Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

DGH1BII Question: Can I record and playback on this unit?

2008-01-14 by uhhmmmmmmmmmm

I went to the Yamaha web site and found the page for the DGH1BII.  It 
is called a playback only player piano, but in the fine print, it does 
sound like it can do some kind of recording of live performances.

Is it possible to record someone that is playing live on the piano for 
later playback?  Sorry if it's such a newbie question but I've been 
searching all over for an answer to this and I'm still not certain.

Also, I'm looking to buy this piano.  What is a fair price to pay for 
one that is in good condition (requires no work and is well 
maintained)?  Would you avoid such an old disklavier and instead look 
for a newer one?  I really don't know how much better the new ones are 
but they seem to have more bells and whistles.  I'm mostly interested 
in having a player piano for entertaining and also one that I can learn 
to play on and record my sessions for playback.  A good sounding piano 
wouldn't hurt either, but I've been told the baby grands don't sound 
all that great.

Thank you.

--Ron

Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII Question: Can I record and playback on this unit?

2008-01-14 by Carol Beigel

Playback only grands have no record strips under the keys.  You can tell by 
looking at the control box and NOT seeing a Record button.  You would only 
be able to record a live piano performance on this piano if you used 
microphones and made an audio file.  If you want to record a piano 
performance and play it back on your piano, you need to buy a full featured 
Disklavier.   Yamaha baby grands generally sound pretty good for their 
size - except THAT one!    My problem with that particular model is tuing C3 
down an octave from C4 (middle C) and the corresponding B3.    This problem 
is fixed in Yamaha's newest small baby grand, the GB1 and is a very nice, 
tunable piano.  G serires pianos are built for a price, and the C series 
grands sound much better, i.e. a C1 is a nicer piano than a GC1, or a GA1, 
or GH1B piano.  Of course, the best sounding pianos Yamaha makes are the 
handmade S series, but you pay big bucks for those!  The problem with buying 
a baby grand piano is that they all look alike, but are thousands of dollars 
apart in price.  You get what you pay for even though you cannot always see 
the difference, but sooner or later you will be able hear the difference!

Carol Beigel


  However, ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "uhhmmmmmmmmmm" <ronjong@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:59 PM
Subject: [disklavier] DGH1BII Question: Can I record and playback on this 
unit?

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>I went to the Yamaha web site and found the page for the DGH1BII.  It
> is called a playback only player piano, but in the fine print, it does
> sound like it can do some kind of recording of live performances.
>
> Is it possible to record someone that is playing live on the piano for
> later playback?  Sorry if it's such a newbie question but I've been
> searching all over for an answer to this and I'm still not certain.
>
> Also, I'm looking to buy this piano.  What is a fair price to pay for
> one that is in good condition (requires no work and is well
> maintained)?  Would you avoid such an old disklavier and instead look
> for a newer one?  I really don't know how much better the new ones are
> but they seem to have more bells and whistles.  I'm mostly interested
> in having a player piano for entertaining and also one that I can learn
> to play on and record my sessions for playback.  A good sounding piano
> wouldn't hurt either, but I've been told the baby grands don't sound
> all that great.
>
> Thank you.
>
> --Ron
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, 
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That 
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you 
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 1/13/2008 
> 8:23 PM
>
>

Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII Question: Can I record and playback on this unit?

2008-01-14 by George F. Litterst

Good evening, everyone.

Yamaha's current model playback-only grand is the DGB1CD.

On the other hand, the DGH1BII is a piano that does record and has  
MIDI Out functions. However, it is no longer imported into the United  
States. You can find detailed information here:

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D260%252526CNTYP%25253DPRODUCT,00.html

Regards,
PianoBench

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Jan 13, 2008, at 8:59 PM, uhhmmmmmmmmmm wrote:

> I went to the Yamaha web site and found the page for the DGH1BII. It
> is called a playback only player piano, but in the fine print, it does
> sound like it can do some kind of recording of live performances.
>
> Is it possible to record someone that is playing live on the piano for
> later playback? Sorry if it's such a newbie question but I've been
> searching all over for an answer to this and I'm still not certain.
>
> Also, I'm looking to buy this piano. What is a fair price to pay for
> one that is in good condition (requires no work and is well
> maintained)? Would you avoid such an old disklavier and instead look
> for a newer one? I really don't know how much better the new ones are
> but they seem to have more bells and whistles. I'm mostly interested
> in having a player piano for entertaining and also one that I can  
> learn
> to play on and record my sessions for playback. A good sounding piano
> wouldn't hurt either, but I've been told the baby grands don't sound
> all that great.
>
> Thank you.
>
> --Ron
>
>
>

DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

2008-01-14 by uhhmmmmmmmmmm

Thank you for the confirmation. I've been browsing through this great 
messageboard for more information.  I think what I'm reading is that 
people in the know generally prefer the upright U series disklaviers 
over the DGH1BII baby grands for sound.  I like the look of a baby 
grand but sound is important too.

I am torn between the two because I can obtain a 1992 model DGH1BII for 
around $7900 or a 1994 Japanese Market U1HQ100 for $2900 (both include 
delivery costs).  Which would you choose? ;)  I like the look of the 
DGH1BII but it does cost more and the sound/tuning apparently isn't as 
good.  Sorry to be so flaky.  I've seen both models and they look 
great, but I'm a beginning player so I really can't comment on the 
action and sound.

--Ron

Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

2008-01-14 by JORGE FERNANDEZ

(Not been an expert, my opinions are:) Mine is an Upright Mark II. It was new when I got it. (Mark III was already in the market then) I have no complaints,

Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

2008-01-14 by Carol Beigel

If you live in the United States, do not buy a gray market piano.  It is 
nearly impossible to get either technical support or parts.  Remember, there 
is a huge difference between a II and a IIXG.  XGs are more flexible.  If 
you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have it voiced into 
oblivion or trade it in for one you like better later.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message -----

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "uhhmmmmmmmmmm" <ronjong@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:22 PM
Subject: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?


> Thank you for the confirmation. I've been browsing through this great
> messageboard for more information.  I think what I'm reading is that
> people in the know generally prefer the upright U series disklaviers
> over the DGH1BII baby grands for sound.  I like the look of a baby
> grand but sound is important too.
>
> I am torn between the two because I can obtain a 1992 model DGH1BII for
> around $7900 or a 1994 Japanese Market U1HQ100 for $2900 (both include
> delivery costs).  Which would you choose? ;)  I like the look of the
> DGH1BII but it does cost more and the sound/tuning apparently isn't as
> good.  Sorry to be so flaky.  I've seen both models and they look
> great, but I'm a beginning player so I really can't comment on the
> action and sound.
>
> --Ron
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, 
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That 
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you 
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 1/13/2008 
> 8:23 PM
>

RE: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

2008-01-15 by Michael Weinstock

Hi Carol,

I'm intrigued ;regarding a comment you made here:

> If you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have it voiced into oblivion

Should I read into that that voicing can in some way cause damage if taken too far ? My understanding was that needling the hammers softened their felt thereby producing a more mellow tone, which in some cases is desirable if the tone is too bright and brassy to start with. ;If voicing is overdone, would not regular piano use recompress the hammer felts over time or is the situation not that simple ?

Regards,

Michael Weinstock

Melbourne, Australia

-----Original Message-----

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Beigel
Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 5:15 AM
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

If you live in the United States, do not buy a gray market piano. It is
nearly impossible to get either technical support or parts. Remember, there
is a huge difference between a II and a IIXG. XGs are more flexible. If
you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have it voiced into
oblivion or trade it in for one you like better later.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message -----
From: "uhhmmmmmmmmmm" <ronjong@yahoo.com>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:22 PM
Subject: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

> Thank you for the confirmation. I've been browsing through this great
> messageboard for more information. I think what I'm reading is that
> people in the know generally prefer the upright U series disklaviers
> over the DGH1BII baby grands for sound. I like the look of a baby
> grand but sound is important too.
>
> I am torn between the two because I can obtain a 1992 model DGH1BII for
> around $7900 or a 1994 Japanese Market U1HQ100 for $2900 (both include
> delivery costs). Which would you choose? ;) I like the look of the
> DGH1BII but it does cost more and the sound/tuning apparently isn't as
> good. Sorry to be so flaky. I've seen both models and they look
> great, but I'm a beginning player so I really can't comment on the
> action and sound.
>
> --Ron
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@YahooGroups.com
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@Yahoogroups.com
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com
>
> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@eGroups.com or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 1/13/2008
> 8:23 PM
>

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 13/01/2008 8:23 PM

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 13/01/2008 8:23 PM

RE: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

2008-01-15 by Mike Thomson

A piano technician friend of mine has commented that Yamaha hammers are very hard and difficult to needle. Certainly my Disklavier has very hard hammers and I suspect that for classical music a better solution might be a new set of non-Yamaha hammers. However, that process carries its own uncertainties, and voicing (needling and/or lacquering as required) would still be required after fitting.

My understanding has been that needling can indeed be overdone (or possibly badly) and thus destroy the structure of the hammer felt, which is at various places under either tension or pressure. I can personally confirm that lacquering hammer felts is an irreversible process! (See YouTube and search for Russ Conway's 'Side Saddle')

My own disklavier has the Silent facility, which necessitates some compromise in the regulation, as the let-off has to occur much earlier than would otherwise be desirable. I suspect this affects the sensitivity of the piano's touch for normal (hand) playing.

Regards,

Mike Thomson

To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: mweinstock@...
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:28:38 +1100
Subject: RE: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

Hi Carol,

I'm intrigued regarding a comment you made here:

> If you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have it voiced into oblivion

Should I read into that that voicing can in some way cause damage if taken too far ? My understanding was that needling the hammers softened their felt thereby producing a more mellow tone, which in some cases is desirable if the tone is too bright and brassy to start with. If voicing is overdone, would not regular piano use recompress the hammer felts over time or is the situation not that simple ?

Regards,

Michael Weinstock

Melbourne, Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Beigel
Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 5:15 AM
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

If you live in the United States, do not buy a gray market piano. It is
nearly impossible to get either technical support or parts. Remember, there
is a huge difference between a II and a IIXG. XGs are more flexible. If
you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have it voiced into
oblivion or trade it in for one you like better later.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message -----
From: "uhhmmmmmmmmmm" <ronjong@yahoo.com>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:22 PM
Subject: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

> Thank you for the confirmation. I've been browsing through this great
> messageboard for more information. I think what I'm reading is that
> people in the know generally prefer the upright U series disklaviers
> over the DGH1BII baby grands for sound. I like the look of a baby
> grand but sound is important too.
>
> I am torn between the two because I can obtain a 1992 model DGH1BII for
> around $7900 or a 1994 Japanese Market U1HQ100 for $2900 (both include
> delivery costs). Which would you choose? ;) I like the look of the
> DGH1BII but it does cost more and the sound/tuning apparently isn't as
> good. Sorry to be so flaky. I've seen both models and they look
> great, but I'm a beginning player so I really can't comment on the
> action and sound.
>
> --Ron
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@YahooGroups.com
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@Yahoogroups.com
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com
>
> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@eGroups.com or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 1/13/2008
> 8:23 PM
>

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 13/01/2008 8:23 PM

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 13/01/2008 8:23 PM

Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

2008-01-15 by Carol Beigel

Okay, I stepped into that one! ; Basically, voicing is a good thing. You are correct that needling hammers softens them and regular piano use recompresses the hammer felts - especially in the string grooves. What often makes a piano sound harsh and tinny, as opposed to just bright, is that the felt in the grooves cut by the strings is too hard and generates wild, high harmonics. A little touch up, or sugar coating with a voicing needle can produce a sweeter, more mellow tone in that situation.

A good visual image is lobbing a 10 lb. bowling ball into the deep end of a quiet swimming pool.You see a cannon ball type spash at the impact, then beautiful rings spreading across the pool. When sitting at a piano, you hear the splash, while the people sitting further out in the room are hearing the rings. The splash can sound especially annoying when sitting at a grand piano.

The objective of piano designers is to hear an explosion of sound upon impact of the hitting of the hammer against the string called an impact blow. You want the tip of the hammer to be firm, but the shoulders need to be more flexible. You open up the sound by needling the shoulders. If the hammers are too hard the sound is dull and harsh.

Piano hammers are designed and voiced using two different philosophies. Steinway pianos are voiced using lacquer on the hammer felts. During some of my factory training at Steinway school, one of our tasks was to lacquer a set of hammers to the point of ruining the sound, then bringing it back. Yamaha uses a different method where the hammer felt is hot pressed and then voiced using needles. For me, the coolest control issue you can take charge of over the piano is being able to take the voice of a piano between bright and mellow and have absolute control of the dynamics in between.

;

When you select a piano, the quality of the hammers is built into the price you pay. The more you pay the greater dynamic range is built into the possibilities of the tone. Pianos built to a lower price usually have harder felts in the hammers and higher tension stringing scales. This way affords getting more bang for the buck. These hard hammers are mightly difficult to ruin - even using vice grip pliers or steam!!

Most people complain that their pianos are too loud not that they have too limited a dynamic range. You can have the piano hammers softened; put foam baffles both underneath the soundboard and underneath the lid, or just change the velocity parameter of the MIDI data to about 64 or lower.

Hope this better explains "oblivion"!

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message -----

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Michael Weinstock

To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:28 AM

Subject: RE: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

Hi Carol,

I'm intrigued regarding a comment you made here:

> If you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have it voiced into ;oblivion

;

Should I read into that that voicing can in some way cause damage if taken too far ? My understanding was that needling the hammers softened their felt thereby producing a more mellow tone, which in some cases is desirable if the tone is too bright and brassy to start with. If voicing is overdone, would not regular piano use recompress the hammer felts over time or is the situation not that simple ?

Regards,

Michael Weinstock

Melbourne, Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Beigel
Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 5:15 AM
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

If you live in the United States, do not buy a gray market piano. It is
nearly impossible to get either technical support or parts. Remember, there
is a huge difference between a II and a IIXG. XGs are more flexible. If
you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have it voiced into
oblivion or trade it in for one you like better later.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message -----
From: "uhhmmmmmmmmmm" <ronjong@yahoo.com>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:22 PM
Subject: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

> Thank you for the confirmation. I've been browsing through this great
> messageboard for more information. I think what I'm reading is that
>; people in the know generally prefer the upright U series disklaviers
> over the DGH1BII baby grands for sound. I like the look of a baby
> grand but sound is important too.
>
> I am torn between the two because I can obtain a 1992 model DGH1BII for
> around $7900 or a 1994 Japanese Market U1HQ100 for $2900 (both include
> delivery costs). Which would you choose? ;) I like the look of the
> DGH1BII but it does cost more and the sound/tuning apparently isn't as
> good. Sorry to be so flaky. I've seen both models and they look
> great, but I'm a beginning player so I really can't comment on the
> action and sound.
>
> --Ron
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@YahooGroups.com
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@Yahoogroups.com
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>; disklavier-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com
>
> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@eGroups.com or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 1/13/2008
> 8:23 PM
>

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 13/01/2008 8:23 PM

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 13/01/2008 8:23 PM

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 1/13/2008 8:23 PM

Re: DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

2008-01-15 by ramseymonoi

This forum is highly instructive.

However, may I ask what needling actually means ? And do you mean 
that yamaha uses actual needles on their felt ? Is that a manual 
process ?

Pascal

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@...> 
wrote:
>
> MessageOkay, I stepped into that one!  Basically, voicing is a good 
thing.  You are correct that needling hammers softens them and 
regular piano use recompresses the hammer felts - especially in the 
string grooves.  What often makes a piano sound harsh and tinny, as 
opposed to just bright, is that the felt in the grooves cut by the 
strings is too hard and generates wild, high harmonics. A little 
touch up, or sugar coating with a voicing needle can produce a 
sweeter, more mellow tone in that situation.
> 
>  A good visual image is lobbing a 10 lb. bowling ball into the deep 
end of a quiet swimming pool.You see a cannon ball type spash at the 
impact, then beautiful rings spreading across the pool.  When sitting 
at a piano, you hear the splash, while the people sitting further out 
in the room are hearing the rings.  The splash can sound especially 
annoying when sitting at a grand piano.
> 
> The objective of piano designers is to hear an explosion of sound 
upon impact of the hitting of the hammer against the string called an 
impact blow.  You want the tip of the hammer to be firm, but the 
shoulders need to be more flexible.  You open up the sound by 
needling the shoulders.  If the hammers are too hard the sound is 
dull and harsh.
> 
> Piano hammers are designed and voiced using two different  
philosophies.  Steinway pianos are voiced using lacquer on the hammer 
felts.  During some of my factory training at Steinway school, one of 
our tasks was to lacquer a set of hammers to the point of ruining the 
sound, then bringing it back.  Yamaha uses a different method where 
the hammer felt is hot pressed and then voiced using needles.  For 
me, the coolest control issue you can take charge of over the piano 
is being able to take the voice of a piano between bright and mellow 
and have absolute control of the dynamics in between.
> 
> When you select a piano, the quality of the hammers is built into 
the price you pay.  The more you pay the greater dynamic range is 
built into the possibilities of the tone.  Pianos built to a lower 
price usually have harder felts in the hammers and higher tension 
stringing scales.  This way affords getting more bang for the buck.  
These hard hammers are mightly difficult to ruin - even using vice 
grip pliers or steam!!
> 
> Most people complain that their pianos are too loud  not that they 
have too limited a dynamic range.  You can have the piano hammers 
softened; put foam baffles both underneath the soundboard and 
underneath the lid, or just change the velocity parameter of the MIDI 
data to about 64 or lower.
> 
> Hope this better explains "oblivion"!
> 
> Carol Beigel
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Michael Weinstock 
>   To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:28 AM
>   Subject: RE: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you 
rather own?
> 
> 
>   Hi Carol,
> 
>   I'm intrigued regarding a comment you made here:
> 
>   > If you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have 
it voiced into oblivion
> 
>   Should I read into that that voicing can in some way cause damage 
if taken too far ?  My understanding was that needling the hammers 
softened their felt thereby producing a more mellow tone, which in 
some cases is desirable if the tone is too bright and brassy to start 
with.  If voicing is overdone, would not regular piano use recompress 
the hammer felts over time or is the situation not that simple ?
> 
>   Regards,
> 
>   Michael Weinstock
>   Melbourne, Australia  
> 
> 
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Beigel
>     Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 5:15 AM
>     To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>     Subject: Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you 
rather own?
> 
> 
>     If you live in the United States, do not buy a gray market 
piano. It is 
>     nearly impossible to get either technical support or parts. 
Remember, there 
>     is a huge difference between a II and a IIXG. XGs are more 
flexible. If 
>     you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have it 
voiced into 
>     oblivion or trade it in for one you like better later.
> 
>     Carol Beigel
> 
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>     From: "uhhmmmmmmmmmm" <ronjong@...>
>     To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>     Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:22 PM
>     Subject: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you 
rather own?
> 
>     > Thank you for the confirmation. I've been browsing through 
this great
>     > messageboard for more information. I think what I'm reading 
is that
>     > people in the know generally prefer the upright U series 
disklaviers
>     > over the DGH1BII baby grands for sound. I like the look of a 
baby
>     > grand but sound is important too.
>     >
>     > I am torn between the two because I can obtain a 1992 model 
DGH1BII for
>     > around $7900 or a 1994 Japanese Market U1HQ100 for $2900 
(both include
>     > delivery costs). Which would you choose? ;) I like the look 
of the
>     > DGH1BII but it does cost more and the sound/tuning apparently 
isn't as
>     > good. Sorry to be so flaky. I've seen both models and they 
look
>     > great, but I'm a beginning player so I really can't comment 
on the
>     > action and sound.
>     >
>     > --Ron
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@...
>     >
>     > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder 
and 
>     > moderator, send it to:
>     > disklavier-owner@...
>     >
>     > To reach our group's web site go to:
>     > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>     >
>     > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>     > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting 
too much mail, 
>     > go the the web site and change your email delivery option 
instead. That 
>     > will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the 
group. If you 
>     > insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>     > disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>     >
>     > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email 
to:
>     > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>     > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>     >
>     > Yahoo! Groups Links
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > -- 
>     > No virus found in this incoming message.
>     > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>     > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release 
Date: 1/13/2008 
>     > 8:23 PM
>     > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>     Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>     Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release 
Date: 13/01/2008 8:23 PM
> 
> 
>    
> 
>   No virus found in this outgoing message.
>   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>   Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 
13/01/2008 8:23 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> 
> 
>   No virus found in this incoming message.
>   Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
>   Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 
1/13/2008 8:23 PM
>

Re: [disklavier] Re: DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

2008-01-15 by Carol Beigel

Voicing is what piano technicians do using needles, lacquer or steam to 
adjust the tone of a piano by messing with the texture of the piano hammers. 
A voicing tool can either have a single needle or 3 of them.  The needles 
are used at varying depths on the hammer felt in different locations on the 
piano hammer to get different results.  Needles called sharps in sizes 6 to 
9 are the most popular.  It is an art and usually a skill learned after many 
years of practice.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message -----

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "ramseymonoi" <ramseymonoi@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:44 AM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?


> This forum is highly instructive.
>
> However, may I ask what needling actually means ? And do you mean
> that yamaha uses actual needles on their felt ? Is that a manual
> process ?
>
> Pascal
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> MessageOkay, I stepped into that one!  Basically, voicing is a good
> thing.  You are correct that needling hammers softens them and
> regular piano use recompresses the hammer felts - especially in the
> string grooves.  What often makes a piano sound harsh and tinny, as
> opposed to just bright, is that the felt in the grooves cut by the
> strings is too hard and generates wild, high harmonics. A little
> touch up, or sugar coating with a voicing needle can produce a
> sweeter, more mellow tone in that situation.
>>
>>  A good visual image is lobbing a 10 lb. bowling ball into the deep
> end of a quiet swimming pool.You see a cannon ball type spash at the
> impact, then beautiful rings spreading across the pool.  When sitting
> at a piano, you hear the splash, while the people sitting further out
> in the room are hearing the rings.  The splash can sound especially
> annoying when sitting at a grand piano.
>>
>> The objective of piano designers is to hear an explosion of sound
> upon impact of the hitting of the hammer against the string called an
> impact blow.  You want the tip of the hammer to be firm, but the
> shoulders need to be more flexible.  You open up the sound by
> needling the shoulders.  If the hammers are too hard the sound is
> dull and harsh.
>>
>> Piano hammers are designed and voiced using two different
> philosophies.  Steinway pianos are voiced using lacquer on the hammer
> felts.  During some of my factory training at Steinway school, one of
> our tasks was to lacquer a set of hammers to the point of ruining the
> sound, then bringing it back.  Yamaha uses a different method where
> the hammer felt is hot pressed and then voiced using needles.  For
> me, the coolest control issue you can take charge of over the piano
> is being able to take the voice of a piano between bright and mellow
> and have absolute control of the dynamics in between.
>>
>> When you select a piano, the quality of the hammers is built into
> the price you pay.  The more you pay the greater dynamic range is
> built into the possibilities of the tone.  Pianos built to a lower
> price usually have harder felts in the hammers and higher tension
> stringing scales.  This way affords getting more bang for the buck.
> These hard hammers are mightly difficult to ruin - even using vice
> grip pliers or steam!!
>>
>> Most people complain that their pianos are too loud  not that they
> have too limited a dynamic range.  You can have the piano hammers
> softened; put foam baffles both underneath the soundboard and
> underneath the lid, or just change the velocity parameter of the MIDI
> data to about 64 or lower.
>>
>> Hope this better explains "oblivion"!
>>
>> Carol Beigel
>>
>>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>>   From: Michael Weinstock
>>   To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>>   Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:28 AM
>>   Subject: RE: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you
> rather own?
>>
>>
>>   Hi Carol,
>>
>>   I'm intrigued regarding a comment you made here:
>>
>>   > If you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have
> it voiced into oblivion
>>
>>   Should I read into that that voicing can in some way cause damage
> if taken too far ?  My understanding was that needling the hammers
> softened their felt thereby producing a more mellow tone, which in
> some cases is desirable if the tone is too bright and brassy to start
> with.  If voicing is overdone, would not regular piano use recompress
> the hammer felts over time or is the situation not that simple ?
>>
>>   Regards,
>>
>>   Michael Weinstock
>>   Melbourne, Australia
>>
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Beigel
>>     Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 5:15 AM
>>     To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>>     Subject: Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you
> rather own?
>>
>>
>>     If you live in the United States, do not buy a gray market
> piano. It is
>>     nearly impossible to get either technical support or parts.
> Remember, there
>>     is a huge difference between a II and a IIXG. XGs are more
> flexible. If
>>     you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have it
> voiced into
>>     oblivion or trade it in for one you like better later.
>>
>>     Carol Beigel
>>
>>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>>     From: "uhhmmmmmmmmmm" <ronjong@...>
>>     To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>>     Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:22 PM
>>     Subject: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you
> rather own?
>>
>>     > Thank you for the confirmation. I've been browsing through
> this great
>>     > messageboard for more information. I think what I'm reading
> is that
>>     > people in the know generally prefer the upright U series
> disklaviers
>>     > over the DGH1BII baby grands for sound. I like the look of a
> baby
>>     > grand but sound is important too.
>>     >
>>     > I am torn between the two because I can obtain a 1992 model
> DGH1BII for
>>     > around $7900 or a 1994 Japanese Market U1HQ100 for $2900
> (both include
>>     > delivery costs). Which would you choose? ;) I like the look
> of the
>>     > DGH1BII but it does cost more and the sound/tuning apparently
> isn't as
>>     > good. Sorry to be so flaky. I've seen both models and they
> look
>>     > great, but I'm a beginning player so I really can't comment
> on the
>>     > action and sound.
>>     >
>>     > --Ron
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@...
>>     >
>>     > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder
> and
>>     > moderator, send it to:
>>     > disklavier-owner@...
>>     >
>>     > To reach our group's web site go to:
>>     > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>>     >
>>     > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>>     > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting
> too much mail,
>>     > go the the web site and change your email delivery option
> instead. That
>>     > will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the
> group. If you
>>     > insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>>     > disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>>     >
>>     > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email
> to:
>>     > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>>     > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>>     >
>>     > Yahoo! Groups Links
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > -- 
>>     > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>     > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>     > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release
> Date: 1/13/2008
>>     > 8:23 PM
>>     >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>>     Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>     Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release
> Date: 13/01/2008 8:23 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>   Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date:
> 13/01/2008 8:23 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
>>
>>
>>   No virus found in this incoming message.
>>   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>   Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date:
> 1/13/2008 8:23 PM
>>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, 
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That 
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you 
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 1/14/2008 
> 5:39 PM
>

Re: DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you rather own?

2008-01-15 by ramseymonoi

Thank you.

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@...> 
wrote:
>
> Voicing is what piano technicians do using needles, lacquer or 
steam to 
> adjust the tone of a piano by messing with the texture of the piano 
hammers. 
> A voicing tool can either have a single needle or 3 of them.  The 
needles 
> are used at varying depths on the hammer felt in different 
locations on the 
> piano hammer to get different results.  Needles called sharps in 
sizes 6 to 
> 9 are the most popular.  It is an art and usually a skill learned 
after many 
> years of practice.
> 
> Carol Beigel
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "ramseymonoi" <ramseymonoi@...>
> To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:44 AM
> Subject: [disklavier] Re: DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you 
rather own?
> 
> 
> > This forum is highly instructive.
> >
> > However, may I ask what needling actually means ? And do you mean
> > that yamaha uses actual needles on their felt ? Is that a manual
> > process ?
> >
> > Pascal
> >
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> MessageOkay, I stepped into that one!  Basically, voicing is a 
good
> > thing.  You are correct that needling hammers softens them and
> > regular piano use recompresses the hammer felts - especially in 
the
> > string grooves.  What often makes a piano sound harsh and tinny, 
as
> > opposed to just bright, is that the felt in the grooves cut by the
> > strings is too hard and generates wild, high harmonics. A little
> > touch up, or sugar coating with a voicing needle can produce a
> > sweeter, more mellow tone in that situation.
> >>
> >>  A good visual image is lobbing a 10 lb. bowling ball into the 
deep
> > end of a quiet swimming pool.You see a cannon ball type spash at 
the
> > impact, then beautiful rings spreading across the pool.  When 
sitting
> > at a piano, you hear the splash, while the people sitting further 
out
> > in the room are hearing the rings.  The splash can sound 
especially
> > annoying when sitting at a grand piano.
> >>
> >> The objective of piano designers is to hear an explosion of sound
> > upon impact of the hitting of the hammer against the string 
called an
> > impact blow.  You want the tip of the hammer to be firm, but the
> > shoulders need to be more flexible.  You open up the sound by
> > needling the shoulders.  If the hammers are too hard the sound is
> > dull and harsh.
> >>
> >> Piano hammers are designed and voiced using two different
> > philosophies.  Steinway pianos are voiced using lacquer on the 
hammer
> > felts.  During some of my factory training at Steinway school, 
one of
> > our tasks was to lacquer a set of hammers to the point of ruining 
the
> > sound, then bringing it back.  Yamaha uses a different method 
where
> > the hammer felt is hot pressed and then voiced using needles.  For
> > me, the coolest control issue you can take charge of over the 
piano
> > is being able to take the voice of a piano between bright and 
mellow
> > and have absolute control of the dynamics in between.
> >>
> >> When you select a piano, the quality of the hammers is built into
> > the price you pay.  The more you pay the greater dynamic range is
> > built into the possibilities of the tone.  Pianos built to a lower
> > price usually have harder felts in the hammers and higher tension
> > stringing scales.  This way affords getting more bang for the 
buck.
> > These hard hammers are mightly difficult to ruin - even using vice
> > grip pliers or steam!!
> >>
> >> Most people complain that their pianos are too loud  not that 
they
> > have too limited a dynamic range.  You can have the piano hammers
> > softened; put foam baffles both underneath the soundboard and
> > underneath the lid, or just change the velocity parameter of the 
MIDI
> > data to about 64 or lower.
> >>
> >> Hope this better explains "oblivion"!
> >>
> >> Carol Beigel
> >>
> >>   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>   From: Michael Weinstock
> >>   To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> >>   Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:28 AM
> >>   Subject: RE: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you
> > rather own?
> >>
> >>
> >>   Hi Carol,
> >>
> >>   I'm intrigued regarding a comment you made here:
> >>
> >>   > If you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have
> > it voiced into oblivion
> >>
> >>   Should I read into that that voicing can in some way cause 
damage
> > if taken too far ?  My understanding was that needling the hammers
> > softened their felt thereby producing a more mellow tone, which in
> > some cases is desirable if the tone is too bright and brassy to 
start
> > with.  If voicing is overdone, would not regular piano use 
recompress
> > the hammer felts over time or is the situation not that simple ?
> >>
> >>   Regards,
> >>
> >>   Michael Weinstock
> >>   Melbourne, Australia
> >>
> >>
> >>     -----Original Message-----
> >>     From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Beigel
> >>     Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 5:15 AM
> >>     To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> >>     Subject: Re: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you
> > rather own?
> >>
> >>
> >>     If you live in the United States, do not buy a gray market
> > piano. It is
> >>     nearly impossible to get either technical support or parts.
> > Remember, there
> >>     is a huge difference between a II and a IIXG. XGs are more
> > flexible. If
> >>     you don't like the sound of the piano, you can always have it
> > voiced into
> >>     oblivion or trade it in for one you like better later.
> >>
> >>     Carol Beigel
> >>
> >>     ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>     From: "uhhmmmmmmmmmm" <ronjong@>
> >>     To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
> >>     Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:22 PM
> >>     Subject: [disklavier] DGH1BII or U1HQ100. Which would you
> > rather own?
> >>
> >>     > Thank you for the confirmation. I've been browsing through
> > this great
> >>     > messageboard for more information. I think what I'm reading
> > is that
> >>     > people in the know generally prefer the upright U series
> > disklaviers
> >>     > over the DGH1BII baby grands for sound. I like the look of 
a
> > baby
> >>     > grand but sound is important too.
> >>     >
> >>     > I am torn between the two because I can obtain a 1992 model
> > DGH1BII for
> >>     > around $7900 or a 1994 Japanese Market U1HQ100 for $2900
> > (both include
> >>     > delivery costs). Which would you choose? ;) I like the look
> > of the
> >>     > DGH1BII but it does cost more and the sound/tuning 
apparently
> > isn't as
> >>     > good. Sorry to be so flaky. I've seen both models and they
> > look
> >>     > great, but I'm a beginning player so I really can't comment
> > on the
> >>     > action and sound.
> >>     >
> >>     > --Ron
> >>     >
> >>     >
> >>     >
> >>     > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@
> >>     >
> >>     > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's 
founder
> > and
> >>     > moderator, send it to:
> >>     > disklavier-owner@
> >>     >
> >>     > To reach our group's web site go to:
> >>     > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> >>     >
> >>     > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> >>     > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting
> > too much mail,
> >>     > go the the web site and change your email delivery option
> > instead. That
> >>     > will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the
> > group. If you
> >>     > insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> >>     > disklavier-unsubscribe@
> >>     >
> >>     > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank 
email
> > to:
> >>     > disklavier-subscribe@ or give them this link:
> >>     > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> >>     >
> >>     > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>     >
> >>     >
> >>     >
> >>     >
> >>     >
> >>     > -- 
> >>     > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>     > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>     > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release
> > Date: 1/13/2008
> >>     > 8:23 PM
> >>     >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>     Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>     Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release
> > Date: 13/01/2008 8:23 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >>   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>   Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release 
Date:
> > 13/01/2008 8:23 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
---
> > ----------
> >>
> >>
> >>   No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>   Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release 
Date:
> > 1/13/2008 8:23 PM
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> >
> > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> > moderator, send it to:
> > disklavier-owner@...
> >
> > To reach our group's web site go to:
> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> >
> > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too 
much mail, 
> > go the the web site and change your email delivery option 
instead.  That 
> > will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the 
group.  If you 
> > insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> > disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 
1/14/2008

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> > 5:39 PM
> >
>