2014-02-04 by geektech207@...
I know a lot of this is painfully obvious to most of you, but I wanted
to really break it down for people because it's a very common question / frustration,
and there doesn't seem to be all of this information in one place and
truly spelled out.
There's an article on the web about how difficult it is to write an emax OS to floppy, and the author described the symptoms of the emax reading about 3 tracks / clicks in and then the LEDs flashing, and then a continual retry:
http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16724547
The author was questioning if the utilities worked, or if the OS images floating around were invalid. Reasonable question, so I wanted to clarify one way that I've successfully gotten OS images to write correctly.
I have tried EMX for DOS on an older desktop with a single internal floppy booting to Win98 DOS. This program appeared to work correctly. The disk would even validate after the write. It would format and write an OS without error, but when placed in the emax, the symptoms were the same as the article I linked to. Perhaps it works best in 386/486 machines with true 720K drive (instead of 1.44M), I'm not sure, but I have had absolutely ZERO success with this utility under ANY circumstances.
There's another program called EMAXUTIL which is simply a scaled down version of EMX (by the same author). Same story.
I have tried Omniflop / EMXP on a Pentium 3 laptop running XP which has an internal floppy bay. EMXP and Omniflop both interact with the disks and seem to work without error, but again, the emax ultimately will not boot. So beware of laptops, even if they seem to have an internal drive, it's not necessarily the same standard as a desktop internal drive. USB drives won't work, of course. That goes without saying.
The only winning combination I have had is with a Celeron desktop with 1.44 internal floppy running XP. Omniflop FDC and floppy disk drivers are both installed. Format the floppy using the "emax [standard]" parameters. Then use EMXP to write an OS file to a DD floppy. 1,2,3 head reads on the emax and then: SUCCESS! Emu Emax boots up correctly!
There's another "emax [1024 sector]" option in Omniflop. This format cannot have an OS written to it, so make sure to avoid it. Also, true DD floppies are no 100% necessary. The HD with tape over the hole CAN be successful with this method (maybe not viable in the long term, but it can work.)
The moral of the story is that, yes, it IS possible to use a PC to write an emax disk. It's not easy, but it's doable. It can very easily (and persistently) appear that your emax floppy is dead, dying, or out-of-spec with other drives, but that's not necessarily the case. Make sure you've got good floppies, PC drives, software, and technique before writing off your emax drives!
Some of this equipment and software I have used to successfully write Ensoniq disks, etc. and yet it still failed on the emax disks, so don't make the mistake of assuming that just because it's tended to work under similar circumstances that it will all work properly under this specific instance.
The symptoms in the article (three reads and then LED flash loop) seems to occur when the disk is ALMOST in spec and has an OS on it. ** I would be interested in knowing the precise technical reason why
this is occurring. Anyone know what the missing ingredient is?**
The emax behaves differently when a totally blank disk or an emax formatted disk without an OS is inserted. "Read Error!" error message can occur with a non-emax disk, and will have continual drive access. Where as an emax formatted disk with an OS will say "Loading Software" and have continual drive access. "Please Insert Disk" will occur when there's no drive (obviously).
A correctly written emax OS disk should load promptly, probably after just 3 head reads.
Also of note: You can format an HD disk without putting any tape over the hole when using the emax itself. The drive will write to and boot from an HD disk. It simply treats it as 720K (or 800K by emax standards) no matter what, unlike a PC drive that needs the hole to distinguish between 1.44M and 720K.
Good luck!!
2014-02-04 by niklas.ehrlin@...
Thanks for the useful information. If possible, I would gladly pay you a small fee for getting a working floppy with OS on it. Beats buying a desktop computer and go thru it all again. Perhaps you could start a new business?...;)
2014-02-05 by geektech207@...
If you live in the U.S. then I could probably manage that if you send me a couple disks and some postage in trade. If you're overseas then I don't really want to fill out a customs form, etc. Maybe someone more local to you has some OS disks, if that's the case. Anyone with a bootable emax should be able to create a working disk for you, and there's a fair amount of people on this mailing list.
No interest in starting a new business. Wouldn't feel right about it after all the free help / utilities that all this is based on. Free (vintage) love.
2014-02-05 by Windrum Scoggin
You know, I truly believe that is what this list is for..so we can help each other keep our aging (but beautiful sounding) EMU samplers alive.
BUT
This EMAX FDD is getting out of hand and becoming a right PITA isn't it?
Personally, if I
didn't t have an XP based PC running Omniflop with an internal FDD then I
would have completely ditched the FDD concept long ago...If you can't
make an OS disk for your EMAX, then transfer sounds to that floppy via a PC with EMXP, a floppy drive and Omniflop installed, that
will allow you to do this, then what is the point of having an FDD in
your EMAX? You will constantly be at the mercy of the rest of us on the
user forum in trying to make you disks and if our machines OS doesn't match yours we have even a bigger rabbit hole to climb out of
Even if we have the same OS, and we make you disks, whose to say that after we ship them to you, they will work?
I know that I personally have built a PC specifically to run EMXP and installed the Omniflop drivers as I am also using an Ensoniq EPS 16 plus and just have to have the ability to transfer the OS and sounds to floppys/flash/zip drives for my SCSI enabled EMU/Ensonqi samplers. That being said, I too have had a hell of a problem getting Emax OS to load onto disks and even if I did do it correctly, my Emax HD's own internal FDD is toast. It will read and write only disks that it can read and write due to it being off, somehow. I know this cause I tried to load OS disks Ted sent me and they wouldn't load so I handed them off to another fellow back up Ted's way who needed the OS disks and the disks Ted made for me that would not load on mine, loaded fine on his machine! That told me my machine had a bad FDD.
So my situation is I
1) have an EMAX HD with a bad HD and Floppy. ONly way I can get it to boot is using EMXP and CF cards then boot it up using the PCD 50B. So far, it works and I am happy.
2) My new Emax SE is on the way this week. If its floppy is good, I will try to use the above method as posed by geektech207 and use Omniflop and my PC to make a bootable SE OS disk. The internal PC FDD I am using is a Teac 235HF.
Here is a pdf to the specs
http://www.msc-ge.com/download/itmain/datasheets/teac/FD-235HF-C891.pdfHopefully, it will work. If it does, and the FDD in my arriving unit is NOT bad, then just PM me and I will try to make OS Floppy disk for anyone that wants one. The only issue is, EMU kept changing the OS for their EMAX's and it grows tiresome because from what I am reading here, people with a Plus OS Emax can't load an SE OS disks Made from an SE OS Emax, and vice versa...Ie You can't load a sound disk made from a machine with at different OS than the one you are on.... Correct ME if I am wrong Ted or Jammie? If this be the case we are all in quite the funk cause some of us have SCSI machines with Plus OS on them, some of us don't and those who have older EMAX running non Plus OS can9;t load sound disks saved to Plus OS disks.
That being said, I hope I am wrong cause my 1010 model with HD is running Emax Plus OS Rev 1.0 and I don't know if I can upgrade my SE model to this when it arrives, or not; OR if the SE OS will load disks from a Plus OS Rev 1.0 disk.
I know in my case it won't because my FDD on my HD 1010 model Emax is bad, anyway so no disk I make on that FDD will run on any other Emax that has a known good FDD, even if they are the same OS. Herein lies the dilemma of having bad FDD's in our Emax's. FDD's just suck.
Finding and original sectored FDD for the Emax itself seems to be a tightly held secret amongst the second hand parts guys. Route66 says he sells them, as does this guy here:
http://www.eprelectronics.com/store/E-mu-Accessories/MISC/Emu-EMAX-I-Floppy-Disk-Drive-p160.html
Most of the time, both these guys want too much or they are out of stock. I imagine if someone can get the part number off the FDD after purchasing one, they can simply find it elsewhere for a third of the price but being route 66 and EPR are mostly out of stock, they are probably having to find NOS (New Old Stock) drives themselves then simply jack up the price to us as a charge for doing the research that most of us could do on our own if we simply knew what we were looking for.
Now then, on Youtube, Retrosound installed and HxC floppy emulator in his unit. the Cost of the floppy emulator is about the same as an NOS FDD and quite frankly, I hate screwing with the FDD's on these Emax units. They are slow, tedious and break eventually...just like the crappy internal 20 MB HD did on my Emax when all I did was remove it when installing a PCD-50B SCSI card reader/writer.
So, IMHO I forgo the floppy cause I hate messing with them. Mine doesn't woke save to read and write disks that only MY Emax that wrote them can use and I am not sure I want to spend the money on another EMU Emax internal Floppy Disk Drive anymore when half of us can't even write a damned bootable floppy on our PC's cause most of us don't even have PC's with Floppy drives in them anymore!
Am I right or am I right?
Ha ha!
Tell ya what...If my SE 1000 unit comes in with a good FDD and I can make a good Bootable SE FDD using EMXP and Omniflop, and it loads and boots this my soon to arrive Emax SE 1000 up, I will make anyone an OS disks that want them, just PM me. No charge save for the cost of the floppy and shipping. I can't gurantee it will work on your machine if your FDD has doen what my HD 1010 FDD drive did but we can try.
I will do it till the damned FDD drive dies.
Then, i am finding another PCD 50B to install on my new unit or just
going HxC
I am really tired of the Emu FDD dilemma and eventually, I think the rest of you will grow tired of dealing with it too.
Cheers
windrumscoggin
at
gmail
I
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 3:06 AM,
<geektech207@...> wrote:
If you live in the U.S. then I could probably manage that if you send me a couple disks and some postage in trade. If you're overseas then I don't really want to fill out a customs form, etc. Maybe someone more local to you has some OS disks, if that's the case. Anyone with a bootable emax should be able to create a working disk for you, and there's a fair amount of people on this mailing list.
No interest in starting a new business. Wouldn't feel right about it after all the free help / utilities that all this is based on. Free (vintage) love.
--
Le Sociere Des Oscillateurs Mystere
2014-02-05 by niklas.ehrlin@...
Hi, and thanks for the offer! And I totally agree with you - I am no fan of the FDD and all the floppy-hassle, believe me. I seriously concider in just throw it out and go with the HxC. The only concern I have is that I dont know if the EMAX I have is ok otherwise (faulty internal HDD, and prob FDD) as I found it at the recycling station. So I hesitate a bit in investing 100 euro in a mashine that I dont know the status on.
But worst case, there are probably enough people out there in need of a HxC and EMAX parts, for me to recollect the 100 Euros. ;)
I guess you soon will see me starting a new thread regarding HxC installation and management...
2014-02-05 by geektech207@...
As an addendum to my first post, I've also seen "TIMEOUT ERROR" with a nonworking disk. I'm not sure the disk conditions that cause that as opposed to the other read errors though.
And as far as the frustrated replies goes:
FDD setups are no delight, that is a certainty. But like anything in life, it comes down to "How much do you want it?", and risk vs. reward.
Is the emax REALLY going to help your studio workflow, or help you write that song you are just dying to get out of your head? If you don't have a passion for troublesome vintage machines and the elusive 12-bit sound then maybe it's just best to hang it up and sell / donate it to someone that does and try to recoup whatever investment you made, as best as you can. Maybe some bandpass / overdrive VST on your emu Kontakt library would be just as good for your projects. And I don't mean that as a character judgment. Really.
Maybe it just ISN'T worth all the hassle. That's not for anyone to decide except for the end user on a case-by-case basis. I certainly can empathize with anyone with a non-working machine, because I have had them in various forms. Sometimes it's just not worth the headache, and it's time to accept the situation and just get on with making the music.
But at least we've got this mailing list. We've got worldwide help and parts at our disposal, and we have new technology like the HxC to get the most out of our vintage gear. And if you do decide to go separate ways with your old equipment then I can guarantee someone else out there is dying to fork over some $$$ to take it off your hands. That's the plus side.
2014-02-05 by Keith Gould
General emax comment/ fan mail.
Me- emax 1 keyboard owner since 1998. Most of sample library stolen! Now disk drive broke but I have a replacement drive I will fit.
1) having looked at for years upgrading the floppy drive/SCSI/zip I conclude /agree it's prob not worth the hassle! I will stick with disks and buy expensive second hand ones that may or may not play on my machine
2) the first beauty of the emax IMHO is the interface- The clunky inaccurate slider the rubbery buttons. (The short sample time and memory you MUST get the most of.) The keys, after touch , mid, pitch, pedals and assignable controllers. The arpeggiator which always loses me several hours playing..
(Does anyone use the sequencer though!)
Sorry if rack emax users miss out on this fun, you still get the sound
So faster, more memory, more workflow...? it's like a classic car which is a bit slow but sounds awesome.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On 5 Feb 2014, at 17:31, <geektech207@...> wrote:
>
> As an addendum to my first post, I've also seen "TIMEOUT ERROR" with a nonworking disk. I'm not sure the disk conditions that cause that as opposed to the other read errors though.
>
> And as far as the frustrated replies goes:
>
> FDD setups are no delight, that is a certainty. But like anything in life, it comes down to "How much do you want it?", and risk vs. reward.
>
> Is the emax REALLY going to help your studio workflow, or help you write that song you are just dying to get out of your head? If you don't have a passion for troublesome vintage machines and the elusive 12-bit sound then maybe it's just best to hang it up and sell / donate it to someone that does and try to recoup whatever investment you made, as best as you can. Maybe some bandpass / overdrive VST on your emu Kontakt library would be just as good for your projects. And I don't mean that as a character judgment. Really.
>
> Maybe it just ISN'T worth all the hassle. That's not for anyone to decide except for the end user on a case-by-case basis. I certainly can empathize with anyone with a non-working machine, because I have had them in various forms. Sometimes it's just not worth the headache, and it's time to accept the situation and just get on with making the music.
>
> But at least we've got this mailing list. We've got worldwide help and parts at our disposal, and we have new technology like the HxC to get the most out of our vintage gear. And if you do decide to go separate ways with your old equipment then I can guarantee someone else out there is dying to fork over some $$$ to take it off your hands. That's the plus side.
>
>
2014-02-05 by Windrum Scoggin
If you power on cold & boot the Emax and it says NO OS, insert Disk!
then chances are you just need an OS disk to boot it and once its booted
you can check the rest of the machine out to see if its OK elsewhere.
;If I can make a floppy
that will boot my soon to be arriving SE 1000 via Omniflop then assuredly it will
boot yours as well as long as your FDD is good.
I'll let you know and if it does work
then assuredly, I can make an FDD for you too
and I will ship it off to you in europe.
No worries about customs forms, we fill them out all day
long here at my day job
Cheers
Greg
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 8:34 AM,
<niklas.ehrlin@...> wrote:
Hi, and thanks for the offer! And I totally agree with you - I am no fan of the FDD and all the floppy-hassle, believe me. I seriously concider in just throw it out and go with the HxC. The only concern I have is that I dont know if the EMAX I have is ok otherwise (faulty internal HDD, and prob FDD) as I found it at the recycling station. So I hesitate a bit in investing 100 euro in a mashine that I dont know the status on.
But worst case, there are probably enough people out there in need of a HxC and EMAX parts, for me to recollect the 100 Euros. ;)
I guess you soon will see me starting a new thread regarding HxC installation and management...
--
Le Sociere Des Oscillateurs Mystere
2014-02-05 by jammie
he said london canada so he is in canada not
europe
as for customs there is not any on a value less
than £20 in uk and $20 us
a floppy disk is £1` about 2 mins work its more
todo with postage than anything else
also many problems is from mis aligned heads you
could save load format a disk on a old floppy drive give it to some one else and
it wont boot
as me and ted do ours on brand new slim floppy
drives the heads are aligned
but it would be cheaper postage wise as a
intenational letter will cost about £8 uk to canada
but its really easy to make floppies been doing it
for years with emxp
i dont understand all the problems people have its
easy its allk in the emxp documentation it works period
the worst trhing apple ever did was drop floppy
support might not be good for new stuff but there is a heck of a lot of stuff
still using floppies
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 6:05
PM
Subject: Re: [emax] RE: Emax OS creation
primer
If you power on cold & boot the Emax and it says NO OS,
insert Disk!
then chances are you just need an OS disk to boot it and once its
booted
you can check the rest of the machine out to see if its OK
elsewhere.
If I can make a floppy
that will boot my soon to be arriving SE 1000 via Omniflop then assuredly
it will
boot yours as well as long as your FDD is good.
I'll let you know and if it does work
then assuredly, I can make an FDD for you too
and I will ship it off to you in europe.
No worries about customs forms, we fill them out all day
long here at my day job
Cheers
Greg
No virus found in this
message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus
Database: 3684/7062 - Release Date: 02/04/14
2014-02-05 by Ted Summers
First- let me address this whole question of OS's.
It seems some are making this WAY too complicated.
Emax 3.2 will boot any Emax whether it has SCSI, SE or not.
Your Extra features just won't be there.
But Emax will still boot.
Therefore, as a STANDBY test OS disk, this is the tried and true to have a couple copies of.
Emax OS 1.0 HD - added support for SCSI - requires SCSI is installed, won't use SE as the support for it isn't there...
Emax OS 1.1 HD - added support for SCSI - requires SCSI is installed, won't use SE as the support for it isn't there...
Won't boot a NON-SCSI Emax
Emax OS 1.0 SE - added support for SE - requires SE update is installed, won't see SCSI as the support for it isn't there...
Emax OS 1.1 SE - added support for SE - requires SE update is installed, won't see SCSI as the support for it isn't there...
Won't boot a NON-SE Emax
The above versions can be confusing, so I will always-
1) Update the machine to SE, so now SE OS or not is no longer a factor...
-if it's already SE, no harm / no foul, the machine simply boots.
2) Where it doesn't have SCSI this is easy to tell from quick visual inspection, and if not there- no point in even attempting to boot a SCIS OS>
3) Add SCSI - I will add SCSI to any rev2 or rev3 board sent to me (for fee of course)
- now the Hardware is fully updated with all available option capabilities.
Regards Emax OS with SE support- Some have not applied the SE Upate, and honestly I don't understand why.
The ONLY thing the SE Update disk does to the machine is update a few bits in the Parameter EEPROM, allowing the SE features to work and to boot with an SE disk.
The moment you boot with a NON-SE OS, your Emax for all intensive purposes is like it doesn't have SE.
The OS on the disk is what has the extra features added in...not the machine.
Again --to be clear-- an SE EMAX can still boot a NON-SE OS.
Emax OS 1.1 SE + HD - requires SE update and SCSI is installed, so you have almost all available Emax features.
Last released verision
Emax Plus OS 1.0 SE + HD - requires SE update and SCSI is installed, added ability to have additional SCSI drives besides ID 0.
An Emax that has both SCSI update and SE Update applied will be able to use / boot ANY of the available OS's.
-----------------NEXT TOPIC---------------------------------
As to FDD (floppy disk drive)- where you have a flash drive and don't want to use a FDD, more power to you.
But if you ever need to diagnose issues where you think there is a SCSI / drive issue and Emax isn't booting and now don't have a floppy to boot from- you will be stuck.
...browsing the forums again for solutions / help...
-----------------NEXT TOPIC---------------------------------
As to the PC "not working to make disks" dilemma- I have successfully used EMXP, EMX, EMAXUTIL on 3 different PC's with completely different floppy drives.
An 700Mhz VIA CPU - (Intel clone) with VIA chipset mobo, sony floppy drive
An 1.5Ghz Pentium 4 / Celeron w/Chaintek mobo, teac floppy drive
An 2.6Ghz Pentium 4 w/MSI mobo, mitsumi floppy drive
They all worked, I got all parts used, and this is variation of chipset and processor and floppy drive that makes me believe the vast majority will work properly.
I've really not seen the problems described, using a PC to make disks...
Where your Emax has the bad floppy drive, your PC can be making all the disks correctly and it won't matter a bit as you don't have a good drive in the Emax.
It can also be a bad Floppy Controller chip too... WD1772 can be bad (though rare for it to happen), or the supporting circuit.
Thus I always hook up my test "known-good" floppy to verify working order of the floppy circuit when I go to evaluate an Emax board sent to me.
Once I know Emax floppy circuit is working, I install Slim Floppy in my units because
1) They are readily available
2) They are inexpensive (I have 2 spares sitting on the shelf to replace my current drive in event they go bad).
Total cost for JM215A adapter and 2 slim floppy drives (1 installed + spare) - typically less than $25.
That's my take.
So hopefully this whole floppy / OS conversation (rant or whatever) can be put to rest now...
-Ted
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Windrum Scoggin
<windrumscoggin@...> wrote:
You know, I truly believe that is what this list is for..so we can help each other keep our aging (but beautiful sounding) EMU samplers alive.
BUT
This EMAX FDD is getting out of hand and becoming a right PITA isn't it?
Personally, if I
didn't t have an XP based PC running Omniflop with an internal FDD then I
would have completely ditched the FDD concept long ago...If you can't
make an OS disk for your EMAX, then transfer sounds to that floppy via a PC with EMXP, a floppy drive and Omniflop installed, that
will allow you to do this, then what is the point of having an FDD in
your EMAX? You will constantly be at the mercy of the rest of us on the
user forum in trying to make you disks and if our machines OS doesn't match yours we have even a bigger rabbit hole to climb out of
Even if we have the same OS, and we make you disks, whose to say that after we ship them to you, they will work?
I know that I personally have built a PC specifically to run EMXP and installed the Omniflop drivers as I am also using an Ensoniq EPS 16 plus and just have to have the ability to transfer the OS and sounds to floppys/flash/zip drives for my SCSI enabled EMU/Ensonqi samplers. That being said, I too have had a hell of a problem getting Emax OS to load onto disks and even if I did do it correctly, my Emax HD's own internal FDD is toast. It will read and write only disks that it can read and write due to it being off, somehow. I know this cause I tried to load OS disks Ted sent me and they wouldn't load so I handed them off to another fellow back up Ted's way who needed the OS disks and the disks Ted made for me that would not load on mine, loaded fine on his machine! That told me my machine had a bad FDD.
So my situation is I
1) have an EMAX HD with a bad HD and Floppy. ONly way I can get it to boot is using EMXP and CF cards then boot it up using the PCD 50B. So far, it works and I am happy.
2) My new Emax SE is on the way this week. If its floppy is good, I will try to use the above method as posed by geektech207 and use Omniflop and my PC to make a bootable SE OS disk. The internal PC FDD I am using is a Teac 235HF.
Here is a pdf to the specs
http://www.msc-ge.com/download/itmain/datasheets/teac/FD-235HF-C891.pdfHopefully, it will work. If it does, and the FDD in my arriving unit is NOT bad, then just PM me and I will try to make OS Floppy disk for anyone that wants one. The only issue is, EMU kept changing the OS for their EMAX's and it grows tiresome because from what I am reading here, people with a Plus OS Emax can't load an SE OS disks Made from an SE OS Emax, and vice versa...Ie You can't load a sound disk made from a machine with at different OS than the one you are on.... Correct ME if I am wrong Ted or Jammie? If this be the case we are all in quite the funk cause some of us have SCSI machines with Plus OS on them, some of us don't and those who have older EMAX running non Plus OS can't load sound disks saved to Plus OS disks.
That being said, I hope I am wrong cause my 1010 model with HD is running Emax Plus OS Rev 1.0 and I don't know if I can upgrade my SE model to this when it arrives, or not; OR if the SE OS will load disks from a Plus OS Rev 1.0 disk.
I know in my case it won't because my FDD on my HD 1010 model Emax is bad, anyway so no disk I make on that FDD will run on any other Emax that has a known good FDD, even if they are the same OS. Herein lies the dilemma of having bad FDD's in our Emax's. FDD's just suck.
Finding and original sectored FDD for the Emax itself seems to be a tightly held secret amongst the second hand parts guys. Route66 says he sells them, as does this guy here:
http://www.eprelectronics.com/store/E-mu-Accessories/MISC/Emu-EMAX-I-Floppy-Disk-Drive-p160.html
Most of the time, both these guys want too much or they are out of stock. I imagine if someone can get the part number off the FDD after purchasing one, they can simply find it elsewhere for a third of the price but being route 66 and EPR are mostly out of stock, they are probably having to find NOS (New Old Stock) drives themselves then simply jack up the price to us as a charge for doing the research that most of us could do on our own if we simply knew what we were looking for.
Now then, on Youtube, Retrosound installed and HxC floppy emulator in his unit. the Cost of the floppy emulator is about the same as an NOS FDD and quite frankly, I hate screwing with the FDD's on these Emax units. They are slow, tedious and break eventually...just like the crappy internal 20 MB HD did on my Emax when all I did was remove it when installing a PCD-50B SCSI card reader/writer.
So, IMHO I forgo the floppy cause I hate messing with them. Mine doesn't woke save to read and write disks that only MY Emax that wrote them can use and I am not sure I want to spend the money on another EMU Emax internal Floppy Disk Drive anymore when half of us can't even write a damned bootable floppy on our PC's cause most of us don't even have PC's with Floppy drives in them anymore!
Am I right or am I right?
Ha ha!
Tell ya what...If my SE 1000 unit comes in with a good FDD and I can make a good Bootable SE FDD using EMXP and Omniflop, and it loads and boots this my soon to arrive Emax SE 1000 up, I will make anyone an OS disks that want them, just PM me. No charge save for the cost of the floppy and shipping. I can't gurantee it will work on your machine if your FDD has doen what my HD 1010 FDD drive did but we can try.
I will do it till the damned FDD drive dies.
Then, i am finding another PCD 50B to install on my new unit or just
going HxC
I am really tired of the Emu FDD dilemma and eventually, I think the rest of you will grow tired of dealing with it too.
Cheers
windrumscoggin
at
gmail
I
2014-02-05 by geektech207@...
Thanks for the clarification Ted, and I don't mean to sound argumentative with a regular poster, but I -have- seen issues with OS creation, and I am not the only one, as proven by the link in the original post. Simply put, some methodology DOES NOT necessarily work, even though you personally might have had unwavering past successes. Chalk this up to borderline failing equipment or end user ignorance, but I was sharing a methodology that worked for me personally, when all other potential methods had been failing. I hope others can achieve the same success.
As always, your mileage and experience may vary.
2014-02-05 by geektech207@...
I think it's too simple to say, "EMXP works period." It's a great program (Thanks e-synthesist!), but it's not the only part in the chain. Omniflop has to be configured correctly, and just because you have a computer / floppy drive that works with Omniflop doesn't guarantee you a working disk. Worse yet, EMXP can tell you that it successfully completed the operation, yet the disk isn't valid. There's just too many variables to claim that people are stupid for not being able to pull off OS creation straight out-of-the-gate.
Not everyone leaves and breathes vintage machines and knows all the little sniggles. Some people just grabbed a cheap machine at a flea market and are trying to get it to work with as little effort as possible.
---In emax@yahoogroups.com, <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
he said london canada so he is in canada not
europe
as for customs there is not any on a value less
than £20 in uk and $20 us
a floppy disk is £1` about 2 mins work its more
todo with postage than anything else
also many problems is from mis aligned heads you
could save load format a disk on a old floppy drive give it to some one else and
it wont boot
as me and ted do ours on brand new slim floppy
drives the heads are aligned
but it would be cheaper postage wise as a
intenational letter will cost about £8 uk to canada
but its really easy to make floppies been doing it
for years with emxp
i dont understand all the problems people have its
easy its allk in the emxp documentation it works period
the worst trhing apple ever did was drop floppy
support might not be good for new stuff but there is a heck of a lot of stuff
still using floppies
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 6:05
PM
Subject: Re: [emax] RE: Emax OS creation
primer
If you power on cold & boot the Emax and it says NO OS,
insert Disk!
then chances are you just need an OS disk to boot it and once its
booted
you can check the rest of the machine out to see if its OK
elsewhere.
If I can make a floppy
that will boot my soon to be arriving SE 1000 via Omniflop then assuredly
it will
boot yours as well as long as your FDD is good.
I'll let you know and if it does work
then assuredly, I can make an FDD for you too
and I will ship it off to you in europe.
No worries about customs forms, we fill them out all day
long here at my day job
Cheers
Greg
No virus found in this
message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus
Database: 3684/7062 - Release Date: 02/04/14
2014-02-05 by jammie
emxp does work period
so does omniflop but you are right its the setting up that people fail on
but so many people never read the pdf docs on what your supposed to do i have had to create video presentations so that people can see the step by step instructions to do it right
the computer is only as good as the person using it
and most problems are user based
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: geektech207@...
To: emax@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 7:39 PM
Subject: [emax] RE: Emax OS creation primer
I think it's too simple to say, "EMXP works period." It's a great program (Thanks e-synthesist!), but it's not the only part in the chain. Omniflop has to be configured correctly, and just because you have a computer / floppy drive that works with Omniflop doesn't guarantee you a working disk. Worse yet, EMXP can tell you that it successfully completed the operation, yet the disk isn't valid. There's just too many variables to claim that people are stupid for not being able to pull off OS creation straight out-of-the-gate.
Not everyone leaves and breathes vintage machines and knows all the little sniggles. Some people just grabbed a cheap machine at a flea market and are trying to get it to work with as little effort as possible.
---In emax@yahoogroups.com, <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
he said london canada so he is in canada not europe
as for customs there is not any on a value less than £20 in uk and $20 us
a floppy disk is £1` about 2 mins work its more todo with postage than anything else
also many problems is from mis aligned heads you could save load format a disk on a old floppy drive give it to some one else and it wont boot
as me and ted do ours on brand new slim floppy drives the heads are aligned
but it would be cheaper postage wise as a intenational letter will cost about £8 uk to canada
but its really easy to make floppies been doing it for years with emxp
i dont understand all the problems people have its easy its allk in the emxp documentation it works period
the worst trhing apple ever did was drop floppy support might not be good for new stuff but there is a heck of a lot of stuff still using floppies
----- Original Message -----
From: Windrum Scoggin
To: emax@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [emax] RE: Emax OS creation primer
If you power on cold & boot the Emax and it says NO OS, insert Disk!
then chances are you just need an OS disk to boot it and once its booted
you can check the rest of the machine out to see if its OK elsewhere.
If I can make a floppy
that will boot my soon to be arriving SE 1000 via Omniflop then assuredly it will
boot yours as well as long as your FDD is good.
I'll let you know and if it does work
then assuredly, I can make an FDD for you too
and I will ship it off to you in europe.
No worries about customs forms, we fill them out all day
long here at my day job
Cheers
Greg
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 8:34 AM, <niklas.ehrlin@...> wrote:
Hi, and thanks for the offer! And I totally agree with you - I am no fan of the FDD and all the floppy-hassle, believe me. I seriously concider in just throw it out and go with the HxC. The only concern I have is that I dont know if the EMAX I have is ok otherwise (faulty internal HDD, and prob FDD) as I found it at the recycling station. So I hesitate a bit in investing 100 euro in a mashine that I dont know the status on.
But worst case, there are probably enough people out there in need of a HxC and EMAX parts, for me to recollect the 100 Euros. ;)
I guess you soon will see me starting a new thread regarding HxC installation and management...
--
Le Sociere Des Oscillateurs Mystere
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7062 - Release Date: 02/04/14
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7065 - Release Date: 02/05/142014-02-05 by Scott Stanley
100% agree with Jammie here. RTFM for both omniflop and EMXP. It took me about 3 failed attempts before I finally figured out what I was doing wrong with omniflop.
Sent from my iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 3:26 PM, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> emxp does work period
>
> so does omniflop but you are right its the setting up that people fail on
>
> but so many people never read the pdf docs on what your supposed to do i have had to create video presentations so that people can see the step by step instructions to do it right
>
> the computer is only as good as the person using it
>
> and most problems are user based
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: geektech207@...
> To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 7:39 PM
> Subject: [emax] RE: Emax OS creation primer
>
>
> I think it's too simple to say, "EMXP works period." It's a great program (Thanks e-synthesist!), but it's not the only part in the chain. Omniflop has to be configured correctly, and just because you have a computer / floppy drive that works with Omniflop doesn't guarantee you a working disk. Worse yet, EMXP can tell you that it successfully completed the operation, yet the disk isn't valid. There's just too many variables to claim that people are stupid for not being able to pull off OS creation straight out-of-the-gate.
>
>
>
> Not everyone leaves and breathes vintage machines and knows all the little sniggles. Some people just grabbed a cheap machine at a flea market and are trying to get it to work with as little effort as possible.
>
>
>
> ---In emax@yahoogroups.com, <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
>
> he said london canada so he is in canada not europe
>
> as for customs there is not any on a value less than £20 in uk and $20 us
>
> a floppy disk is £1` about 2 mins work its more todo with postage than anything else
>
> also many problems is from mis aligned heads you could save load format a disk on a old floppy drive give it to some one else and it wont boot
>
> as me and ted do ours on brand new slim floppy drives the heads are aligned
>
> but it would be cheaper postage wise as a intenational letter will cost about £8 uk to canada
>
> but its really easy to make floppies been doing it for years with emxp
>
> i dont understand all the problems people have its easy its allk in the emxp documentation it works period
>
> the worst trhing apple ever did was drop floppy support might not be good for new stuff but there is a heck of a lot of stuff still using floppies
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Windrum Scoggin
> To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [emax] RE: Emax OS creation primer
>
>
> If you power on cold & boot the Emax and it says NO OS, insert Disk!
> then chances are you just need an OS disk to boot it and once its booted
> you can check the rest of the machine out to see if its OK elsewhere.
>
>
> If I can make a floppy
> that will boot my soon to be arriving SE 1000 via Omniflop then assuredly it will
> boot yours as well as long as your FDD is good.
> I'll let you know and if it does work
> then assuredly, I can make an FDD for you too
> and I will ship it off to you in europe.
> No worries about customs forms, we fill them out all day
> long here at my day job
> Cheers
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 8:34 AM, <niklas.ehrlin@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, and thanks for the offer! And I totally agree with you - I am no fan of the FDD and all the floppy-hassle, believe me. I seriously concider in just throw it out and go with the HxC. The only concern I have is that I dont know if the EMAX I have is ok otherwise (faulty internal HDD, and prob FDD) as I found it at the recycling station. So I hesitate a bit in investing 100 euro in a mashine that I dont know the status on.
>
> But worst case, there are probably enough people out there in need of a HxC and EMAX parts, for me to recollect the 100 Euros. ;)
>
> I guess you soon will see me starting a new thread regarding HxC installation and management...
>
>
>
>
> --
> Le Sociere Des Oscillateurs Mystere
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7062 - Release Date: 02/04/14
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7065 - Release Date: 02/05/14
>
>
2014-02-05 by esynthesist@...
I'd like to add that in some rare cases the calibration differences between the Emax floppy
drive and the PC floppy drive can simply be too big. If that's true, both
machines will work fine and give no errors as long as they use floppy
disks created on their own floppy drives: the Emax on its own drive, and the PC on its own drive.
When I was working with
Jason (creator of OmniFlop) to refine the Emax support in OmniFlop, I remember we were
struggling with the parameters that had to be set by Jason in the
OmniFlop driver. I was using multiple Emax and Emax-II samplers to test beta versions of OmniFlop and for a while we had the problem that disks created by OmniFlop worked fine on one Emax sampler but not on the other one. Jason has been investigating some low level "disk maps" of floppy disks created on the samplers themselves and he has tried to define his driver's parameters in such a way that it worked for all the Emax samplers I used during these tests. Once we succeeded, the Emax support was officially released in OmniFlop (the 80*2*10*512 one, the other one with 5*1024 bytes is wrong).
So it seems that Emax floppy drives - especially the old original ones - can differ in calibration quite extensively.
As other members have suggested: once someone is sure he/she is doing the things 100 pct correctly (as described in the manuals), but the problem still occurs, then it's strongly recommended to use either another floppy drive in the Emax (like the slim ones) /or using other floppy disks (and make sure DD disks are used, not "taped" HD ones).
///E-Synthesist
2014-02-06 by Windrum Scoggin
In regards to Geektech's reply: "Is the emax REALLY going to help your studio workflow, or help you write that song you are just dying to get out of your head? If you don't have a passion for troublesome vintage machines and the elusive 12-bit sound then maybe it's just best to hang it up and sell / donate it to someone that does and try to recoup whatever investment you made, as best as you can.";
Bottom line, this machine is worth it to me but only in as much as I can update it with HxC from Lotharek or find another PCD-50B and drop it in. It saves the hassle of having to deal with FDD's and old 20 MB noisy as the day is long SCSI hard drives that fail when you do as much as bump the stand the Emax is sitting on. If anything the modern upgrade to the memory storage platform on new machines has improved while sound quality on a lot of romplers and synths has gone to shite...You just can't replace the EMU sound with anything modern that I have come across and I have been buying synths and samplers since 1981.
As far as using a softsynth as opposed to a hardware sampler as opposed to a whatever...in the end, its how good the music you write is, that matters. If you write crap it doesn't matter if you use a wall full of modular analogs and all the best SSL consoles, your music still sucks.......If you want to just mess around and have those old school DM sounds on a sampler that was used by them back in the day, and MUST have the machines they used, then there is no substitute to the EII or Emax sound. If you want to kind of get close to a 'general 80's vibe' ;and use something that has that vintage flavor and you don't have a need to sample and import your own sounds, UVI Emulation I and II will do you just fine within your DAW.
But IMHO, If you want to use the equipment used back in the 80's to make music today that sounds like the 80's, You NEED the real deal when it comes to the EMU sound. With Analogs, a different story. I can get my Subphatty to sound like my old Moog Source but I can't get Kontakt to sound like an EMU Emax, No way, no how....
If you are a younger person, writing music that is retro in nature, and want to send us old timers back to nostalia land with your new songs, you are gonna have to use gear from the era we grew up in...or something that you cannot simply tell the difference with (again, My DSI Mopho can mimic and Dave Smith (Sequential Circuit) Pro-1 from 1982 pretty darned well) .
I venture to say if you are not of the age (40 YO plus) to which you can remember what a Emulator II and Emax cost brand new, then you won't have the appreciation, or wherewithall to see it through and stick to your guns until you get the damned thing working--- cause to me, finding an Emax for 125$ US (inlcuding shipping mind you!) is worth the effort to get it running again. No VST can do what it can do and its sounds like an SP12
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 9:31 AM,
<geektech207@...> wrote:
As an addendum to my first post, I've also seen "TIMEOUT ERROR" with a nonworking disk. I'm not sure the disk conditions that cause that as opposed to the other read errors though.
And as far as the frustrated replies goes:
FDD setups are no delight, that is a certainty. But like anything in life, it comes down to "How much do you want it?", and risk vs. reward.
Is the emax REALLY going to help your studio workflow, or help you write that song you are just dying to get out of your head? If you don't have a passion for troublesome vintage machines and the elusive 12-bit sound then maybe it's just best to hang it up and sell / donate it to someone that does and try to recoup whatever investment you made, as best as you can. Maybe some bandpass / overdrive VST on your emu Kontakt library would be just as good for your projects. And I don't mean that as a character judgment. Really.
Maybe it just ISN'T worth all the hassle. That's not for anyone to decide except for the end user on a case-by-case basis. I certainly can empathize with anyone with a non-working machine, because I have had them in various forms. Sometimes it's just not worth the headache, and it's time to accept the situation and just get on with making the music.
But at least we've got this mailing list. We';ve got worldwide help and parts at our disposal, and we have new technology like the HxC to get the most out of our vintage gear. And if you do decide to go separate ways with your old equipment then I can guarantee someone else out there is dying to fork over some $$$ to take it off your hands. That's the plus side.
--
Le Sociere Des Oscillateurs Mystere
2014-02-06 by Windrum Scoggin
Thanks again for your informative post Ted. I have now copied and pasted it to a word document and attached it to the back of my EMAX Version 2.0 Owners Manual/EMAX SE SCSI PORT RETROFIT/EMAX SE UPGRADE MANUAL
so I can reference it instead of asking the same questions over and over again due to my aging over 40 plus memory banks failing...my problem is I will forget that I put it in the back of the manual....then ask the same stupid questions over again on the forum, only to annoy Ted!
:)
We need a search topic matter function on this forum but thats another story.
I agree that most of the time the problems we encounter are due to end user headspace and timing because in my particular case, it took for my numbskull to figure out I had issues with EMXP and EXP writing disks ONLY because of the fact that MY Emax FDD was just plain bad.
I scratched my head just reading product lit for the PCD 50B jumper setting for setting SCSI ID 0! No kidding..
When I could not get my EMAX HD to boot off the SCSI PCD-50B I bought I had to send the board and the PCD to Ted thinking I jacked something up only to find out that I had simply set the Jumper on the PCD wrong.
Such is life. You learn by trial and error.
If you don't tear these babies apart and troubleshoot them regularly, you just won't know what to look for. Thats why when my shit breaks, I just send it to someone that can troubleshoot it properly.
I do HVAC controls using Bactalk and Alerton protocol here at work, day in and day out and know it well so people come to me when we have programming issues. Its what I am paid to do. That doesn't mean I am an expert in everything computerized or electronic. I I were THAT good then why the hell did I let something as inane as a jumper setting on a PCD screw me up? Cause I didn';t have experience working on EMAX units like Ted does, that is why....
We are very lucky we have an expert on this forum by the manner of Ted (and I am not just saying this to kiss anyone's butt) but Ted knows his Emax shizola so thank YOU Ted for your continued input and expertise.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 11:39 AM,
<geektech207@...>; wrote:
I think it's too simple to say, "EMXP works period." ; It's a great program (Thanks e-synthesist!), but it's not the only part in the chain. Omniflop has to be configured correctly, and just because you have a computer / floppy drive that works with Omniflop doesn't guarantee you a working disk. Worse yet, EMXP can tell you that it successfully completed the operation, yet the disk isn't valid. There's just too many variables to claim that people are stupid for not being able to pull off OS creation straight out-of-the-gate.
Not everyone leaves and breathes vintage machines and knows all the little sniggles. Some people just grabbed a cheap machine at a flea market and are trying to get it to work with as little effort as possible.
---In
emax@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
he said london canada so he is in canada not
europe
as for customs there is not any on a value less
than £20 in uk and $20 us
a floppy disk is £1` about 2 mins work its more
todo with postage than anything else
also many problems is from mis aligned heads you
could save load format a disk on a old floppy drive give it to some one else and
it wont boot
as me and ted do ours on brand new slim floppy
drives the heads are aligned
but it would be cheaper postage wise as a
intenational letter will cost about £8 uk to canada
but its really easy to make floppies been doing it
for years with emxp
i dont understand all the problems people have its
easy its allk in the emxp documentation it works period
the worst trhing apple ever did was drop floppy
support might not be good for new stuff but there is a heck of a lot of stuff
still using floppies
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 6:05
PM
Subject: Re: [emax] RE: Emax OS creation
primer
If you power on cold & boot the Emax and it says NO OS,
insert Disk!
then chances are you just need an OS disk to boot it and once its
booted
you can check the rest of the machine out to see if its OK
elsewhere.
If I can make a floppy
that will boot my soon to be arriving SE 1000 via Omniflop then assuredly
it will
boot yours as well as long as your FDD is good.
I'll let you know and if it does work
then assuredly, I can make an FDD for you too
and I will ship it off to you in europe.
No worries about customs forms, we fill them out all day
long here at my day job
Cheers
Greg
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 8:34 AM,
<niklas.ehrlin@...> wrote:
Hi, and thanks for the offer! And I totally agree with you - I am no fan
of the FDD and all the floppy-hassle, believe me. I seriously concider in
just throw it out and go with the HxC. The only concern I have is that I
dont know if the EMAX I have is ok otherwise (faulty internal HDD, and prob
FDD) as I found it at the recycling station. So I hesitate a bit in
investing 100 euro in a mashine that I dont know the status on.
But worst case, there are probably enough people out there in need of a
HxC and EMAX parts, for me to recollect the 100 Euros. ;)
I guess you soon will see me starting a new thread regarding HxC
installation and management...
--
Le
Sociere Des Oscillateurs Mystere No virus found in this
message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus
Database: 3684/7062 - Release Date: 02/04/14
--
Le Sociere Des Oscillateurs Mystere