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Elektron Musical Instruments

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SID Tables

SID Tables

2001-07-23 by bedpan cakewalk

Alright...

So I have had my sid a while and have messed a little bit with the tables. I 
have a basic isead of how they work, but I have yet to create what I am 
looking for. I have listened to older video game stuff by ron hubbard and am 
astounded.  My question is how in the heck does one pull this off. Is there 
a way to see those tables and learn from his techniques?

Also, I was looking around on www.sidsations.com and found a couple of 
tracks that really love (both done by erase):

http://www.sidstation.com/sidsound/sidsolo/Budokan.mp3
http://www.sidstation.com/sidsound/sidsolo/SillyLoop.mp3

Anyone know how to set up stuff like this?



matt.




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Re: [elektron] SID Tables

2001-07-23 by Corey Appleby

--- bedpan cakewalk <bedpan_cakewalk@...>
wrote:

>http://www.sidstation.com/sidsound/sidsolo/Budokan.mp3
>http://www.sidstation.com/sidsound/sidsolo/SillyLoop.mp3

> Anyone know how to set up stuff like this?

Both of those use patches from the Sidstation Ninja
patch bank.  Download it from www.sidstation.com and
take a look at the patches used (Budokan and Sillyloop
are the names :)

As for how hubbard did his stuff, I have some idea. 
But I'm still pretty much a tables newbie myself, and
wouldn't really know how to go about recreating it.  I
just recently got my first decent bassline programmed
using tables, and while I'm really happy with it, I'm
still trying to figure out how in the hell I did it.
:)

c.

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Re: [elektron] SID Tables

2001-07-23 by D.E

glad you enjoyed them!

thanks,

the e-man , aster of the niverse

It did take a while programming those tables . . I have messed a little bit
with a tracker in the old days so.. but just look at the tableeditor as a
sequencer going in the vertical direction , , start of with a simple melody
and try to understand the timing of the tables, you can do a 3 track drum
and noise patch with it.. or just a melody with a chord now and then..  If
you have any problem I\ufffdll try to help you.

Cheers,


Daniel
----- Original Message -----
From: bedpan cakewalk <bedpan_cakewalk@...>
To: <elektron-users@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 8:28 PM
Subject: [elektron] SID Tables


> Alright...
>
> So I have had my sid a while and have messed a little bit with the tables.
I
> have a basic isead of how they work, but I have yet to create what I am
> looking for. I have listened to older video game stuff by ron hubbard and
am
> astounded.  My question is how in the heck does one pull this off. Is
there
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> a way to see those tables and learn from his techniques?
>
> Also, I was looking around on www.sidsations.com and found a couple of
> tracks that really love (both done by erase):
>
> http://www.sidstation.com/sidsound/sidsolo/Budokan.mp3
> http://www.sidstation.com/sidsound/sidsolo/SillyLoop.mp3
>
> Anyone know how to set up stuff like this?
>
>
>
> matt.
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [elektron] SID Tables

2001-07-24 by shifty@gweep.net

with the sidstation, try making two parallel tables...make one
thats a short loop, e.g. 
+00
+03
+07
Loop 00
with speed of say, 6.  That will make a texture or background or context for
your sound to exist in.

Then make another one with a slower speed, like 12 (always try and
use speeds that relate to each other in some way)
Try to keep rhythm in mind....I've solo'd out some sidtune tracks to
reverse-engineer the tables they used, and often, they're quite simple,
like: +7 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0...just think about the rhythm...

(alternatively, you may consider triggering sync for 1/8 of the time, 
 as opposed to transposing)

If you get good at that, try making a third parallel table, that's really
slow, and contains a melody...something like Budokan's...The key here is
to not use a radical number of notes in every space....just spread out a 
few rhythmic, melodic changes.

Once you get a nice double/triple wavetable going, try playing it with
different notes, it can sound extremely beautiful!

Now, here's an advanced technique, I discovered playing with Hippel's tunes
in Future Composer: make two sets of your table, in both a minor and a major
version.  This is important because it will allow you to tranpose more
harmonically across the whole keyboard. e.g. one version has the minor
(0,3,7) arp, and another major (0,4,7).  Then, apply music theory...e.g.  if
your song is in G Major, use the major version of your wavetable patch when
trigger with notes G,C and D. Use the minor for A,B, and E.  Finally, make a
third version, so you can use F# for the diminished sound.  I recommend
this, because it can really provide harmonic space/color/variety/etc when
bouncing back and forth between major and minor chords.  a diminished
version of your wavetable will look like: 0,3,6.  If more people are
interested in this, I can make a complete mulit-octave chart of which values
are properly available in each version of your wavetables...


> So I have had my sid a while and have messed a little bit with the tables. I 
> have a basic isead of how they work, but I have yet to create what I am 
> looking for. I have listened to older video game stuff by ron hubbard and am 
> astounded.  My question is how in the heck does one pull this off. Is there 
> a way to see those tables and learn from his techniques?

try to solo channels using sidplay, write them to disk and analyze
with e.g. Cool Edit

-N

Re: SID Tables / advanced technique

2001-07-25 by step laub

hehe! this sounds very interresting. can you upload a soundfile of 
that technique in action? thanx! step

> Now, here's an advanced technique, I discovered playing with 
Hippel's tunes
> in Future Composer: make two sets of your table, in both a minor and 
a major
> version.  This is important because it will allow you to tranpose 
more
> harmonically across the whole keyboard. e.g. one version has the 
minor
> (0,3,7) arp, and another major (0,4,7).  Then, apply music 
theory...e.g.  if
> your song is in G Major, use the major version of your wavetable 
patch when
> trigger with notes G,C and D. Use the minor for A,B, and E.  
Finally, make a
> third version, so you can use F# for the diminished sound.  I 
recommend
> this, because it can really provide harmonic space/color/variety/etc 
when
> bouncing back and forth between major and minor chords.  a 
diminished
> version of your wavetable will look like: 0,3,6.  If more people are
> interested in this, I can make a complete mulit-octave chart of 
which values
> are properly available in each version of your wavetables...
> 
> 
> > So I have had my sid a while and have messed a little bit with the 
tables. I 
> > have a basic isead of how they work, but I have yet to create what 
I am 
> > looking for. I have listened to older video game stuff by ron 
hubbard and am 
> > astounded.  My question is how in the heck does one pull this off. 
Is there 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > a way to see those tables and learn from his techniques?
> 
> try to solo channels using sidplay, write them to disk and analyze
> with e.g. Cool Edit
> 
> -N

MD_changes

2001-07-27 by splank!

I was just playing around with the MD.
Tomorrow is the first Live Test.
Am I the first one to play on a big PA system?
Hehe, historical.

Well here is something for the NEXT OS.:
1. Midi
Very good Idea, that the whole Patterns can be triggered through Midi.
That makes writing songs with another Sequencer very easy.
BUT. The timing doesn\ufffdt work right. I mean, the MD has a little
problem with restarting the Pattern. You notice this when you
make a track on all 16 steps. The last step will not be played.
And when I set on 135 BPM on my MPC 2000, the MD has to be 135,4 BPM
but this is a normal problem I think.

2. Mute / Play
Well, It\ufffds very cool that the Mute is like a "mixer Mute".
That makes acess very direct.
BUT. Can\ufffdt you cange the fact, that Tracks can\ufffdt be played live,
when they are muted?
e.g. I have a Crash-Cymbal. I want to trigger it live like on a
Midi Keyboard. But it\ufffds not possible when the track is muted.
Hmm, I guess this is difficult. Because the Mute mutes the whole
channel like a Mixer....


Bye
Splank!

Re: SID Tables

2001-07-31 by thebats@optonline.net

--- In elektron-users@y..., "bedpan cakewalk" 
<bedpan_cakewalk@h...> wrote:

> I have listened to older video game stuff by Ron Hubbard

(no offense: it's ROB Hubbard -> Ron is that "Dionetics" guy! :)

> and am astounded.  My question is how in the heck
> does one pull this off. 

Adding to this question...

If "tables" are the best way to achieve a "Hubbard" like track, is it 
possible to create a decent length song with tables? (they seem 
to be limited in the amount of steps - the manual says "a 
maximum of 32 steps")

Is there a way to use sequencing software to trigger each 
oscillator independently (like tables can) ??? 
The way the three oscillators interacted with each other in the old 
C64 game tunes really shows the creativity of composers like 
Hubbard (muting & soloing tracks in SIDplay shows this quite 
well)

Re: [elektron] Re: SID Tables

2001-07-31 by shifty@gweep.net

Hello All!

I have uploaded a document to my web page entitled:
Some Musical Theory As It Applies to SidStation Wave-Tables

Please check it out and enjoy it and try some of the stuff.

BTW, if you find any mistakes, please e-mail me and I will
correct them!!!

Here is the URL:
http://www.gweep.net/~shifty/sidsta/chart.txt

-N
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > I have listened to older video game stuff by Ron Hubbard
> 
> (no offense: it's ROB Hubbard -> Ron is that "Dionetics" guy! :)
> 
> > and am astounded.  My question is how in the heck
> > does one pull this off.

[elektron] Re: SID Tables

2001-08-01 by the78king@yahoo.com

is there no way to capture certain waves from a .sid file and upload 
it to the sidstation via the midi link/  

newtron
www.mp3.com/newtron

Re: [elektron] Re: SID Tables

2001-08-01 by Dr. Whammo

I asked this question a long time ago...

>Is there a way to use sequencing software to trigger each
>oscillator independently (like tables can) ???
>The way the three oscillators interacted with each other in the old
>C64 game tunes really shows the creativity of composers like
>Hubbard (muting & soloing tracks in SIDplay shows this quite
>well)


For some reason, I dont think the SS has the internal OS code to handle this
sort of thing - and it seemed like I remember someone saying it wasnt
possible on the SS or something like that..

Anyone else have some more clues?

Mail-Order Monsters sound

2001-08-01 by Tonsil

Hey,
	I was wondering if anyone remembers the Electronic Arts Game 
'Mail-Order Monsters', and if so, the definitive flute patch used in 
the theme song. I would love to be able to get that sound on a Sid.

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Re: [elektron] Re: SID Tables

2001-08-01 by shifty@gweep.net

> is there no way to capture certain waves from a .sid file and upload 
> it to the sidstation via the midi link/  

That's an interesting idea. I know of no ready-made way.  However, perhaps
we could run sidplay in ASID mode, dump the sysex to a file and process it.
The processing would be...to organize the register writes into one group
for each oscillator...an extra would be to figure out the notes with the
code....
however, you wouldn't be able to get the actual tables this
way....basically, all of the tables were implemented slightly differently,
at the programmer's whim.  Of course, you may get lucky, and find sets of
sid tunes which were created with common editors, which would mean the
format is more or less available.  However, you'd have to write a custom
extractor/depacker for each editor...

-N

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