EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Well, to me it's just obvious that trading sample CDs isn't legal at all.
Imagine there would be only one single person buying a CD and then he/she
would immediately copy it and spread it all over the world through the
internet (due to fast connections it's not even required to mp3 the
contents) - certainly in a few weeks all the sample CD companies would be
bankrupt.

Of course (if I'm informed correctly) you are allowed to sell or give away
your CDs, but again it's obvious to me that after this you aren't allowed to
use the material any longer by yourself.

I do however think that in these days of format converters and such it's
pretty hard to prove all that illegal trading and whatever - in the end I
guess that sample CD companies are allready having a hard time (at least the
smaller ones).
So we shouldn't start supporting things like that on this list at all as we
should really be happy for the company people being around here.

One question pops up though:
Let's assume I'm doing a remix and there's one single loop in the material
I'm getting, coming from a commercial sample CD. In order to use that single
loop in the remix, will I have to buy the complete CD just because of that?

Regards,
Sascha

--- In exs-users@y..., "Sascha Franck" <saschafranck@s...> 
wrote:

> One question pops up though:
> Let's assume I'm doing a remix and there's one single loop in 
the material
> I'm getting, coming from a commercial sample CD. In order to 
use that single
> loop in the remix, will I have to buy the complete CD just 
because of that?
> 
> Regards,
> Sascha
----

id have thought not. if youre doing a remix surely the onus is on 
the original writer/performer/recorder to have bought the sample 
legally?

andy

----- Original Message -----

From: "Sascha Franck" <saschafranck@...>

> One question pops up though:
> Let's assume I'm doing a remix and there's one single loop in the material
> I'm getting, coming from a commercial sample CD. In order to use that
single
> loop in the remix, will I have to buy the complete CD just because of
that?

We touched this in a discussion over at the Music produsers list a while
ago.

When you are finnished with a mix the record company owns the "multi track"
files as well.
These new days of HD's and software samplers stuff still means that the
record company owns the files, but nobody was able to tell if that also ment
the right to use samples that you actually cannot give away due to the
licence agrement with the sample-cd- maker.

The way I'm doing it now is that I streem all tracks from bar 1 to the end
of the song.
That doesn't give away the samples, but it gives away the way _I_ used the
samples.
I also write on the tracks sheet what samples cd's where used.

Nobody could tell me if this is the legal way to do it though...

Maybe somebody from Spectrasonic would comment on this?

--
Arvid Solvang
http://www.viagram.no/

Fernando Vicente wrote:
> Say you bought a loops CD Rom like Spectrasonics' new Backbeat.  According
> to how you see it, you could take one of the loops on it, put it on a
loops
> CD Rom that you create (actually more like compile rather than create) and
> sell that.  Definitely illegal.

I don't think that's what he meant.
I guess if I buy a CD it's perfectly OK to sell it - of course assuming I
don't use the CDs content. As that (not using the CDs content at all) is
pretty much unlikely, especially in these days where people are using
softsamplers and large HDs, I'd expect nobody to kill all the samples from
the HD before selling the CD - so yes, there may arise problems in any case.

> This past summer I bought the Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Strings library from
> Ilio.  A lot of programming went into it but, never mind the programming -
> think about just the recording of the samples.  They had to hire a string
> orchestra (some samples involve 24 violins!) and all of the musicians, not
> to mention the orchestra hall to record it in, the engineers to do the
> recording, etc.  I'm sure that it cost them thousands of dollars per day
> just to record the samples.  At a price of $999, you're getting a deal.
My
> opinion is just like if you want a Lexicon 960 or an Avalon mastering
> compressor - if you can't afford it, you don't need it.

Very good point!

But unfortunately there's the opposite as well.
I have a bunch of "Ueberschall" CDs that I didn't have to pay for (jfyi,
they are legit CDs though and they are really *mine*) and, to say the least,
the content is rather lousy. I might eventually find myself using one loop
or two in years. I even know some drummer being involved in some CD
recordings for them, and I must say, the amount of work they invested is in
no way related to the amount of money they try to charge for the CDs.
Unfortunately this is true for many "standard" loop CDs, people are just
putting *something* together.
And then, while you can preview a sample CD in good shops, there's no such
options when buying things online. A good example might be the Neil Conti CD
from Emagicsamples.com. While the RA demofiles you can listen to certainly
aren't bad, overall the CD offers rather low content. Good grooves but not
exactly much variations.
Unfortunately the same is also true for some instruments CDs.
Recently I have been looking for some horns CD and I've been listening to
"Psychic Horns" at a friends studio. What a dissapointment. All over the CD
there's not a single patch you could use for a bit longer sustained chord
(how lame is that?). What you get a lot is licks and stuff like that -
pretty much unusable if you are into arranging your own stuff. Their demo
(which I listened to as well) however sounded pretty impressive, but well,
they were using licks rather than individual sounds all the time (so
changing tonalities is no option at all). I'd almost call that cheating the
consumer.

I do agree however that sampling an orchestra really is some incredibly huge
work and that those CDs (if done properly) are well worth their money (still
cheaper than hiring even a string quartet for one single session).

After all, in the future I will try to basically only do my own samples. I
hope that in the next half year I will for example have some time to sample
some real horns in a proper studio. If I will ever succeed in doing so I
will upload the EXS patches somewhere to make them available for everybody.
Free of charge of course (but hey, don't take my word on that, I may not
find the time and/or I may get greedy all of a sudden :-).

Cheers,
Sascha

> Fernando Vicente wrote:
>> Say you bought a loops CD Rom like Spectrasonics' new Backbeat.  According
>> to how you see it, you could take one of the loops on it, put it on a
> loops
>> CD Rom that you create (actually more like compile rather than create) and
>> sell that.  Definitely illegal.
> 
> I don't think that's what he meant.
> I guess if I buy a CD it's perfectly OK to sell it - of course assuming I
> don't use the CDs content. As that (not using the CDs content at all) is
> pretty much unlikely, especially in these days where people are using
> softsamplers and large HDs, I'd expect nobody to kill all the samples from
> the HD before selling the CD - so yes, there may arise problems in any case.
> 
>> This past summer I bought the Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Strings library from
>> Ilio.  A lot of programming went into it but, never mind the programming -
>> think about just the recording of the samples.  They had to hire a string
>> orchestra (some samples involve 24 violins!) and all of the musicians, not
>> to mention the orchestra hall to record it in, the engineers to do the
>> recording, etc.  I'm sure that it cost them thousands of dollars per day
>> just to record the samples.  At a price of $999, you're getting a deal.
> My
>> opinion is just like if you want a Lexicon 960 or an Avalon mastering
>> compressor - if you can't afford it, you don't need it.
> 
> Very good point!
> 
> But unfortunately there's the opposite as well.
> I have a bunch of "Ueberschall" CDs that I didn't have to pay for (jfyi,
> they are legit CDs though and they are really *mine*) and, to say the least,
> the content is rather lousy. I might eventually find myself using one loop
> or two in years. I even know some drummer being involved in some CD
> recordings for them, and I must say, the amount of work they invested is in
> no way related to the amount of money they try to charge for the CDs.
> Unfortunately this is true for many "standard" loop CDs, people are just
> putting *something* together.
> And then, while you can preview a sample CD in good shops, there's no such
> options when buying things online. A good example might be the Neil Conti CD
> from Emagicsamples.com. While the RA demofiles you can listen to certainly
> aren't bad, overall the CD offers rather low content. Good grooves but not
> exactly much variations.
> Unfortunately the same is also true for some instruments CDs.
> Recently I have been looking for some horns CD and I've been listening to
> "Psychic Horns" at a friends studio. What a dissapointment. All over the CD
> there's not a single patch you could use for a bit longer sustained chord
> (how lame is that?). What you get a lot is licks and stuff like that -
> pretty much unusable if you are into arranging your own stuff. Their demo
> (which I listened to as well) however sounded pretty impressive, but well,
> they were using licks rather than individual sounds all the time (so
> changing tonalities is no option at all). I'd almost call that cheating the
> consumer.
> 
> I do agree however that sampling an orchestra really is some incredibly huge
> work and that those CDs (if done properly) are well worth their money (still
> cheaper than hiring even a string quartet for one single session).
> 
> After all, in the future I will try to basically only do my own samples. I
> hope that in the next half year I will for example have some time to sample
> some real horns in a proper studio. If I will ever succeed in doing so I
> will upload the EXS patches somewhere to make them available for everybody.
> Free of charge of course (but hey, don't take my word on that, I may not
> find the time and/or I may get greedy all of a sudden :-).


Hey Sascha,

Maybe we could have a group purchase of a studio and a set of horn players,
and share all the sounds together via rocket!!!!!!!!


David Tobin

Wow and Flutter music - Arranging, technology, general wellbeing.....

> Hi,

Sascha wrote:
> Fernando Vicente wrote:
>> Say you bought a loops CD Rom like Spectrasonics' new Backbeat.
According
>> to how you see it, you could take one of the loops on it, put it on a
>> loops
>> CD Rom that you create (actually more like compile rather than create)
and
>> sell that.  Definitely illegal.
>
> I don't think that's what he meant.

I know that's not what he meant.  He did, however, say that he could do what
he wants.  It was just an example that I was using.  I agree that I have
taken things a little more extremely than what yael meant but it is more to
illustrate my points.

> I guess if I buy a CD it's perfectly OK to sell it - of course assuming I
> don't use the CDs content. As that (not using the CDs content at all) is
> pretty much unlikely, especially in these days where people are using
> softsamplers and large HDs, I'd expect nobody to kill all the samples from
> the HD before selling the CD - so yes, there may arise problems in any
case.

Correct.  This is basically what the sample CD manufacturers expect as well.
It's difficult to police it.  By saying no trading or selling, it makes it
pretty black and white.  It may not suit some people though.

> snip <
> But unfortunately there's the opposite as well.
> I have a bunch of "Ueberschall" CDs that I didn't have to pay for (jfyi,
> they are legit CDs though and they are really *mine*) and, to say the
least,
> the content is rather lousy. I might eventually find myself using one loop
> or two in years. I even know some drummer being involved in some CD
> recordings for them, and I must say, the amount of work they invested is
in
> no way related to the amount of money they try to charge for the CDs.
> Unfortunately this is true for many "standard" loop CDs, people are just
> putting *something* together.

That's why we, as consumers, must be very careful when spending our money.
I pretty much only trust the sample CD Roms from Ilio and Spectrasonics as
they are pretty much excellent.  The programming and samples seem to be
first-rate always IME.  I have not found that with other manufacturers
although there are some good titles from other manufacturers.  EastWest
(www.soundsonline.com) has some very good titles as well but you really have
to be careful with what you buy .  They have many duds as well.  They
probably have the biggest selection of any company.  Maybe that's why.
BigFish and Sampleheads are similar in terms of they have some good titles
and others are not so good (IMHO).

> And then, while you can preview a sample CD in good shops, there's no such
> options when buying things online. A good example might be the Neil Conti
CD
> from Emagicsamples.com. While the RA demofiles you can listen to certainly
> aren't bad, overall the CD offers rather low content. Good grooves but not
> exactly much variations.

I agree (well, about your point, not the CD since I am unfamiliar with its
content).  Personally, if I spent some money and was unhappy, I'd be
complaining.  Either I would get my money back or another title or a heavy
discount on another title - something fair for both parties anyhow.  Many of
these companies would be reasonable if you were totally unhappy with their
product.  If I did not get some sort of reasonable offer, I would not deal
with that company again.

> Unfortunately the same is also true for some instruments CDs.
> Recently I have been looking for some horns CD and I've been listening to
> "Psychic Horns" at a friends studio. What a dissapointment. All over the
CD
> there's not a single patch you could use for a bit longer sustained chord
> (how lame is that?). What you get a lot is licks and stuff like that -
> pretty much unusable if you are into arranging your own stuff. Their demo
> (which I listened to as well) however sounded pretty impressive, but well,
> they were using licks rather than individual sounds all the time (so
> changing tonalities is no option at all). I'd almost call that cheating
the
> consumer.

I have heard that title myself and I agree with you.  Have you tried the
Quantum Leap Brass?  It is quite good IMHO.  I don't know how well it works
with the exs-24 or not.  It won't be ideal for every single situation but it
is quite useful IMHO for pop/jazz/r&b horns.  There are better libraries for
pure classical IMHO.  If you want to hold down chords for extended periods
of time, you may be disappointed in this too as the sustains are not looped.
They go for about 5 or 6 seconds each.  You need to retrigger them as a real
brass player would.

> snip <
> After all, in the future I will try to basically only do my own samples. I
> hope that in the next half year I will for example have some time to
sample
> some real horns in a proper studio. If I will ever succeed in doing so I
> will upload the EXS patches somewhere to make them available for
everybody.
> Free of charge of course (but hey, don't take my word on that, I may not
> find the time and/or I may get greedy all of a sudden :-).

I wish I had that kind of time.  I basically buy my samples as I don't have
time to sample my own.  Plus, there are so many good sets out there, why
should I reinvent the wheel?

I guess my post was more prompted because it irks me to see people who are
legitimizing their theft where I have worked very hard and saved up to buy
some of these products.  I can understand a little bit when someone is
trying it out and intend to buy or trash their copy if they don't like it.
The sad thing is that most of these people never do buy it.

Okay, I'll get off my high moral horse now.

Best regards,
Fernando

----- Original Message -----

From: <PersingEP@...>

>Arvid Solvang wrote:

>> The way I'm doing it now is that I streem all tracks from bar 1 to the
>> end of the song. That doesn't give away the samples, but it gives away
>> the way _I_ used the samples.
>> I also write on the tracks sheet what samples cd's where used. Nobody
>> could tell me if this is the legal way to do it though...
>> Maybe somebody from Spectrasonic would comment on this?
>
> This is an excellent way of solving the problem -it respects our samples,
> and allows you to deliver the project to the label. Great!

Can I quote you on that on the music producers list?

--
Arvid Solvang
http://www.viagram.no/

--- In exs-users@y..., "Arvid Solvang" <arvid@v...> wrote:
> 
> Can I quote you on that on the music producers list?
> 

How could join this list?