Disklavier

PianoBench@... wrote:

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Hello Everyone,

In a message dated 1/18/01 3:43:00 PM, John writes:

<<  I am trying to locate an owners manual for an upright disklavier made 
around 1991 or '92.  It is a Japanese model MX101, but whatever the 
model # that was made for the american market would be usable. It is an 
upright model, non midi I believe.  

...I have already contacted Yamaha, and they are
unwilling (not unable) to supply this manual. The reason is that the
instrument was not originally made for the US market, but an overseas model,
and they will not support it. They insisted on getting a serial # to prove it
was a US model before they would send it.  Any lines on one that could be
reproduced??  I am also contacting Yamaha in Japan, hoping they can supply
one... any other ideas???   >>

This is a tough issue. Pianos that are made by Yamaha for the Asian market do

not go through the same process of seasoning the wood that is applied to 
pianos made for the US market. For this reason, it is not recommended that 
Yamaha pianos made for the Asian market be imported into the US. Furthermore,

the Disklavier model numbers are different (as you have found out), and no 
one in the US has the information necessary to support their use.

I would suggest taking this issue up with the dealer who sold you the piano. 
It would seem to me that he/she has a moral obligation to provide you with 
this sort of support.

Regards,
PianoBench


Hi Piano Bench,

thanks for your reply.  But this is the situation: I am a piano technician
with over 25 yrs experience. I have little faith in the claims of Yamaha's
reasoning not to support the instrument due to climate/seasoning etc. Pianos
undergo extreme climatic changes even within the US. They didn't design a
completely different disklavier unit for Japan I don't believe. Even if it is
another model #.  I understand that the different language capabilities are a
menu choice even in the US models. 
I am astounded that they do not support this unit, solely from my observation
that it is to protect the US Yamaha dealers from any foriegn competition. This
seems unethical. 
    I sold this unit for a dealer I work with, yes, I feel obligated to get my
customer any info I can about it. If you know how to switch the menu to
english from japanese, that would be a big start. There are many Japanese made
pianos coming into the states. If you have done this for any time, I assume
that you have, you've seen the changes int the american/imported piano mix. 
It's a printed booklet, nothing compicated.  Whay can't they just sell me one?
 Why to I need to have a piano at all in order to buy a book?  Doesn't this
seem ulikely to you?  Do you have any suggestions beyond the company?    
thanks. john

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Hello Everyone,

Regarding a Disklavier imported from Japan, johnsound@... writes:

<< thanks for your reply.  But this is the situation: I am a piano technician
with over 25 yrs experience. I have little faith in the claims of Yamaha's
reasoning not to support the instrument due to climate/seasoning etc.>>

I am a consultant to the Piano Division of Yamaha, but not an employee. I 
don't make their policies and am not attempting to pass judgement on them. In 
my previous post, I was just trying to explain the situation as it has been 
explained to me. I have been told that the wood in Yamaha pianos made for the 
Asian market has not been dried to the extent that it has been dried for the 
American marktet. For this reason, Yamaha Corporation of America does not get 
involved with pianos which the parent company has not made for this market. 
In other businesses, it is not uncommon for companies to limit warranties on 
products.

I will not debate whether or not this is a good policy. However, knowing 
people a lot of people at Yamaha Corp. of America, I believe that it is 
correct to say that they usually do not have specific information about 
models made for other markets.

<<Pianos undergo extreme climatic changes even within the US.>>

I believe that the issue is whether the wood has been dried to a low moisture 
content so that it can withstand the low humidity in our centrally-heated 
houses.

<<They didn't design a completely different disklavier unit for Japan I don't 
believe.>>

I have heard that Disklaviers in other countries may have had different 
feature sets, but that is just a rumor. I don't have any hard evidence one 
way or another.

<<Even if it is
another model #.  I understand that the different language capabilities are a
menu choice even in the US models.>>

This is true. I don't know if the Asian Disklaviers also have a choice of 
language. 

<<I am astounded that they do not support this unit, solely from my 
observation
that it is to protect the US Yamaha dealers from any foriegn competition. This
seems unethical.>>

Support is a costly issue. I am sure that a good argument can be made that 
Yamaha goes a great distance to make and support appropriate models for its 
various world-wide markets. 

<<I sold this unit for a dealer I work with, yes, I feel obligated to get my
customer any info I can about it. If you know how to switch the menu to
english from japanese, that would be a big start. There are many Japanese made
pianos coming into the states. If you have done this for any time, I assume
that you have, you've seen the changes int the american/imported piano mix. 
It's a printed booklet, nothing compicated.  Whay can't they just sell me 
one?>>

I think it is accurate to say that Yamaha Piano Service in the US does not 
have the manual which goes with your model and has not been provided with any 
information to correlate this Asian model with a similar US model.

<<Why to I need to have a piano at all in order to buy a book?  Doesn't this
seem ulikely to you?  Do you have any suggestions beyond the company?    
thanks.  >>

I would presume that the dealers in the market which originally sold the 
instrument would be able to provide manuals. You might try to compare the 
look of the control unit to control units which have been used with 
Disklaviers made for America and see if you can identify one which looks 
similar.

Regards,
PianoBench

<<Pianos undergo extreme climatic changes even within the US.>>
As we found out in 1963 when a great number of the pianos we initially imported had to be replaced or repaired as Yamaha greatly underestimated the dryness of the typical American home.  It was an expensive lesson we learned well, and have not forgotten. 

<<They didn't design a completely different Disklavier unit for Japan I don't 
believe.>>
Wrong.  Different global areas get the features the marketing people in that area request.  Also, the USA requires UL approval, which other countries don't, so the design IS different.

<<Even if it is
another model #.  I understand that the different language capabilities are a
menu choice even in the US models.>>

The default language is Japanese.  For the Japanese market, the pianos don't have the English option, and as far as I know, it can't be added.

<<I am astounded that they do not support this unit, solely from my 
observation
that it is to protect the US Yamaha dealers from any foreign competition. This
seems unethical.>>

Bull.  We don't have time to support the pianos we have information about as well, or as quickly as we would like.   How much of your time would you spend talking to callers who are phoning in to ask you about a piano you have never seen, and have no information about?  And if it started to impact your regular customers who can't get through to leave a message or talk to you?


Mark Wisner
Piano Service
Yamaha Corporation
mwisner@...

Mark,

As right as you may be, it probably doesn't serve anybody very well to take
a hostile tone.  You represent Yamaha when you use Yamaha in your signature,
and I don't think it's inappropriate for a buyer of a Yamaha product
manufactured in one part of the world to expect support from Yamaha in
another part of the world.  Yamaha is a Wolrd-Class organization, and
consumers come to expect certain things from those organizations whether it
is easy for the company to provide it or not.

All reasons for lack of service, or refusal to support these products are
naturally going to elicit conspiracy theories from some people.  Just accept
it.  Reasonable people will come to reasonable conclusions based on facts.
Thank you for the facts in your reply.

-Shawn Nunley
(a happy Mark II owner)

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Wisner [mailto:MWisner@...]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 10:50 AM
To: disklavier@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [disklavier] Owners manual - older disklavier]]


<<Pianos undergo extreme climatic changes even within the US.>>
As we found out in 1963 when a great number of the pianos we initially
imported had to be replaced or repaired as Yamaha greatly underestimated the
dryness of the typical American home.  It was an expensive lesson we learned
well, and have not forgotten.

<<They didn't design a completely different Disklavier unit for Japan I
don't
believe.>>
Wrong.  Different global areas get the features the marketing people in that
area request.  Also, the USA requires UL approval, which other countries
don't, so the design IS different.

<<Even if it is
another model #.  I understand that the different language capabilities are
a
menu choice even in the US models.>>

The default language is Japanese.  For the Japanese market, the pianos don't
have the English option, and as far as I know, it can't be added.

<<I am astounded that they do not support this unit, solely from my
observation
that it is to protect the US Yamaha dealers from any foreign competition.
This
seems unethical.>>

Bull.  We don't have time to support the pianos we have information about as
well, or as quickly as we would like.   How much of your time would you
spend talking to callers who are phoning in to ask you about a piano you
have never seen, and have no information about?  And if it started to impact
your regular customers who can't get through to leave a message or talk to
you?


Mark Wisner
Piano Service
Yamaha Corporation
mwisner@...


To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...

To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator,
send it to:
disklavier-owner@egroups.com

To reach our group's web site go to:
http://egroups.com/group/disklavier

To visit Todd's family web site that contains some fun disklavier content
among other things, go to:
http://MuncyFamily.com

THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That
will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you
insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
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Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
disklavier-subscribe@...

Sorry Shawn, but I weigh in with Mark on this issue.  It is perfectly
reasonable for any company to refuse support for a product originally
manufactured for a completely different market.  An acoustic piano is simply
not the same thing as a stereo, a pair of Nikes, etc.  It has to be
manufactured for the specific environmental conditions to be expected in the
market to which it is being distributed.  Asia is significantly more humid
than a large part of the US and the wide spread use of central heating in
this county can cause significant damage including cracked soundboards and
warped actions.  Read Larry Fine's "The Piano Book" or talk to any
knowledgable piano technician.  Yamaha, especially, learned this lesson when
it first started to export pianos to this country.

Because many of the cultures of Asia shun the purchase of "used" goods,
there is a large supply of used pianos available to be shipped to the US at
very reasonable prices.  The purchase of one of these pianos carries a
certain amount of risk.  It can either turn out to be a really good deal or
a horrible loss.  Since the movement of these pianos into this market is not
the responsibility of Yamaha, why should they be responsible for supporting
warranty issues, manuals, etc. for these pianos?  Yamaha Corporation of
America's first responsibility, in my opinion, is to support the purchasers
of pianos intended for the North America market.  Yamaha is certainly a
"World-Class" organization but each subsidiary is responsible for their
profit and loss.

Personally, I don't think Mark's tone was hostile or inappropriate.
Sometimes people just need to hear it like it is.  I recently asked Mark
privately a question about Yamaha's ServiceBond policy.  I didn't like his
answer but I accepted it as truthful and I understand Yamaha's point of
view.  It doesn't make me less satisfied in my purchase and I wouldn't
hesitate to purchase another Yamaha piano.  However, I'm very disappointed
that the dealer in question clearly misled me that they would support all
the terms of the ServiceBond and, in fact, they won't.  That is the last
time I purchase a piano from this dealer.  From now on I will travel to
Seattle or another regional market for my purchase.

    Jim Cook

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Nunley" <shawn@...>
To: <disklavier@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 2:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Re: [Re: [disklavier] Owners manual - older disklavier]]


> Mark,
>
> As right as you may be, it probably doesn't serve anybody very well to
take
> a hostile tone.  You represent Yamaha when you use Yamaha in your
signature,
> and I don't think it's inappropriate for a buyer of a Yamaha product
> manufactured in one part of the world to expect support from Yamaha in
> another part of the world.  Yamaha is a Wolrd-Class organization, and
> consumers come to expect certain things from those organizations whether
it
> is easy for the company to provide it or not.
>
> All reasons for lack of service, or refusal to support these products are
> naturally going to elicit conspiracy theories from some people.  Just
accept
> it.  Reasonable people will come to reasonable conclusions based on facts.
> Thank you for the facts in your reply.
>
> -Shawn Nunley
> (a happy Mark II owner)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Wisner [mailto:MWisner@...]
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 10:50 AM
> To: disklavier@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [disklavier] Owners manual - older disklavier]]
>
>
> <<Pianos undergo extreme climatic changes even within the US.>>
> As we found out in 1963 when a great number of the pianos we initially
> imported had to be replaced or repaired as Yamaha greatly underestimated
the
> dryness of the typical American home.  It was an expensive lesson we
learned
> well, and have not forgotten.
>
> <<They didn't design a completely different Disklavier unit for Japan I
> don't
> believe.>>
> Wrong.  Different global areas get the features the marketing people in
that
> area request.  Also, the USA requires UL approval, which other countries
> don't, so the design IS different.
>
> <<Even if it is
> another model #.  I understand that the different language capabilities
are
> a
> menu choice even in the US models.>>
>
> The default language is Japanese.  For the Japanese market, the pianos
don't
> have the English option, and as far as I know, it can't be added.
>
> <<I am astounded that they do not support this unit, solely from my
> observation
> that it is to protect the US Yamaha dealers from any foreign competition.
> This
> seems unethical.>>
>
> Bull.  We don't have time to support the pianos we have information about
as
> well, or as quickly as we would like.   How much of your time would you
> spend talking to callers who are phoning in to ask you about a piano you
> have never seen, and have no information about?  And if it started to
impact
> your regular customers who can't get through to leave a message or talk to
> you?
>
>
> Mark Wisner
> Piano Service
> Yamaha Corporation
> mwisner@...
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
moderator,
> send it to:
> disklavier-owner@egroups.com
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://egroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> To visit Todd's family web site that contains some fun disklavier content
> among other things, go to:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@...
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@egroups.com
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://egroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> To visit Todd's family web site that contains some fun disklavier content
among other things, go to:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That
will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you
insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:

> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@...
>
>

Yamaha cannot support these "gray market" disklaviers for several reasons.  
Piano Bench gave you one very good one in that the piano is not made for the 
American market - the wood is not seasoned to withstand the extremes in 
humidity and dryness in a typical American home.

The biggest reason is UL approval.  Only the models made for the US have 
this.  If Yamaha USA were to support a non-UL approved instrument, the 
product liability would be enormous.  When an electronic instrument is UL 
approved, we know to what standards it is manufactured.  With these 
"Japanese" disklaviers, we do not.

You will get no technical support on "gray market" disklaviers.  Better to 
have customer's buy one made for the U.S. market.  BTW, I doubt you can 
change the language to English on the one you have.  It's all in the flash 
rom program.

Carol Beigel
Registered Piano Technician


>From: <johnsound@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@egroups.com
>To: disklavier@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [disklavier] Owners manual - older disklavier]]
>Date: 20 Jan 01 20:00:09 PST
>

>
>
>Hi Piano Bench,

They didn't design a
>completely different disklavier unit for Japan I don't believe. Even if it 
>is
>another model #.  I understand that the different language capabilities are 
>a
>menu choice even in the US models.
>I am astounded that they do not support this unit, solely from my 
>observation
>that it is to protect the US Yamaha dealers from any foriegn competition. 
>This
>seems unethical.
>     I sold this unit for a dealer I work with, yes, I feel obligated to 
>get my
>customer any info I can about it. If you know how to switch the menu to
>english from japanese, that would be a big start. There are many Japanese 
>made
>pianos coming into the states. If you have done this for any time, I assume
>that you have, you've seen the changes int the american/imported piano mix.
>It's a printed booklet, nothing compicated.  Whay can't they just sell me 
>one?
>  Why to I need to have a piano at all in order to buy a book?  Doesn't 
>this
>seem ulikely to you?  Do you have any suggestions beyond the company?
>thanks. john
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at 
>http://home.netscape.com/webmail
>
>To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
>To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, 
>send it to:
>disklavier-owner@egroups.com
>
>To reach our group's web site go to:
>http://egroups.com/group/disklavier
>
>To visit Todd's family web site that contains some fun disklavier content 
>among other things, go to:
>http://MuncyFamily.com
>
>THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, 
>go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That 
>will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you 
>insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
>Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
>disklavier-subscribe@...
>
>

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