EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

I just tried CDXtract with the hope of converting
many of my roland libraries to EXS format.  They claim to have the 
original Roland de-emphasis algorithm available in the software.  I 
just tried a Hans Zimmer guitars vol 1 disc.  conversion process 
itself went fine.  I now have the converted one right up against the 
S760.  The listening comparison is horrible.  The converted file is
considerably more dull and flat sounding, while the original is much 
more open sounding (i'm monitoring the EXS digitally into a Mackie 
D8B via an 888, the S760 is going analog into the D8B).  Also i'm 
noticing an audible click at the beginning of each keystroke right at 
the top of the sound starting - almost like a non-zero cross point 
butt splice sound.
 
the latency when playing notes from these converted files are also 
much greater than with the supplied samples or imported AKAI samples 
direct into the EXS.

HELP.  Am i missing a setting or something?  I'm a newbie to al of 
this sample library conversion stuff.  I didn't
think the conversion would be so poor.  The Roland
De-emphasis menu item was checked when i made the
conversion.  The sustain and decay times are different too.  The 
original S760 sample decays out while holding the keys down.  the EXS 
version just continuously loops without decaying.  I thought the 
translator was supposed to translate all parameters?
Any help would be great...
thanks all.
clint

At 03:32 PM 7/14/01 +0000, you wrote (edited):

>converting many of my roland libraries to EXS format. I just tried a Hans 
>Zimmer guitars vol 1 disc.  conversion process itself went fine.  I now 
>have the converted one right up against the S760.  The listening 
>comparison is horrible.  The converted file is considerably more dull and 
>flat sounding, while the original is much more open sounding (i'm 
>monitoring the EXS digitally into a Mackie D8B via an 888, the S760 is 
>going analog into the D8B).

I can vouch for the samples - they are basically correct. They didn't sound 
remarkably different here.

>Also i'm noticing an audible click at the beginning of each keystroke 
>right at the top of the sound starting - almost like a non-zero cross 
>point butt splice sound.

The EXS (and other software samplers) are much better responders to 
wavedata than the old Roland, so non-zero errant data will be heard on the 
EXS and not heard on the Roland. The solution is to put a small envelope at 
the beginning of every sample, but I know the translation engineers are 
somewhat reluctant to put that on because then percussive sounds suffer, or 
at the very least lose the opportunity to be that much "poppier".

>The sustain and decay times are different too.  The
>original S760 sample decays out while holding the keys down.  the EXS
>version just continuously loops without decaying.  I thought [it] was 
>supposed to translate all parameters?

It's difficult to translate to the EXS because the cool parameters are on 
the global level, not the Zones or Groups. (Shoot, why isn't that on the 
poll? Or was it?) So a program has to average these things, and as far as I 
know, none do.

>the latency when playing notes from these converted files are also
>much greater than with the supplied samples or imported AKAI samples
>direct into the EXS.

Can't explain that one.

>HELP.  Am i missing a setting or something?  I'm a newbie to al of
>this sample library conversion stuff.  I didn't

It's not "near-perfect" (yet).

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

>Also i'm
> noticing an audible click at the beginning of each keystroke right at
> the top of the sound starting - almost like a non-zero cross point
> butt splice sound.

On the HZ Guitar CD several samples don't start at the zero level which
produces this audible click. If you listen to the raw samples in your Roland
sampler you will hear the clicks.
I tried to adjust the attack time to remove this click but unfortunately
doing
so has some serious side effects, it slows down the attack and increase the
sense of latency. The problem with this samples is that there is a click at
the beginning (not on all samples of course) and usually up to 20 ms of
nothing before the sample really starts. And the Sample Start parameters
is set to 0. On the Roland sampler they set the attack time to 1 which
removes this click without affecting too much the natural sound
attack. But on the EXS you have to set a higher attack to get rid of this
click and it affects the natural attack of the samples.

> the latency when playing notes from these converted files are also
> much greater than with the supplied samples or imported AKAI samples
> direct into the EXS.

As I said before, the samples were recorded with up to 20ms at the
beginning and the sample start parameter is set to 0, so there is nothing
you can do to avoid this 20ms latency, moreover the attack time used
to remove the click at the beginning of the sample will increase this
sense of latency.

Bernard
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Web : http://www.cdxtract.com
Sales : sales@...
Support : support@...
*********************************

>On the HZ Guitar CD several samples don't start at the zero level which
>produces this audible click. If you listen to the raw samples in your
Roland
>sampler you will hear the clicks.
>I tried to adjust the attack time to remove this click but unfortunately
....
************
Hi all,
some CD are really Bullsh*t, Hanz Zimmer Gt ( the best guitar player of the
world...the Guitar on"Gladiator" movie  are exeptionnals ...) is one of
those.
My point of view ;o)
Igor
.

--- In exs-users@y..., clintbennett@y... wrote:
> I just tried CDXtract with the hope of converting
> many of my roland libraries to EXS format.  They claim to have the 
> original Roland de-emphasis algorithm available in the software.  I 
> just tried a Hans Zimmer guitars vol 1 disc.  conversion process 
> itself went fine.  I now have the converted one right up against 
the 
> S760.  The listening comparison is horrible.

I am guessing that many of us EXS users have made a similar 
comparison between the original and the EXS conversion (and with 
similar results). From my own experience with libraries in the 
Kurzweil, Roland and AKAI formats, the AKAI conversion seems to go 
the smoothest. This is in large part due to the fact that the AKAI 
engine itself is much simpler than the Roland or especially Kurzweil 
engines. Thus it is easier to map from AKAI to EXS without major 
compromise.

These CDs were designed to sound good on their target systems. And 
Spectrasonics, in my opinion, is without peer in producing quality 
soundware. What you are finding is merely the limits of what the 
conversion tools are capable of.

Don't get me wrong: I use both CDxtract and Translator with much 
success! There are some things that they do very well. For instance, 
I was able to convert a large number of the Roland Woodwinds, 
Strings, Brass and Orchestral percussion patches to EXS format, 
without major headache. Yes, I had to spend some time adjusting 
parameters. (For instance, loop tuning in the EXS doesn't go far 
enough to accomodate some of the Roland samples!) And yes, many of 
the EXS patches sound a bit different than the "original" patches. 
But now I have a really great library of instantly accessible sounds! 
The time spent tweaking is a fraction of what the load times would 
have been over the next few months!

The de-emphasis problem is fairly well documented. I can say honestly 
that Translator sounds slightly different than CDxtract, and that 
both sound slightly different than the native Roland de-emphasis (I 
am using an XV-5080), even though the converters claim to be 
using "authentic" or even "licensed" algorithms from Roland. But I 
have found nothing yet that was as drastically different as what you 
described. I am using a Mackie d8b as well, and I have compared my 
EXS (through a MOTU 2408 over lightpipe) to the XV-5080 using both 
analog and S/PDIF into the d8b, and the differences to me have more 
to do with the mapping of patch parameters than with the de-emphasis. 

My 0.02: The converters do, in my opinion, a pretty remarkable job of 
allowing me to load samples I bought for one synth into another. Is 
it perfect? NO. The converters work pretty well on loops, but on 
multi-sampled instruments, there are bound to be some problems.

> Also i'm noticing an audible click at the 
> beginning of each keystroke right at 
> the top of the sound starting - almost like a non-zero cross point 
> butt splice sound.

I found this click when performing Roland conversion with CDxtract 
but not with Translator. I mentioned it to the program's author (and 
he has responded in this thread). I think he is working on it. 

> the latency when playing notes from these converted files are also 
> much greater than with the supplied samples or imported AKAI
> samples direct into the EXS.

If by latency you mean the start of the sample, then as others have 
mentioned, if the EXS "factory" sounds have no latency problems it 
may just be the HZ samples themselves. It is easy enough to check 
this: click the E in the Zone edit window to bring up the sample 
editor. Adjust the [S] for the sample start point.

> HELP.  Am i missing a setting or something?  I'm a newbie to al of 
> this sample library conversion stuff.  I didn't
> think the conversion would be so poor.  

I didn't think so either. But now that I understand what works and 
what doesn't, I am much less frustrated.

My guess is that all of this will only get better as the EXS gains 
more features and the conversion tools improve their conversions. We 
are part of the process, too: without out support (i.e., $$$), there 
would be no tools at all!

Scott