > small numbers of the sliders (which are "weak"), then your differences in the output may be very subtle.
> > 
> > For example, do this test and this will prove that things work right:
> > 
> > - Run the software
> > 
> > - Step through the UI and get to the "existing measurement files" screen
> > 
> > - Select your measurement file
> > 
> > - Click Next
> > 
> > - Click Advanced Editing
> > 
> > - Drag the Brightness slider all the way to the left and say "Done"
> > 
> > - Click Next, and save the profile with a specific name (such as "my profile dark")
> > 
> > - Click Back; then Advanced Editing; now drag the brightness slider all the way to the right;
> > click Done; click Next; and save another profile as "my profile light"
> > 
> > - You've now built two profiles from the same measurement set with hugely different flavoring. One is going
> > to print much darker than normal; the other, much lighter.
> > 
> > - Quit Spyder3Print and run Photoshop. In Photoshop: both of those profiles will now appear.
> > 
> > - Open one of your images
> > 
> > - Print it through the "dark" profile (use the Print dialog scaling to reduce the size so you can overprint
> > both of these onto the same page).
> > 
> > - Print it through the "light" profile (shift to a different area on the page and put the same piece of
> > paper back through).
> > 
> > - Your two prints, through the two different profiles are going to be very different from each other.
> > 
> > Photoshop printing configuration: (this is important)
> > 
> > - Your RGB working space should be set to Adobe RGB or sRGB; never to your display profile or a printer profile
> > 
> > - Print dialog: color management controls: should be set for Document (not Proof); Photoshop Manages Colors;
> > select the printer profile by name; use the Saturation intent; turn black point compensation off.
> > 
> > - Printer driver: 
> > 
> > 
> > > As a follow up, I noticed in another forum someone else was having a problem with creating profiles S3P, using a Epson 4000 and CS4. The person stated that he wrote to the DataColor tech specialist and was informed(via email) that there was an issue with S3P, the 4000 and CS4. I have requested a copy of that email to see what it states.
> > 
> > 2nd hand information through other forums isn't necessarily the best way to get info; what you read is only as accurate
> > as what people are posting and what you get from this can be prone to inaccuracy or misunderstanding.
> > 
> > That isn't a good way to get answers; you're much better served by going directly to the Datacolor web site and asking
> > the question there, yourself...:-)
> > 
> > > While I have a 4800 and also go through CS4, what I see is that since the Epson print driver is turned off, the printer is not an issue and in fact there may be an issue with S3P and CS4, since this is where I see the problem occuring.
> > 
> > No, that's not an issue. S3P builds the profiles completely independent of CS4. They're standard printer profiles, and they
> > work in all color managed applications, Adobe products included, of course.
> > 
> > As long as you print the target correctly and measure it correctly: you end up with a proper printer profile that will work
> > everywhere. There are no other interactions to consider.
> > 
> > 
> > > I also did another iteration(today) of the profile I'm trying to alter, and printed it through the S3P software and as in the past it showed the changes I had made.
> > 
> > Ok, that's good. But to point out something that you could be missing: you have to click the Next button to go to the
> > next screen (after the SpyderProof-View screen); and then name and save your profile (which, remember, is not a measurement file;
> > and the profile won't show up in S3P's popups, but it will show up in Photoshop's). You should make small changes in the profile
> > names so you can tell them apart. If you keep building into and overwriting the same profile, then (a) yes, Photoshop will use
> > that profile, and (b) that profile will have your adjustments flavored into it, and (c) that profile will produce the same print
> > that you get from testing inside S3P, as long as you have Photoshop's Print dialog set up correctly (as I've described above).
> > 
> > Whether you're printing from S3P or Photoshop: you need to have color management in the printer driver turned off the -same way-
> > it was when you printed the target. With Epson printers, this is very straightforward. The only place you can possibly go wrong
> > is with OSX Snow Leopard (10.6 and later), because there are 2 places in the OSX print dialog that you need to set things "right"
> > for color management to be turned off.
> > 
> > > Since this was printed in this manner and not through CS4, and the printer driver was turned off, the S3P drivers controlled the printing.
> > 
> > That's only partially true. You are controlling the printing by your driver setup. S3P simply sends the image out to the driver
> > with only the printer profile applied to it (as is also the case when Photoshop prints, if you set it up exactly as I've described
> > above).
> > 
> > > in other words, the printer and PS drivers were out of the loop.
> > 
> > PS drivers out of the loop: yes. Printer out of the loop: no (because you still have your driver setup at the OS level)
> > 
> > > Also, in making all these prints of the S3P test image, with all the different iterations I'm creating, I've noticed the info at the bottom left of the print has some data starting with SPTemp(some numbers-different with each print), the rendering intent stays the same but always the same date and time. Shouldn't this change with each new print made? 
> > > 
> > 
> > The date/time probably isn't getting refreshed if you keep looping around between those screens; it would get updated if you went
> > back to the first UI screen or quit and relaunched the app. Small bug which nobody seems to have noticed for years now...:-)
> > but it's cosmetic only and has nothing to do with the profile or how color management is being applied to your test print. (In other
> > words: ignore this)...:-)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > David Miller
> > Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> > Datacolor
> >
>

Re: What's wrong?

2011-10-19 by Keith

OK. I will now wipe the egg off my face. I re-read the original responses line by line. The one thing that I did differently was that I went into the Epson print dialog(for No Color Management)through the system rather than doing it within SP3 SR. The result was that since I really didn't turn off CM in the epson driver it printed the targets color managed and while they looked good, they were in fact off. I reprinted the targets this time making sure that CM was indeed turned off through SP3 SR and the targets did look much darker. When I read those and created the profile. I then used that new profile  with CS5 on an image I use to test profiles. The result is a profile that is perfect. Lesson learned.

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <kjrslr@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I would also add that in addition to upgrading my computer & PS, I also am running Win7-64 and PS 64. The profiles I have made end up in C:\windows\system32\.... . Is this this correct place for the new profiles? As I stated before, I have printed out of CS5.x(64) with profiles made when I had Vista32.
>

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.