EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

> SampleTekk is proud to present yet another fine piano available as a
> DirectDownload.
> That means that you buy the Piano, and then instantly get a link from
> where you can download your samples.
> Beats UPS and Fedex but requires a fast line....
>
>
> The Steiny D is a specially designed concert grand that uses samples
> from the Black Grand session. The sampleset has been taken down in size
> to make it downloadable.
> The Steiny D has 8/8/8 velocity layers, 8 samples recorded pedal up, 8
> pedal down and 8 releasesamples per recorded note.
> The instrument used for the Steiny D was a Steinway D Hamburg concert
> grand.
>
>
How can you say that it is sampled with 8 level of velocity!!!
Have you ever tried to play 8 level of different velocity with accuracy and 
consistancy on a piano for real?
All these piano with 8 level of velocity are scam. they are sampled with 2 
or worse only 1 level of velocity and everything is done with Wavelabs or 
Soundforge. Some maybe have 4 REAL level of velocity but no more.
Just listen one of these piano sample at the maximum level of velocity, like 
the Post ones, and you will see that it is just a medium that is louder and 
brighter. It lacks of the metallic sound of the stings when they are 
triggered hardly.
Also when you record the lowest level of velocity, you MUST have noise. Just 
because the piano do not play loud enought and even in the best conditions, 
with the best microphones, in the best studio, if you play a piano at an 
equivalent of 30 of velocity, and you maximize the result, you will have ... 
white noise.
When you listen all these piano's lowest level of velocity, they just sounds 
like a medium passed thru a low pass filter.

That's my advice...

On 15.03.2005, at 15:07, <nicolas@...> wrote:

>> SampleTekk is proud to present yet another fine piano available as a
>> DirectDownload.
>> That means that you buy the Piano, and then instantly get a link from
>> where you can download your samples.
>> Beats UPS and Fedex but requires a fast line....
>>
>>
>> The Steiny D is a specially designed concert grand that uses samples
>> from the Black Grand session. The sampleset has been taken down in 
>> size
>> to make it downloadable.
>> The Steiny D has 8/8/8 velocity layers, 8 samples recorded pedal up, 8
>> pedal down and 8 releasesamples per recorded note.
>> The instrument used for the Steiny D was a Steinway D Hamburg concert
>> grand.
>>
>>
> How can you say that it is sampled with 8 level of velocity!!!

I guess he can.
Did you realize that you talk to the manufacturer of those samples? If 
anybody knows the details, it is Per Larsson.

Peter Ostry

> How can you say that it is sampled with 8 level of velocity!!!
> Have you ever tried to play 8 level of different velocity with accuracy
> and
> consistancy on a piano for real?
> All these piano with 8 level of velocity are scam. they are sampled with 2
> or worse only 1 level of velocity and everything is done with Wavelabs or
> Soundforge. Some maybe have 4 REAL level of velocity but no more.
> Just listen one of these piano sample at the maximum level of velocity, like
> the Post ones, and you will see that it is just a medium that is louder and
> brighter. It lacks of the metallic sound of the stings when they are 
> triggered hardly.
> Also when you record the lowest level of velocity, you MUST have noise.
> Just because the piano do not play loud enought and even in the best
> conditions, with the best microphones, in the best studio, if you play a piano at an
> equivalent of 30 of velocity, and you maximize the result, you will have
> ...
> white noise.
> When you listen all these piano's lowest level of velocity, they just
> sounds like a medium passed thru a low pass filter.
> 
> That's my advice...
> 
>

Hold your horses!!!!!
Since you do not know how I work making these accusations is rather
much!!!

First of all, the piano was originally sampled with not 8 velocity
samples, but 16!!!! To do this, we have developed a digital recording
system that allows us to sample with this accuracy. I agree that doing
this by ear is impossible.
The velocity samples are true. That means that they have originally been
sampled at 16 different velocities. We have NOT, and I repeat NOT,
recorded less and then made more using any filtering or other method.
There are, originally 16 UNIQUE samples recorded pedal up, 16 UNIQUE
samples pedal down and 16 UNIQUE releasesamples.

SampleTekk's pianos are, to my knowledge alone in the market today of
having this many unique, true velocity samples. How other companies
solve this, I don't know, and that's up to them to answer for.

You say they we are selling some kind of scam!!!!
You should really try to learn more about how we work before you throw
something like this out in public!!!! 

Per Larsson
SampleTekk

> I guess he can.
> Did you realize that you talk to the manufacturer of those samples? If
> anybody knows the details, it is Per Larsson.
> 
> Peter Ostry

You bet we can! Just to rub it in, we have developed our recorded system
some more and our latest project (under developing) has 93(!)
samples/recorded note. 31 pedal up/31 pedal down and 31
releasesamples....

/Per

Hi,

On 15-Mar-05, at 6:07 AM, <nicolas@...> wrote:

>  How can you say that it is sampled with 8 level of velocity!!!
>  Have you ever tried to play 8 level of different velocity with 
> accuracy and
>  consistancy on a piano for real?
>  All these piano with 8 level of velocity are scam.

How can *YOU* say this?  Have you been involved in the recording 
process?  I've heard of some companies using a mechanical trigger in 
order to more accurately get different levels of velocity.  While 
sampled pianos are not exactly the same thing as playing a real one (at 
least for me), they sure beat the heck out of me dragging a grand piano 
into my living room, breaking my back, listening to my wife complain 
that there's no room for anything else, mic-ing it up (only to have 
phase issues from not knowing how to properly mic a piano), recording 
my performance 50 times (because of the 50 mistakes that I've just 
made).

>  Also when you record the lowest level of velocity, you MUST have 
> noise. Just
>  because the piano do not play loud enought and even in the best 
> conditions,
>  with the best microphones, in the best studio, if you play a piano at 
> an
>  equivalent of 30 of velocity, and you maximize the result, you will 
> have ...
>  white noise.

So, when someone records a real piano in a studio while playing softly, 
you are only going to hear noise?  I'm sure that it is only when I'm 
playing the piano that you'll hear noise but that's besides the point. 
;-)

Anyway, I don't see why you need to attack the developer here.  All you 
are doing is making generalized statements about the sampled pianos 
that you have heard and not specifically about this piano.  Some of 
your comments speak of the recording/sampling process which, I'm sure, 
you had nothing to do with.

Anyway, I just don't think that you are being very constructive here 
and are "scamming" as well.  Anyway, I think that the best *advice* 
that you or I can possibly give is to recommend that people listen to 
the demos and request more if they want to hear the maximum velocity or 
softer velocities.

Best regards,
Fernstudio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well I thought there would be some kind of reaction to my email :)

Anyway, I've a piano in front of me, and if you have one, just sit and try 
to play 16 levels of velocity! And I do not attack the developper, I just 
say somehting true!

Ok lets demonstrate this. You are sampling 88 notes, with 16 level of 
velocity, 1 min each note (plus recording, stop, failed ones etc...) let's 
say 2 min. It is a total of  1408 min. And you have sampled the pedal as 
well? Ok 2816 minutes of pure recording! That means that you have spent 46 
hours in front of this piano, woooooow!

About saying things publicaly, this is a list, and it is exactly the place 
where things like this must be discussed. Everyone can express his opinions, 
and each will have his own point of view.

16 level of velocity, manualy? Even Mulder would not beleive it :)

Per Larsson [mailto:per@...] :
>we have developed our recorded system some more 
>and our latest project (under developing) has 93(!) 
>samples/recorded note. 31 pedal up/31 pedal 
>down and 31 releasesamples....

(2007. After one week of downloading on his gigabit-broadband connection
Mr. Smith started organizing the material on his new FW RAID, while his
partner was halfway the manual of the freebie LogicPro9 which came with
the Triple G6. In 3 days they plan to be up and running. The can hardly
wait to use the 32-bit Behringer Young Chang Concert Grand sampled in
128 velocities for their new childrens' Xmas song album.)

Okay, exaggerated, but is this really how you sample guys see the
future? I guess I will bail out then. I'm already struggling with my 1
GB piano, how beautiful it may sound. I am a composer, not a storage
engineering. I need (RAM) space for a lot of other instruments too. 

If you want to help people like me, then focus on musicality.
Find a solution for the sound of the repeated note while the damper
stays up. 
Don't use a wide stereo image so close on the strings. I just sounds
plain ridiculous. Apply a little just to let the sound breathe. You
don't ask a violin player to walk to the right when playing high notes
and to the right when playing low, do you? Some sampled piano's are just
like that. They put me off big time.
Make sure that the chance that a sample is triggered twice is virtual
nill. This doesn't necessarily mean that you need so much samples. Use
the multitude of samples cleverly, with more detail in the region C2 -
C5 en velocity range 40 - 90. Not in the extremes of the performance
spectrum, they just eat RAM and disk space serving little.
This bothers me much more than having 31 releasesamples per note.
Imagine that...

Anyway, enough ranting, this is not at all to discourage you, but I hope
you and all other sample makers will keep things in perspective. Don't
forget musicality, while working on accuracy.

Cheers,
Herbert Boland

www.herbertboland.nl .:. Composer and Sound Designer .:.
www.zepmusic.com  .:. Open Songwriters Network .:.

Most hardware piano (Roland, Korg...) have 256 Mb soundbanks max (most 
around 32 Mb).
And they are used on stage by big stars, no one complains.
Piano is a percussive instrument, it should be possible to have a descent 
piano that is 'small' so it leave space for more samples in our samplers, 
and will run in memory.
I totally agree with you, there is a sample inflation and it seems that the 
bigger is the better.
But where this will end? Now you spend more time in setup up than playing 
music!

On 15.03.2005, at 17:25, Herbert Boland wrote:

> Find a solution for the sound of the repeated note while the damper
> stays up.

What about this "late-release" technique, I don't know the correct 
name. Where you put the damper on, hit a chord and release the damper 
immediately after. I love that sound and wonder if it is a matter of 
sampling or could be done in the EXS instrument...

Similar with a HiHat, opened right after the stroke.


Peter Ostry

Herbert Boland [mailto:yahoo@...] :
>Find a solution for the sound of the repeated 
>note while the damper stays up. 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean sustain pedal but the individual
key damper thingie. When you repeat a note at a moderate rate the damper
doesn't kick in, you just keep hitting an already excited string. This
gives a distinctive sound that's hard to replicate. When you do this
with midi, the note offs interfere. 

Herbert Boland

www.herbertboland.nl .:. Composer and Sound Designer .:.
www.zepmusic.com  .:. Open Songwriters Network .:.

"nicolas@..." <nicolas@...> wrote:

> Well I thought there would be some kind of reaction to my email :)
> 
> Anyway, I've a piano in front of me, and if you have one, just sit and try
> to play 16 levels of velocity! And I do not attack the developper, I just
> say somehting true!
> 
> Ok lets demonstrate this. You are sampling 88 notes, with 16 level of
> velocity, 1 min each note (plus recording, stop, failed ones etc...) let's
> say 2 min. It is a total of  1408 min. And you have sampled the pedal as
> well? Ok 2816 minutes of pure recording! That means that you have spent 46
> hours in front of this piano, woooooow!
> 
> About saying things publicaly, this is a list, and it is exactly the place
> where things like this must be discussed. Everyone can express his opinions,
> and each will have his own point of view.
> 
> 16 level of velocity, manualy? Even Mulder would not beleive it :)

A computer can control the playing of a mechanical piano through MIDI and in
other ways.  You could easily get 128 levels of velocity or whatever else
you wanted, in a repeatable way.  You¹d need an engineer to run the
recording, but no piano player.

"nicolas@..." <nicolas@...> wrote:

> Most hardware piano (Roland, Korg...) have 256 Mb soundbanks max (most
> around 32 Mb).
> And they are used on stage by big stars, no one complains.
> Piano is a percussive instrument, it should be possible to have a descent
> piano that is 'small' so it leave space for more samples in our samplers,
> and will run in memory.
> I totally agree with you, there is a sample inflation and it seems that the
> bigger is the better.
> But where this will end? Now you spend more time in setup up than playing
> music!

Maybe playing with a loud band, piano as a percussive intrument is just
fine.

But how about a nice sustained passage, with many long notes, overlapping
chords, pedal down, long fades.

Seems to me the longer the sample and the more variations in samples per
velocity, the more realism we get.

Depends how much energy you want to put into the quality of your sound.
It¹s a trade off for sure, but it¹s a personal choice.  Why be limited,
let¹s have all the options.

At 04:22 PM 3/15/2005 +0100, you wrote:

>Well I thought there would be some kind of reaction to my email :)
>
>Anyway, I've a piano in front of me, and if you have one, just sit and try
>to play 16 levels of velocity! And I do not attack the developper, I just
>say somehting true!
>
>Ok lets demonstrate this. You are sampling 88 notes, with 16 level of
>velocity, 1 min each note (plus recording, stop, failed ones etc...) let's
>say 2 min. It is a total of  1408 min. And you have sampled the pedal as
>well? Ok 2816 minutes of pure recording! That means that you have spent 46
>hours in front of this piano, woooooow!

Knowing how long the developers work on this stuff, 46 hours is a minimum, 
and they would actually be happy if it took that short of time!

>About saying things publicaly, this is a list, and it is exactly the place
>where things like this must be discussed. Everyone can express his opinions,
>and each will have his own point of view.

Then you have to use the sort of language that communicates opinion. 
Statements like "All these piano[s] with 8 level[s] of velocity are [a] 
scam" may be your opinion, but that's really not how you worded it.

It's probably better communication to add an "I think" before that, because 
guess what: you may be wrong, which you were in SampleTekk's case, and in 
PMI's case - and Alta Vista's, and others.

BTW, the CP70 in Sonik Synth 2 is my CP70 (not a CP70B, mind you) which I 
sampled with - guess what - 8 velocities. When developers say they don't 
have a life, there's a reason for it - they're sitting in front of pianos 
all day. =) Just go to NAMM one year; you'll see how socially dysfunctional 
they are because of it. =)

A good dialog that could arise out of this could be "what's the usefulness 
of 8 or more velocities? Does it really make for a better piano? Is it 
really necessary? And why or why not?"

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

I agree with alot of Garth's comments - and those extend even beyond pianos. Sample velocities has never been my concern - I do 4-8 depending on the instrument - its the variations of each note that seem most important to me. Pluck a string four times in a row - each pluck sounds slightly different - even at the same velocity.

With piano the difference is so slight that to avoid the "machine gun" efffffect they sample more velocties than most other instruments.

I haven't heard the new piano from Worra yet - but I THINK that IN MY OPINION if the White Grand and the Black Grand speak for the quality from SampleTekk - than this new one will be a winner too - I THINK. :)

--
============================
Alan Lastufka | BelaDMedia.com
Producer | Project Consultant
============================
--

> 
> 
> Well I thought there would be some kind of reaction to my email :)
> 
> Anyway, I've a piano in front of me, and if you have one, just sit and try
> to play 16 levels of velocity! And I do not attack the developper, I just
> say somehting true!
> 
> Ok lets demonstrate this. You are sampling 88 notes, with 16 level of
> velocity, 1 min each note (plus recording, stop, failed ones etc...) let's
> say 2 min. It is a total of  1408 min. And you have sampled the pedal as
> well? Ok 2816 minutes of pure recording! That means that you have spent 46
> hours in front of this piano, woooooow!
> 
> About saying things publicaly, this is a list, and it is exactly the place
> where things like this must be discussed. Everyone can express his opinions,
> and each will have his own point of view.
> 
> 16 level of velocity, manualy? Even Mulder would not beleive it :)
> 
> 

Nicholas, you have every right to express your opinion, but I don't
think that you have the right to call me and our products a scam!
Nor do I think that you have the right to call me a lier.
We have developed a way of sampling this many, and more, velocities from
a piano. It's not based on mechanical arms or computer controlled
hammers. How it works, I'm not willing to discuss here since it's
something that has been developed by us and are an important tool for us
as a company. I think that you can understand this!
If you don't believe me, well, not much I can do about that...
Just to prove it to you, you can download this rar-file. It contains the
31(!) pedalup samples from the A4 note on our ongoing project, a Yamaha
C7
www.sampletekk.com/velocity/sampletekk.rar
It's big, 40Mb, but if you unpack it, you can check the samples as much
as you like. They are all unique and come from true recordings. NOT from
recording less samples and then makes new samples out of these!

As for your description on the time, it's pretty accurate. The Steinway
D that was sampled for the Steiny D and Black Grand took about 5 days to
sample with a working day having around 14-16 hours of sampling. It's
NOT fun, I can tell you that.
We also rented the whole concert hall for this purpose.
Then after that, you have thousands of samples to edit, (by hand) to get
the starting points right.
A production of a piano of the Black Grands magnitude spans over 5-6
months and costs around $25.000-$30.000 to develop, so my friend, this
is serious business for us, not something that we do on a afternoon with
a DAT recorder and a couple of cheap microphones. This is what I do for
a living!
You can look at some pictures from the recording session and read a bit
more about how it was done at http://www.sampletekk.com/bgresource.php

I really, really think that you have every right in the world to express
your opinions on our products, or any products for that sake.
If you think that they stink, that they are the worst sounding piece of
crap you have ever heard, you are entitled to say so. I won't even argue
with that! It's personal taste.
But please understand my point. I don't think it's fair of you to call
it a scam and to imply that I'm lying or trying to keep from saying the
absolute truth, because you simply can't know that. You can think it's
unbelievable, and that's really great, because then it means that we
have achieved something. But please Nicolas, don't call me a liar.

Best
Per Larsson
SampleTekk

nicolas@... [mailto:nicolas@...] :

>Now you spend more time in setup than playing music!

Currently I'm contemplating a new computer because of long load times
because I have to switch between projects often. I didn't predict this
when I started investing in these modern large libraries. It used to be
about sound processing power, now it is all about ability to load,
stream and handle hugh amounts of sample data. 
I do simple film projects but I feel I already have to organize it the
Hans Zimmer way... Thank god for real musicians and microphones.


Herbert Boland

www.herbertboland.nl .:. Composer and Sound Designer .:.
www.zepmusic.com  .:. Open Songwriters Network .:.

Ok, you know what I'll do? I'm going to purchase your piano.

If you have spent this time and this work to sample this piano, it is worth 
the 80 USD -and even more -, and I'll have something real to compare.
I've almost every sampled piano (I buy them) including the Imperial and so 
on...also I've already sampled 3 piano (yes, but only 4 velocities and no 
pedal), I'll compare, and see.

But in the past I've been quite disapointed by the other purchases I did, 
with a Occiloscope or an FTT you can see that most (I'll not give any name) 
are doing layers with the 2 adjacent layers to double the velocity. It does 
make sense, if you say the truth, but these piano are always doing a lot of 
marketing blabla that are far from the real result. Also it creates huge 
soundbanks that are too heavy in my opinion and less efficient.

Don't you agree that there is a lot of marketing about all these piano, 
doing 2gb and that sounds so small. I've played on Steinway, Bosen, Yamaha 
etc. and I can't find even 50% of the original feeling of playing with the 
sampled piano I own.

Btw I'm not native English and I'm not sure precisely 'scam' means, maybe it 
was a bit too ... dirty? It is not in my dictionnary :) apologizes.

I'll purchase the online download version, and I'll send my comments 
privately.

> I'll purchase the online download version, and I'll send my comments
> privately.

I've purchased the Steinway, and the White JR as well.
Great job  Per, they both sounds better than the ones I've (Post, EW, 
Steinberg and more).
So you  have spent at least 46 hours in Front of this piano, and I've got it 
just for 80 USD.
And how much days in checking, cutting, programming???

You are a mad man, but it is cool to have a mad man like you :)

On 15.03.2005, at 21:59, <nicolas@...> wrote:

> Btw I'm not native English and I'm not sure precisely 'scam' means, 
> maybe it
> was a bit too ... dirty? It is not in my dictionnary...

Not dirty. It means escroquerie, fraude, imposture, triche, tromperie.
Now you can just say "oops..."


Peter Ostry

>> Btw I'm not native English and I'm not sure precisely 'scam' means, 
>> maybe it
>> was a bit too ... dirty? It is not in my dictionnary...
> 
> Not dirty. It means escroquerie, fraude, imposture, triche, tromperie.
> Now you can just say "oops..."
> 
> 
> Peter Ostry

Ooops!

> > I'll purchase the online download version, and I'll send my comments
> > privately.
> 
> I've purchased the Steinway, and the White JR as well.
> Great job  Per, they both sounds better than the ones I've (Post, EW,
> Steinberg and more).
> So you  have spent at least 46 hours in Front of this piano, and I've got
> it  just for 80 USD.
> And how much days in checking, cutting, programming???
> 
> You are a mad man, but it is cool to have a mad man like you :)


Well, the WG Jr is a different piano then the Steiny. WG Jr is a old
Malmsjo, think from the mid 20's. So you can double the time...
I guess that afterproduction on a piano of this size is about 3-4
months. 
After sampling the Steinway, I actually got an inflammation in my elbow
from hitting down notes so many times.....
See, I don't relay of any automatic editing, so I had edit every sample,
its thousands..... After completing such task I usually go away to a
friend of mine (a drummer, say no more) who lives out in the woods,
(well, he IS a drummer), and get extremely, ridiculously drunk.....

So, I'll guess I'm a madman..... but Nicco, so are you, in a positive
way! Didn't think I would say this only yesterday, but after clearing up
a couple of linguistic problems, you’re a cool guy! (...and I'm not
saying this just because you bought the pianos...)

/Per

On 16.03.2005, at 12:31, Per Larsson wrote:

> After sampling the Steinway, I actually got an inflammation in my elbow
> from hitting down notes so many times.....
> See, I don't relay of any automatic editing, so I had edit every 
> sample,
> its thousands..... After completing such task I usually go away to a
> friend of mine (a drummer, say no more) who lives out in the woods,
> (well, he IS a drummer), and get extremely, ridiculously drunk.....

Hm. I am sure you play better piano than I do (all people play better). 
When I think about those hundreds of hours, injuries - and 
additionally, how many nights I need to put a couple of your samples 
together to form a simple melody - wouldn't it be better if you play 
piano on a couple of my songs instead? That is just five hours and we 
can get drunk anyway :o)


Peter

> 
> >> Btw I'm not native English and I'm not sure precisely 'scam' means,
> >> maybe it was a bit too ... dirty? It is not in my dictionnary...
> >
> > Not dirty. It means escroquerie, fraude, imposture, triche, tromperie.
> > Now you can just say "oops..."
> >
> >
> > Peter Ostry
> 
> Ooops!
> 

Oooops accepted!  :D

/Per

Hi Par,
Thanks for your efforts.

Ummm, I'm not really in the need to buy a great piano 'today'...
but I wouldn't mind another free piano for kicks. ;)
When I looked briefly at the site it seems that there is a 'free'(?)
downloadable version.
What are the limitations on the free version?
Also, it seems that it's made for Halion(?)... 
Is there one that would work with the EXS?

(FWIW, $80 bucks is not expensive 
but I don't have it today or use pianos very often.)
Thanks.