EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Charles Lucy wrote:
> I am experimenting with microtuning (i.e. LucyTuning) EXS samples, with
> the idea of making them publicly available as well as using them myself.
> Does anyone have any ideas on the copyright and intellectual property
> position on this?

My wild guess would be that you could supply the EXS patches in whatever
free or commercial context without the used samples.

Regards,
Sascha

Posting tunings of your own recordings or someone else's?

Your recordings no problem....someone else's recordings...definitely a 
problem.

Copyrighting your own tunings? Mmmmm....Might be tricky.... but I'm sure it's 
possible...just not as a sound recording.

-EP

In a message dated 6/10/02 6:06:06 PM, lucy@... writes:

>I am experimenting with microtuning (i.e. LucyTuning) EXS samples, with
>
>the idea of making them publicly available as well as using them myself.
>Does anyone have any ideas on the copyright and intellectual property 
>position on this?

Thanks for responses. Only the octaves have a integer number of 
semitones between them. So although I can reuse the same samples, I need 
to make a different zone for each note, to maintain the correct tuning 
intervals.
It seems that I would need to provide the samples with the mapping, so 
that the lengths, loops, and fine tuning of the reference samples, would 
be appropriate.
So it looks as though I need first to record, tweak and edit my own 
samples if I wish to post them on a site for others to use.
My current experiments are with EXS samples that I had bought on CD from 
EMagic.


Sascha Franck wrote:

>Charles Lucy wrote:
>  
>
>>I am experimenting with microtuning (i.e. LucyTuning) EXS samples, with
>>the idea of making them publicly available as well as using them myself.
>>Does anyone have any ideas on the copyright and intellectual property
>>position on this?
>>    
>>
>
>My wild guess would be that you could supply the EXS patches in whatever
>free or commercial context without the used samples.
>
>Regards,
>Sascha
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>  
>

-- 
~====================================================~
Charles Lucy - lucy@... (LucyScaleDevelopments)
------------  Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning  -------
for information on LucyTuning go to 
http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/
or Lucytuned Lullabies go to
http://www.lucytune.com or http://www.lucytune.co.uk  or http://www.lullabies.co.uk

> Posting tunings of your own recordings or someone else's?
> 
> Your recordings no problem....someone else's recordings...definitely a
> problem.
> 
> Copyrighting your own tunings? Mmmmm....Might be tricky.... but I'm sure it's
> possible...just not as a sound recording.

I disagree with this EP. I've never heard it possible to copyright a
"tuning." That's like copyrighting a chord progression. It's not allowed.
Anyone can use a chord progression or foreign tuning system. It's a defined
melody that can be protected.

> Posting tunings of your own recordings or someone else's?

Of course, posting someone else's copywritten audio files is strictly off
limits. Perhaps that's what Eric (EP) was stating. -Jer

<HELP@...> wrote:

>> Posting tunings of your own recordings or someone else's?

>Of course, posting someone else's copywritten audio files is strictly off
>limits. Perhaps that's what Eric (EP) was stating.

Ahem ;-) 

In most circumstances that would be "copyrighted" I suspect -- 
copyright being concerned with the right to copy.

[twirls moustache for a few seconds] 

But, on the other hand,  when it involves audio files and your 
CD burner it does involve "writing copies".

Hmm ...  a conundrum ...

Regards,
M

Your right Jer....it wouldn't hold up as a sound recording copyright, or a 
publishing copyright. I was speculating that there might be another kind of 
copyright or patent that would cover something unique like a special tuning 
method or system, but it would be a long shot most likely.

Still, I've seen stranger things get passed in Washington. There's something 
called a "Soundmark", which is rarely used, but pretty weird. A Soundmark is 
kind of like the strange legal offspring of a sound recording copyright and a 
trademark It's what is normally used to protect an audio logo (like the NBC 
chimes for example)...however, in recent years, Roland has used Soundmarks to 
protect the actual sounds of an 808 and Harley Davidson used soundmarks to 
"patent" the actual revving sound of their engines. It's definitely the most 
bizarre form of legal protection for sounds I've ever heard of. It doesn't 
make a lot of common sense, but it is real and has been proven in court. 
Harley Davidson took another motorcycle company to court, suing them for 
"Soundmark infringement" because the company's engines sounded too similar to 
Harleys. AND HARLEY WON!! Amazing.....

But back to the topic....yes I was just warning about posting the audio files 
without permission, as this is clearly illegal.

Best,

EP

In a message dated 6/10/02 10:13:22 PM, HELP@... writes:

>> Posting tunings of your own recordings or someone else's?
>> 
>> Your recordings no problem....someone else's recordings...definitely
>a
>> problem.
>> 
>> Copyrighting your own tunings? Mmmmm....Might be tricky.... but I'm sure
>it's
>> possible...just not as a sound recording.
>
>I disagree with this EP. I've never heard it possible to copyright a
>"tuning." That's like copyrighting a chord progression. It's not allowed.
>Anyone can use a chord progression or foreign tuning system. It's a defined
>melody that can be protected.
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
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>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:10:27 -0500
>Subject: Re: [exs] Copyright and I.P. position on retuned samples - ideas
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As far as the tuning system is concerned, I own the UK patent and all 
copyrights (since 1986), so no problem there.
My question was more about the position on retuned samples, and the 
possibility of producing zones with samples without falling foul of 
someone else's rights. Is there a way to make generic zones where the 
sample selection and positions can universal or defaulted?

Apologies to anyone who thinks that this seems to be off-topic.

PersingEP@... wrote:

>Your right Jer....it wouldn't hold up as a sound recording copyright, or a 
>publishing copyright. I was speculating that there might be another kind of 
>copyright or patent that would cover something unique like a special tuning 
>method or system, but it would be a long shot most likely.
>
>
>  
>
~====================================================~
Charles Lucy - lucy@... (LucyScaleDevelopments)
------------  Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning  -------
for information on LucyTuning go to 
http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/
or Lucytuned Lullabies go to
http://www.lucytune.com or http://www.lucytune.co.uk  or http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Charles Lucy wrote:
> Is there a way to make generic zones where the
> sample selection and positions can universal or defaulted?

Unfortunately not with the EXS. Once you load another sample almost all zone
settings (including tuning) are lost :-(
If that was what you meant.

Sascha

Exactly what I meant. (despite the typo) Thanks Sascha.

Sascha Franck wrote:

>Charles Lucy wrote:
>  
>
>>Is there a way to make generic zones where the
>>sample selection and positions can universal or defaulted?
>>    
>>
>
>Unfortunately not with the EXS. Once you load another sample almost all zone
>settings (including tuning) are lost :-(
>If that was what you meant.
>
>Sascha
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>  
>

-- 
~====================================================~
Charles Lucy - lucy@... (LucyScaleDevelopments)
------------  Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning  -------
for information on LucyTuning go to 
http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/
or Lucytuned Lullabies go to
http://www.lucytune.com or http://www.lucytune.co.uk  or http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Interesting trivia, EP, thanks! -Jer

> Still, I've seen stranger things get passed in Washington. There's something
> called a "Soundmark", which is rarely used, but pretty weird. A Soundmark is
> kind of like the strange legal offspring of a sound recording copyright and a
> trademark It's what is normally used to protect an audio logo (like the NBC
> chimes for example)...however, in recent years, Roland has used Soundmarks to
> protect the actual sounds of an 808 and Harley Davidson used soundmarks to
> "patent" the actual revving sound of their engines. It's definitely the most
> bizarre form of legal protection for sounds I've ever heard of. It doesn't
> make a lot of common sense, but it is real and has been proven in court.
> Harley Davidson took another motorcycle company to court, suing them for
> "Soundmark infringement" because the company's engines sounded too similar to
> Harleys. AND HARLEY WON!! Amazing.....
> 
> But back to the topic....yes I was just warning about posting the audio files
> without permission, as this is clearly illegal.

Is it possible via a transformer to change the incoming midi signal from an
expression pedal or other controller to the correct controller information
to operate the EXS24 filter?
Phil Buckle.

Wow, I'm amazed you can own a patent on a tuning in the UK. I wonder if that
would stand up in court in the US... Jer

--- In exs-users@y..., <HELP@M...> wrote:
> Wow, I'm amazed you can own a patent on a tuning in the UK. I 
wonder if that
> would stand up in court in the US... Jer

yeah, for every flat vocalist in our top 40 sony gets 0.0435 pence.

--- Phil Buckle <pbuckle@...> wrote:
> Is it possible via a transformer to change the
> incoming midi signal from an
> expression pedal or other controller to the correct
> controller information
> to operate the EXS24 filter?
> Phil Buckle.
> 
> 
No problems,insert transformer in incoming(physical
input>transformer>...) midi path and do what you
want.You can also insert "Cable Switcher"-to switch on
and off Your new function(sorry my English!).
Eddy.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

> yeah, for every flat vocalist in our top 40 sony gets 0.0435 pence.

;) LOL

Thoughts from the mind of Phil Buckle, 11-06-2002:

>Is it possible via a transformer to change the incoming midi signal from an
>expression pedal or other controller to the correct controller information
>to operate the EXS24 filter?

On your Clicks and Ports layer in the environment, you have a 
Physical Input object that's connected to a "to Sequencer" object (or 
to the silly default Logic patches if you never changed that).

Create a new Transformer and a Monitor.  Cable as follows:
     PhysInput "SUM" outlet -> Monitor -> Transformer
The PhysIn will now no longer be connected to "to Seq" (or to the 
default patches)

Option-click (Alt on PC?) the transformers output, and you'll see a 
list of possible destinations pop up.  Pick the EXS Audio Instrument. 
(i.e. this is the way to create cables between environment layers) 
Cable the 2nd outlet of the transformer to the "to Seq" object (or 
wherever the PhysIn was originally cabled).

Move your expression pedal or controller and watch the Monitor: take 
note of which controller enters the program.  Let's suppose for now 
it's CC11.

Now figure out which CC you need to control the EXS.  Open the EXS, 
switch to control mode, and start counting parameters from the top. 
1st one is CC64, next one is CC65, etc.  Let's suppose you want to 
control CC89 (Filter Cutoff).
[Alternate method: connect a Monitor to the Audio Instrument, move 
the Cutoff knob: you'll see "F 25" events appear (fader events).  Now 
add 64 to it: 64+25 = 89, so you want CC89]

Back to the Click & Ports layer.  Double-click the Transformer to 
open its window.  Set the top popup to "Condition Splitter".

Set the Conditions part to:
Status: All
Cha: All
-1-: = 11
-2-: All

Set the Operations part to:
Status: Thru
Cha: Thru
-1-: Fix 89
-2- Thru

Done.

Now all incoming data matching the Conditions (i.e. CC11) will be 
transformed into CC89 (Operations) and sent out the top outlet (= to 
the EXS).  Non-matching data (anything but CC11) will leave the 
second outlet (i.e. wherever all data originally was sent).

NOTE: each slot of an Audio Object only 'gets' 16 controllers.  I.e. 
as soon as you insert e.g. a Reverb in the 1st FX insert, the EXS 
will only receive CC64-CC79 and your CC89 will go to the Reverb 
instead.
To avoid this, just leave the 1st FX-insert unused and insert the 
Reverb in the 2nd Insert (insert it in the 1st slot so that the 2nd 
becomes available; then insert it in the 2nd and remove it from the 
1st).

Sounds awfully complicated probably, but it should really only take a 
few minutes to set this up.

If you want you can insert a Cable Switcher before the Transformer, 
which you use as a Bypass (you'll figure this one out for yourself 
:-).  Etc.  The possibilities are endless...


-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

on 12/6/02 5:59 PM, Hendrik Jan Veenstra at h@... wrote:

> Thoughts from the mind of Phil Buckle, 11-06-2002:
> 
>> Is it possible via a transformer to change the incoming midi signal from an
>> expression pedal or other controller to the correct controller information
>> to operate the EXS24 filter?
> 
> On your Clicks and Ports layer in the environment, you have a
> Physical Input object that's connected to a "to Sequencer" object (or
> to the silly default Logic patches if you never changed that).
> 
> Create a new Transformer and a Monitor.  Cable as follows:
> PhysInput "SUM" outlet -> Monitor -> Transformer
> The PhysIn will now no longer be connected to "to Seq" (or to the
> default patches)
> 
> Option-click (Alt on PC?) the transformers output, and you'll see a
> list of possible destinations pop up.  Pick the EXS Audio Instrument.
> (i.e. this is the way to create cables between environment layers)
> Cable the 2nd outlet of the transformer to the "to Seq" object (or
> wherever the PhysIn was originally cabled).
> 
> Move your expression pedal or controller and watch the Monitor: take
> note of which controller enters the program.  Let's suppose for now
> it's CC11.
> 
> Now figure out which CC you need to control the EXS.  Open the EXS,
> switch to control mode, and start counting parameters from the top.
> 1st one is CC64, next one is CC65, etc.  Let's suppose you want to
> control CC89 (Filter Cutoff).
> [Alternate method: connect a Monitor to the Audio Instrument, move
> the Cutoff knob: you'll see "F 25" events appear (fader events).  Now
> add 64 to it: 64+25 = 89, so you want CC89]
> 
> Back to the Click & Ports layer.  Double-click the Transformer to
> open its window.  Set the top popup to "Condition Splitter".
> 
> Set the Conditions part to:
> Status: All
> Cha: All
> -1-: = 11
> -2-: All
> 
> Set the Operations part to:
> Status: Thru
> Cha: Thru
> -1-: Fix 89
> -2- Thru
> 
> Done.
> 
> Now all incoming data matching the Conditions (i.e. CC11) will be
> transformed into CC89 (Operations) and sent out the top outlet (= to
> the EXS).  Non-matching data (anything but CC11) will leave the
> second outlet (i.e. wherever all data originally was sent).
> 
> NOTE: each slot of an Audio Object only 'gets' 16 controllers.  I.e.
> as soon as you insert e.g. a Reverb in the 1st FX insert, the EXS
> will only receive CC64-CC79 and your CC89 will go to the Reverb
> instead.
> To avoid this, just leave the 1st FX-insert unused and insert the
> Reverb in the 2nd Insert (insert it in the 1st slot so that the 2nd
> becomes available; then insert it in the 2nd and remove it from the
> 1st).
> 
> Sounds awfully complicated probably, but it should really only take a
> few minutes to set this up.
> 
> If you want you can insert a Cable Switcher before the Transformer,
> which you use as a Bypass (you'll figure this one out for yourself
> :-).  Etc.  The possibilities are endless...
> 
Thank you so much for this detailed reply. This is a very helpful list full
of very helpful people. Thanks for your time and effort.
Phil Buckle.

--- In exs-users@y..., Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@k...> wrote:

> > NOTE: each slot of an Audio Object only 'gets' 16 controllers.  
I.e. 
> as soon as you insert e.g. a Reverb in the 1st FX insert, the EXS 
> will only receive CC64-CC79 and your CC89 will go to the Reverb 
> instead.


Is this still the case with Logic 5?

I had a chance to play the steinberg Grand the other day. The response of 
it is incredible, the attack portion doesn't feel sampled at all, totally 
natural. When you play soft, it sounds soft, and when you play hard, you 
hear a hard attack, and everything in between. The dynamic range of the 
thing is unbelievable! Without any sample switching that I could hear. And 
I thought I was perceiving the sympathetic resonance part of it too. All of 
these things made it extremely inviting to play, especially compared to the 
PC2 beside it, which felt plastic and fake compared to it.

However, to my ears the character of the samples have problems, especially 
in the two octaves below middle C. The D below middle C is the worst 
offender, the tone of it is terrible, very nasally, some overtone ringing 
way too loud. When I was chording in this range it sounded very murky and 
thick, not rich and clean like the PC2.

Granted, I was only able to hear the 256 meg(ram) setting because they 
didn't have the 1 gig of ram necessary to hear the full sound. I did hear a 
bit of the full sound, and it seemed to be a bit better, but I'm not sure 
how much...

I wonder if they are planning to upgrade the samples...

Just thought I'd share. Darcy

Thoughts from the mind of gordonmurrison, 13-06-2002:

>--- In exs-users@y..., Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@k...> wrote:
>
>>  > NOTE: each slot of an Audio Object only 'gets' 16 controllers. 
>I.e.
>>  as soon as you insert e.g. a Reverb in the 1st FX insert, the EXS
>>  will only receive CC64-CC79 and your CC89 will go to the Reverb
>  > instead.
>
>Is this still the case with Logic 5?

Yes, if you're using Midi CCs it is.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

This is some of the best, most progressive, intriuging conversation I have 
seen since I have been a member! THIS NERD IS EXCITED!

I will copy this topic to my attorneys!
Thankyou-JMack

Hilarious

> Hilarious

Without quotes from the original message you are responding to, it's
impossible to know what is "hilarious." Wish I could appreciate your points,
but I need the relevant quoted material included in your post so I know what
you're talking about... Jer

I purchased "The Grand" and it crshes my computer evrytime I try to 
instigate the plug in, if anyone has any ideas it would be greatly 
appreciated.
thanks
Alex G

jddymackbn@... did that hunt and peck thing, resulting in the following:

> Hilarious
> 

I thought that the other point was even more outrageous

Bob

-- 

The restaurant of the brand-new Ritz Carlton hotel in downtown New York City
employs what it believes is the world's first water steward, to recommend
which bottled waters from its collection go best with which fancy dishes.

Bring on the locusts................

The rumor appears to be false. The following was my response to an original
email received from Emagic in Germany... They insist they have no plans to
drop VST support.

> Hello,
> 
> there are absolutely no plans like that. The VST interface has become a
> standard in the sequencing technology and will of course still be
> implemented in Logic Audio.

What a relief! I am sorry I sounded so rash. There are many respectable
people who work at a top USA distributor that somehow fell under this
impression and convinced me it was true. I am pleased to hear it was a hoax

-Jer

On 6/17/02 11:56 AM, "HELP@..." <HELP@...>
wrote:

> The rumor appears to be false. The following was my response to an original
> email received from Emagic in Germany... They insist they have no plans to
> drop VST support.
> 
>> > Hello,
>> > 
>> > there are absolutely no plans like that. The VST interface has become a
>> > standard in the sequencing technology and will of course still be
>> > implemented in Logic Audio.
> 
> What a relief! I am sorry I sounded so rash. There are many respectable
> people who work at a top USA distributor that somehow fell under this
> impression and convinced me it was true. I am pleased to hear it was a hoax
> 
> -Jer

You didn¹t sound rash ­ the initial Œrumor¹ was due to comments by E-Magic
themselves! I¹m glad they¹ve changed their mind...

Malcolm

-----------------
Malcolm Payne Music
NYC
http://www.malcolmpayne.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> You didn¹t sound rash ­ the initial Œrumor¹ was due to comments by E-Magic
> themselves! I¹m glad they¹ve changed their mind...

You should have heard my original comments. You might then understand the
true meaning of rash! I omitted my original complaint from what I posted. It
was in very strong terms.